#''all people have inherent worth'' vs ''not me though. im not a person'' fight

[epicdogymoment]

[creacherkeeper]

im getting a little too in my family feels today and so INSTEAD of feeling those im just going to ramble for a second about why i fucking love paladin!aelwyn because. im. just like this i guess im coping leave me alone

cw for discussions of child abuse, maladaptive coping, drugs and alcohol, self harm, destructive tendencies, basically everything we see in canon and the implications

aelwyn is ... SO interesting to me because for as much of her interiority as we see, as much of her as we think we understand, as much as i could ramble about her character for hours, we know ALMOST NOTHING about her in actuality?? (besides ... one key thing)

(this is like 2k and probably incoherent someone please stop me)

okay. listen. almost everything we see aelwyn do in s1 is maladaptive rebellion against her parents and home life. the drinking, the drugs, the partying, perhaps some of kalvaxus (though i dont think we fully understand how much of that was forced on her as well, kalina WAS watching her when she was talking to adaine about it). you can say like, oh aelwyn is a party animal, she's impulsive, she makes risky decisions, she's bitchy and rude, and its like. okay but IS SHE ACTUALLY. because under her parents thumb she had an EXTREMELY limited amount of freedom, and usually when people are suffering from very little control over their life, they WILL act destructively over the tiny bit they can, either harming themselves or their environment or people lower than them in the pecking order, because in a way, that feels like a reclamation of autonomy. saying "you have so much power over me but can you stop me from hurting myself and destroying what you havent managed to claim yet?". its just like, kind of what human brains do and frequently has little to do with a persons actual personality or impulses, its just. desperate brains trying to control SOMETHING because autonomy is a fundamental human need and when thats taken away we get. very bad off. (this is one big reason eating disorders are SO common with abused kids.) so i think a lot of the s1 aelwyn we see is like. this is a very desperate, abused teenager "acting out" in the only way it is possibly somewhat safe for her to do so because, on a psychological level, the self destruction is weirdly the only emotional tether and its either this or just dissociate all the time (something we do see she has problems with in canon)

and yes, she did treat adaine horribly in s1. she fully did. obviously what we get in canon is what happens but a moment thats interesting to me is in episode 1 where adaine has attacked aelwyn several times, who either does nothing or just bounces it back, when she says "i never cast spells at you" and siobhan immediately retcons it and says "yes you do, all the time" (i havent gone back and watched this bit so i might be wording this wrong). obviously its an improv show and the canon is built between performers as they go, but that was interesting to me. that brennan hadnt intended for her to have fought back in that way. she definitely feeds into the emotional abuse from their parents and participates in all the toxicity there, but we know in canon that she did that because of overwhelming fear and self preservation. and that her self hatred because of it just fed back into the cycle and made her feel like she wasnt good enough to even try to break free from it. this is very common in golden child/scapegoat sibling relationships where the golden child SEES what the parents are capable of and becomes a participant in the abuse out of fear for their own standing. in any way siding with the scapegoat child not only directs abuse at themselves as well, but frequently makes things WORSE for the scapegoat because the parents will take out the challenge to their power on them even more. so, if aelwyn DID ever try to defend or help adaine when they were small, she would have VERY QUICKLY learned that made things worse for everyone. and just. sectioned that part of her brain off, as she's done with so many other things. (and i dont think im reading too much into the forest scene with the abernants to say their parents were VERY QUICK to turn abuse towards aelwyn if she stepped out of line even a little. like, you dont flinch when a hand moves unless. you know. dont need to say it just something to think about. as far as we saw in canon, she had done everything they asked of her leading up to the forest, and we DONT KNOW what happened in it but we do know brennan specifically called out how in broken spirits she was when adaine was summoned, even though they did the ritual to avoid all of the nightmare bullshit)

