THEM:
Hi
Reading one of your recent comments on Soo
It seems to be that you actually don't like her as a character not just the way she was written
I think, it's just my assumption consider her as weak and a bit stupid
Maybe I'm wrong
ME:
It's both how she was written as a character and the character herself. Lol I've watched this series over 6 times now (partly to enjoy it with friends but also to analyze the story and characters for my own writing.)
It may be the editing departments fault too with how they edited the final video
THEM:
I think that the writing has a couple of flaws as every script has and it's ok but I put all blame on director and editor team.
Also, I think you really underestimate her and putting definition of a strong female lead in a very classic dimension when it comes to judging Soo, idk about others.
She was pretty much silly in the first eps and I didn't like her either. But there so much development that made me grow to like her more and more.
After all, of it wasn't her nothing would have happened. Even Eun's death supposed to happen because she meant to be there to story that we know in modern days could happen.
She's not even a bit weak. Just out yourself a modern day girl into her condition. Time travel, deaths of people that important to you and not most of them aren't natural. Tortures, a year of hard work of a water maid, ruined health, always aching knees and problem with heart. Const fear of hurting and affecting somebody's life, holding back with a person you falling in love with, then watching how his marrying other woman and suffering because of it, then leaving him not because you don't love him but because you have to and there's no other choice.
She's relatable in so many aspects even in Goryeo era. She's not super smart or strong or anything else, that what makes her so human. But she is so compassionate, hardworking.
ME:
But it's not just my opinion 4 other of my friends (one of them having never seen Kdramas before) kinda of the same opinion. Her early eps were basically what kinda killed it.
Honestly my biggest thing is that there was no excuse for her behavior in the early episodes. (I didn't mind her too much after Court Lady Oh's death, but everything before that point she just didn't make sense to me... she would've realistically been executed) Even her being from another time can be a valid reason up to a point... before it becomes a writers scapegoat.
To me, if I had to pick a character from that show that was the most relateable and believably written, It would be Court Lady oh.
ME:
it's just there's things that are common sense and common knowledge that anyone of any social class (modern or ancient) would know, and she somehow... didn't??
how to speak to royalty, and not get in a fight with them being for starters LOL
ME:
the other things I can kinda loosely overlook as pure modern ignorance but there are some things that are just painfully jarring that make 0 sense for anyone in Korea or SE-Asia
ME:
the more I watch and try to find reasons to sympathize with her or justify her behavior the more I can't-- especially when my friends are also asking me questions about why she's behaving a certain way. LOL
I do try... I genuinelly do try (especially cause I want me friends to love this show as much as me) but I can't. xD I can't even objectively try to defend her character until after Court Lady Oh's death.
and by that point when it comes to hr and wang So's relationship I can feel even less empathy for it aside from his character... XD
ME:
I love wang So very very much, extremely deeply but their pairing made so little sense to me... that I couldn't even try to explain it to my friends xD
Maybe the original book was different, but, this show didn't make work... this could be the fault of the editors
and writers of the show
ME:
5 other friends of mine (my miscount I forgot how many I have seen this series with)
Today at 10:06 AM
THEM:
She was fearless and didn't want to let people humiliate her. Don't forget that she was a part of powerful Wook's household and people tear her as she is a mere child so I doubt that something would have happened to her. The only stupid thing that she did back then was beating Eun. She just couldn't stand his pervertism and decided to teach him a lesson.
I doubt that you know how to speak to medieval royalty as I have no clue how to speak to royalty from medieval Rus. Everything what I know is based on history books and tv series. I'm pretty sure it's far from accurate Also, Ha Jin's history knowledge was awfully poor. She couldn't even figure out that Gwangjong wasn't the second Goryeo king nor she didn't know that he actually didn't killed all his brothers. Her history knowledge was on a level of girl just appearing in history class auditorium without paying much attention.
For example? (What doesn't make sense for people in Kore and Asia)
Girl in original book is absolutely different just as 4th prince, they just took some main plot lines, everything else is different.
Their relationship was built on friendship, complete understanding of each other, they could see real nature of each other. Also, they're both idealistic and fight for truth, they're romantic and cherish freedom. They're really similar and I already told you about it.
ME:
you sound mad? O-o
are you mad at me or something?
cause again this is just my own view point. LOL
THEM:
Ahahah, no 😄
ME:
okay LOL
ME:
good
XD
THEM:
Sorry if I offend you
ME:
nah you didn't I was worried of the reverse
THEM:
I'm just giving you my point of view
ME:
^_^ ok
THEM:
Because I'm just upset that you would rather erase Hae Soo from the story when she's basically the core of this narration
ME:
LOL If I had to have a time traveling character beign the narration I'd persoanlly prefer a different character in her place. or even just have the narration from So's POV entirely or the original Hae Soo. :/ Sorry if I upset you
it's just my oppinion and I'm not trying to like force it on ya LOL
Today at 12:47 PM
THEM:
But was hwarang female lead brilliantly written and was their romance developed? Like just to compare historical dramas that you watched.
