#+Guthmere +Oberon

[anderstrevelyan]

Why am I just noticing months later that Blaze Elin (who lets you over the bridge into Wyrm's Rock) confirms I was right in a single sentence??

Why has no one ever told me this???

Gortash murders the Parliament of Peers.

Have you ever wondered exactly what's going on with all the dead bodies in the Wyrm's Rock audience hall, if you leave and come back after Gortash's coronation?

I did some in-game research while working on a fic recently, and in the name of sparing anyone else from having to lay all this out, too—here's a list of the victims, and some notes-based educated guessing on Gortash's motivation here.

(Beyond Iron Counsul Nuff's summary in the screenshot above: "My lord requires a clear path to his magnificent future. We cut away the troublesome bramble.")

Lord Petric Amber

Lord Amber's Bodyguard

Lady Ailis Belt

Lady Haeril Birch

Baron Callem Bormul

Lady Alia Durinbold

Lady Durinbold's Bodyguard

Lady Durinbold's Attendant

Lord Sarken Eomane

Admiral Peil Hullhollyn

Lady Winstra Hullhollyn

Lord Raylen Jannath

Lord Jannath's Bodyguard

Duke Dillard Portyr

Lord Portyr's Attendant

Lord Portyr's Bodyguard

Lady Beatrice Provoss

Lord Myer Ravenshade

Lady Silifrey Sashenstar

Lord Rugger Shattershield

Lord Shattershield's Bodyguard

Lord Shattershield's Attendant

Lord Milton Tillerturn

Lord Randolf Vammas

Lady Madeline Whitburn

9 Unnamed Patriars

First I'll note that not everyone you see lingering after the coronation ends up dead: I could talk to Lady Eshvelt Guthmere, Lady Ruth Linnacker, and Lady Freida Oberon, and their bodies aren't present in the hall later.

It also doesn't seem to be connected to vocalizing support for Gortash or not—you can overhear Portyr and Shattershield challenging him in the ambient dialogue after the coronation, but when you walk around and talk to everyone else the only one who has anything negative to say is Silifrey Sashenstar. Everyone else on the list above sings Gortash's praises.

So, here's what I think it is!

In the corner of the audience hall, you can find this note:

The Parliament of Peers is the body that's responsible for electing new dukes, and they held a formal vote to raise Gortash as Archduke and dissolve their own political body. Note the numbers: there's 23 members.

So who are these members? Up in Gortash's study, you can find this note discussing bribing, blackmailing, and threatening members of the Peers, which gives us the names of eight:

Five of these eight end up dead in the audience hall (Portyr, Jannath, Whitburn, Sashenstar, and Eomane).

As for the three Peers listed who don't end up in dead in the hall—Lady Ruth Linnacker, Lord Hir Rillyn, and Lady Haeril Vanthampur—let's look to this note:

Gortash has leverage against Ruth Linnacker through the abduction of her granddaughter, and I don't think it's unfair to assume Hir Rillyn and Haeril Vanthampur are similarly under Gortash's control, whether tadpoled or blackmailed (this is the one big assumption I had to make—bear with me!).

The other two with non-murderous leverage against them in the note above do end up dead, but I think there's some added context: I imagine Raylen Jannath is the husband of Wisteria Jannath, who Gortash canonically had an affair with (maybe it's personal? Maybe Raylen didn't care enough about the leverage of his own affair, if he knew she'd had one too?). For Portyr, there's the following in Gortash's study, noting he considers him a threat that shouldn't be underestimated, so he may not have wanted to stop at threats:

The inclusion of Portyr on the list of eight Peers could imply that the other three dukes are members of the Parliament of Peers, too. There's a book in Franc Peartree's house about the current state of who the dukes are, which I don't have my own screenshot of, but here's the relevant text from the wiki:

We know Belynne Stelmane is dead as part of the Bhaalist plot. Ulder Ravengard is tadpoled. The fourth duke was Thalamra Vanthampur, who's dead. They were waiting to replace her until Ravengard was found or confirmed gone—and Gortash was given this seat.

So, back to the original list of people murdered after the coronation. I bolded the names of those who aren't seemingly collateral damage (the bodyguards and attendants, and the unnamed patriars): there's 17.

17 killed after the coronation

Plus three Peers controlled through blackmail or other means

Plus Duke Stelmane and Duke Ravengard, dead and tadpoled respectively

That adds up to 22.

Add in Gortash's own vote, which he would have from taking (Thalamra) Vanthampur's seat, and you get 23.

The same number as the members of the Parliament of Peers.

Gortash didn't just orchestrate the Peers naming him the city's first Archduke, and he didn't just influence them to dissolve the political body that could vote another duke in. He made sure the individuals were destroyed, too.

[infiniteanalemma]

Nobility in Baldur's Gate

Edited to add: I never expected my silly, niche post to get as much attention as it has! I'm giving you all forehead smooches! 😚💋 I've gone through to clean up some things up as I've found new information. I also added a list of nobility that I've found in game and other sources to the end of the post. Thanks, y'all! I'm glad I'm not the only one to wonder about this stuff. Good stuff in the reblogs, too!

Baldur's Gate has dug itself deep in my brain, so I apologize to my poor mutuals who didn't follow me for BG3 content getting this onslaught of posts. Please bear with me until my hyperfixation wears off. 🙏

Now, I'll admit up front that I'm no expert in DnD lore*, so if I get things wrong, please feel free to correct me or just add in stuff I may have missed. I'm going off of what I've found in-game and my Google Fu skills.

That said, I do know enough about DnD to remember that Baldur's Gate nobility are called patriars, and that there are only a relative handful of actual patriar families. I was thinking about my "canon" Tav, Velassa, and her background in BG3. She's a modified OC that I plunked in-game during Early Access, so I made her a noble. It was just part of her existing character that I didn't think too deeply about. It was only after I starting playing that it occurred to me to wonder what exactly "a noble" is to a native Baldurian.

That got me digging a little more into the current state of the Baldurian nobility as of BG3. I don't know who--if anyone--needs or wants this, but I put this together for myself and decided to share it for anyone else who might be interested. I realize that this is probably pretty niche and it's rambly and long af, so I'll put it under a cut.

So, for starters, here's a list of all the patriar families, including "fallen" houses that are barely hanging on: Belt, Bormul, Caldwell, Dlusker, Durinbold, Eltan, Eomane, Exeltis, Gist, Guthmere, Hhune, Hlath, Hullhollyn, Irlentree, Jannath, Jhasso, Linnacker, Miyar, Nurthammas, Oathoon, Oberon, Portyr, Provoss, Ravenshade, Rillyn, Sashenstar, Shattershield, Silvershield, Tillerturn, Vammas, Vannath, Vanthampur, and Whitburn

From what I've gathered, Exeltis, Provoss and Ravenshade are all more-or-less destitute. Also, the Szarr family (Cazador's family) were patriars, but were believed to be entirely wiped out. No living descendants makes them a dead house, rather literally. 😏 (No, I'm not sorry.)

Now, we learn that Wyll's father is Ulder Ravengard, the Grand Duke. This brings us to the first point: There are four Dukes, known as the Council of Four, and the Grand Duke's job is to be the tie-breaker.