(the house party is literally a whole separate post but i think its fair to point out that 1) she was super under the influence when that was happening which DEFINITELY is in no way an excuse for her behavior but worth remembering when trying to analyze that 2) her losing that fight did canonically have DRASTIC consequences for her and even if she didnt know exactly how that was going to turn out, i think she knew how bad it might be. and she did not know adaine or any of the bad kids were going to be there in the first place)

all that said, it feels in some ways counterproductive to say that aelwyn is an extremely devoted and protective person (yes we're getting to the paladin shit i know i've been rambling a while) but i think that thats strangely ALL WE ACTUALLY KNOW ABOUT HER. because we've established that her self-destructive and abusive behavior in s1 is almost entirely psychologically scripted for her by her parents, we dont know how much of her villain shit in s1 was LITERALLY UNDER THREAT OF DEATH because we know at least killing the oracle was and we dont know how much of the rest of it was mandated by either her parents or kalina other than that she probably was under orders not to tell adaine the truth, and we know participating in all of this caused extreme self loathing in her that she refused to show to anybody and was too terrified to act on in any way

so, like. what does that actually leave us?

here's what we do know about aelwyn:

- of all the schools of magic, she went into abjuration

- the entire bbeg plan from season 1 hinged on aelwyn's complete faith that her level 1 sister was the most prodigious diviner in the world

- right after (?) the house party, she locked her memories where only adaine could find it with a note basically saying "theres so much bad blood between us but i know only you could find this"

- she desperately wanted to protect adaine and the fact that she was too afraid to do so made her hate herself (and her knowing that adaine now knows this is the turning point in their relationship)

- despite everything, even in the nmk forest, she still loved her parents

- the SECOND she is shown genuine love and affection and care from adaine, and adaine says whatever you do, i am here with you, all her actions from there forward are just about protecting adaine from their father, very nearly at the cost of her own life

- with what she probably thought were her last words (and would have been if adaine hadnt given her the tincture), all she wanted to communicate was how to help adaine and the bad kids, and how despite everything she had always believed in her

- at five levels of exhaustion, unconscious, she used her first spell slot after nine months of torture to build a shield around adaine

NOW we get to paladin!aelwyn. because, once everything is stripped away, the abuse and the control and the maladaption and the threats and the torture, EVERYTHING we ACTUALLY can glean about aelwyn's personality and inner core is that she's protective and devoted. and of course classes arent locked by personality, but that just screams paladin to me. its her WHOLE THING. adaine even says "wizards dont have heals, we dont care about other people" and of COURSE that isnt true for either of them, but? mechanically? aelwyn chose the wizard school that DID let her protect, and DID let her help, but i dont think, at this point, going forward, thats really going to be enough for her (and we could also talk about the parallels between them, how often adaine uses her portents to help other people)

i think a lot of the different reads on aelwyn come from this fundamental disconnect between her actions and displayed personality vs who she actually is and what she actually wants. and i think there are very different interpretations of what thats going to look like for her going forward. but i think, for a girl who's most hated characteristic about herself was her self preservation at the detriment of others, her perceived selfishness, and her fear ... isn't choosing to be braver and more selfless and more protective and shedding that self-preserving instinct for the betterment of others ... and MECHANICALLY being able to act on all those things ... the logical next step? i think its going to be a LONG TIME before aelwyn can love herself, but what other way is there to try? if adaine loves her, and adaine believes she can be better, isnt being better because she trusts adaine kind of a form of self love? saying, i dont believe in myself, but i believe in the person who believes in me, and maybe, in a roundabout way, thats the same thing. she was never able to TRY to be better before, because trying to improve even a little, even when people arent watching, when a harmful force has so much power over you and your actions ... like, the mental dissonance is honestly TOO much to even try, thats WAY more terrifying than letting yourself be bad, to the point where thats psychologically impossible for a lot of people. but now she actually has space and freedom and CHOICE and she CAN embrace the instincts she always had to shove down, she CAN be the person she knows her sister needed her to be

i dont know, i think theres an inherent love letter to yourself in wanting to be better and wanting to improve, even if you justify it by saying its for someone else. and now aelwyn actually CAN improve, and thats probably going to be extremely awkward and scary and there will be set backs and backslides for sure. but. i dont know. i think she wants to make up for lost time. because she never wanted the time to be lost in the first place. and if a protector is who she always wanted to be, whats stopping her from being that now?

