#.... they're strike two for me on 'don't get attached to real people's real relationships'

[ruby-red-inky-blue]

Full adult Murph, leaning out the window, putting a milano on the window sill and going “you stay away from my wife!”

[bonesandthebees]

Alright let's see if I can still analyse stuff in a coherent manner.

So the first thing that strikes me is Wilbur's questioning of himself about why he's even bothering to keep up the rule of not letting anyone see his face. Everything is adding up slowly but surely to Wilbur possibly going 'fuck it, I don't care anymore' and showing Tommy his face (not his eyes, I don't think he's at the 'the curse is a lie' stage) but after what happens later in this chapter, it is 100% a possiblity.

On his side of their dynamic, Wilbur is almost completely dependent on Tommy. This chapter is the most amount of time that he has spent apart from Tommy and he is an absolute mess because of it which is understandable. Tommy is the only real attachment that Wilbur's had since he was a child and they care about each other when really they should be at each other's throats. Wilbur is friendly with rocketduo yes but all of his interactions with them also have Tommy there as a buffer. Since leaving the palace, Tommy has been the one constant and that is definitely a healthy relationship to have (no, no its not but we move on regardless).

On Tommy's side, he has always had other people to fall back on. Phil and Techno obviously care very much for Tommy and he still talks to them when he's not around Wilbur. While his relationship with Tubbo has fallen apart over Wilbur, Ranboo and Aimsey both don't seem to hold any sort of ill will towards either of them. They just don't talk to them because they're friends with Tubbo; Ranboo doesn't have the spine to go and talk to them even if he did want to and Aimsey is too nice to do it somewhat regularly. I think that their appearance later in the chapter was the result of them building themself up to actually do it, Tommy's absence and Tubbo's curiosity regarding it was the perfect opportunity for them to take advantage of that but I've gone way off topic. Either way, it's still very clear that Tommy doesn't really have a relationship with his friends anymore because they had no idea he was gone on a supply run. While they still care very deeply for him, they've chosen sides and both Tommy and Tubbo are too stubborn to try and repair it because of the nature of what they disagreed on.

The point of that whole tangent was that the number of people that Tommy has outside of Wilbur has shrunk significantly since his arrival at their temple. He still has people but he lost his three closest friends over his defence of Wilbur, something that I don't think anyone understands because why would they? I don't think even the two of them understand what the fuck is going on there. So when Tommy and Jack return and Jack is obviously freaked out, going on about how Tommy tried to fucking kill him, that last thread of people that Tommy has outside of Wilbur is cut.

Phil and Techno, for as much as they love Tommy, are not going to unconditionally protect or side with him if he is in the wrong. Not like Wilbur is going to. Wilbur essentially becomes the last person that Tommy has in the temple and the limited amount of people that Wilbur had are gone as well. Wilbur and Niki's bonding in this chapter, as much as I loved it, is immediately going down the drain which is evil.

["You know, you and Tommy remind me of me and Jack in a way."] Both duos click with each other but this also just shows that when it comes down to it no matter how well Wilbur and Niki get along with each other, they will side with their boy. It makes sense but it is so sad because they were just really getting along as well. Sure, they had their moments before and obviously they liked each other but they had Jack and Tommy, the two loudest people in the temple, leading the conversations and they never really got the chance to spend time together one on one.

I'm really interested in seeing how Niki and Wilbur are in the next chapter, they're not going to be besties unfortunately but Wilbur knows about how she joined the Deathlings now and Niki knows his name and that he never wanted to be the Pythia so they're at a strange point where they care about each other, they opened up to each other but the two people that they care about most are probably never going to make up and they are choosing opposite sides because that is where their loyalties are.

I don't think Niki would tell everyone Wilbur's name, that is not at all her style unless he does some serious messed up shit in the immediate aftermath but I doubt he will.

So this begins the tried and true 'crimeboys have no one but each other and become extremely codependent because of it' arc.

Fuck this is going to be rough but I'm looking forward to how you go about it this time.