Traditionally, one of the Dukes is also the highest ranked officer of the Flaming Fist--that's Ravengard, who was a Fist promoted up through the ranks. Wyll tells us that his father was born lower class, and quite a few of the patriars seem to scorn him for that. The other Dukes are Belynne Stelmane, Dillard Portyr (more on him later) and Thalamra Vanthampur (more on her later, too). Of the four, two are patriars: Portyr and Vanthampur. We don't know much about Stelmane's past, except that she was a brilliant businesswoman, politician and--as we find out later--member of the Knights of the Shield. Apparently, you can't buy your way into the patriars, but maybe you can buy your way into being a Duke.

Skipping ahead a bit, when the player shows up to Gortash's coronation, there are a group of mostly patriars sitting in the boxes leading up to the front of the room. I'm listing them by seating arrangement, with box 1 and 2 being the left and right closest to Gortash, and 3 and 4 being farthest. (I don't know what, if anything, the seating arrangements imply. The second box has eight people, compared to four for all the rest.)

Lady Ailis Belt, Baron Callem Bormul, Lord Rugger Shattershield**, and Lady Alia Durinbold**

Lady Ruth Linnacker, Lord Sarken Eomane, Lady Freida Oberon, Lord Raylen Jannath, Lord Myer Ravenshade**, Lady Madeline Whitburn, Lady Beatrice Provoss, and Duke Dillard Portyr

Lady Winstra Hullhollyn, Admiral Peil Hullhollyn, Lord Randolph Vammas, and Lady Eshvelt Guthmere

Lord Milon Tillerturn, Lady Silifrey Sashenstar, Lord Petric Amber**, and Lady Haeril Birch**

Here's some pictures of the nobles sitting together. (Sorry for the terrible quality! I slapped it together for my own reference. 🙈)

The characters marked by ** aren't human, which is interesting because the information I found said all the patriar familes are human except the Shattershields. Myer Ravenshade is listed as human if you examine him, but he has a dwarf model. That might be a mistake, but I'm including him anyway. Alia Durinbold, from a presumably human patriar family, is a wood elf. Again, this could be a mistake, but unless Larian winds up changing it, it could mean that interracial marriages that once may have been looked down on are now becoming more acceptable. Petric Amber is also a wood elf, and Haeril Birch is a high elf.

Those last two are interesting because they are the only ones in the boxes who aren't patriars. If not for them, I'd have assumed the coronation was simply a demonstration for the patriars alone. Their inclusion means this is something else.

Digging around, my conclusion is that all the listed people are members of the Parliament of Peers--a 50 person advisory party to the Council of Four. However, what I found says that it's pretty rare for all 50 to attend meetings, and the usual group is between 20-30. There are exactly 20 named individuals listed, plus a group of unnamed "patriars" standing at the front.

Here they are, for what it's worth:

One thing I noticed here is that most of those listed here are Lord/Lady, but there are three other titles: Duke, Baron and Admiral. I've already talked about the Dukes. Looking into the patriars, the Hullhollyn family are notable for having a fleet of ships, so it makes sense that one of them would be an Admiral. That leaves the Baron.

I couldn't find anything about what it means to be a baron in Baldur's Gate. Going on real-world peerages, a baron/ess is generally the lowest "rank" of nobility. Basically, it's someone who was an official landowner (usually of an "important" bit of land) under the feudal system. Well and good, I suppose, but presumably all the Lords and Ladies of the patriars own land within the city. This particular Baron is also a patriar, but given that one doesn't need to be a patriar to become a Duke (normally a higher peer than a baron), that may not mean anything.

(Apparently, the term "Duke" was originally meant somewhat jokingly. That said, it still carries the weight of a title even if not the conventional one.) We don't see any other titles between Duke and Baron, so what does that mean?

This isn't canon, but my assumption is that it means the Baron owns important land outside of the city. This would make sense for Baron Bormul, given that the Bormul family apparently have investments in silver mines and vineyards. Assuming they own the mines/vineyards, that may make those lands "important" enough to the city for their owner to earn a title. Alternately, the Bormul family also has counterparts in Amn, so maybe baron is an Amnian title that got passed along. That's getting a bit far afield for me, though. 🤷‍♀️

Anyway, among the group at the coronation, pretty much everyone supports Gortash becoming Archduke, with the exception of Lady Sashenstar (an old woman who really isn't too impressed with this commoner) and Duke Portyr, who expresses some hesitation at the whole thing.

Duke Portyr is interesting here. Except for Ravengard (who is thralled and conducting the ceremony), Portyr is the only Duke present. Now, Stelmane is already dead, so that explains her absence. Vanthampur is also missing, which is interesting. Portyr first, though: he was Grand Duke before Ravengard. He's the one who re-instituted (Edited: and originally created!) the Parliament of Peers to make the day-to-day decisions of running the city, and ceded the title of Grand Duke to Ravengard. He's described as being conflict-averse, so it makes sense that he'd go along with Gortash's coronation, even though he's clearly unhappy about it. Also, the current leader of the Fists is also a Portyr, likely still Liara Portyr, the Duke's niece and Ravengard's second-in-command.

Thalamra Vanthampur is an interesting character, too. She's the head of the Vanthampur family, and part of the Descent into Avernus story. Apparently, she's the one who got Ravengard to go to Elturel before it sank to the Hells, intending to take his place as Grand Duke. From what I read, she also conspired with the Dead Three's cults to murder people in a bid to discredit the Flaming Fist. (The murdery bits were undoubtedly left to Bhaal's cult.) We never do find out anything about Thalamra Vanthampur in this game (I assume that's probably cut content). (Edited: She is mentioned in one of the in-game texts as having been killed, which was one of the possible outcomes of Descent into Avernus. Larian chose that as their canon, just like the fate of Elturel and Zariel.)

The only Vanthampur we do meet is Carnelia Vanthampur, who is in the Guildhall and describes herself as "a peer of the Parliament". She's willing to work with either the Guild or the Zhentarim. Nervously of course. Also interesting is that, on the Bloodstained Parchment hit list, is a Varri Vanthampur, whose gravestone you can find in Candulhallow's Tombstones shop, reading: "Varri Vanthampur. Unwanted in life, welcomed in death."

Interesting, hm?

Also on that hit list is Fridrik Hhune. The Hhunes apparently have links to the Knights of the Shield, from what I looked up--the same group the Emperor led with Stelmane. The only Hhunes we meet in-game are Blaise and Gheris Hhune, two of the werewolves in Cazador's ballroom who are brothers according to the dev notes. With them is another werewolf of a different patriar family, Duver Rillyn. This suggests Cazador has been going after members of patriar families, which sort of fits with what we know about his plans. We really don't find anything else out about them except that they consider Cazador to be their master and Astarion says they're new.

We also can talk to a Flaming Fist who mentions that Hurlbut Hhune is the father of Henrietta Hhune, who used to be secretly engaged to the Fist in question, only for her father to decide to arrange her to marry fellow patriar Derque Rillyn, who the Fist describes as "a major arsehole."

That conversation is interesting for a few reasons. For one, it tells you that arranged marriages within the patriar are a thing. Also, this Fist is a Manip (essentially a Sergeant) who can't ask the other Fists for help because "the Fists don't mess with wealthy patriars, they've got the Watch to back them up." That's aligned with what Devella can also tell you: "There are patriars on the murder target list. I'm oathbound to secure them first, so I'll be heading to the Upper City next." If you say that the Fist should protect everyone: "Not from around here, are you? We're in Baldur's Gate - this is just how things work."