[meanminyxrd]

believe but its ab a redheaded runaway

alright so today i’m tackling ‘believe’ by hollywood undead. i think the vibes can fit both andrew and neil, but moreso neil in this connotation. as always, book spoilers ahead. i’ve been forgetting to put that lately.

let’s start w the chorus and opening of the song:

I can't believe that when I breathe

There's something good inside of me, just one good thing inside

So close to me, that memory

Of that one good thing inside of me, just one good thing inside of me, yeah

neil is, inherently, a selfish person before he gets attached to the foxes. think ab it: he cares only for his survival and nothing more, nothing less. that takes a certain type of apathy towards other people, which was taught to him by his mother. stay disconnected, stay safe. care for no one but yourself. when he starts seeing that the foxes care for him, and he’s just... playing them, essentially—lying to them about who he is and where he’s come from—he acknowledges that they’re never going to forgive him for ditching them later on in the year; specifically andrew, because he promised andrew he would stay. he feels like a bad person but it’s what he has to do to live. he wants to stay and play exy and be able to focus on something other than survival for once, but he knows it’s all just a play in his head. in the end its about his survival.

If I ran out the backdoor, nobody would stop me, but where would I go?

'Cause I ain't ever had a real home, so what do I know?

So I could keep running, hide until they find me, but what would that do?

If they could only know what I knew, what would it prove?

I should've seen the writing on the wall, instead I'm left to fall

'Cause the longer I'm away, the more we stay the same

Looking back, would've thought I knew it all

Instead I'm left to fall, did I throw it all away?

neil is a runaway. it’s how he’s managed to survive this long; running away and keeping on the move to avoiding his father’s men tracking him down. never leaving a trail, never staying anywhere for too long and never making any connections. when he leaves, there’s no one there to stop him both physically and metaphorically. no connections means he isn’t held back emotionally or by someone forcing him to stay. he’s never really had a home, being on the run his whole life. its all about survival, but neil signs the contract to palmetto, right? he knows he could keep running to stay safe but really, what would that do? is that really living? he wants to open up to people im sure, but what would that prove to them? in his mind it would just show that he was a bad person—dangerous. keeping kevin around is one thing; kevin is an exy star. he’s worth it. but neil? neil is nothing. why would they risk their life for a nobody?

saying he should have seen the writing on the wall alludes to all the hints that his father’s men left that they were closing in on him, however he ignored it just to be able to stay a little longer—play a little longer. instead he ignored it and fell. looking back on it he thought he had a handle on it and would be able to get away or at the very least accept his death, but it actually hurts. he got attached without realizing. and now he’s wondering if any of it was worth it. is this worth losing his life for? or, did he do enough w his time with the foxes and with andrew? or did he throw away that time for nothing?

Don't you know, little boy, they'll lay you to waste, man?

Little do they know every song has a lifespan

Never taken one, but I'm taking my last chance

To hold all we know and let go with both hands

So don't you know the clouds are made from concrete?

Right through the stone, can you hear my heartbeat?

Beats through my bones like the memory left me

Not for a second or a minute when I dream

I wanna go home like the home that I keep

You can dig six or sixty-six feet

‘don’t you know, little boy, they’ll lay you to waste, man?’ his father’s men want him dead and he knows that. they’re who he’s been outrunning his entire life (and i suppose the yakuza but he didn’t know that.) he knows attention is being drawn towards him by being in the public eye, so this is like he’s mocking himself, because he knows he’s taking a very big unnecessary risk. he’s never taken a chance in his life before because its always been about survival. but this time he is taking a chance. he’s taking a chance by joining the palmetto state foxes. but by taking this chance it is metaphorically the last chance he’ll ever take, because at this point he’s 99% sure he’s gonna end up dead by the end of it all. ‘dont you know the clouds are made of concrete?’ referencing that the only way out for him is by death. whether by someone else’s hand or his own. the only way this whole catastrophe is going to end in him being ‘at peace’ or ‘in heaven’ ie the clouds, is if he’s killed. digging 6 or 66 feet down implies ‘6 feet under’, again a death metaphor.

