#< target audience but has nothing to do with byler

[lighthouseas]

rb for a bigger sample size

[apocalyptic-byler]

all im saying is that this

reminds me of this scene

in which the main focus of that scene were these three

which reflects this picture

🤫🤫🤫

[shortcakezzzz]

are pinterest people ok 😟

creds to whoever posted that idk 😭

[miikewheelers]

if vecna taunts mike with what happened to max and/or bob in s5

[meowjames]

i really like mileven in s1 and s2 bc theyre cute being dumb clingy kids, but I KNOW that they will not be endgame bc when they both are two separate people and jane knows more about herself, when she becomes not a kid but a girl, is when the problems start. mikes likes more the idea that she has of her, and jane dont deserve that.

[retrocitizen]

New art piece!!

[will80sbyers]

The TWT Byler is likely responsible for the sudden surge of leaks that appear to go against Byler endgame, largely due to the gradual acceptance by the general audience that Byler might be the ultimate outcome. It's highly detrimental for the Duffers to explicitly reveal the direction of this love triangle, as it would spoil a crucial plot twist. What's ironic is that most leaks circulating on Twitter are heavily centered around Mileven/Byler, which strikes me as unusual because the show's core mysteries are far deeper than just who Mike ends up with in the end like why can't we get leaks about Max, Vecna's story, one connection that Will has with Vecna?,... Why do we mostly get stuffs linked to that love triangle? So strange.

This leads me to believe that the production deliberately feeds fake leaks to leakers, although undoubtedly some leakers are simply fabricating information. The Byler fandom is the biggest and the most vocal fandom of stranger things so those leakers know which fandom to target for views.

We'll see! It is strange tho because I've personally asked plot questions to one of the leakers and their source refused to say anything about that... I asked about the monsters, El and Hopper and other things and nothing relevant was said AT ALL... So like why are they only leaking byler Vs. Milven......

[hermionesmoon]

byers hate/lack of media literacy/homophobia within the stranger things fandom:

this is such a braindead take like tell me you can’t understand media literacy without telling me you can can’t understand media literacy

1. the blatant homophobia- do they even know who the target audience of stranger things is for? like if you have such a big issue with gay characters then stranger things isn’t the show for you

2. calling will and johnathan stale and boring/not understanding will being gay IS a big part of the story- this is actually so insane it’s like these people watch the show with their eyes closed. when johnathan found out about the demagorgan in season 1 he immediately tried to find it to kill it with nancy they came up with a whole plan to capture it at only 16/17 years old. as for will i’m genuinely so mad cause there’s no way. without will there wouldn’t be a stranger things, will MAKES the show in season 1 he went missing and everything revolved around finding him, in season 2 the mind flyer was in him and most of the plot yet again was revolves around him, now in season 3 he did have less of a story which i dislike BUT it did show how he was STILL connected to the mind flayer and could warn everyone when he was near the season also showed how wills childhood was took away from him and how he wanted nothing more but than to have it back also it showed will and mikes friendship changing in season 4 it showed will growing up and realizing he can’t change that he’s gay and he has to learn to except it (which is definitely why the commenter is mad cause they don’t like gay characters obviously), it showed how good a a brother johnathan is the will and how their bond also strengthened, and when they went back to hawkins it tells us that will is STILL connected to vecna which will obviously play a big part in season 5. and i know i said i wasn’t gonna go too much into byler but if we’re being serious byler is literally such a big part in the show in season 1 they wouldn’t have found el if mike didn’t want to go look for will, in season 2 mike stayed by wills side and showed them growing closer, in season 3 we saw a change in mike and wills friendship it seemed like mike was pushing will away for some reason after being best friends since they were 5 then he randomly brought up will not liking girls why would he ever have that thought?? in season 4 we watch mike come to california acting weird and very distant with will to the point where he just started ignoring him for the most part hmm i wonder why??? also he brought up AGAIN about him and will only being friends when will never said otherwise and after that we just see them getting closer and closer while mileven crumbled.

