#10% of people just making general posts about being LGBT+ and slapping every label they can onto it

[afooldyedinfolly]

Idk why this rubs me the wrong way so much but as someone who is abrosexual (I say grey bi as a massive oversimplification) it really does rub me the wrong way when I see the abrosexual flag in posts listing asexual identities because like. And I’m saying this as someone who is, on occasion, asexual due to said abrosexuality...being abrosexual is not inherently ace thing. The term aceflux is literally right there. It’d be like listing a bunch of transmasc labels and putting the genderfluid flag like...yeah you definitely CAN be genderfluid and transmasc but being genderfluid isn’t inherently a transmasc identity, ya dig? idk it’s real disheartening when trying to find posts about abrosexuality in the abrosexual tag is like. It’s not the same as when people tag posts solely about asexuality as aromanticism bc like 99% of the posts in question do actually list abrosexuality in some extremely minor fashion. But the posts aren’t about abrosexuality.

[representativecharacters]

Characters: Castiel, Dean Winchester

From: Supernatural

Representation: mlm (*see “issues” section), abuse survivor (Dean) 

Their Importance: Dean and Cas are two characters that many in fandom viewed as LGBTQIA+, with the common belief being that Dean Winchester is bisexual. 

There’s a lot about Supernatural and Destiel, and Dean in general, which I’ll go over in the “issues” section, but I think many people in fandom didn’t expect for the show to actually go anywhere with them - until 15x18, when Cas confesses his love to Dean. It’s riddled with issues, yes, but just speaking as a bi girl who’s been watching Supernatural for a decade now, watching Cas confess his love for Dean was just so incredibly validating. It validated that I - and other fans - weren’t delusional when looking for representation from Cas (and Dean). Cas is a wonderful character and gave a new life to the show, and has been a fixture of the show for 10 years. While like with every character he has his ups and downs, he is a kind, loving character, and the only main character who actually survives the show. Despite the issues on the show, knowing that Cas is canonically LGBT+ is something that’s comforting and validating to me, and continues to be so even as Supernatural kind of trainwrecks around everything else. 

For myself, watching the show, I saw a lot of myself and my journey in Dean. Watching him grow and develop as a character, and try to experience happiness and find comfort in his found family was wonderful for me to see. I started this show when I was a young closeted kid, and I clung to Dean in a way that I didn’t fully understand until years later. I didn’t actually expect him to be explicitly mlm in the show, and for the most part, that didn’t happen - until the Spanish dub. There, we see the romantic reciprocation to Cas, and that’s something that is real and cannot be taken away. In fact, although it was said that it was a “rogue” translator, the episode will not be redubbed, so it is canon in a version of the show. Despite the fact that he didn’t get canonized in a way I expected or would have ever hoped, it still does give me some joy to know that he is canonically LGBT+ (and in my opinion, bi, although there is no actual label given to Dean). Even if it’s not in the version of the show I watched, I can go back and watch the Spanish dub of the episode and see that representation happen onscreen, and that means something to me. 

Issues: The issues list for this show is a mile long, so I’ve split it up into sections and put most of it under a read more:

Dean + Canon Rep: Trying to wade through if Dean is actually canonically LGBTQ+ was....a struggle, to say the least, and I almost didn’t put him into this submission. If you watch the show in English, Dean never once actually reciprocates feelings for Cas, states that he’s into men, or is even confirmed to be in a relationship with other men. Although for many, it is implied, the average audience member may not see Dean as canonically LGBTQ+. However, in the Spanish dub of the show, when Castiel confesses his love to Dean (which is an explicit romantic “I love you”), Dean says “y yo a ti”, which is a reciprocation of Cas’s romantic confession. This post is very long as it is, so I want to link to @destielintheimpala’s timeline of events that occurred for Supernatural and I think it best lays out all the issues about 15x18-20, why it’s been so difficult trying to figure out Dean’s sexuality in canon, why fandom is upset, and can clear up any misinformation. This situation also goes into queerbaiting quite a bit (something Supernatural is infamously known for), which you can read in this article from @thecoolestfreakyouknow. 