We could live forever, still your misery missed me

Hold this song together with a bottle of whiskey

Look into the mirror at the lines that time drew

See them painted white and the eyes that shine through

My heart beats heavy in an open chest

And I wanna say goodbye, but there's nobody left

he could have gone to his dad and flipped everything on his mom instead, or run off to live with his uncle, but the anger that his father had missed neil. yes, neil had his father’s temper, but his father was tainted with misery that neil didn’t get and he didn’t want any part in the crime scene of things. ‘look into the mirror at the lines that time drew, see them painted white and teh eyes that shine through.’ this part to me is in the mirror after the nest, when neil is first really seeing his scars, ‘the lines that time drew’ would reference like old age lines stereotypically, but in neil’s case i see it a reference to his scars because that’s what marks time for him—his scars. the scars that his dad and his dad’s men left. the scars that riko left. the scars he has just from living. the ‘eyes that shine through’ is because neil no longer has his contacts. when wymack gets him from the airport he has nothing of his disguise left. and god, is he tired of running. his heart is so heavy. he wants to be able to say goodbye to someone when he dies, but there’s no one left. his mom is dead and he has no connections other than, now, the foxes. but being in this mindset of its him vs everyone, he’s alone. he cant say goodbye to anyone but himself.

I broke it all, and I put it to the test

Put your hand on mine, and feel this emptiness

There's no beat in my chest 'cause there's nothing left

No, it ain't goodbye, it's a last caress

What's another dream? You can hardly sleep

Can you believe bad things only happen to me?

God knows one day you will finally see

That scars will heal but were meant to bleed

neil, by making these decisions, broke every self imposed rule he had for himself to stay safe. he broke the rules his mother had set in place prior to her death, and he tested the limits. he chanced trusting, if just a little. he chanced making a connection. specifically, with andrew. so this part is really andreil heavy for me. let me explain why.

this part is almost like the locker room scene when his father’s men were being security guards and he knew he no longer stood any chance. he says goodbye to andrew in that moment, and this last part is a big goodbye message to me.

he’s empty. he’s out of fight. he cant fight or he would risk the foxes lives too. there’s nothing left inside of him. he says thank you to andrew as a goodbye, but it’s not a goodbye, no, it’s a last touch, one last joy to share even if it’s small. ‘whats another dream? you can hardly sleep.’ what’s the loss of something you lose all the time? what’s the loss of something that doesnt matter? neil doesnt think he matters to andrew, and so what will his loss mean, if anything? why would andrew care? the ‘can you believe bad things only happen to me?’ is a mocking quote if anything; bad things have followed neil around his whole life, and though statistically its not true only bad things happen to him, it sure feels like he’s got the worst of it. and even in the off chance that andrew does miss him, the emotional scars will heal, even if it does hurt. because neil doesnt think he matters as much to andrew as he really does.

Do you realize I would lie for you?

Please, have my last breath, I would die for you

I know I'm no good, but my heart beats true

You know I'm gonna fight, though I might be scared to lose

You took me in, and I fucked it up again

An empty promise? No, I won't pretend

'Cause in the end we need someone to solve 'em

Nobody can fix me if I'm part of the problem

he would give everything to protect the foxes. he cares about them more than he’d like to admit. he may seem distant, but do they realize how far he’s willing to go to ensure their safety? first he went to the nest to protect them, right? now he’s literally going off to his death to keep them safe. he would lie for them, he would die for them; he would throw away everything he could and couldn’t have for them. he doesnt believe hes a good person, for putting them all in this situation, but he’s trying his best. his heart has the best intentions for the foxes. in that ‘goodbye’ to andrew, he conveys so much, and andrew obviously catches on that it’s a goodbye. but neil conveys that he’s gonna fight, even if he’s scared he’s gonna lose, even if he knows he’s gonna lose. andrew took him in after everything; after being sus of neil and then neil telling him half truths, and yet he’s fucking everything up again by going off to die. and empty promise? there isnt an empty failed promise because he made andrew break off the deal beforehand. in the end, andrew was the one who was helping to fix him. the connection he formed with andrew made him feel like he had a shot; like maybe they could outwit his father and he would be safe. however, this whole situation including himself couldn’t be fixed because he is a part of the problem. he blames himself for the foxes being a target so to keep them safe he will go off w his father’s men and remove the issue. no one can fix him and keep him safe if he’s the dangerous one.

uhhh yeah i hope you liked my breakdown! here’s neil’s playlist if you’re curious for more! see ya next time.

