#<- in fiction but theyre both triggering topics i understand

[saltwatersweets]

there’s honestly so much to be said about suicide and suicidal ideation and how much it plays a role in the lowest parts of c!discduo’s respective storylines (the tower and the torture). c!tommy committing suicide was not the intended outcome of his treatment in exile but almost was the outcome. c!dream did not completely mean for c!tommy to try to kill himself, he wanted him to feel so alone that he viewed c!dream as his only friend. on the other hand, c!dream committing what amounted to suicide was the intended outcome of his torture, but was far from being the outcome. the nature of c!quackity’s torture was so that c!dream would have such a terrible life that he would view anything, even death as better than living like this (because that’s what he thought would happen if he gave up the revive book). it’s really interesting to me how suicide plays such a vital (if at times unspoken) role in their stories.

[natsmagi]

I'm sorry but you're wrong. you are wrong. proship is not just "an excuse to draw pedophilic and incestuous things." people have been doing it WITHOUT excuses since the beginning of fandom. some people create those things to process their trauma. of course it might be triggering to some people, but that's why it's tagged and stamped with warnings. so people can avoid it. kids and teenagers can be groomed with literally any media. anything. doesn't matter what it is. kids can be groomed with bluey as easily as with art of underage genshin characters or whatever. what I see as much more dangerous is the idea that there are things that can and should never be explored in fiction, that somehow it's still gross to engage in those things in a space where literally no real human beings are harmed. that's some evangelical thoughtcrime shit and I am not here for it.

I appreciate you saying you would never harass anyone over it, because you'd think that would be the bare minimum, but these days apparently it's not. and on what you said about "you shouldn't have to label yourself proship when you're just anti harrassment" yeah. I agree with that. but you kind of DO have to label yourself that way, because apparently doxxing is just a normal thing people do now and teenagers are getting the idea that harrassment is "righteous" if done to these specific kinds of "bad" people, often minorities and especially queer people.

I'm not saying you have to personally be comfortable with those kinds of content. it is totally understandable to want to avoid them entirely. but I would ask you, what percentage of people who enjoy those things would ever even CONSIDER bringing them into real life? I can pretty much guarantee you that the real percentage is incredibly small, and the proship community is NOT accepting to people who perpetuate real harm against real human beings.

idk. i don't mean to come off as hostile, it just really bothers me that it's come to this. there's nothing wrong with creating content that makes people uncomfortable. and let's just say it's not a coincidence that the people who are vehemently against it are using nazi dogwhistles.

oh jesus okay. i hear what youre saying and i do want to take your words to heart, so ill be trying to be as indepth with this as i can be

quickly though before we start i wanna comment on your last paragraph; the person who sent the ask later sent me a dm and we talked things over so both of us could get a better grasp of the situation. the person is a minor, and while i dont know how old they are, i do genuinely believe that this was an honest mistake on their part. they messaged me out of the kindness of their heart, and while maybe theyre slightly misguided in some areas, i think it is only right to treat each individual with respect and try to educate them when they perpetuate something harmful, especially when theyre young

ok, now lets go over this point by point

"some people create those things to process their trauma." yes! i am well aware of that, and i would never be against people creating vent art of the situations that traumatized them. my issue comes with posting it online for people who are genuinely into that sort of thing to see. maybe its just me but i personally wouldnt want to risk people getting off to my trauma, especially when ive now visualized it in such a personal way. if anything thatd be re-traumatizing for me. i dont see the point in having it so publicly available for anyone to see

"of course it might be triggering to some people, but that's why it's tagged and stamped with warnings. so people can avoid it." which is good! and i think it would be deeply unwise of someone who is uncomfortable with these topics to seek them out and engage with it. if triggering content is being made and it makes you uncomfortable its better to just leave it be and move on. that said; that doesnt make it any less upsetting to see, especially when its prominent. and people should be allowed to state that they still dont support it, just maybe dont harass the creator because of it