This brings me back to my original issue: what is a Baldurian noble? The patriars are canonically nobles, of course, and they're undoubtedly seen as the "most important" of the nobility. From there, it's not much of a stretch to say that anyone who has earned the title of Duke is now a noble, even if they aren't patriars. I'd go so far as to say anyone on the Parliament of Peers (and their family by association) is a noble^, given that non-patriars Petric Amber and Haeril Birch are considered Lord and Lady. The information I found about that is that there are approximately twelve non-patriar members. If Amber and Birch are two of them, that leaves another unnamed 10.

^Edited: Looking at the dates, I realized that the Parliament of Peers is a very recent change to Baldurian governance. Duke Portyr originally created it after the three other Dukes on the Council of Four were assassinated. It was clearly meant as a temporary measure, but my guess is that the patriars liked having more official say. Not to mention the non-patriars who managed to get a seat. This has all happened within even the youngest of Tav/Urges' lifetimes.

Personally, I'd also assume that branch families of the patriars probably also count as nobility. By branch family, I mean those that marry out of the main line but whose ancestry stems from a patriar family. From what I've seen by naming conventions, Baldur's Gate seems to use patronmyic lineage--ancestry is generally passed to the sons, and wives take their husband's surname. So, if a daughter marries out of the family, she'd no longer be a part of her father's family lineage, but still would be considered nobility. These branch families likely still maintain powerful influence and connections from marrying into wealth, which would make them a good political/financial choice of marriage alliance, despite no longer having the main branch patriar family name. These families are also probably the ones most likely to find a place on the Parliament, too, but likely have to jockey for position if their "representative" dies (or otherwise leaves) and a new opening in the Parliament is created.

If you've read this far, as a treat you can have some crappy close-up portraits of the nobles at Gortash's coronation, grouped together in their respective boxes. 😚

* For what it's worth, I'd count myself as a casual DnD player. I have some knowledge of DnD--I've played BG1 and 2, Planescape: Torment, along with some general cultural osmosis. I've had friends who played the tabletop version, but for one reason or another, I've never played it myself.

[anderstrevelyan]

Have you ever wondered exactly what's going on with all the dead bodies in the Wyrm's Rock audience hall, if you leave and come back after Gortash's coronation?

I did some in-game research while working on a fic recently, and in the name of sparing anyone else from having to lay all this out, too—here's a list of the victims, and some notes-based educated guessing on Gortash's motivation here.

(Beyond Iron Counsul Nuff's summary in the screenshot above: "My lord requires a clear path to his magnificent future. We cut away the troublesome bramble.")

Lord Petric Amber

Lord Amber's Bodyguard

Lady Ailis Belt

Lady Haeril Birch

Baron Callem Bormul

Lady Alia Durinbold

Lady Durinbold's Bodyguard

Lady Durinbold's Attendant

Lord Sarken Eomane

Admiral Peil Hullhollyn

Lady Winstra Hullhollyn

Lord Raylen Jannath

Lord Jannath's Bodyguard

Duke Dillard Portyr

Lord Portyr's Attendant

Lord Portyr's Bodyguard

Lady Beatrice Provoss

Lord Myer Ravenshade

Lady Silifrey Sashenstar

Lord Rugger Shattershield

Lord Shattershield's Bodyguard

Lord Shattershield's Attendant

Lord Milton Tillerturn

Lord Randolf Vammas

Lady Madeline Whitburn

9 Unnamed Patriars

First I'll note that not everyone you see lingering after the coronation ends up dead: I could talk to Lady Eshvelt Guthmere, Lady Ruth Linnacker, and Lady Freida Oberon, and their bodies aren't present in the hall later.

It also doesn't seem to be connected to vocalizing support for Gortash or not—you can overhear Portyr and Shattershield challenging him in the ambient dialogue after the coronation, but when you walk around and talk to everyone else the only one who has anything negative to say is Silifrey Sashenstar. Everyone else on the list above sings Gortash's praises.

So, here's what I think it is!

In the corner of the audience hall, you can find this note:

The Parliament of Peers is the body that's responsible for electing new dukes, and they held a formal vote to raise Gortash as Archduke and dissolve their own political body. Note the numbers: there's 23 members.

So who are these members? Up in Gortash's study, you can find this note discussing bribing, blackmailing, and threatening members of the Peers, which gives us the names of eight:

Five of these eight end up dead in the audience hall (Portyr, Jannath, Whitburn, Sashenstar, and Eomane).

As for the three Peers listed who don't end up in dead in the hall—Lady Ruth Linnacker, Lord Hir Rillyn, and Lady Haeril Vanthampur—let's look to this note:

Gortash has leverage against Ruth Linnacker through the abduction of her granddaughter, and I don't think it's unfair to assume Hir Rillyn and Haeril Vanthampur are similarly under Gortash's control, whether tadpoled or blackmailed (this is the one big assumption I had to make—bear with me!).

The other two with non-murderous leverage against them in the note above do end up dead, but I think there's some added context: I imagine Raylen Jannath is the husband of Wisteria Jannath, who Gortash canonically had an affair with (maybe it's personal? Maybe Raylen didn't care enough about the leverage of his own affair, if he knew she'd had one too?). For Portyr, there's the following in Gortash's study, noting he considers him a threat that shouldn't be underestimated, so he may not have wanted to stop at threats:

The inclusion of Portyr on the list of eight Peers could imply that the other three dukes are members of the Parliament of Peers, too. There's a book in Franc Peartree's house about the current state of who the dukes are, which I don't have my own screenshot of, but here's the relevant text from the wiki:

We know Belynne Stelmane is dead as part of the Bhaalist plot. Ulder Ravengard is tadpoled. The fourth duke was Thalamra Vanthampur, who's dead. They were waiting to replace her until Ravengard was found or confirmed gone—and Gortash was given this seat.

So, back to the original list of people murdered after the coronation. I bolded the names of those who aren't seemingly collateral damage (the bodyguards and attendants, and the unnamed patriars): there's 17.

17 killed after the coronation

Plus three Peers controlled through blackmail or other means

Plus Duke Stelmane and Duke Ravengard, dead and tadpoled respectively

That adds up to 22.

Add in Gortash's own vote, which he would have from taking (Thalamra) Vanthampur's seat, and you get 23.

The same number as the members of the Parliament of Peers.

Gortash didn't just orchestrate the Peers naming him the city's first Archduke, and he didn't just influence them to dissolve the political body that could vote another duke in. He made sure the individuals were destroyed, too.

[infiniteanalemma]

Here is the list of Baldurian nobility and patriars I've found so far, under a cut for those who want to see it.

Edited to add: I've added more patriars and what each patriar family is known for, income especially. Not all of these people are in BG3, but most of the ones who aren't are either 1.) important "historical" patriars to know about, 2.) Important to the background of BG3 even if dead or not mentioned, or 3.) patriars that should still be alive, even if not in-game.

You can assume anyone on this list is human unless otherwise stated. This isn't a comprehensive list, by any means. There's ... a lot of lore I haven't looked at. Many of these are found mentioned in the in-game texts, so if you see "mentioned", that's probably where I found it. If I've missed anyone egregious, let me know and I'll add them to the list.