3. saying all will wants to do is play dnd- oh i wonder why.. maybe because at the young age of 12 he had his whole life change in only one night and was trapped in another dimension for a week WHILE BEING HUNTED,HUNGRY,COLD,AND TIRED. in season 2 he was only 13 but was still traumatized about what happened to him on top of still being connected to the upside down and literally living inbetween worlds while also having to deal with bullying then gets possessed and in season 3 he’s 14 the summer finally came and it seems like everything is back to normal so will just wants his childhood back and to play the game he loves with his friends and you’re really gonna get mad over it??

4. johnathan is annoying but shipping stancy- that’s more of an opinion but it’s still not true and simply weird cause johnathan might be annoying to you but he still loves nancy and treats her right unlike steve did (not hating on steve just being realistic) in season 1 steve was just trash and let his friends call nancy a derogatory word in season 2 steve didn’t care that nancy’s best friend had died and wasn’t there for her the way she needed and in season 4 steve was being weird to nancy even tho she had a boyfriend telling her he wants to have 6 kids with her??? like come on now

5.hopes will comes out and everyone forgets about it cause it’s not relevant- this is actually the most insane thing i talked about this in number 2 but i’m gonna talk about how many stranger things fans are homophobic like how the hell- stranger things was created for the freaks/geeks/and oppressed they already have 2 confirmed gay characters and even more queer-coded characters. there’s so many relationships in the show but you’re mad about a boy being gay when it hasn’t even been verbally said in the show while all the other characters in straight relationships are shown all the time when it’s “not relevant” also i noticed how they didn’t say anything about ronin being a lesbian even tho she’s the only one that has come out.. so the person is probably another weirdo who fetishizes lesbians while hating gay men.

can’t wait for them to watch season 5 where most of the season will and mike are together and start dating and hopefully jancy fully comes back together and is endgame

also why do these people act like characters have to be doing something every second for them to be good characters? just because these ppl can’t use context clues and aren’t understanding doesn’t mean certain characters are “stale”

[thestobingirlie]

To answer your Byler question: it’s about the slow burn of it all and about the audience that the story will reach. I don’t really know what you mean by “with gay rep the way it is now” because the state of gay rep rn is just two characters getting together after a few episodes of no buildup. Regardless of Will and Mike being white (which I’m going to assume is what you’re getting at), there are very few modern gay stories out there that spend this long on a slow build and the careful construction of a seasons-long sexuality arc. That is what would make Byler so unique if it ever becomes canon, compounded by the fact that ST is the most mainstream of mainstream shows. This isn’t Heartstopper or Schitt’s Creek or another gay show whose audience is limited because it’s targeted specifically to gay people — Everyone and their mother watches it, and that means that everyone will end up witnessing Byler’s story if it happens. That is what would make this special and groundbreaking. 

Of course, no one should be dismissing the importance of Robin as a character on her own, and lesbophobes claiming that Robin and Vickie mean nothing is unfair, but your point about it being the other way around (aka Byler meaning nothing Vickie and Robin as a couple) doesn’t make any sense, as Rovickie has had barely had 5 minutes of screen time together compared to the way Byler has been built up since S1. Even Robin and Nancy got more screen time than them, hence Rovickie’s complete lack of popularity. Stranger Things had the opportunity to make Vickie important in s4 and chose not to do it. It’s no different than any other show, where as you said, the wlw couple is just in the background. It’s nice that ST included a love interest for Robin, but it would have been more meaningful if she was actually a character in her own right. 

(And Robin and Vickie are also white, btw.) 

okay.

first, i would like you to watch more gay shows, because from the sounds of it you are not very well versed. but that’s okay!

second, i mentioned will and mike are white because while there are a lot of white mlm ships around nowadays, that number obviously drops with gay characters of colour, and i wanted to be clear i was taking that into consideration.

third, and i presume this is where our opinions majorly differ, i don’t think will’s sexuality arc has been handled as well as it could have been. and i think if the majority of the audience is unable to recognise that mike is going through a sexuality arc, then byler won’t be recognised as a slowburn anyway.

fourth, other shows have been popular and included gay characters and couples. and people are already calling stranger things a “gay show” because they have one lesbian and one gay character. though i think it’s very sweet that you think people, at the bare minimum, watching byler happen will make byler groundbreaking. a ship isn’t groundbreaking just because it’s been seen by a certain amount of people.