"what I see as much more dangerous is the idea that there are things that can and should never be explored in fiction, that somehow it's still gross to engage in those things in a space where literally no real human beings are harmed." in my post didnt i mention that i think dark topics should be explored too? maybe i phrased it poorly but yes i agree with this point. i do not think you or anyone else should be shamed for consuming dark media, even if it consists of fucked up topics like what tends to be the focus of proshipping. the thing is though; these topics need to be handled tastefully. they need to be handled with respect and empathy for the victims, or else itll just feel pornographic. if youre just writing detailed smut about a grown man with a child, what is it we're exploring? is it gonna go into the psychological effects that would leave on the child? was the amount of detail in the smut necessary? was the smut ever truly necessary to get the point of sexual assault across? all these things should be considered when dealing with these topics, because again, theyre VERY HEAVY and should be treated as such

"apparently doxxing is just a normal thing people do now and teenagers are getting the idea that harrassment is "righteous" if done to these specific kinds of "bad" people, often minorities and especially queer people." yes, it is a very unfortunate thing. this is not something i can defend. i can however shed some light on different sides to this though. most often these kids arent doing much more than hitting you with a mean jokey qrt, while only a small portion actually go out of their way to full-on harrass someone. neither of course is okay, but lets not act like this is something only these teens engage in. i have seen many proshippers go out of their way to leave comments on teens posts where they whine about proshipping about how theyre wrong and horrible people for thinking such things, sometimes even spamming them just to try and get a response so they can dunk on them with some Sick Own, as if theyre not arguing with literal kids online. no side is in the clear on this, so lets not act like one is holier than the other

"what percentage of people who enjoy those things would ever even CONSIDER bringing them into real life?" i dont doubt many proshippers wouldnt bring these fictional fantasies into the real world, what scares me is the audience it may attract. i.e. pedophiles and the like. you and your proshipper friends might be lovely people who would never even think of committing these crimes, but what about the silent onlookers? the percentage that actually WOULD consider it? the margain may be small, but should we not try eliminating it to the best of our abilities? now, you could argue that it is not your responsibility nor within your power who consumes your content, and id have to agree with that. but from a personal standpoint thats just not something i can get behind. maybe its my paranoia talking, but since the probability is still there its not something i can bring myself to support. you mentioned earlier that kids can be groomed by anything, and thats true. but my fear lies less with kids stumbling upon the content, and moreso actual pedos finding content to get off on and a safe space to discuss these fantasies, although having it be about fictional characters rather than real kids. yes, they will always find a way if theyre sick enough, but thats why i want it to at least be explicitly known that pedophilia is not respected and you will be shunned for it. so even if proshippers dont actually support it, i fear it gives pedophiles a place to indulge in their fantasies (and for even more claritys sake; i am not calling proshippers pedos)

"there's nothing wrong with creating content that makes people uncomfortable." i agree with you!! its okay to make content that makes people uncomfortable, theres art in that. art can be expressed in so many forms, and sometimes the intent IS to make the audience uncomfortable. but like ive stated; with these things you really have to handle it with utmost care. and i dont think the intent with this type of content tends to be to make the audience uncomfortable either? all i often tend to really see is people talking about how hot they find it, and i dont think that should be the takeaway from topics like this. again; its all about intent.

"and let's just say it's not a coincidence that the people who are vehemently against it are using nazi dogwhistles." but isnt preaching "theyre trying to take our freedom away!!" a right-wing dogwhistle too ?? the constant fearmongering i see in the proshipping community is concerning. making up stories just to make the other side look bad, claiming theyre silencing you, is this not what the right does??? why do i see it so often from the proshipping community???? again, both sides have faults. can we please stop acting like one is better than the other??? i frankly want no part in this discourse.