Patriars, alphabetically:

Belts - breeds and sells horses across the Sword Coast

Duke Belt - (historic figure, former Grand Duke)

Lady Ailis Belt - human female (noblewoman at Gortash's coronation)

Bormuls - holds investments in silver mines and vineyards, with a branch of the family in Amn

Baron Callem Bormul - human male (nobleman at Gortash's coronation)

Gormund Bormul - chaotic evil wraith (from Baldur's Gate: City Encounters) killed 65 years before BG3, stalks streets as an undead serial killer

Caldwells - one of the oldest and richest families. Originally made fortunes from apple and pear orchards in the south of the city, but expanded into timber and lumber. Now owns most of the art museums in the city.

Malghar Caldwell - charred corpse found near Guildhall entrance in BG3

Wyllyck Caldwell - aging patriarch of the Caldewells circa 1482 (was in his 70's then, 10 years before BG3), well regarded among patriars and commoners. His wife, Abelea, used his alchemical discoveries to significantly increase their wealth. He was a former political rival of Ulder Ravengard. (from Murder in Baldur's Gate)

Dluskers - "nearly broke", but own a textile mill in the Lower City and a few slaughterhouses in the Outer City.

Guinever Dlusker - younger sister of Norold Dlusker, married a Caldwell (from Murder in Baldur's Gate)

Norold Dlusker - disgraced patriarch of Dlusker family, was being investigated by then Duke Torlin Silvershield for ties to Guild (from Murder in Baldur's Gate)

Durinbolds - own vast herds of sheep. They are related to nobility in Waterdeep.

Lady Alia Durinbold - wood elf (noblewoman at Gortash's coronation)

Eltans - descended from the famous Grand Duke Eltan, who founded the Flaming Fist. They sold their stake in the mercenary company to pay off their own debts.

Duke Xeremiah Eltan - historic figure (from Baldur's Gate, mentioned in dialogue in BG3)

Eomanes - owns whale- and fish-oil factories to produce lamp oil, along with the most elite perfumery in Baldur's Gate.

Nysene, Dolandre, Rusorra, & Trenteller Eomane - (from Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus) Nysene (lawful evil human female) is known for tricking lower-born people by inviting them to a party, convincing them to stay in the Eomanes' manor until after curfew, then giving them a choice: be kicked out so they get arrested for violating Upper City curfew (to spend" a night in the Citadel's cells or worse"), or allow her and her friends to "make cruel sport of them until they can escape at daybreak". Her siblings find it all embarrassing and unworthy of a patriar, but don't care enough stop her because her victims are all social inferiors. They're more interested in their own "scandalous masked revels" to pay attention to her or realize the extent of her sadism. Apparently Nysene's "games" have attracted the attention of the local Banites as possibly worth cultivating ties to her.

Lord Sarken Eomane - human male (nobleman at Gortash's coronation, mentioned in Vulnerable Patriars)

Exeltises— merchant family that made a fortune on Exeltis Ice Wine made only in the family's vineyards west of Daggerford. By the late-14th century DR, the family was in decline, and now in the 15th isn't even mentioned among the other patriars.

Gists - production of various dyes

Lord Haverford Gist - (mentioned in To Lord Haverford Gist)

Leander Gist - painting created by Oskar that became possessed by a poltergeist

Guthmeres - owners of a Baldurian butchery along with a number of tanneries.

Lady Eshvelt Guthmere - human female (noblewoman at Gortash's coronation) just wants someone to stop Absolute

Hhunes - Originally from Tethyr, the Hhune family married into the Baldurian patriar. They have strong ties within the secretive Knights of the Shield, and own holdings in other major cities.

Blaise & Gheris Hhune - werewolf servants of Cazador (meet in BG3) dev notes say they're brothers

Fridrik Hhune - (mentioned on Dolor's hit list)

Hurlbut Hhune - father of Henrietta, broke her relationship with a Fist Manip and arranged a marriage to fellow patriar Derque Rillyn (mentioned in dialogue in BG3)

Henrietta Hhune - daughter arranged to marry (mentioned in dialogue in BG3)

Lutecia Hhune - lawful evil human female (from Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus) A widow who presides over the Hhune manor in Manorborn, where the Shield of the Hidden Lord had been hidden before it was stolen by the Vanthampurs. She has no children but estranged siblings she's looking to avoid passing the estate to, and has asked the librarians of High Hall to scour the genealogies to find distant relations she can choose instead. The Guild has taken an interest to influence and/or forge a genealogy. Lutecia is served by a cambion named Kaddrus, who takes the form of a much younger, "strikingly handsome" man.

Satiir Thione-Hhune - neutral evil human female (from Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus) A member of the Hhunes who married into another, wealthy family. She'd been taken prisoner by the Vanthampurs to be leverage in case they found out who had stolen then Shield of the Hidden Lord. Satiir was a member of the Knights of the Shield, and if released, tells her family who stole it and ensures the Vanthampurs are politically ruined.

Hlaths - own cafés and great gambling debts

Lord Orthagon Hlath - (nominal head of family, mentioned in The Patriar Blackmail Files) - BG3

Merrigold Hlath - (practical head of family, mentioned in The Patriar Blackmail Files) - BG3

Holiday Hlath - (Orthagon's grand-neice and heir, mentioned in The Patriar Blackmail Files) - BG3

Hullhollyns - owns a fleet of merchant ships. They have a trading truce with the Irlentrees.

Admiral Peil Hullhollyn - human male (nobleman at Gortash's coronation) approves of Gortash, respectful of Ravengard

Lady Winstra Hullhollyn - human female (noblewoman at Gortash's coronation) not fond of Ravengard

Irlentrees - merchants as well, and notable members of the city's Merchant's League

Gilbert Irlentree - painting found in Oskar's studio

Jannaths - owners of tin and copper mines, and once sat a Grand Duchess upon the Council of Four.

Duchess Liia Jannath (historic, from Baldur's Gate) Grand Duchess and founder of the Jannath patriar line

Lady Firelia Jannath - human female (meet in BG3) Oskar's wife

Lord Raylen Jannath - human male (nobleman at Gortash's coronation, mentioned in Political Influence Plan and Vulnerable Patriars)

Lady Wisteria Jannath - (had affair with Gortash, mentioned in Perfumed Days, Passionate Nights, SPOILER: "Wisteria" is Lady Jannath's middle name. /SPOILER)

Jhasso - named after the Baldurian merchant who helped found the long-standing Seven Suns Trading Coster. They are now part owners of the coster, which is currently struggling financially.

Klim Jhasso - neutral evil male human (from Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus) Found being held and tortured by Banites in a hidden dungeon under a bathhouse in the city, captured after his bodyguard was killed. May be alive or dead based on player choice. Promises players will be rewarded by his family for saving him, but is lying. His mother is dead, father is sick, and three younger siblings would rather he died so they can get his share of the inheritance. (None of his family members are named.) The trading coster (grocery, basically) that his family co-owns is failing, so they can't afford to pay anything.

Linnacker - hold investments in other lands; their main source of income is from their gem mines in Tethyr.

Fariza Linnacker - Ruth's granddaughter (mentioned in Political Influence Plan)

Flaev Linnacker - charred corpse found near Guildhall entrance in BG3

Lady Ruth Linnacker - human female (noblewoman at Gortash's coronation)

Mssr. Rewth Linnacker - (mentioned in Art Show Schedule) note: probably not the same person as Ruth; Mssr. means Monsieur, a masculine honorific

Miyars - ties to the Merchant's League, control many businesses related to the repair and resupply of wagons that come into the city

Nurthammases - own businesses that supply ships, readying them for long trips at sea

Oathoons - import quality wines and fine spirits into the city.