It's not just So's story, initially it is a girls story, Koreans decided to share the focus with male lead as well.
It's fine, I get it. And you wouldn't be able to do it anyway 😄
ME:
I liked the girl in the very very first episode. But after that first episode. THE VERY INSTANT SHE MET THE MALE LEAD... I ended up disliking her too
the romance in Hwarang was just as bad as SHR
THEM:
I'm afraid that you end up disliking all female leads in sageuk
ME:
after that point TBH I kinda realized maybe it was Korean's media where they're so focused on shoehorning and shoving poorly developed romance down people's throats....
yeahhhh probably
THEM:
But SoSoo wasn't poorly developed
Can't agree with you
It one of the most amazingly developed relationship in kdrama world
In fiction I've run into
And I love romance but only a good believable romance
ME:
if that's the case then I am absolutely mortified to see other shows in Korea if that was considered the best in Kdrama world
THEM:
Have you thought that it's a western mindset that makes you think that Soo and other female leads are weak
ME:
my friend found the way he acted after she said she understood him absolutely jarring today ROFL
THEM:
Ofc there are some one dimensional poorly written characters
But I honestly saw many great girls
ME:
Honestly I hate how a lot of media writes women in the West too
I do think it could be a culture thing for me too, that maybe Korea and Japan idiolize these meek weak kinda "dense and quirky" women that NEED a man to function
or at least the trope of it
THEM:
Why it's so understandable
ME:
in SE-Asian media
THEM:
There's a parallel between his conversation with mother and this moment with Soo
ME:
I know these countries are very sexist
and women don't get a lot of respect over there.
THEM:
Actually I feel like less sexist in historical way that Europe
In Japan there were women samurais
ME:
Oh I know
in history it was fine till we came and shoved our noses in it
THEM:
And I'm Goryeo women could divorce without damaging their honor
ME:
or with confusnism
THEM:
And all the property still belonged to them
ME:
I'm not completely naive about Japan XD I did do research on the Samurai
and the Minamoto family
I also know in the Three Kingdoms era women were of equal
THEM:
Japanese are more severe
ME:
in fact one of them ruled
err wait three of the women ruled
Silla
THEM:
Not completely equal but almost yeah
ME:
What I'm saying is the roles of women changed roughly around the Joseon Dynasty and into the era where Christians started butting in
well yeah not perfect but closer
ME:
then it all turned to shit
THEM:
Agree
ME:
And yes maybe my Western upbringing has a lot to do with how I see it, but then again, I loved characters like Court lady Oh, Queen Hwangbo, (Hell I would even say- despite her corruption and being written as a bitch/antagonist-) I enjoyed Yeon Hwa's character and felt she was wonderfully developed. (no I do NOT ship Yeon hwa with WAng So) But I loved ALL these characters way more then I liked Soo because I felt they were better written and developed over all.
Or WOo Hee
for that mater
I adored Woo hee and felt she was incredibly brace and strong
THEM:
Ok but all these woman were ready to kill
I like only Woo Hee from these three
ME:
Court Lady Oh wasn't willing to kill. Also Lady Hae herself was another powerful and strong woman in her own right and she wasn't gunna kill anyone
THEM:
But you say you liked these three
ME:
both these women would've died (and one of them did) to protect the people they loved
I forgot the other two xD
well I mentioned Court Lady Oh XD but yeah
basically any other woman in that show I found more engaging and compelling
THEM:
Even Chae ryung? 😄
But Yeon Hwa was snake as well
ME:
Soon Deok, Lady Oh, Lady Hae, Yeon Hwa, (hell even Yoo for being a horrible antagnosist and terible mother) Woo Hee....
all of these girls in my mind were better written and developed.
yes even Chae Ryung
I felt more emotion to all of these other women
THEM:
But she was an evil traitor and liar
ME:
in different ways
yes but I felt SOMETHING
I didn't nessicarily mean positive
THEM:
Ok then I can say one thing
ME:
or liking the character's decisions
XD
THEM:
You don't like Hae Soo in general
Bc it's impossible to the same writers to write all these women and So itself
To be poorly wrote Hae Soo in which I disagree ofc
THEM:
You just don't like her for her character
Like you found interesting everyone in this show except Hae Soo
ME:
XD No I don't her character or how she was written...I felt 0 empathy for her on any level as a viewer, and I felt over all she made no sense as a character and was too unrealistic as a believeable character. I felt and could relate to the other characters in different ways. Yeon hwa for all her treachery I could see she was blindly pursuing her goals to protect her family (even though it was wrong). Lady Oh and Lady Hae and Woo Hee all were amazing and brave women
yeah basically XD
I did
THEM:
Yeon Hwa wasn't protecting her family
Like never
ME:
It's not that I don't BLINDLY dislike her I have stated many times why I don't like or agree with her.