1/2

- 🦈

considering how protective wilbur is getting of tommy, you think he's gonna risk cursing him?? no way. but showing him his face however... yeah, he's getting there :)

yeahhh this chapter really shows just how codependent they've become. it was bound to happen because of wilbur's own past and never really having the chance to make human connections like this before, and also there's the whole thing with tommy having to be constantly by his side at all hours of the day, and how for a while in the early days tommy was just about the only person he would even be willing to talk to.

tommy has slowly been isolating himself from a lot of his other friendships without even realizing it, and i'm glad you picked up on it!! yes, he still has techno and phil because even if he tried to pull away (which he wouldn't) they would yank their boy right back. those two raised him. he's not going anywhere lol. but tubbo is complicated because of their disagreement, and ranboo and aimsey have mostly just been caught in that awkward in between place when two friends in the group are in an argument, except tommy has made no attempts to get them on his side so of course they've just stuck with tubbo. but aimsey DOES want to talk to the pythia because they think he's interesting!! and they're also worried about him after the whole 'should we kill him' debate and they wanna check in to see if he's okay. so yeah, tommy's absence gave them the perfect opportunity to do that.

yup. with this new development with jack though, more ties have been cut. phil and techno won't let tommy just get away with shit, but again, he's their kid. so there might be some distance for a short while, but at the very least i can promise tommy won't completely lose phil and techno. everyone else though... ehhh it remains to be seen.

that's what i wanted to emphasize with the story and everything! even if they're good friends, niki and wilbur are both always going to side with their respective bestie. which of course makes things disastrous only a few hours later when tommy and jack show up at the temple again.

codependency lets goooooo

[theangryjikooker]

Hey TAJ

I understand your reasons on why you think Jikook are not a couple, and I agree with some of them. But I don't understand why the discussion seems to always revolve around the binary are they?/are they not?

There can be a number of ways that you can be romantically involved without attaching the couple label on it.

Starting with a flirtatious friendship and ending with being almost together (doing everthing couples do, but not being official). I can easily imagine them being in a friends with benefits situation. Something like that can be very stable over a couple of years with clear boundaries in place, especially if serious dating overall might be difficult (with them being always buisy and under intense scrutiny from all sides).

And depending on how (ir)regulary they would be involved with one another they might not even tell the other members about it.

Speaking from personal experience stuff like hat can actually work out if you communicate clearly enough and don't overstep. It could eventually end in either a relationship or them moving on with a different partner.

Not saying I have any evidence that thats their situation though, just food for thought.

Hi, anon!

I think the reason that discourse comes up so often here is because it's the driving force of the argument between Jkkrs who think they're Real and the rest of us who don’t for whatever reason. It's not so cut-and-dry when you get into the nitty gritty of it all, though.

You’re right: romantic feelings aren’t strictly for people in monogamous relationships. You don’t need to be officially attached to someone to have romantic feelings towards them, and I like to think it’s more of an unsaid thing here..? When I say things like I don’t think they’re “romantically involved,” that is exclusively in reference to them dating. Unless the nuance of it comes up, like now, it’s never worth making that distinction. Usually, I'm pretty vague about what I mean when I’m discussing the potential feelings they have for each other, and that’s because I don’t know what those feelings are. I tend to simplify it to “affection” or “whatever it is,” but I leave the intensity of it up in the air.

For me, the FWB theory doesn’t sit right with me. On one hand, I'm not saying it's impossible (and there are definitely readers here who think along those lines), and it's a practical enough kind of relationship in this day and age. I could be very wrong about my personal assessments of Jikook, but they don't really strike me as the type to be involved in that kind of arrangement (although yes, I’m aware that judgment calls can be wrong all the time). I think I’d be more inclined to entertain the idea if they were FWB with someone outside of their group. 

FWB relationships can be easy to navigate if you put the proper boundaries in place and talk often, sure, but I would imagine it'd be a little more complex than if two regular Joe's agreed to being FWBs. I'm not sure if the potential fallout of failed FWBs justifies that type of relationship in their situation. I could be wrong! But I do have a hard time latching onto it in the case of Jikook, and I’m generally a huge proponent of casual relationships.

At the heart of theories like this where the members may or may not know what’s going on, and why I tend to veer towards the idea that Jikook would inform the others (even if it’s something as innocuous as having a crush on another member), is simply the existence of OT7 and how intertwined their lives are, how close they are. I don’t believe OT7 is as close to anyone else as they are to one another, so it makes sense to me that if absolutely no one else knows, the members would.