Martnev Oathoon - (mentioned in Past Due Invoice and Final Delivery) works at Durinbold & Oathoon as a Valued Customer Disciplinarian

Oberons - own many of the dry docks situated within Gray Harbor

Lady Freida Oberon - human female (noblewoman at Gortash's coronation)

Lady Harette Oberon - (mentioned in Art Show Schedule)

Ulis Oberon - charred corpse found near Guildhall entrance in BG3

Portyrs - maritime shipping, investing, and trading

Duke Dillard Portyr - human male (Duke at Gortash's coronation) In Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus, it says that Dillard used to be a respected businessman, but after a string of bad investments, and losing two wives and all three sons, he has no desire to deal with conflict or anything stressful. He lives alone and comforts himself with his wealth and luxuries. He does seem to have a good relationship with his niece, Liara, who he kept correspondences with during her deployment to Chult. The text describes him as easily manipulated in politics, and being well-meaning but ineffectual: "He is known for listening with concern, showing an earnest desire to help, making promises to look into things, and then doing nothing." He was against Ravengard going to Elturel, worrying about what the Fists would do without him, but no one cared what he had to say.

Liara Portyr lawful evil human female (from Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus, met in BG3, mentioned in Flaming Fist New Recruit Booklet, Investigation Priorities, Letter of complaint, Political Influence Plan, Skeletons in Patriar Closets, White Bishop - Orders, White Knight - Orders, and White Pawn - Orders) In Descent Into Avernus, it says she was recalled from Chult by her uncle Dillard to get the Fist under control while Ravengard was away. She hoped to take Ravengard's position as his successor, but also "clings to the hope he's still alive." She "strongly" encouraged players to save him and Elturel if at all possible, ensured they were rewarded for having dealt with the Vanthampurs, and gave them horses and a cart full of supplies to do so. She then works to get the Gate's security under control. In BG3, based on all the places she's mentioned, it seems she's done her best to fulfill that goal — even if it's just to ensure the Flaming Fists' reputation isn't smeared. It also seems she's not terribly ideological about what help she takes to get it done, but at least keeps up appearances of it being about justice.

Provosses - previously well-off, but became near-destitute after the loss of their cattle herds

Lady Beatrice Provoss - human female (noblewoman at Gortash's coronation)

Raddles - Note: Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus is the only place I've seen mention the Raddle family.

Mentioned in Descent into Avernus as being a dead house whose last heir died "several years ago", but that a member of the Guild called The Whiskey Lady pretends to be the "Dowager Raddle", supposedly one of the last of the family and operating out of the Raddle manor in the Manorborn district. No one actually knows the name of this "Dowager", because to ask is admitting that one doesn't know their name, a major social faux pas.

Ravenshades - trading inks, dyes, precious gems and fine jewelry

Archibald Ravenshade - painting of what looks like an elf with a beard, found in Oskar's studio and captioned "A master of sonnets and plays about ambition, supernatural tensions with the natural world, avarice, love, and moving bushes." Given that elves can't grow facial hair, the figure must be a half-elf.

Lord Myer Ravenshade - "human" male but has dwarf model (nobleman at Gortash's coronation)

Redlocks - Mentioned in Descent into Avernus as secretly financing piracy and smuggling.

Morgan Redlock - (the only Redlock I've found so far) mentioned when examining a bust in Gortash's office as a woman who married a man three times her age. After the wedding, he had a heart attack, and she took his merchant ships and turned them into a pirate fleet.

Rillyns - once known as wise investors and moneylenders, the Rillyns used guild-sponsored enforcers to collect their debts. Since losing much of their fortune, Yvandre Rillyn has restored their reputation and finances by running a sword-wielding school.

Clerebold Rillyn - cousin of Derque Rillyn (mentioned in My Dear Madame Nortale, painting of same name in Oskar's studio)

Derque Rillyn - cousin of Clerebold Rillyn, new fiancée of Henrietta Hhune, called "a major arsehole" by a Fist Manip (mentioned in dialogue in BG3 and in My Dear Madame Nortale)

Duver Rillyn - werewolf servant of Cazador (meet in BG3)

Gothric Rillyn - thief buried in the graveyard by the "Stone Lord" (meet in BG3)

Lord Hir Rillyn - father of Derque, Committee Chair of "The Committee of Concerned Patriars" (mentioned in Vulnerable Patriars, My Dear Madame Nortale, and Invitation to Lord Gortash)

Yvandre Rillyn - true neutral female human (from Candlekeep Mysteries: the Scrivener's Tale and Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus) A former Flaming Fist who opened a sword-wielding school in a guest house on her estate in the Upper City's Manorborn District. She is the current head of the Rillyn family. She worked to bring the Rillyns back after her uncle, Machil, spent the family fortune. According to Descent into Avernus, the Rillyn School is "about to graduate its first class of students", which it also says have studied there at least five years and have gained her approval. Apparently she is selective about who she allows in as students, which has caused some grudges against the Rillyns for the "humiliation". (It seems likely that this means other patriars, who would be insulted that a fellow patriar would refuse to allow their connections or money to buy admittance.)

Sashenstars - one of the city's most well-known patriar families, own shipping, mining and textile businesses and are members of the Merchant's League

Lady Silifrey Sashenstar - human female (noblewoman at Gortash's coronation) old woman unimpressed with Gortash

Ser Yarrick Sashenstar - (mentioned in Art Show Schedule)

Shattershields - the only non-human patriar family, shield dwarves whose ancestors built Balduran's famous city wall.

Lord Rugger Shattershield - gold dwarf male (nobleman at Gortash's coronation)

Silvershields - very wealthy family that has seated multiple Grand Dukes

Duke Entar Silvershield - (historic, from Baldur's Gate) former Grand Duke

Alana Silvershield - (from Murder in Baldur's Gate) middle daughter of Torlin and Evelyn Silvershield

Entar Silvershield III - (from Murder in Baldur's Gate) son and youngest child of Torlin and Evelyn Silvershield

Skie Silvershield II - (from Murder in Baldur's Gate) eldest daughter of Torlin and Evelyn Silvershield

Torlin Silvershield - true neutral human male (from Murder in Baldur's Gate) Former Grand Duke and high priest of Gond who became a Chosen of Bhaal and brought about the god's resurrection in 1482

Tillerturns - prominent landowners, owning and leasing property in the city, able to trace their lineage back to the original four Dukes that founded Baldur's Gate

Ernest Tillerturn - name of a painting found in Oskar's studio

Lord Milon Tillerturn - human male (nobleman at Gortash's coronation) excited but unsure about Gortash

Vammases - controls much of the trade between Baldur's Gate and the ports of Chult

Lord Randolph Vammas - human male (nobleman at Gortash's coronation) approves of Gortash

Vannath - recently married into the patriar after fleeing Neverwinter following the destruction of the city after the eruption of Mount Hotenow

Vanthampurs - raised to patriar due to Thalmara Vanthampur's successes of civic engineering

Amrik Vanthampur - lawful evil human male (from Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus) The second son of Thalamra Vanthampur and her favorite. A 33 year old man with ear-length, black hair, beard and mustache and dark eyes. He had a money-lending business on the side, and used his family's name to hire thugs to rough up the gamblers who couldn't pay back his exploitative loans. Amrik is basically a dagger-wielding rogue, described as "a practiced liar" who will blame everything on his younger brother, Mortlock, if given a chance or if not, use his mother's name to try to wiggle out of trouble. He can be killed by players in Descent into Avernus, and I've found no mention of him in BG3. If he or any of his family is allowed to live by the players, one of the Flaming Fists promises to ensure they're "hunted down and punished".