now, you seem… riled by my comparison of rockie to byler lmao. i think you misunderstood my tags. so i suppose there’s a few things to address with this too lol.

so. i very very much so doubt byler has been built from s1, because the duffers didn’t plan past s1. we were never going to see those characters again. the duffers are largely making this shit up as they go along.

a lot of bylers i’ve seen on tumblr seem to have this… obsession with making stranger things the mike and will show, and it just isn’t. and i think they’re doing a disservice to the characters and the ship by imagining this importance.

and i don’t think rockie not having a main part is a bad thing. i want my gay characters to exist past their sexuality. rockie isn’t groundbreaking! so many ships have come before it lmao. but it doesn’t need to be groundbreaking. i’m okay with vickie being introduced this season as her love interest, and robin having a life and arc outside of vickie. that’s how most side romances go. that’s what happened with dustin and suzie! if vickie receives no time at all in s5 and rockie end up together off screen, then yes, obviously i’ll be annoyed at the lack of time given to them. but that’s a problem for future me.

my point was rockie having their moment, and dating, and us watching it throughout s5 would mean more to me than byler happening. not that everyone shouldn’t care about byler rep lmao.

(and i know rockie are white, babe, but wlw shows are being cancelled regardless of if they’re both white)

[hypezombies]

Stranger Things becoming so mainstream is simultaneously the best and the worst thing to happen to the show. The best cause the Duffers got the chance to bring to life the full vision and can expand on it as much as they want. And the worst because this way the audience is full of people who do not understand the show and are most likely gonna throw senseless critics at it, instead of anything actually good. And I'm not even talking about the zero media literacy. It's a HUGE issue in this fandom but it's not the only one.

The show has been advocating against bullying and conforming since the first season and the fandom is filled with people who act EXACTLY like the bullies in the show and shame others when they don't fit their standards of conformity. Believe it or not the Eddie Munson stans that everyone loves to make fun of are the real target audience of the show. Nerds, outcasts, people who like to engage in fandom culture, cosplay, analyse, theorize. Not the people who are used to consuming only shallow media that is meant to be taken for exactly what is shown and nothing more and who never had trouble fitting in in their lives. Not to mention the Eddie stans act exactly like people in every other fandom do, but most people who like Stranger Things have no idea of what normal fandoms are like and act superior for it too.

And shows, movies, books, fandoms and so on, are a form of escapism for so many people, but instead you can't even enjoy a piece of fanart, or character analysis, or whatever, without stumbling upon someone making fun of others simply for having a different view on something and, way worse, throwing homophobic, racist and ableist insults for this same reason. These are people who have always had everything catered to them and are too stuck in their view of the world to even realize that this show is not for them.

Troy was shoved to the ground and humiliated in front of the whole school for being homophobic and got a broken arm for being ableist. Similarly, Angela got her nose busted for being ableist. This is what the creators of the show think of garbage people like them. And instead we have people like some Mlvn shippers who are openly homophobic, racist and ableist to Bylers, simply because they don't like their little heteronormative, already seen a thousand times before, ship. And then they turn around and throw the senseless ableist and sexist accusations whenever someone doesn't agree with them on Mlvn being endgame or doesn't like them as a ship. This is the literal real life version of Angela making a presentation on Helen Keller, pretending to give a shit about disabled people, while bullying and humiliating El for her disabilities. And this is NOT me saying that you shouldn't ship Mlvn or stuff like that, this is me saying that that part of the fandom is more often than not the problem. And, again, it's because the majority of them are the people who always fit in and always have everything catered to them. It's not a coincidence that they are the ones not willing to even consider other possibilities.

And like, EVERY protagonist in the show is an outcast who doesn't fit in society's standards for one reason or another (let's ignore Steve for a moment). And while people who are like the protagonists get shamed in the fandom, they get rewarded in the show whenever they are themselves and don't try to conform.