to finish this off though, i am sorry anon. i never want my account to feel like a place where people cant express themselves and be who they are. but i do still have my own morals and views. i have my own ideals, and i have my own principles. i do not identify with either anti or proship, its just the dangers of proshipping scares me more than the dangers of antis. of course both can get bad. my point was never to argue in favor of the other side, my point was only ever to let it be known that i dont condone proshipping. that is all

if i misrepresented your community im sorry. i am only one guy at the end of the day and theres only so much i can know on these topics while also only being 19 years old. theres much i dont know, so thats why im always willing to learn. but no matter how hard i try the fear of giving pedophiles a place in a community terrifies me. the mere thought is enough to make me scared for those younger than me out there.

it was never my intention to dictate how one should or should not consume media. you are free to do as you wish, i have no authority over you, these are just my reasons as to why it isnt something that i can support.

thank you though for taking your time to write to me. i hope ive made my stance clearer and have it known that i dont mean any malice. im just so deeply scared of more children getting harmed due to personal reasons and its genuinely bringing me to tears. thank you again

[floralkittygambler]

Reposting for reasons

Response to Honest’s post here: Doing this to spread this awareness more as I know theres a bit of a rift in the critical community - plus I really fucking go on. Im PISSED and I do apologise however it NEEDS urgent addressing. I know people will hate me for it but Im used to hate and honestly? Hating rather than helping to solve the issue only furthers my fucking point here. So yeah this is so more people are aware (no offense to any of those involved in said rift either, but this is an important message. Thank you for understanding and if I can do anything to make all sides comfortable, then please message me and I’ll do my upmost.) “ More awareness of this is needed. Even if it’s your favourite, you can’t justify their shit but rally against another’s shit. Have people tell you you’re experiences arent real or invalid because, like Husk, people have - in real life - shipped you with someone you are far from comfortable with but you still treat them like a person. Because you have basic respect. And people force you to accept harassment, touching, stalking, advances for THEIR satisfaction. People use you for their fantasies. But you’re just a ‘tsundere’ for it. Or you have addiction issues but people think being with another addict will ‘save’ you because you’re apparently too incompetent to save yourself. Love isnt some magic fuckin cure so stop romanticising it as a fuckin saviour. It’s gross and fuckin creepy. Get stalked and have someone NEVER accept your no just because you show youre still decent enough to not treat them shitty or any different from anyone else. Try having someone way older or way younger (both in morally fucked up ways) advance on you and people encourage that. People you’re supposed to feel safe around.