Carnelia Vantampur - Peer met at Guild (meet in BG3)

Lady Haeril Vanthampur - (mentioned in Vulnerable Patriars)

Mortlock Vanthampur - lawful evil human male (from Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus) The third and least favorite son of Thalamra. He's a 29 year old, tall, bald, muscular man with heavy burns across the left side of his face. His mother tolerates him, but his brothers hate him, think he's a stupid abomination and conspire to have him assassinated. If the players save him, he tells them everything he knows about his mother's plot and leaves Baldur's Gate as soon as possible. He's stated to have boarded a ship, with no intention of ever coming back.

Duke Thalamra Vanthampur - lawful evil human female (from Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus, mentioned in The Dukes of Baldur's Gate, deceased) She was in her late 60's during Descent into Avernus. She'd had three husbands, all dead, and had one son by each. Her second son, Amrik, is her favorite. She considers her first son to be the smartest, but unsuited to be her successor. She doesn't care about her youngest son, Mortlock, and would have had him killed if she hadn't promised his father on his deathbed that she'd take care of the boy. When she was young, she'd been a manual laborer in the city's sewers, then rose to be the Master of Drains and Underways — a minister of sewers and waterworks. Eventually she was elected as a Duke. She was also a devil worshiper and warlock (Zariel is explicitly stated to be her patron) with a temple to Zariel built under her house. She orchestrated events to force Ulder Ravengard to leave for Elturel on a diplomatic mission, knowing it was going to fall to Avernus, so her plans to pull Baldur's Gate into the Hells would be easier. She is also stated as willing to die — or "happily" watch her sons be killed — instead of surrendering, though she does try to escape first. BG3's canon has her dead.

Thurstwell Vanthampur - lawful evil human male (from Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus, mentioned in Post House Delivery Complaints) The first son of Thalmara Vanthampur, who she doesn't consider fit to be her successor. He's called "a pale and sullen recluse in his forties," "frail and hateful", who is "sickly" and resentful of his brothers — Morlock for being a "monstrous dolt" and Amrik for being the favorite, despite Thurstwell being "supposedly the smartest of her sons". He uses imps to spy on both his brothers, but won't move against Amrik for fear of making his mother angry. He is basically an evil cleric, who whines about his guards' failures if he's taken captive. Given his mention in Post House Delivery Complaints, which is stated to be turned to the most recent page, he may still be alive in BG3's canon. One interesting thing is that the Post House note has him asking "Do you know who my parents are?" Parents, plural, even though his father is stated to be dead. That could be taken to mean his father was in important person, and that Thurstwell might be close to the father's family. If Thurstwell survived and was "hunted down and punished" by the Fists, it's possible the unnamed father's family may have gotten him out of trouble.

Varri Vanthampur - (mentioned on Dolor's hit list, and inscription on the gravestone you can find in Candulhallow's Tombstones shop, reading: "Varri Vanthampur. Unwanted in life, welcomed in death.", deceased)

Whitburns - own a slate quarry east of the city

Lady Madeline Whitburn - human female (noblewoman at Gortash's coronation, mentioned in Vulnerable Patriars and I Have a Serious Complaint!) Likely the "mother-in-law" mentioned by the elven Lady Whitburn below. Apparently her husband's name is Whit Whitburn, if the I Have a Serious Complaint note is using his real name.

Lady Whitburn - (met in BG3) high elf wife of Lord Whitburn, found looking for a hat shop with her husband in the Lower City and congratulating herself for visiting the area and not being a "snob" like her mother-in-law

Lord Whitburn - (possibly mentioned in Donation Record and Draft Letter to Lord Whitburn) human husband of elven Lady Whitburn, found looking for a hat shop with his wife in the Lower City, "keeping his finger on the pulse" of the city and spending his inheritance money

Important non-patriars

Lord Petric Amber - wood elf (found in Gortash's coronation)

Lady Haeril Birch - high elf (found in Gortash's coronation)

Duke Ulder Ravengard / Wyll Ravengard

Duke Brelynne Stelmane (deceased, mentioned in dialogue)

Gov't Officials:

Osmurl Havanack, High Constable and Master of Walls (lawful neutral shield dwarf) - Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus, BG3 (mentioned on Orders (Wyrm's Crossing))

Nobility in Baldur's Gate

Edited to add: I never expected my silly, niche post to get as much attention as it has! I'm giving you all forehead smooches! 😚💋 I've gone through to clean up some things up as I've found new information. I also added a list of nobility that I've found in game and other sources to the end of the post. Thanks, y'all! I'm glad I'm not the only one to wonder about this stuff. Good stuff in the reblogs, too!

Baldur's Gate has dug itself deep in my brain, so I apologize to my poor mutuals who didn't follow me for BG3 content getting this onslaught of posts. Please bear with me until my hyperfixation wears off. 🙏

Now, I'll admit up front that I'm no expert in DnD lore*, so if I get things wrong, please feel free to correct me or just add in stuff I may have missed. I'm going off of what I've found in-game and my Google Fu skills.

That said, I do know enough about DnD to remember that Baldur's Gate nobility are called patriars, and that there are only a relative handful of actual patriar families. I was thinking about my "canon" Tav, Velassa, and her background in BG3. She's a modified OC that I plunked in-game during Early Access, so I made her a noble. It was just part of her existing character that I didn't think too deeply about. It was only after I starting playing that it occurred to me to wonder what exactly "a noble" is to a native Baldurian.

That got me digging a little more into the current state of the Baldurian nobility as of BG3. I don't know who--if anyone--needs or wants this, but I put this together for myself and decided to share it for anyone else who might be interested. I realize that this is probably pretty niche and it's rambly and long af, so I'll put it under a cut.

So, for starters, here's a list of all the patriar families, including "fallen" houses that are barely hanging on: Belt, Bormul, Caldwell, Dlusker, Durinbold, Eltan, Eomane, Exeltis, Gist, Guthmere, Hhune, Hlath, Hullhollyn, Irlentree, Jannath, Jhasso, Linnacker, Miyar, Nurthammas, Oathoon, Oberon, Portyr, Provoss, Ravenshade, Rillyn, Sashenstar, Shattershield, Silvershield, Tillerturn, Vammas, Vannath, Vanthampur, and Whitburn

From what I've gathered, Exeltis, Provoss and Ravenshade are all more-or-less destitute. Also, the Szarr family (Cazador's family) were patriars, but were believed to be entirely wiped out. No living descendants makes them a dead house, rather literally. 😏 (No, I'm not sorry.)

Now, we learn that Wyll's father is Ulder Ravengard, the Grand Duke. This brings us to the first point: There are four Dukes, known as the Council of Four, and the Grand Duke's job is to be the tie-breaker.