The show reached an audience that was never in the mind of the creators, who are so used to always being the target of everything and are actively making the experience worse for everybody. And you just know they're most likely gonna say the dumbest shit when s5 comes out, instead of bringing any good criticism to the table, because they're incapable, or simply REFUSE to see the show and it's themes for what they are meant to

[lighthouseas]

"will is so pocket sized in s1/s2"

no. you are Wrong. he is pocket sized in Every Season . i am picking 15 year old will up and putting him in my coat pocket for safekeeping. i am giving him kisses on the forehead and kerfuffles of the hair and big bear hugs and fuzzy blankets. he is always pocket sized as long as you aren't a coward

[threewaywithdelusion]

I truly don’t understand people who think Byler is going to be canon. This is nothing against people who ship Byler, because I absolutely see what would draw people towards that ship.

But some people genuinely think it’s going to happen in season 5 and that’s what I can’t wrap my head around. Stranger Things is a show written by, as far as we know, two straight men. It’s a mainstream show and it’s target audience is everyone from teens to adults. A large portion of this audience is going to be straight.

The Duffer brothers are probably patting themselves on the back for their excellent queer rep. They have two whole queer characters in the main cast. I think there’s a decent chance Robin will end up with Vickie, in which case we have three characters who are confirmed gay and one gay couple ending up happily together. The Duffer brothers have been at least exploring the fact that Will could be gay since season 1, when Joyce said that Lonnie used to call him gay slurs. They committed to it in season 4, but also in a very subtle way. Queer audiences saw this coming years ago. I rewatched season 4 with my parents and had to explain to them that Will was crushing on Mike. (I straight-up said those words and they said, “you mean… he likes Eleven?”). Straight audiences are not picking up on some Will/Mike love story. And yes, I don’t think Mileven was super well-written in Season 4. But that’s a problem with the writing itself, not proof that the Duffer brothers don’t intend for Mileven to be endgame.

Also, Mike is arguably The Main Character. Especially with how he was framed in S1. Modern shows might make one (or several) main characters or series regulars queer to show how inclusive they are and appeal to queer audiences. But I truly don’t believe we’re at a point where you can make the main character queer without alienating straight audiences (especially if your fan base is not just younger people). Maybe that’s cynical of me, but I think people want to watch shows with queer representation but that aren’t Queer Shows. And that’s what Stranger Things would be if Byler happened, because both Will and Mike (two of the main leads) would be queer and together.

Even if the Duffer brothers wanted to make Byler happen from a creative perspective (which I seriously doubt), it would be a terribly marketing move. I just don't believe we live in a world (at least yet) where predominately straight audiences want to watch shows with large gay casts. (Of course there are exceptions, but I'm speaking in generalities). So while I totally think there's space for Byler in fan fiction and that it's a fascinating dynamic to explore, it bewilders me that people think it's going to happen for real. I think this comes from being in fandom spaces and/or interacting mostly with queer people.

The majority of the world isn't the fandom and also isn't queer. We're still years away from a time where a hugely successfully, mainstream money-maker like Stranger Things can make two of its main characters queer and in love.

I adore the world y'all are living in though. I don't think we're there -- but I hope some day we will be.

Addendum because I wrote this quickly: I also think Mike/Eleven are a really important relationship that is central to the show. That's not to say that Will and Mike aren't, because I do think they have one of the closest friendships on the show and that there's something special about their bond. But the show, from the beginning, has centered around Mike and El as the protagonists for the kids' generation. Their love for each other and trust in each other has been a huge characteristic of both Mike and El and a huge driving force for the plot. They haven't adequately set up a pivot from that central relationship, and I don't think they could do it in the final season without doing a disservice to the past four seasons, but especially to El, who is the center of this whole show.

[blognarrymybabes]

My mini Rant !!!

I have couple of questions to ask duffers with all this mess in the vol2 regarding Byler and El. Now, looking at the tag I do have some hope but I still don’t know if I trust duffers at all.

Why did they involve Will in that mess of Milkvan relationship?

They had the opportunity with cali plot to get Will a love interest. They introduced so many characters this season why not one more ?

And if that is such a pain then they could have shown Will crushing on some guy in the new school or finding someone attractive(like they showed Mike idolizing Eddie).

This would have clearly indicated audience towards Will’s sexuality and then later they could have addressed this with a coming out scene with either Jonathan or Mike. This way they could have kept all of Will’s inner turmoil the same that would make him vecna’s target.