[ariyadaivaris]

hey ive been trying to figure out how to do this for awhile and since some anons have asked im gonna try 2 articulate my feelings about f*nn and this is not going to be very polite and im sorry, its nothing personal and if you have a perspective on him that i dont its fine and i absolutely get you and im glad you can enjoy that! i just wanted to try and work through how the fuck i feel about him and this is ultimately a pretty personal post and not a Manifesto on How F*nn Is Bad (i dont think he is, particularly, ftr), so like, if youre not interested which I CANNOT FAULT YOU FOR AT ALL, just know that its cool to go on! this isn’t trying to start shit or anything, i genuinely dont want to, im just writing this for Me, basically. its alright. 

thanks thats the intro done okay take care i love u

what...does f*nn have even. he’s good in the ring but he’s surrounded by people who are better. he doesn’t have a character. what motivates him? what the fuck is he even fighting for? what is his personality, even? he absorbs the storylines of everyone around him in any feud he does too often for him to be as underdeveloped as he is and yet we are here and WHY???

i mean. apollo. let’s look at apollo! apollo is similarly kinda underdeveloped character-wise and most of who he is comes from who he is irl, and people don’t really play characters up irl! but like. it’s not glaring in the same way f*nn is, because

1) apollo got called up SUPER SUPER EARLY in nxt where f*nn had YEARS to develop a character and still holds a spot as longest reigning nxt champion, and

2) apollo plays a support role! he’s not a main event player (which is fucking criminal in and of itself but thats another issue) and him being underdeveloped+not as fleshed out lends itself pretty well to him supporting people however they need support at the moment. it’s not Ideal but it works well for who he is in the context of story stuff, which is not the case for f*nn

(also 3 secretly but apollo’s moveset is actually really varied and interesting which f*nn’s is...not but that’s a subjective thing obviously lol)

like. f*nn is just. such a nothing of a wrestler. i’m sorry but genuinely i don’t know or understand what there is there. he doesn’t have a character besides...vagueing people on twitter until he gets what he wants and yes okay i know that’s not an entirely true unbiased thing to say and im sorry but also i dont think im exactly Wrong

(also about vaguing people on twitter i know that has something to do with how bad his 2017 booking was, i WON’T deny that, and multiple people are booked badly in dubya at once and they all deserve more than that, but also f*nn’s the only person who really got any rage on his behalf as far as i’ve seen and it’s definitely affected my feelings about that)

the only thing he’s got going for him is a storied history in new japan, which itself feels lacking in the ring, and which honestly...gets...a lot more credit than deserved (and mostly SOLO credit at that)? he DID create the bullet club but his bullet club was essentially an entire stable of Foreigner Heels. cheap heat. any story he told (and i only know that there was apollo 55, im unaware of any other feuds, so bear that in mind) feels so...like...secondary to that of anyone he worked with. he could be a support role and get away with being the white bread he is but GOD FORBID that should happen, and so he just engulfs the story of anyone around him and does nothing and it’s just

it’s disappointing and its boring and exhausting to see him get shot after shot after shot doing the same thing over and over again because He Can. i have nothing much against him, i think he’s petty and petulant and very...self-absorbed, like, not in an entirely bad way but in the sense that he buys a lot of his own hype? and its...off-putting. i don’t know him personally though obviously, that’s just how i feel about him based on what ive seen, but like, as a person, its whatever. i just can’t stand him as a wrestler or a character. he’s generic and unmotivated and so. NOTHING and it’s exhausting to watch and try to make something meaningful and enjoyable out of. especially juxtaposed with the miz rn, and even with s*th, who i hate but who at least HAS a personality even if it’s a genuinely awful one