And for the sake of discussion, let’s pretend they are FWB and they engage with one another infrequently that it wouldn’t make sense to bring it up to anyone. Given how often they’re in close proximity to one another (on top of everything else), I’m hard-pressed to believe that no one else would notice something between their members was going on. And all it would take is one person to know before it makes the rounds, and then it becomes a discussion that would need to be brought up. So from my POV, all roads lead to Rome (more or less).

Of course, saying all this presents other potentialities that anyone can explore, but if you’re asking me what I think, there are some dead ends to certain theories because of the beliefs I have that present as huge obstacles to even continue the theory.

This isn’t something you brought up, but I thought I’d just mention it again because of everything I’ve said: I don’t have a problem with supporters who believe in all the things that I disagree with; my problem has always been with theories and speculation becoming twisted as a fact.

So to close this, I personally don’t think of Jikook’s relationship as being this or that. How I perceive their relationship isn’t something that can really be defined, but I’m partial to that ambiguity because it eases the part of me that only wants facts and also the other part of me that’s rather indulgent about how they interact. I don’t think anyone is wrong in how they interpret Jikook’s relationships, but I don’t think anyone is definitively right either.

The only thing I feel comfortable saying with any certainty within the bubble of the Jikook community is that Jikook have chemistry that, to me, separates their dynamic from the ones they each have with the other members (but yes, this is also a perception-based because there are shippers who don’t see them in that way).

Anyway, that’s what I think. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

[hysteriapilled]

- 𝙰 𝚁𝙴𝙰𝙳𝙸𝙽𝙶 𝙾𝙽 𝙴𝚁𝙴𝙽 𝙹𝙰𝙴𝙶𝙴𝚁'𝚂 𝙲𝙷𝙰𝚁𝚃 𝙱𝙴𝙲𝙰𝚄𝚂𝙴 𝙸 𝙷𝙰𝚅𝙴 𝙽𝙾𝚃𝙷𝙸𝙽𝙶 𝙴𝙻𝚂𝙴 𝚃𝙾 𝙳𝙾

Keep in mind that this might be inaccurate considering the information given is not canon, but from google. There will be no house readings since I can't even get a hold of his actual birth time so there is no rising sign (This is Eren's chart and how he would be if he were real, so don't take everything as factual)

𝐅𝐈𝐑𝐒𝐓 𝐎𝐅𝐅

Big 5 Analysis

- SUN IN ARIES. Your sun defines your ego, core identity, your authentic self and in my personal opinion it's not really an important placement in the chart, and more of a title basically. People born into Aries are usually perceived as loud, impulsive, raging and aggressive by others— but they're very caring and protective to the ones they love, though sometimes they sure can have bursts of anger. Eren is stubborn, he can't be chained down and refuses to sit back and watch the people he cares about get tossed around. He is a firm person, quick on his feet and rather very rushing, he's like a puppy excited to get his owner running laps around him, he's hyper and motivating; a natural leader. - MOON IN PISCES. Your moon is your emotional side, how you feel, how you perceive feelings and how you process them. Eren with moon in Pisces is definitely not surprising to me— He is dreamy, intuitive, compassionate and he's either too dependable on others or just an overthinker. Though he may not seem like it Eren is very vulnerable and even prone to getting addicted to substances (alcohol, drugs, bad habits etc.) It's not the best placement in my standpoint, as he can get very affected by his surroundings and others. He can't turn a blind eye and NOT take shit to heart and rather stores it inside and holds onto it. He's very empathetic, he feels people's emotions and feels them well, to the point that he himself experiences what they are going through. - MERCURY IN PISCES. Eren has a LOT of Pisces placements so prepare to see a ton of empathy and psychic abilities in his aspects. Your Mercury is how you think, speak and learn. I sense that Eren has really great vulnerability which might not be a good thing, he trusts people too much and rather relies on them for heaps of things, he can be easily manipulated which is why he should refrain from letting everyone in. On the other hand, he is a very dreamy person and gets lost in his imagination at times. He sees the world in another, imaginative lens, and often could find himself daydreaming randomly. I can see that Eren has a hard time letting go of the past and he can even be linked to people in his life he hadn't seen in years. In terms of rational thinking he isn't the best, as he can't distinguish the logical from the emotional which is definitely something he should work on, he gets often blinded by the illusion of his overwhelming emotions toward others. He can also definitely have an eye to art since his imagination is extravagantly wide.