ehh true XD she was just poisoned with greed
but even she was interesting as a character
THEM:
She just wanted power
And So was for her just a beast to be tamed
When Soo saw in him a kind hearted human and friend
ME:
Well yeah XD
I never liked YH and So together either
THEM:
You didn't feel any empathy bc you didn't like her as a person, you felt no connection bc maybe you share only few traits with her. Most of the time when I watch dramas and movies, I feel no connection with characters. Especially western ones. I can say same things about beloved by many characters but I know that there are people who are like this particular heroine and they feel connection. Why she's not believable? She was betrayed many time, she fell for the wrong person, right person was always by her side and it took sonmuxh time to realize. She was to kind and to idealistic to realize many things earlier. I think it happened to many people.
I felt her extremely relatable bc I would act same in many situations. Who am I kidding I would gone crazy after few days. But she had strength to not give up and accept the reality and live.
She was acting so carelessly because she was allowed to, she felt love and protection from all the princes. She relaxed as if she was at home, in friendly atmosphere but after Lady Oh's death she realized that she can't and don't have right to live and behave like that anymore. It was a call that she's in medieval kingdom after all.
I'm just saying that you don't feel empathy bc you don't like her as a person. And I feel like you belittle her and her strength
THEM:
And I'm saying all of that considering how many times I was extremely mad at her and wanted to shout at her
Still I can't hate her or accuse in anything
She was in huge stress. She managed to survive for 10 in a toxic and suffocating atmosphere where she didn't belong.
ME:
Yeah. XD Honestly I've stated many points on why I didn't like how she was written or her character as a character/person XD My friend who watched this series with me kinda pointed out to me too that she felt Hae Soo was "literally there to further the drama and development of the princes and she's a badly done character that was done injustice by baaaaaaaad writing." And my friend is in honors classes full scholarship majoring in developmental psychology. She likes a LOT of fiction, TV and admits she loves almost all types of characters and in her own words "has no standards for writing" xD IDK maybe we just see things differently
My friend LOVED Wang so and the royal family and the story as a whole
ME:
she just didn't like Soo either
ME:
Maybe we should avoid the topic of Hae Soo when it comes to this show and stick to Wang So and the other Princes XD XD Cause yeah we'll never see eye to eye on it.
might be safer that way ahahah ^_^;;
I don't want to offend ya since you love her so much.
THEM:
I don't even love her so much
I really like her and I relate to her
ME:
Ah Ok LOL xD
Well either way
I just really don't wanna step on toes XD
THEM:
I just don't really get how you skip her in this story
THEM:
It's unfair
To the whole story and So itself
Because neither of it happened without her
She's a base of this story
THEM:
Like if there's poorly written character - Jung
Or he's just eternally stupid
ME:
I loved So's development as HIM I just wished Hae Soo's character was different then I might support it more.
THEM:
But she was a part of his development
He wouldn't have became king without her
ME:
I just didn't like him and Soo as a couple nor did I like how she was written nor her character itself.
I think he could've developed that same way were she a different person.
ME:
Eh it's kinda like friend said, she was a plot device in that respect. xD
THEM:
Fe
She wasn't a plot device, she was a center of this story
ME:
LOL Like I said, it's probably safer we don't bring up Hae Soo xD I could go on and on about Wang So and the rest of the family with positive praise. LOL
THEM:
Ok give me an example of what kind of different female lead should have been there
ME:
and deep love... but her... ehhhh
character type?
THEM:
I'm not the one who avoids uncomfortable topics
Yes
You also think she's unworthy of this love, right? Because she never showed it so openly as he did?
ME:
(strictly character personality types, not ethnicity) Woo Hee, Lady Oh, Rose Tyler, Arwen, I could hoenstly go on
THEM:
That's actually really funny that you mentioned lady oh
Bc it's an older version of Hae Soo
ME:
I mean after Lady Oh got wise
to the world
yes older and wiser
much older and wiser
matured
THEM:
But nobody gets as older and wiser in such young age
Without tough experience
THEM:
You get wisdom from experience
Fans you compare Woo Hee and Hae Soo/Ha Jin when they were raised ina different atmosphere
It's same as people were comparing Wook and So
ME:
I'm looking at personality types...
not characters and backstory
the**
THEM:
But their character traits came from their experience
ME:
I'm talking technical
Like the character breakdown in writing
THEM:
Oh, I see
THEM:
Idk neither Arwen or Rose
I can't see this kind of character in this kind of story
ME:
not the characters themselves or their history.