People touch you when you pull away or show discomfort. Follow you home. Have pictures of you and wont accept you dont like them like that and it’s not ‘playing hard to get’ or ‘the thrill of the chase’. Fuck. OFF. In fact, Im not only disappointed in the fandom. Im disappointed in the entire team who some should know better from their OWN personal experiences - or at least the bare minimal of being a fucking adult. Im disappointed in especially females (sorry idk whether girl or woman is more appropriate here-) who statistically are more likely to have experienced something similar at some point in their lives think this is a cute gay moment. No. Angel is made out as a fucking predator - Im not saying he is, Im saying that his persistence is very fucking unwelcome like one. People like Husk dont need that fucking invasiveness. They/We need patience and someone on our level. Angel’s I know are the fuckin polar opposite - and some of them I know are very sexually harassing, including unwanted touching. It’s a shitty way to present gay people. Gays are fuckin people. Some are cunts and some arent. It’s a HUMAN thing. But considering the shit theyve been subjected to, presenting a gay as a victim only to also show them as a perpetrator is insulting! And for those Ive seen argue this about how people like AD wouldnt know how to express their love normally and whatnot? His pig. His best friend. He’s in his fucking 30s. There are literal real life criminals who get molested as kids and then go on to molest kids. Not all who grow up like that turn into nonces. Stop just fucking STOP justifying and romanticising this bullshit! I used to see the good in AD but now he makes me fucking sick. Especially with my verrrrrry fucking real traumas and connections. But fuck me, eh? Because this fictional guy matters so much more. Fuck real victims. And whilst we’re at it, fuck AD too when it suits your fetishes! Sarcasm aside, the fans and the team need to straighten up their abhorrent behaviour. Stolas. Fucking clearly having an affair, knowingly fucking up his daughter’s mental health and bribing a guy into sex who only wants the book and nothing more. He even has a fucking warning button over Stolas- Guys, how do you think any of this is cute? Even the team gross me out- I genuinely see potential and talent and it’s all gone to shit to satisfy horny teens, horny adults, and literally everyone who doesnt for the life of them understand being an adult is more than sex, drugs, violence and swears! I REALLY want to keep enjoying HB/HH but it’s getting harder and harder with such ignorant and bordering lazy creators (note: lazy as in wont do the fucking research or actually listen to real criticism and victims), such despicable fans (yeah, some HDers fuckin mocked that they triggered my ED, yet they had the fucking NERVE to support Angel’s potential ED AND laugh and blame me for me getting treated so badly for actually having the balls to call Angel and the teams hypocrisy. I got told to kill myself, that my problems arent real - oh but Angels apparently is! Which... They *are* but AD isnt real so technically only onlookers will suffer and not a drawing  - and they just excused their toxic behaviours. These people are like “aww poor angie babey!” yet fuckin INSULT sex workers. All this red in Hazbin yet it feels everyone and they mama colour blind. The issues are getting worse and fans are outright becoming EVIL, VILE, Vindictive little bullies - from kids to adults. You SHOULD be ashamed of yourself if you conduct yourself in such a manner. And you need to readjust your attitudes and behaviours because the only fuckers getting hurt are actual fucking victims. Ever been violated and been gaslit so much you STILL fucking question it’s reality? So you drown that shit out yet somehow it’s effects still hit you? Fetishise it. Make it your uwu gae couple goals, you’re no better than people believing Harley and the Joker werent toxic af. If this shit happened to you, most of you would actually SEE where we’re all coming from. Also, stop making gay a fetish - you’re like those creepy old men in the alley heckling lesbians to make out so they can wank off. Gays, no ALL the LGBT+ are fucking people too. So dont give me that bullshit then start turning everything just gay or just straight to mentally wank off to. It’s degrading and dehumanising. And yes, fiction does effect reality. You crush on a fictional character? Mourn one? Support one? Hell, fuckin jerk off to one - that’s affecting reality. Remember how in fiction all blacks were treated as villians? Look how theyre treated IRL. JAWS, great classic unfortunately their was a spike in shark killings over a fucking movie - the shark in the movie wasnt even real for the most part because they dont behave like that! (Also the animatronic was so shit they genuinely had so many issues - I think they even took to naming each one! Some fun trivia there!). Tiger sharks are more nasty than great whites as tiger sharks will hunt and eat a human. Great whites prefer seals and dislike human flesh, they just mistake us for seals. Hell, theres the toothless basking shark - theyre often SWAM WITH by divers for being so