Reading Dean as a queer character as well - having a character who is queer (or queercoded) and an abuse survivor and then immediately killing him off is also a huge problem. As mentioned in the link above, Jensen Ackles himself felt uneasy about Dean’s ending, and many Dean fans felt the same way. To have a character suffer through abuse and traumas for 15 seasons, imply or straight out have him be LGBT+ (depending on the canon), and then immediately killing him off in the finale is needless to say, an odd choice. 

Also, with Dean being an abuse survivor - his father, John Winchester, is commonly shown to be neglectful throughout the show, and Dean has to raise his younger brother Sam by himself most times. He expresses trauma from the experiences he’s had growing up with their father and being forced to hunt at a young age. However, the show weirdly seems to flip flop on their portrayal of John, despite also specifically stating that what he put his children through was child abuse. They have Sam telling John that he did the best he could, they have characters excusing away John’s actions, etc. - it was like the writers themselves couldn’t figure out if they wanted John to have been an abusive parent or not. The show ends with John in Heaven with Mary - thus absolving John of his actions and putting him in the same Heaven with the children he abused. 

Castiel: Cas confesses his love for Dean in 15x18, but gets dragged away to a void called “The Empty” immediately afterwards, where he’s meant to be suffering for all of eternity. Cas does get out of The Empty, and even helps to rebuild Heaven - he’s actually one of the few characters to survive the finale - but he never appears onscreen again after 15x18, so fans’ last image of him is getting dragged away to The Empty. Dean never has a follow-up conversation, and there was only one line referencing Cas’s fate, so many fans believed he was still in The Empty suffering.

As the timeline linked above shows, the situation around Destiel is an odd one - the Spanish dub, cast’s overall silence, the lack of Misha Collins in the finale all led fans to believe that something was switched around last minute in terms of Dean’s sexuality and Destiel as a general ship. Obviously, this is speculation unless someone from the show explicitly comes out and says that fans are correct, but it’s included in the issues section because - regardless of it it turns out to be true or not - it’s such a big part of the issues currently surrounding Supernatural and canon representation. In any case, however, Castiel’s confession in 15x18 gave fans hope where they may not have had hope before, and then it was unceremoniously dropped with no real follow up - from a writing standpoint, it isn’t good writing to confirm a major character as queer via a love confession and then never go back to that plot point. While I’m happy that Cas is canonically queer and I’m not trying to say that I would rather not have more representation, I do look back on the show and wonder, with the story that made it to screen, what the actual point of writing that in was. 

As mentioned before, Castiel was a main character on the show for 10 years - while I’m glad that his character survives the series, to not have him show up in the final two episodes (particularly the finale, and especially after canonically making him LGBTQ+) felt like a slap in the face to both the character and the audience who loved him. 

Miscellaneous treatment of characters: In general, Supernatural has many problems in its treatment of female, characters of color, and LGBTQ+ characters. Alongside being incredibly underrepresented in the show, if they do show up, they are commonly tortured, treated poorly, and/or killed off (if not all of the above). Even thinking about their recurring characters who are also representative - Kevin, their only recurring Asian character, is killed off and appears as a ghost multiple times, Charlie, who is a lesbian, gets killed off and replaced in the show with an Alternate Universe version of herself, Eileen, a Deaf woman, gets killed off and then is brought back and is implied to survive the show, but like Cas, never actually shows up in the final two episodes even though she’s Sam’s girlfriend. I can think of very few minority characters in the show in general, much less those who got any type of happy ending. 

[btsandvmin]

u really think vm is real? iv been shipping vm(romantically) for more then 2 years now not only vm i have shipped every ship in maknae line and tbh there was not even a single day when i thought vm can be real(also bcoz i dont wanna get my hopes high)i mean i have seen ur list of things which makes u think vm is real but other ships have those too they have stronger evidence then us viminers i am also open minded but i really cant see anything btw vm i jst ship them bcoz of their special bond

Thank you for the ask, it’s not a simple ask, but I tried my best to answer it. Sorry if it got a bit long.