Traditionally, one of the Dukes is also the highest ranked officer of the Flaming Fist--that's Ravengard, who was a Fist promoted up through the ranks. Wyll tells us that his father was born lower class, and quite a few of the patriars seem to scorn him for that. The other Dukes are Belynne Stelmane, Dillard Portyr (more on him later) and Thalamra Vanthampur (more on her later, too). Of the four, two are patriars: Portyr and Vanthampur. We don't know much about Stelmane's past, except that she was a brilliant businesswoman, politician and--as we find out later--member of the Knights of the Shield. Apparently, you can't buy your way into the patriars, but maybe you can buy your way into being a Duke.

Skipping ahead a bit, when the player shows up to Gortash's coronation, there are a group of mostly patriars sitting in the boxes leading up to the front of the room. I'm listing them by seating arrangement, with box 1 and 2 being the left and right closest to Gortash, and 3 and 4 being farthest. (I don't know what, if anything, the seating arrangements imply. The second box has eight people, compared to four for all the rest.)

Lady Ailis Belt, Baron Callem Bormul, Lord Rugger Shattershield**, and Lady Alia Durinbold**

Lady Ruth Linnacker, Lord Sarken Eomane, Lady Freida Oberon, Lord Raylen Jannath, Lord Myer Ravenshade**, Lady Madeline Whitburn, Lady Beatrice Provoss, and Duke Dillard Portyr

Lady Winstra Hullhollyn, Admiral Peil Hullhollyn, Lord Randolph Vammas, and Lady Eshvelt Guthmere

Lord Milon Tillerturn, Lady Silifrey Sashenstar, Lord Petric Amber**, and Lady Haeril Birch**

Here's some pictures of the nobles sitting together. (Sorry for the terrible quality! I slapped it together for my own reference. 🙈)

The characters marked by ** aren't human, which is interesting because the information I found said all the patriar familes are human except the Shattershields. Myer Ravenshade is listed as human if you examine him, but he has a dwarf model. That might be a mistake, but I'm including him anyway. Alia Durinbold, from a presumably human patriar family, is a wood elf. Again, this could be a mistake, but unless Larian winds up changing it, it could mean that interracial marriages that once may have been looked down on are now becoming more acceptable. Petric Amber is also a wood elf, and Haeril Birch is a high elf.

Those last two are interesting because they are the only ones in the boxes who aren't patriars. If not for them, I'd have assumed the coronation was simply a demonstration for the patriars alone. Their inclusion means this is something else.

Digging around, my conclusion is that all the listed people are members of the Parliament of Peers--a 50 person advisory party to the Council of Four. However, what I found says that it's pretty rare for all 50 to attend meetings, and the usual group is between 20-30. There are exactly 20 named individuals listed, plus a group of unnamed "patriars" standing at the front.

Here they are, for what it's worth:

One thing I noticed here is that most of those listed here are Lord/Lady, but there are three other titles: Duke, Baron and Admiral. I've already talked about the Dukes. Looking into the patriars, the Hullhollyn family are notable for having a fleet of ships, so it makes sense that one of them would be an Admiral. That leaves the Baron.

I couldn't find anything about what it means to be a baron in Baldur's Gate. Going on real-world peerages, a baron/ess is generally the lowest "rank" of nobility. Basically, it's someone who was an official landowner (usually of an "important" bit of land) under the feudal system. Well and good, I suppose, but presumably all the Lords and Ladies of the patriars own land within the city. This particular Baron is also a patriar, but given that one doesn't need to be a patriar to become a Duke (normally a higher peer than a baron), that may not mean anything.

(Apparently, the term "Duke" was originally meant somewhat jokingly. That said, it still carries the weight of a title even if not the conventional one.) We don't see any other titles between Duke and Baron, so what does that mean?

This isn't canon, but my assumption is that it means the Baron owns important land outside of the city. This would make sense for Baron Bormul, given that the Bormul family apparently have investments in silver mines and vineyards. Assuming they own the mines/vineyards, that may make those lands "important" enough to the city for their owner to earn a title. Alternately, the Bormul family also has counterparts in Amn, so maybe baron is an Amnian title that got passed along. That's getting a bit far afield for me, though. 🤷‍♀️

Anyway, among the group at the coronation, pretty much everyone supports Gortash becoming Archduke, with the exception of Lady Sashenstar (an old woman who really isn't too impressed with this commoner) and Duke Portyr, who expresses some hesitation at the whole thing.

Duke Portyr is interesting here. Except for Ravengard (who is thralled and conducting the ceremony), Portyr is the only Duke present. Now, Stelmane is already dead, so that explains her absence. Vanthampur is also missing, which is interesting. Portyr first, though: he was Grand Duke before Ravengard. He's the one who re-instituted (Edited: and originally created!) the Parliament of Peers to make the day-to-day decisions of running the city, and ceded the title of Grand Duke to Ravengard. He's described as being conflict-averse, so it makes sense that he'd go along with Gortash's coronation, even though he's clearly unhappy about it. Also, the current leader of the Fists is also a Portyr, likely still Liara Portyr, the Duke's niece and Ravengard's second-in-command.

Thalamra Vanthampur is an interesting character, too. She's the head of the Vanthampur family, and part of the Descent into Avernus story. Apparently, she's the one who got Ravengard to go to Elturel before it sank to the Hells, intending to take his place as Grand Duke. From what I read, she also conspired with the Dead Three's cults to murder people in a bid to discredit the Flaming Fist. (The murdery bits were undoubtedly left to Bhaal's cult.) We never do find out anything about Thalamra Vanthampur in this game (I assume that's probably cut content). (Edited: She is mentioned in one of the in-game texts as having been killed, which was one of the possible outcomes of Descent into Avernus. Larian chose that as their canon, just like the fate of Elturel and Zariel.)

The only Vanthampur we do meet is Carnelia Vanthampur, who is in the Guildhall and describes herself as "a peer of the Parliament". She's willing to work with either the Guild or the Zhentarim. Nervously of course. Also interesting is that, on the Bloodstained Parchment hit list, is a Varri Vanthampur, whose gravestone you can find in Candulhallow's Tombstones shop, reading: "Varri Vanthampur. Unwanted in life, welcomed in death."

Interesting, hm?

Also on that hit list is Fridrik Hhune. The Hhunes apparently have links to the Knights of the Shield, from what I looked up--the same group the Emperor led with Stelmane. The only Hhunes we meet in-game are Blaise and Gheris Hhune, two of the werewolves in Cazador's ballroom who are brothers according to the dev notes. With them is another werewolf of a different patriar family, Duver Rillyn. This suggests Cazador has been going after members of patriar families, which sort of fits with what we know about his plans. We really don't find anything else out about them except that they consider Cazador to be their master and Astarion says they're new.

We also can talk to a Flaming Fist who mentions that Hurlbut Hhune is the father of Henrietta Hhune, who used to be secretly engaged to the Fist in question, only for her father to decide to arrange her to marry fellow patriar Derque Rillyn, who the Fist describes as "a major arsehole."

That conversation is interesting for a few reasons. For one, it tells you that arranged marriages within the patriar are a thing. Also, this Fist is a Manip (essentially a Sergeant) who can't ask the other Fists for help because "the Fists don't mess with wealthy patriars, they've got the Watch to back them up." That's aligned with what Devella can also tell you: "There are patriars on the murder target list. I'm oathbound to secure them first, so I'll be heading to the Upper City next." If you say that the Fist should protect everyone: "Not from around here, are you? We're in Baldur's Gate - this is just how things work."