If they are sticking to Milkvan Endgame, they could have focused more on Will’s connection to Vecna rather than involving him into their relationship.

I noticed the pattern they have for every season for Milkvan : they split at the start of the season and they end up together at the end.

Now I am confused whether the Duffers think that is romantic, creates some tension between the main couple and that works, that’s their whole story

Let’s for a second consider that their idea of Mike and Eleven. Then why not make their relationship healthy with each season. Why make their reunion rushed in someone way. Because god they have so many problems !!!!

1. They never learn from their mistakes instead just kiss each other at the end

2. They never talk, no actual deep heart to hearts ever

( this is my biggest problem with them! All the other couples have meaningful heart to hearts that showcases the problems they are going through, the character struggles and them working on it.

why not the main couple????!)

3. They never speak the truth to each other. They lie, a lot ! maybe out of fear of losing each other but they pretend to be someone they are not

4. They have very different ideas of each other and therefore different expectations.

5. Mike only sees her as a superhero. Even in his monologue that vision of his doesn’t change when in their fight Eleven clearly states she doesn’t like it. And during his monologue that should have changed, which it should if he loves eleven because then it looks hero worshipping , him still thinking of her as E.T and that is not ideal.

Now looking at Jopper, Jancy and Lumax. Especially, Jopper and Lumax they can write a healthy relationship. They can write a good slow burn. And they can showcase relationship problems and know how to tackle them.

They just don’t do it for Mike and Eleven.

Honestly, I think the entire Milkvan fans don’t ship Mike and El they are more into Millie and Finn. They love the two leads and they want them to be together (no hate to anyone this is just my personal opinion)

If Milkvan is the ship the audience is supposed to root for. If Milkvan is true love and love conquers all. If Milkvan is the endgame then why the love triangle?!

Leave Will alone. No need to add him into it. Show him as this miserable kid, never happy with now his ‘one-sided’ love and his feelings that were used for that shitty monologue

There was no need for that. Period.

But they did !

That’s what gets me !!

If I have to trust duffers and the whole subtext, the whole narrative then I believe they are trying to showcase how Milkvan doesn’t work, how it is not true love. Then the fact that eleven doesn’t defeat vecna after monologue, them not talking after whole confession that Eleven desperately wanted would makes sense.

Especially considering all the problems above and the side by side build up of Byler in vol1

Also, the whole switch in Mike’s character. If they don’t like or want Byler then Mike could still be Will’s bestfriend, supportive and still the same Mike from season2 now just in a relationship, has a girlfriend. Nothing has to change.

But they didn’t.

He flips between Will and El showing us two completely different versions of him when he is alone with either. That for me is obvious in all of the Byler scenes and especially the ones when Mike reunites with Eleven (this includes the Pineapple pizza scene)

If they wanted substance for Will’s main character era or want to showcase him with the heaviest trauma then he already has a lot of that!! This unrequited love wasn’t necessary.

My worry for Will’s character is that they will make him struggle to either make him sacrifice himself or just sideline him with Eleven coming to his rescue.

That is another problem I have with the duffers, the blatant importance to Eleven’s character in the series. I love her, I do. But it’s just so much detailed backstory, so much showcasing of her relationship with other characters and emphasis on her that from season3 it felt more like her show. This sidelined other characters especially the original main characters both Mike and Will.

The other characters have their separate storylines that doesn’t involve her so that is good.

But Mike and Will’s storyline are completely intertwined with hers. This way atleast Mike gets showcased although poorly as only her boyfriend.

And Will’s character gets more sidelined due to him in love with Mike’s.

They could have had a much better storylines for these two character separate from her.

Now with vol2 I don’t know where to stand. I worry they won’t do Will justice, rectify Mike or even go for Byler.

I feel this is why a lot of Bylers are a mess right now because the narration, character placements, subtexts and last scenes from vol2 point towards Byler endgame. But they also held no clear indication of Mike’s feelings.

I feel if we had even a slight peek into Mike’s mind we would know for sure where this is headed for us.

Maybe that is the point ? They want to keep the suspense

But then it also comes as of one-sided Byler which then paints Mike as a horrible, self absorbed person if he truly is straight and in love with Eleven

My biggest question is that His contradictions are intentional or just bad writing ?