not even going into the fan reception of f*nn vs anyone else who’s more deserving and interesting than he is, lmao, i’m bitter as anything about how f*nn is treated compared to the cruiserweights because NATURALLY and OBVIOUSLY i’m biased, you all know this, i don’t deny it, i cant say this comparison is all the way fair when im so so so FUCKING cwuisewweights, but like, the reaction to f*nn getting Beachballed vs any of the 205 dudes getting Beachballed was so heartbreaking in how much More he gets just for the name he’s got

i don’t know. i don’t know. i just think he’s such a nothing of a character, surrounded by people (taguchi, joe, kevin, hideo, FUCK IT, even s*th or like, fucking, KENNY, or the young bucks, or ANYONE) who really care about the character and story they have against him, and instead of being relegated to a supporting role where he’d be like, Worth anything, he’s thrust into whatever title picture or main event there is because He’s F*nn B*lor and it’s so...so much less talked about or acknowledged and for the life of me i don’t understand why. i don’t know what it is im missing

again, i don’t have much against him as a person, i personally don’t like how he acts but he doesn’t seem Proublematique in any way beyond...the foreigner heel stuff which is inherently built in anti-japan sentiment EVEN THOUGH that is strictly kayfabe afaik (though he does fucken. support the special olympics and did some Cool Trendy Straitjacket Entrances as prince nevitt and that is a very VERY personal thing i have against him) i guess that’s what matters. i just. ugh. im over it

i appreciate him being vocally supportive of queer fans but i don’t owe him for that and i still think it sucks that he, a (as far as i know) straight white dude, is getting the platform to do that instead of people who are actually queer and out in the same company. sonya isn’t getting this chance, and more blatantly, darren never got that chance. despite having the block the hate movement, and despite the fact that his coming out is what got him a face turn while it was ENTIRELY and COMPLETELY unacknowledged in the canon universe of wwe proper. like, i guess that’s not f*nn’s fault but there’s a common trend of men of color being pushed down to boost him up and it’s not the best. i don’t think that’s all his fault but i don’t like it

again this isn’t like, denouncing Liking F*nn, its fine! this isnt decrying everything about him, i don’t wanna fight about this, and if you like finn, sincerely i’m glad you can find something there to like and i hope you’re having a good time with him! and to boot i really DON’T know much about anything he did before dubya, and so i could very well be wrong about everything. like, calling the gullet blub just a Cheap Heat Stable? that interpretation could be and probably is wrong. i know that, and i know that’s probably gonna affect how i feel abt him, but also god i do not care even a bit enough to learn and i would rather die than look at pr*nce nevitt/gullet blub anything

i dont know. i hope this didnt come off as.......TOO shitty, i know this is a stupid and mostly impenetrable post, its alright, this is just me trying to work through this for myself and i promise its not like...a huge thing. thats all! thats all. im sorry if i worded this weird at all and i know my perspective isnt the best or most informed on this, but also i am very very tired of f*nn and i don’t think that’s an unfair thing to say

[eloquentdrivil]

sqokscreams reblogged your post and added:

so i noticed that when you mentioned me(here v) i noticed you pretty much say the same stuff here so im sort of gonna reply to both @veganfacts said “Meat eaters abuse their pets every day and literally pay for animals to be abused and murdered” which somehow made you feel as if they’re rude and feel morally superior and not all vegans have the same views. but the thing is, that’s not just an opinion or anything. it’s the truth that every vegan knows and agrees with. a vegan stating facts doesn’t mean they think they’re better than you fam, we’re just trying to educate. like for instance, we all know that an animal has to be killed in order to make meat, right? and major industries depend on supply and demand to exist. so if many people demand meat products, more animals will be killed, and the opposite will happen if there is less demand...

@sqokscreams

(I will touch on your major points, but I wanted to condense space by replying like this.)

I don’t need or expect you to go through the other comments and replies I’ve made on and about that post, but if you wanted to confirm what I’m about to say, you will see the evidence of this at every turn; conceptually speaking, I’m pro-vegan.