- VENUS IN TAURUS. Your mercury is your idea of love and how you give it and prefer to receive it— Eren's idea of romance is full of sensuality and gifts, he'll spoil you with his utter loyalty and generally with things too. Devotion is daily, he's extremely honest and would rather die than lie to you. Emphasis on sensuality, Eren craves touch and I could sense that his love language is physical touch, he will shower you with affection and fulfill your needs any time of the day. Taurus in Venus are all about comfort and coziness with their lover, so I can see that Eren loves cuddling, massages, food, sleepovers, intimate little things like that strike a chord in his heart. He can be possessive and jealous of times, he hates change specifically big ones in relationships—He can also take a long time to get to know you and prefers taking things slow and steady rather than rushing into it. I can also feel that he loves hard-workers, people who are dedicated and responsible (that's definitely his type). - MARS IN CAPRICORN. Two words. Goal driven. Your Mars is your approach towards anger and impulses as well as your sexuality aspects. Eren is self-controlled and refuses to take orders from others, he can't be chained down not because he's stubborn, but simply because he can't allow himself to stop. He has a tendency to shut out the world to pursue his objective— he moves forward (not a pun) and is willing to fight against everything and everyone to reach his goal, he isn't petty as he considers little quarrels a waste of time and energy. He likes to focus on the big problem at hand, not how to fight and win the battle but how to prepare for conquering the war once and for all. Eren with this placement knows that he is entitled to earn what he works hard for and will not let anything stop him. Mars signs can also affect appearance so I sense that Eren has very prominent and broad cheekbones, a serious face, and a very stiff, steady voice like he's about to command something. It can also be an intimate, velvety and cold voice and on the topic of intimacy— He usually prefers seeing you face to face and rather dislikes social media flings. He comes with a natural inclination to assume a dominant role in bed and he does what doesn't bother him (kink-wise) His temper is so icy, and he could definitely be on the sadomasochism spectrum. He's very soft in nature so if something was bothering you he'd instantly be turned off. Eren can be aggressive and intense but he may not specifically get off on pain (or he may) more like he finds the idea of being in control a very satisfying idea.

𝐒𝐄𝐂𝐎𝐍𝐃 𝐎𝐅𝐅

2. Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune & Pluto Analysis

- JUPITER IN AQUARIUS. Your Jupiter is where you can receive the most luck and love, without you really doing much. It’s where you can catapult to happiness and success through quickest routes possible, within reason. I can tell from previous placements that Eren is a firm believer in standing for what you think is right. He is very opinionated and sometimes a bit too much— Some of his beliefs or theories can be brilliant and genius and others quite nonsensical and implausible, he rushes into throwing the first opinion just for the sake of throwing it first. Any analytical work about objective themes would come easily to him. Passion and enthusiasm will come astonishingly fast too as he can actually stun society with his innate knowledge with complicated subjects. Any scientific, technological, or perhaps just general abstract topics will benefit Eren greatly in subtle and/or unsubtle ways. He takes leaps of faith and believes what his eyes cannot see or what his mind cannot grasp. Simply what makes everything work out so well for him is the open minded love he puts into his theories. Sometimes though, he fears judgement people give to his methods as they are sometimes out of the box and peculiar. Eren would have to let go of his attachment to what other people think about his ways on solving or analyzing. - SATURN IN LIBRA. Your Saturn sign is your life’s obstacles and challenges, the rewards that come with time, and the discipline you need to achieve your goals. To start off with friendships, Eren cares about others and is tireless in serving others—he's also prone to putting others before him (others as in the people he cares about) And supporting his moon and mercury Pisces, he is very artistic and helps civilize those who need the lessons. The companionship he seeks can often give him solace and security, with his comrades support he feels a lot more powerful and in self-control. In relationships though Eren may tend to have a bit of an inferiority complex when it comes to relationships and is afraid of rejection & may try to shut himself away or run if the going gets tough. He is very drawn to mentor types, and may often be with someone older and wiser. Despite that he still finds a way to assume the dominant role in the relationship due to his cold nature. Eren commits to artful projects, making it possible to live his dreams by seeing them to completion, he finds it very gratifying and has mental discipline when he finds activities that matches his high ideals. His sense of social justice is heightened, that could get him into law, politics and activism—His firm belief in himself also plays a big role in this, his bravery allows himself to sacrifice whatever he has to, to get the job done. Chaos, crassness, and ugliness can cause him a lot of anxiety and fear, and with his persistence to right the wrong he gets really frustrated when people don't have an outlook to life the same as his. I sense that it may be hard for Eren to accept that only he is able to control himself, and it's a hard pill for him to swallow.