Also it makes it hard to hope for Byler when Milkvan is so in the face and loud !

These are my thoughts for now, please let me know what you guys think in the comments !! I would really like to know your perspective.

[hawkinsschoolcounselor]

I believe in Byler / the DID theory, but I somewhat agree with fans who think it's currently too obscure. I just rewatched s2 and while, yes, it's undercut in s3, viewers are ABSOLUTELY encouraged to believe Mike loves El romantically. You can't blame viewers for buying what they've been sold, and being confused by an apparent 180 later on. Mike pushes Will to dance with random girl, and there are multiple instances of him pining for El in a way that seems more than survivor's guilt. 🐺

"“To be clear, I see a lot of Byler in s2 too. And I understand the show gets renewed season by season, and the Duffers have to create a piece of media that can stand alone, if they never get to tell their full story. As with season one. But if we're right about their planned endgame, they need to kick it up a notch and address some of the things that will confuse the audience (like Mike's sexuality) head on in dialogue. They need to start spelling this stuff out 🐺

The last thing anyone wants is for the reaction to such at bond re-established. 🐺 beautiful, important love story to be one of fan backlash. There will always be a certain amount of that but I truly believe it was fueled by a lot of the choices in s2. After Will's recovery Mike barely seems to look at him, for instance, while we get long, longing shots of him looking at El. It truly seems as if Will's special place in his heart evaporates the minute she walks back through that door. We need that bond re-established. 🐺

I don't mean to sound like a Debbie Downer, but I am a little afraid the Duffer's will sacrifice the story for the sake of the big shocking twist. S4 will tell a lot. If that season doesn't do major work in building up Byler, I just don't see how it won't all feel so eleventh hour in s5. I love picking over the show in detail on here, but the story DOES need to be cohesive to a general audience, and I understand why people worry it won't be, or the theory won't happen at all. 🐺" Well, this is quite the thing to wake up to on my long weekend. I suppose I might as well tackle it right away since you were nice enough to include little wolf emojis.

I've shared many of the doubts you have expressed here in the past. It's only been over time that my belief in Mike and Will's relationship has been strengthened. There's nothing wrong with being doubtful. Popular media has long marginalized gay characters and issues and caricatured them even when they were included. It's only normal to be a bit skeptical even when it seems like there's a story being built.

I was initially disappointed by season 3, but, with time and discussions with others, I came to see what the Duffers were going for. There was actually quite a lot in there that supported Mike and Will having feelings for each other, while also showing that Mike and El were both worse off while dating. Are we to believe that a bunch of 14 year olds really understand their feelings? No, especially when feelings involve being gay in the 80s or when your concept of a love and relationships comes from watching soap operas at 12/13 after growing up in isolation.

I suggest that you check out this post of mine if you haven't already, “Why do you lie?”: A look at a gay Mike Wheeler. It covers how Mike's existing portrayal can lead to a gay reveal without it being contradictory. There are reasons that Mike shows such intense concern for Will only to latch onto El once things calm down, at least in my conceptualization of it. In my opinion, Mike is confused and scared, so his mind is shifting his feelings onto a more socially appropriate target. If I had to pick, I'd probably say this was my best post. Feel free to holler back if you're still skeptical.

As for the Duffers sacrificing story for twists, I wouldn't worry. The Duffers have shown that they are highly skilled writers, so far. To me, it would be a bigger twist that they'd pull such a move. In this case, I think the "twist" is that fans are so used to conventional expectations (tropes) that they miss what is right in front of them. The Duffers have been subverting tropes since season 1. In fact, they seem to thrive on it.

I'll also mention that She-Ra didn't set sail with the ships until its final season, but the signs were always there. While I'd prefer we don't get a dramatic reveal in the grand finale like we did there, it's worth mentioning that once one saw that Adorra and Catra had feelings for each other, those earlier moments become more clear. I think many Stranger Things fans are going to be able to see those earlier signs after the fact, and, hopefully, it leads some to question heteronormativity.

[lighthouseas]

poorly edited st + tumblr posts bc i think im hilarious