Veganism can do a lot of good things, and I always make sure I acknowledge that, because, if I’m arguing with someone, my issues never come down to the practice of, or the incentives behind veganism. Besides just animal welfare, veganism could heavily cut back our environmental impact, so even if I didn’t care about rampant animal exploitation in the meat and dairy industry, veganism would still be a quantifiably good choice.

My problem with veganfacts, and the problem I’m addressing with you now in an effort to explain, is the inflammatory language they used.

It was not a fact, it was hyperbole, and right off the bat, the framing they used showed they do not care about context. The act of stripping context and defamiliarizing a nominal task makes their own point superficial, acting as nothing more than a way to flaunt their moral superiority over people who “pay for animals to be abused.”

In that same breath, it could be said that vegans “pay people to enslave and abuse children,” because of the rampant human rights abuses the produce industry is guilty for.

But neither you, nor veganfacts are guilty of endorsing child/forced labor just because the companies that distribute your food to you are guilty of using it.

But if that had been my responding claim to the shot at non-vegans, and then proceeded to push such a claim to undermine everything else you said thereafter, would you think me a good, thoughtful, or kind person?

That framing injects violence and hate into the consumer that just doesn’t exist. It makes a rabid monster out of regular people and twists this entire issue into a moral battle between vegans and non-vegans, and takes the ultimate blame off the companies that commit these atrocities.

And in their effort to do so, it shows just how little care veganfacts has in reaching out to and educating non-vegans. There is no education to be had there. A non-vegan gleans nothing from that statement other than, “Vegans hate non-vegans. Rabidly so.”

Because that’s what you would understand in that statement if the roles were reversed. That is a hateful statement. It’s divisive and stands only to show how little regard that person has for anyone not already living a vegan lifestyle, and they do not represent a majority of vegans.

To claim that that sentiment is universal is a bastardization of what the vegan movement is trying to accomplish.

Vegans want stricter regulations and higher sanctions against those who break them. In all sectors. They do not ostracize potential future vegans by furthering a rhetoric that sees people in a grocery store as the same level of evil and complicit as dog-fighters. 

On top of that, it’s ignorant and shows just how little that person cares about understanding or overcoming the roadblocks currently standing in the way of amassing more people to the movement.

You said this in your last reply:

i’m kind of confused about the links you posted, because most of them don’t affect the accessibility of plant foods. for example, hunger doesn’t affect what kinds of foods stores carry. of course the cost of the food effects what poor  people would be able to buy, but you can easily buy cheap plant foods. unless you mean hunger caused by food deserts or something? but anyway, i agree that veganism would be extremely difficult in food deserts, though there are many cheap junk foods that are “accidentally vegan” such as oreos and potato chips. i of course don’t blame anyone in that situation for depending on takeout and mcdonalds and stuff, though. however, i doubt someone in that kind of situation would have time to complain about veganism when they’re in a stressful environment and need to constantly worry about getting food on the table. if you could spare enough time writing that long post, i’m pretty sure you also have time to think about making different food choices. . .

Now, I don’t know your situation, I’m not going to claim I understand what you have and haven’t faced in your lifetime, but this (and the rest of that section thereafter), does shed light on what seems to be a disjointed understanding of what poverty and restricted food choice actually looks like.

First, while looking through food statistics in the US for those links, there is no statistical data on produce availability, outside of the data they have on food deserts. And not just that I couldn’t find it; there is an actual acknowledged lack of quantifiable data. People have tried, and there’s just no way to account for or normalize any sort of hard figure on these problems from an availability standpoint.

Second, “cheap” is subjective. Your idea of cheap may not be the same as mine if we have different amounts of disposable income after bills. But when it comes to cost vs. calories, non-vegan is always less expensive. Healthy foods are up-sold at a higher price because there’s a internalized notion in capitalistic culture that says “quality” justifies a higher price. It’s worth more, so it costs more, with worth describing a physical necessity, in this case.

To someone without financial security, the question becomes, “what can I buy that will stretch the length of time until my next paycheck?”