- URANUS IN PISCES. As I mentioned before Eren's chart is dominated with Pisces placements, his intuition works at another wavelength than that of the common people, and for this reason, he is in a much deeper connection to the spirit world. He can sense the occult and this acts as a form of guidance for him, an anchor to support his meanderings through life’s challenges. Pair that up with his splendid imagination and innovative spirit, and you get someone who’s afraid of failure even when he’s not doing anything out of the ordinary, the worst thing that could happen to Eren is failing and losing his sense of validation. He’s a negativist ( I can see Eren as a cynical person later on in life, a realist would fit his philosophical belief) but, he should let his intuition and connection to the spirit world heal this part of his, instead of allowing everything to work against him. He won’t let himself be fooled by naïve ideals, even though he likes believing in them. He can be quite realistic and logical when the situation calls for it and that's quite ironic considering he's indulged in his imagination most of the time. - NEPTUNE IN SAGITTARIUS. This is one hell of a placement. Experimentation with different beliefs, spiritual strands, and esoteric-based teachings are all things Eren finds interest in. He cannot deny the divine existence truly and indefinitely to himself- even if he does so to others, there is always the gnawing sense that ‘there is something more,’ and one day he may regret not finding out what that is. His gift is bringing the joy of shared faith and spirituality together, making the sect he resonates with part of his life’s philosophy. We can tell by now that Eren's purpose is seeking truth, absorbing information and looking at the world in a different lens. - PLUTO IN PISCES. Shawty Bae here can also can be more passive aggressive when trying to get what he wants. This means he can be manipulative at times. This is the only time he ever makes a power play. When he is struggling to achieve something for the greater good. (THIS ACTUALLY RESONATES WITH HIS PLAN) But this desire for control is never executed maliciously. He wants things to go his way so he doesn't disappoint those who are counting on him. Eren can be very sensitive, and it’s important to him that he doesn't let anyone down. He so desperately want to help people that he sometimes sacrifices his health and well being, and even somtimes the well being of others just for the outcome to turn out best.

𝐋𝐀𝐒𝐓𝐋𝐘

3. Chiron (Scar)

- CHIRON IN PISCES. Your Chiron sign in astrology shows where you sustained your deepest wound, your scar— It can never be completely healed, but they can be worked with and transmuted. Eren with Chiron in Pisces, we've already talked about many Pisces qualities in him (empathy, psychic abilities, imagination etc.) But the Chiron has a lot more depth into it, Eren might have a deep fear of being hurt by the universe or the forces at play. He might feel that the world is unfair or merciless and doesn't have his back almost every time. He has a sense of betrayal, and that leads him into cynicism (mentioned before in his Uranus placement) He felt that nobody was there for him when he needed it the most and he also feels a sense of victimization. This placement has a lot to do with the idea of FATE. Even subconsciously Eren feels he was dealt an unfair life, I can also feel that his way of coping is feeling someones grief right alongside them. Sympathyzing is definitely his way of forgetting about his own problems. Even though Eren doesn't exactly victimize himself he still can't understand why the universe is set up this way— he feels that the world isn't fair to him and his loved ones. Although all this scarring shows when he indulges himself in an immense shell of cynicism, then he hops between two places; Not feeling empathy for others since nobody offered empathy to him - or sympathyzing greatly and putting others' needs before his. It is easy for him to shut his feelings out but only with the help of substances which makes him more prone to getting addicted. This placement was created at some point in the past when Eren needed something badly and didn’t get it (sometimes the wound stems from a past life, but this stemmed from his childhood) Maybe it's because he felt insignificant to someone he felt was an idol to him, maybe this figure or idol was never there to nurture him and the probability of him having a lost close one in early childhood days is a very probable cause in how this Chiron stemmed.

BONUS:

- I get massive ISFP vibes from early Eren and INTJ from late him.

- His Venus Taurus makes him very romantic, so I feel like this would be his favorite song to dance to