friendly. Yet Jaws made people think all sharks are bloodlusting over humans. Slenderman was created for a fucking contest and that influenced a stabbing (NOT Victor’s fault). Watch a horror movie that isnt based on a real life event and tell me that at least ONE has left you peaking over your shoulder. Stella may be a bitch - we dont know for certain - but try getting cheated on. Y’know what? Try growing up in such a broken home like Octavia. Yeah reaaaaaal fucking cute now, huh? Funny how as well y’all petition for male victims to be taken seriously then laugh when fictional males experience this abuse, further adding to stigma. You can be hit on by the hottest mf on the planet but if you arent interested, that should be respected! Also we’ve all been inspired by at least one fictional character so yeah. Yknow, since I was little Ive been fighting for sex worker and homeless rights. But HH/HB treatment of both leave a bitter taste in my mouth. I’ll still fully support sex workers and the homeless, but that’s the fucking effect this show is having. Bearing in mind I wont ever share everything Ive been through - and I shouldnt fucking have to in order to be believed and validated (obvs proof is required in a legal case but that’s a whole other topic). Why should I share MY fucking pain especially when you fuckers have belittled and triggered it more so? We have our rights to our secrets but fuck ME you lot NEED to start acting appropriately and like decent fucking humans. ‘iTs HeLl’ yeah and welcome to Earth- the team and yourselves live HERE. You obide by THESE rules. And as someone with beliefs (and a LOT of ancient fucking texts and studies on this shit) their Hell isnt even a proper Hell! It’s closer to purgatory and even then it’s not. Regardless, it’s a poorly built world with the lore consistently changing per episode and tweet, with many plot holes, and is apparently easy to get into - even via accidentally watching porn according to a stream. If youre gonna parade youre a fucking expert and research into demonology and use real believed figures, at least get THAT right. In fact, Lucifer and Lilith (and Stolas tbf) are ESPECIALLY risky as theyre a lot more complex than most easy access texts will tell you. Likewise, Stolas’s first introduction and main focus is sex. He’s one of the FEW Goetia demons that dont have some involvement in relationship issues at ALL. He’s known for astrology, crystals and herbs but hes also known to aid MONEY troubles (it’s lesser known but it’s true! HB Stolas is an insult to the Prince). Turning Vodou into something evil is vile considering it’s powerful and liberated slaves. Pentagrams are nothing to do with Satan, they’re magic based sigils. Upside down cross is the symbol of a SAINT. It’s just some edgy attempt to trick people into believing they know more than they do. Also you should NEVER dabble and doodle sigils without knowing the meanings or respecting what they behold. Vox and Val, real fuckin cute way to make them look like a stupid fucking highschool drama instead of a fucking SEX TRAFFICKER (note: real pimps often target YOUNG folks too - aka minors - and groom them into sex work. Theres different types of pimp. Viv has shown barely any understanding of ‘the game’ and its a fucking insult to injury. Yes we KNOW what a fucking pimp and prozzie are! We dont need to see it. We need REAL AWARENESS.) and a fucking scheming bastard of a CEO salesman botman. And yet even THEN lets go a step further and make some yandere wuv on boyfweind aboose! Fuck off- Now I love a good anime but these tropes are getting fucking dangerous now. And unrealistic to real love and relationships. Kids nowadays know fuck all on a healthy relationship (neither did the fuckin 50s tbf) and Im seeing more romaticism and glorifying abusive situations. Like the show ‘You’. Ok, there’s a fuckin bloke online who slaughtered innocents and kidnapped yet people commented how cute he is on his IG and that they want to be kidnapped or killed by him next. Dont believe me? Look up Peter Manfredonia Connecticut and the comments people left him and then tell me why shit like whats being presented in HH/HB ISNT fucking concerning - because it is. For a series about redemption, it’s brilliant at the opposite (Quote from the creator herself, Viv has posted that it’s influencing her bad choices. Even as a joke, proof’s in the pudding). And the overall focus on sex in the way Viv does is so immature and really creepy, and this is from an ADULTS perspective. From one adult to another, Im concerned as to why any of them think this is a normal fixation. Then again they’ve hired quite a large amount of dodgy folks and even a child. Most of this shit gets avoided with a basic background check like most companies run. I DO like Hazbin. Or the premise. I love some of the cast and spite the others. In Helluva, I just like a tiny portion of the cast. And I critique it so harshly because Viv DOES need a wakeup slap, grounding to reality, people who arent going to big her up or kiss her arse for once and shape her up to be the best she can be. The actually reach and even surpass her potential. And to reach where you need to be, there’s a