This brings me back to my original issue: what is a Baldurian noble? The patriars are canonically nobles, of course, and they're undoubtedly seen as the "most important" of the nobility. From there, it's not much of a stretch to say that anyone who has earned the title of Duke is now a noble, even if they aren't patriars. I'd go so far as to say anyone on the Parliament of Peers (and their family by association) is a noble^, given that non-patriars Petric Amber and Haeril Birch are considered Lord and Lady. The information I found about that is that there are approximately twelve non-patriar members. If Amber and Birch are two of them, that leaves another unnamed 10.

^Edited: Looking at the dates, I realized that the Parliament of Peers is a very recent change to Baldurian governance. Duke Portyr originally created it after the three other Dukes on the Council of Four were assassinated. It was clearly meant as a temporary measure, but my guess is that the patriars liked having more official say. Not to mention the non-patriars who managed to get a seat. This has all happened within even the youngest of Tav/Urges' lifetimes.

Personally, I'd also assume that branch families of the patriars probably also count as nobility. By branch family, I mean those that marry out of the main line but whose ancestry stems from a patriar family. From what I've seen by naming conventions, Baldur's Gate seems to use patronmyic lineage--ancestry is generally passed to the sons, and wives take their husband's surname. So, if a daughter marries out of the family, she'd no longer be a part of her father's family lineage, but still would be considered nobility. These branch families likely still maintain powerful influence and connections from marrying into wealth, which would make them a good political/financial choice of marriage alliance, despite no longer having the main branch patriar family name. These families are also probably the ones most likely to find a place on the Parliament, too, but likely have to jockey for position if their "representative" dies (or otherwise leaves) and a new opening in the Parliament is created.

If you've read this far, as a treat you can have some crappy close-up portraits of the nobles at Gortash's coronation, grouped together in their respective boxes. 😚

* For what it's worth, I'd count myself as a casual DnD player. I have some knowledge of DnD--I've played BG1 and 2, Planescape: Torment, along with some general cultural osmosis. I've had friends who played the tabletop version, but for one reason or another, I've never played it myself.

[anderstrevelyan]

Oh, fascinating—an important addition, thank you!

That challenges my theory a bit because that gives us two extra Peers; I'd guessed Guthmere and Oberon weren't members of the Parliament of Peers if they survived.

Possibly the two unaccounted for from the vulnerable Peers list (Hir Rillyn and Haeril Vanthampur) were successfully intimidated to step down before the Archduke vote, and replaced with two new Peers more likely to vote "yes"?

Or maybe Gortash didn't have a vote yet and he also successfully got Portyr to resign (which was his plan mentioned in the Parliamentary Action Plan note, with the intention to fill his seat with his niece Liara. Gortash wouldn't need to kill her—she's the tadpoled Flaming Fist we meet as part of another quest), but killed him anyway (remembering that warning to himself not to underestimate him as a threat)?

The numbers are too close to the strategically placed note for me to suspect this wasn't an environmental storytelling choice.

Have you ever wondered exactly what's going on with all the dead bodies in the Wyrm's Rock audience hall, if you leave and come back after Gortash's coronation?

I did some in-game research while working on a fic recently, and in the name of sparing anyone else from having to lay all this out, too—here's a list of the victims, and some notes-based educated guessing on Gortash's motivation here.

(Beyond Iron Counsul Nuff's summary in the screenshot above: "My lord requires a clear path to his magnificent future. We cut away the troublesome bramble.")

Lord Petric Amber

Lord Amber's Bodyguard

Lady Ailis Belt

Lady Haeril Birch

Baron Callem Bormul

Lady Alia Durinbold

Lady Durinbold's Bodyguard

Lady Durinbold's Attendant

Lord Sarken Eomane

Admiral Peil Hullhollyn

Lady Winstra Hullhollyn

Lord Raylen Jannath

Lord Jannath's Bodyguard

Duke Dillard Portyr

Lord Portyr's Attendant

Lord Portyr's Bodyguard

Lady Beatrice Provoss

Lord Myer Ravenshade

Lady Silifrey Sashenstar

Lord Rugger Shattershield

Lord Shattershield's Bodyguard

Lord Shattershield's Attendant

Lord Milton Tillerturn

Lord Randolf Vammas

Lady Madeline Whitburn

9 Unnamed Patriars

First I'll note that not everyone you see lingering after the coronation ends up dead: I could talk to Lady Eshvelt Guthmere, Lady Ruth Linnacker, and Lady Freida Oberon, and their bodies aren't present in the hall later.

It also doesn't seem to be connected to vocalizing support for Gortash or not—you can overhear Portyr and Shattershield challenging him in the ambient dialogue after the coronation, but when you walk around and talk to everyone else the only one who has anything negative to say is Silifrey Sashenstar. Everyone else on the list above sings Gortash's praises.

So, here's what I think it is!

In the corner of the audience hall, you can find this note:

The Parliament of Peers is the body that's responsible for electing new dukes, and they held a formal vote to raise Gortash as Archduke and dissolve their own political body. Note the numbers: there's 23 members.

So who are these members? Up in Gortash's study, you can find this note discussing bribing, blackmailing, and threatening members of the Peers, which gives us the names of eight:

Five of these eight end up dead in the audience hall (Portyr, Jannath, Whitburn, Sashenstar, and Eomane).

As for the three Peers listed who don't end up in dead in the hall—Lady Ruth Linnacker, Lord Hir Rillyn, and Lady Haeril Vanthampur—let's look to this note:

Gortash has leverage against Ruth Linnacker through the abduction of her granddaughter, and I don't think it's unfair to assume Hir Rillyn and Haeril Vanthampur are similarly under Gortash's control, whether tadpoled or blackmailed (this is the one big assumption I had to make—bear with me!).

The other two with non-murderous leverage against them in the note above do end up dead, but I think there's some added context: I imagine Raylen Jannath is the husband of Wisteria Jannath, who Gortash canonically had an affair with (maybe it's personal? Maybe Raylen didn't care enough about the leverage of his own affair, if he knew she'd had one too?). For Portyr, there's the following in Gortash's study, noting he considers him a threat that shouldn't be underestimated, so he may not have wanted to stop at threats:

The inclusion of Portyr on the list of eight Peers could imply that the other three dukes are members of the Parliament of Peers, too. There's a book in Franc Peartree's house about the current state of who the dukes are, which I don't have my own screenshot of, but here's the relevant text from the wiki:

We know Belynne Stelmane is dead as part of the Bhaalist plot. Ulder Ravengard is tadpoled. The fourth duke was Thalamra Vanthampur, who's dead. They were waiting to replace her until Ravengard was found or confirmed gone—and Gortash was given this seat.

So, back to the original list of people murdered after the coronation. I bolded the names of those who aren't seemingly collateral damage (the bodyguards and attendants, and the unnamed patriars): there's 17.

17 killed after the coronation

Plus three Peers controlled through blackmail or other means

Plus Duke Stelmane and Duke Ravengard, dead and tadpoled respectively

That adds up to 22.

Add in Gortash's own vote, which he would have from taking (Thalamra) Vanthampur's seat, and you get 23.

The same number as the members of the Parliament of Peers.

Gortash didn't just orchestrate the Peers naming him the city's first Archduke, and he didn't just influence them to dissolve the political body that could vote another duke in. He made sure the individuals were destroyed, too.