First of all I think the list you mention is my “10 Reasons to ship Vmin”, which is not a list of proof for Vmin being real, but rather of reasons to why you can ship them romantically. Something people can do no matter if they are real or not, and which I personally think Vmin have enough chemistry for. I just don’t personally understand why Vmin’s moments would be so much more “just friends” compared to moments between other ships, so I made that post to show that there are moments that make Vmin ship-worthy as well. That being said, if you don’t see any possible romantic or sexual spark between Jimin and Taehyung and just like their bond there is nothing wrong with that. I am not here to make people believe in Vmin.

So, do I really think Vmin is real?

A short answer to this question is no, I do not believe that Vmin is real, as in that I believe they are in a relationship. But I do think there is a possibility that they are. I know Vmin love each other, but I don’t claim to know how. As an outsider that is impossible for me or anyone else to know unless they state it clearly themselves. Something they would likely never do even if they are in a relationship because of their situation and homophobic culture.

The most likely thing is that no ship is real. Just imagine what a risk it would be to themselves and their brand. There might be attraction, but I think it would take a lot for that to be turned into action and even more for it to turn into a relationship in the sense how most of us perceive the word. Personally I think being in a relationship that you would have to hide like that, and just not being straight in the first place would come with a lot of hurt and stress. In that way it would maybe be better if no ship was real. I don’t know, so basically I just try to stay grounded because there are many possibilities and too many unknown factors for me to come to a firm conclusion.

The same goes for Ji/kook and Tae/kook or any other ship, within our outside of the group, straight or non-straight. They could be real, but I don’t know. However I think some ships have potential to be real, and they aren’t equally likely based on what I can observe and my own interpretations. But interpretations aren’t something you can trust to 100% either. Basically, completely believing a ship is real is in my own opinion not something you should do when there is no real “proof”.

I would use the same logic for their sexualities as well, I don’t know so I won’t say anything for certain until they tell us themselves (which is also a bit difficult since it will always be much harder to state not being straight). However I won’t assume they are straight either, I will of course collect info and base my own guesses on what I observe. For example, I think it’s very likely that not all members are straight, especially considering how BTS and Big Hit show a lot of lgbt+ support despite being from Korea (if any group might have their members come out as non-straight it might be BTS). Personally, I think Taehyung and JK has given me the most reason to think they are not straight, while I think Namjoon is at the very least attracted to women. But I could be wrong since it’s just based in my own views and guesses. What I try to do is to keep an open mind, and this goes for most topics. These are real human beings that I don’t know or interact with personally, and people are complex. There could be a million things I miss, either because they don’t want me to see it or because I simply fail to notice. There are just too many missing pieces to come to a definitive conclusion.

And that brings me to the “proof” or “evidence” that shippers tend to talk about. Frankly, I think the fact that you say that two other ships have more evidence than Vmin says a lot. Because if both Ji/kook and Tae/kook has “proof”, that means that unless both are real, that at least some of those things that people see as proof are simply misinterpretations. This goes for every single thing that shippers bring up. There can be a hundred of reasons behind the things they see and find strange that aren’t because two people are romantically or sexually involved. We also assume that if a ship is “real” that that means they are romantically involved, because that is our ideal scenario that we want to see. Even if two or more members are more than friends, they could be friends with benefits, aromantic, asexual etc. there are a lot of different types of relationships that could be the truth.

I’ve been in other fandoms, and there is for example a Japanese idol group that I love and have followed for a really long time. Members of this groups has admitted to kissing while drunk and basically shipping their own members. So even seeing two members kiss could be for other reasons than them being in a romantic relationship. Just think of how many groups there are and how many ships people analyze and believe is real, how high are the odds that all of them really are? Not that high. People see what they want to see, and that will always interfere with a person’s judgement.

That being said, I do think Vmin could be real, based on things I have seen and interpreted myself. That doesn’t automatically erase the possibility of another ship being real though, and I have said before that I personally think that if any ship would be real one of the maknae line pairs would be the most likely. It’s just me personally that weigh my own reasons based on what I have seen that makes me reach the conclusion that Vmin makes the most sense. This is also partially tainted by my own bias, as that is something no shipper can escape. Again, people see what they want to see, and it can be hard to accept things that goes against your own beliefs.