lot of harsh lessons youll face. That’s life. Shes chosen one of the most HEARTLESS industries and if she blocks out critique as ‘hate’ then she’s not strong enough and wont last. It’s just another unprepped YanDev again (except I dont believe Viv to be a nonce. Even with her dodgy past and dodgy present, I think her perspective on sex and relationship with sexuality is FAR from healthy BUT I dont believe she’s a pedophile. Ive bled my fair share and so far, I just think her sex perspective isnt healthy or mature for her age. But there’s little to nothing to suggest actual noncery - dont worry about accusations there. But YanDev is totally a dirty predator. Just clearing that up). Viv NEEDS some harshness and stability if she wants to do things right. And it’ll make her fucking cry but if she loves these projects as much as she claims to, then you’ll sacrifice blood, sweat and tears for that shit. Even the strongest points are mediocre at best when properly observed. She CAN do more, but she’ll have to face the harsh music. Viv wont see this, but if she does, I dont care if it upsets her. Why? Because this is that much of an issue - something she’s cultivated - that she needs to take action and not ignore it or be secretive about it. She needs to grow up and get tougher skin. Im not saying this to cause her pain. In fact, I wouldnt waste my fucking limited time if I DIDNT care. Trust me, I have duties to be met at a certain quota every single day. I say this shit only because I give a shit and care. If we met, she’d fucking hate me. But people like me are good for shaping people up to their potential. And we arent always this ‘tough love’ either. But when someone needs that level of harshness to help themselves, we’re not afraid to lose people or cause upset if the results end up being the best for them. If she ever saw this, she needs to re fucking evaluate her message, her story, and those she’s choosing to welcome into her circle. And all Im seeing is one rookie mistake after the other. Her paid patreon discord. Just like the messages Honest has posted on her side of being harassed (not in Vivs fyi), Ive experienced shit and bullying and even stay silent on their for being attacked for a group I fuckin paid to be in and yet I feel isolated. It’s all arsekissing and ‘thank you viv’ (thats an actual channel-) and it feels like a place of borderline worship and people trying to appease her 24/7 whilst kicking others with different opinions down. There’s so many I love but I aint kissin yer fuckin arse. Ask the closest friend I have - we’re fucking raw and wont just side with each other just because. We’ll call each other out if we think they’ve fucked up and then help each other build themselves up better. Because real fuckin people who actually care wont just want to be adored by you. They’ll care enough to point out your bullshit and help you, even if they upset you at the time. They’re real and upfront with you. People like us arent always the easiest to be close to either because we arent afraid of upsetting someone if it’s in their best interest and to help them. Likewise, we dont go out looking for fights either. Most times, we’re fuckin soft bastards- All this shit listed is the fuckin surface level of the real life hell of this fandom. And unsurprisingly, those who experience little to no toxicity have always been higher on that popularity ‘food chain’ - enough admirers and shared opinions that people wanna arse kiss regardless of their OWN feelings as well as neutral perspectives. I’d say you’re the lucky fans, but you’re not. You’re sheltered, and that isnt always the best way to be sadly. As for the fans. If Ive upset you. Well... I dont care. Because many of you have actively sought me out and weaponised my traumas against me. You never cared about my feelings then. Why should I care about yours? Im not doing this out of malice. Im fed up of humans behaving so pathetically yet claiming to be high and mighty. Most of you have been arseholes to those in and out of the community. The victims and non-victims alike. Hardly any of you considered once my real suffering. You put a drawing over a life. Many lives. You had the audacity to tell me Im full of shit. Some even using my real traumas to make a mockery of me and those Im around with a very similar history. Some with traumatic histories that differ from my own. You hardly ever considered the real lives of those effected. So no, Im not sorry for having the fucking balls to this day to still stand up for our rights and give us a voice that’s long been stolen. Im not sorry for being a fucking victim. Im not sorry for saying what desperately NEEDS voicing. And Im not sorry for not conforming to you or any fandom just to belong. We deserve better than to constantly be your fuckin arse monkeys (well... the trope is butt monkey but yknow-) and to be mistreated, misrepresented and harmed by you. You’re no different to the school bullies who give speeches on anti-bullying day. And I hope every single one of you starts looking into yourselves and improving. PS: Depending on the texts you read, Lucifer is said to have been redeemed or to be redeemed. Fun fact to haunt yalls with~ “