That kind of financial insecurity isn’t so stark when you look at who it’s affecting. Imagine a scenario like a family of four in a white suburban neighborhood who can feed all four of them for a days on a boneless ham at a dollar per pound, which is a whole hell of a lot less expensive that a nutritionally comparable plant-based substitute.

Veganism isn’t cost effective, and even if someone can afford the vegan options one week, they are not guaranteed that same outcome the next, so it’s not sustainable. 

For you, yeah, maybe it is, but for a majority of Americans, veganism is money and food lost. It’s getting your paycheck and attempting to cut even more room out for the added expense, without even the benefit of gaining you more food per dollar spent, and while also gambling that you’ll have the wiggle room every week to do so. What happens when that one bad week comes and the choice comes down to not being able to feed yourself for the whole week, or having to get sick when you force re-acclimation to meat-based products that’ll at least last until your next paycheck?

That’s an irresponsible risk, and that risk exists entirely because corporations stand to profit off an ideology that makes healthier lifestyle choices like veganism more expensive.

Which makes arguments like this ignorant, at best, and elitist worst:

like the entertainment thing. i know that not everyone can go vegan, but a majority of the people in the world can, so if someone chooses to eat meat when there are millions of other options, then they are doing it for their enjoyment, or as you can also say, entertainment. of course you don’t get entertainment out of what happens to the animals in factory farms, but you are still buying the meat because you enjoy how they taste. the treatment of the animals is just a factor that plays into it.

Removing this to a world-wide argument makes it even worse; 1 in 9 people in the world suffers from chronic undernourishment. And that statistic just accounts for people going hungry. 80% of the world’s population lives on less than $10 a day. That’s ten dollars spread across bills and other expenses beyond just food.

The necessity of meat-based products in most people’s lives is just that; a necessity. So long as veganism remains more expensive than the alternative, that necessity remains.

In both of their replies, veganfacts pushed an unrepentant “us vs them, and they kill animals for fun” kind of ideology. They hold themselves so high above the issue, they, again, twisted the purchase of meat products from a store to sit on par with active animal slaughter. 

And the original post was just about bunnies being a good alternative for vegans trying to figure out how to find balance between their pets dietary needs and their own ethics!

They stepped into a post completely unrelated to the point they wanted to push - a point not counter-intuitive to their own ideology - with the express purpose of demonizing non-vegans.

They’re condescending and ignorant. They don’t care about facilitating the vegan movement, because if they did, they’d look at the inaccessibility of the lifestyle and fight for that instead of vilifying non-vegans for “paying people to kill animals.”

They believe veganism makes vegans inherently morally righteous in all their pursuits to non-vegans. That’s the only reason their mind would’ve gone to that reply upon reading my original post. And that is not how veganism should be exemplified.

Doing so frames veganism as an elitist movement that cares more about mocking non-vegans than it does about making sure it has the populous support to take on the animal cruelty in the animal food industry that it currently doesn’t have.

More vegans means more power against the people committing these crimes, but the more vegans there are, the less impact that “non-vegans pay people to kill animals for them to enjoy” kind of rhetoric actually has.

That’s a rhetoric veganfacts pushes. That’s why they jump down the throats of people discussing vegans as morally level with non-vegans. They were defending their own moral righteousness, not a movement that seeks to foster education toward better lives for the people they vilify.

Other vegans are doing that though. They educate. They facilitate and they’re tackling the issue of food availability, and they are honestly working their asses off to make a real change in the world.

And you’ll recognize those people when you start looking for the pattern. They’re the ones who acknowledge and understand why the vegan movement stalls the way it does. They’re the ones building community vegetable gardens and making sure people have food on their table before they even begin worrying about making sure that food is cruelty free.

They don’t use divisive or inflammatory language, and the word carnist is the last thing they’d think to call someone because they know that word mocks basic human needs and makes monsters out of people just so they can justify the claim that that’s what’s wrong with the world.

Veganfacts is not how veganism should look. Their rhetoric is not universal, and they do not deserve to be exemplified.

Veganism is good.

That person is not.