What I don’t agree with is that Tae/kook and Ji/kook has more “evidence”. I don’t like calling it that, but hints or clues isn’t really right either. People have analyzed these ships more, but just because something is popular and get talked about a lot that doesn’t mean it’s the most likely. Vmin has always been a step behind because of their platonic label and that means that people already since years back has gotten it ingrained that they are only platonic. But is there really that much of a difference between the ships? Most of the things that you see in shipping videos all the members of Bangtan do. Sleep together, slap butts, hold hands, hug, say they love each other etc. etc. the list goes on. Using these things as evidence by saying “it just feels different between them” is not evidence to me, this goes for Vmin as well.

These things are too difficult to interpret to use as any type of hard evidence, especially since you see the members do most of these things with others as well. But even if it is exclusive it doesn’t have to mean romantic love or sexual attraction. Heart eyes and jealousy are in my opinion the worst examples of these things because the looks could literally mean anything. Take for example Vmin holding hands, they do this a lot, and unprompted simply because they seem to want to. It makes me squeal to see it, and I love it and think it’s proof of their close bond and love for each other. But I would not say it proves that they are in a relationship together. It could be 100% platonic. It can be a point to make me think it’s more likely but in the end it’s just one thing that might make me lean more in that direction.

So, besides my preference and bias towards Vmin, why do I then think Vmin is more likely compared to other ships? Well, in the only way I can, which is based on my own observations. Which are in turn also dyed by my own preexisting beliefs in how relationships look like and work, which could be completely incorrect since I don’t know how the members of BTS would think about and look at these topics themselves. Especially since their situation is rather extreme and they come from a different culture.

From what I see Vmin still share hotel rooms at least sometimes, they have slipped up before in various ways “Jimin and friends” trying to correct themselves or play it off as a joke and in general seem to be rather careful themselves with how they speak about and too each other. This goes for how the other members talk about them as well. I’ve mentioned Namjoon talking about Vmin “being great friends” a lot, and for me I just think the context of how and when he says these things seems a bit odd at times. I think the fact that everyone keeps saying how Vmin are the closest, how they call each other soulmates and a lot of other examples that come from the members themselves make it less likely for other ships to be real. Because these are things that Vmin doesn’t have to do, but they do them because they want to. I’ve talked about their neediness and how it seems they can’t be apart for too long and other things that could be platonic, but still kind of makes other ships less likely in my own mind. For me the way Vmin behave with each other simply makes me more inclined to think they could potentially be real compared to other ships in the group. I have seen theories for all ships, and I think some are really interesting, but nothing I have seen for any ship has been enough to convince me that it’s real or to make me believe in them more than in Vmin. I have seen things about Vmin that are also weird and interesting to analyze, mostly on my own because as we know there aren’t that many Vmin analysis out there. But the things I have seen still makes me raise my eyebrows sometimes. But I know I could be wrong.

To summarize I think a lot of proof and evidence that people talk about are overrated and often very misleading because how it’s presented. I think that it’s dangerous to stay too focused on only one possibility and be completely certain that what you think is the only answer. I know that Vmin has been underrated and lack the same type of focused investigating that other ships have been subjugated to. In the end all I can really do is take in the things I see and weigh them against each other to come up to likely scenarios in my head and to me Vmin being in a relationship could make sense.

I write my own analysis and share them, but in the end these are just my views that I share with you. Every person could think and see different things and we don’t know the truth, so all I really do is give different possible explanations. I also think Vmin could use more analysis to balance against the other ships. Though the fact that there are so many weird things to find with multiple pairs in itself seems to indicate that they are all less likely to be real.

Thanks for the ask, and sorry for the long and complicated reply (I feel like I might come off as a bit pretentious). But I think this fandom could do well with being a little less black and white. Either way, I love Vmin’s bond no matter what kind of love they have for each other, and I will keep on writing analysis. For fun, and because sometimes there really are things that I think are worth looking into. Thank you again, this was an interesting question to try and answer.