Well no one is an elf from another world of fiction the other is a 21st century girl from London. XD But their character traits and personality/flaws are what I'm talking about. Not who they are or where they're from
THEM:
Also, about Woo Hee. Her and Baek Ah and SoSoo are mirroring each other
Showing that this type of people have light inside of them but life made them tondo some things that were corrupting them from the inside
ME:
ehhhhhh they're different people
maybe
THEM:
They need someone with the light to help them to return to their natural state
To soften their thorns
That they forced themselves to grow in order to survive
THEM:
Both of them didn't to chose to be who they are, the had to do it
The other thing that showing is a Soo and Baek Ah talk in ep 19
Soo talks with Baek Ah possibly having her and So in mind
Saying that Woo Hee wasn't selfish enough, she's the one who left and she's a bad guy
ME:
hahahahahha yeahhh mental illnesss doesn't work that way... honestly that little comment really ticked me off.
THEM:
Possibly referring to herself, fully recognizing that she and So weren't selfish and she's the bad guy, she hurts him badly by leaving him
But as Woo Hee (here a woman sacrifice parallel) she leaves to protect So and their baby
Which comment?
ME:
the whole Woo Hee was the bad guy for killing herself
kinda thing
ME:
the context and situation was just bad
for that cosnidering she committed suicide
THEM:
She was more talking about herself
THEM:
But she committed suicide not bc of mental illness
She did that for Baek Ah and her people
ME:
LOL Woo hee and soo are nothing alike... especially in that respect.
THEM:
They both sacrificed their happiness for their beloved
Soo just didn't die
ME:
Woo Hee was unhappy from the start
THEM:
Bc she was already severely ill and she had to deliver a healthy child
ME:
even Baek Ah noticed that
THEM:
Ofc she was
She was a princess of fallen kingdom
And had to become a kisaeng
ME:
She probably suffered from depression and that was partially what drove her to suicide.
THEM:
I think every single person in this story suffered from depression
ME:
Well yeah....
xD
in some ways
But she was an extreme case
THEM:
The other thing that her existence itself gave hope to Baekje people that their kingdom will be restored
And So?
ME:
So is a whole other can of worms with mental illness
probably PTSD just to start
THEM:
Let's be honest
As a physical illnesses
There's no completely mentally healthy person in this world
And Soo? You think she wasn't traumatized?
She had, in my opinion, the least stable situation
ME:
she probably was and should've been...
ME:
but the thing is
THEM:
Because the huge contracts of upbringing and the reality she was put in
The weight of responsibility and fear
Fear that consumes
ME:
that's even more of a reason why I felt she and So shouldn't have ever gotten together... and that their relationship (on top of the country) was toxic
and unhealthy
and should have never happened.
and probably wouldn't have in reality
THEM:
I just really familiar with this feeling when fear just blocks your rationality bc you just don't want to mess up
Toxic and unhealthy?
THEM:
There weren't any attachment, obsessions
Jealousy
And other stuff
ME:
jealousy lies, possessiveness. For both of them it was an emotionally abusive relationship
THEM:
Lies happens in all relationship
Jealousy when?
Emotional pain was cause not by them but by the circumstances they were put in
ME:
she got sulky when he got married to Mu's kid (WHO WAS LIKE 12) she got jealous of YH,
THEM:
If they lived in a hut in that village they would have grow old together with a lot of children
It wasn't jealousy
THEM:
She thought he might be after throne
And it's his ambition
When she got jealous of Yeon Hwa?
ME:
when she mentioned getting married to him... it wasn't outward but she refused to let go and see that she was not good for him as Queen.
it was only when Ji Mong finally shut her down and told her how it is
that it finally sunk in
anyway this is just going in circles
it's perspective and opinion.
there's not enough content in the show to properly psycho analyze the characters
sadly
ME:
sadly**
THEM:
Omg
She wasn't jealous
She simply didn't want the love of her lie to get married to other woman
ME:
So was jealous of her though... and possessive
THEM:
Bc she knew he didn't want it too
He loves her
ME:
I love him and I could justify it rationally
THEM:
And proposed to her
ME:
honestly it shouldve ended after Eun's death if not before then.
THEM:
Relationship you're talking about is a complete utopia
No lies, no jealousy
ME:
LOOOL nah
THEM:
Lies that told each other was motivated to protect each other for good
Lame motive but still
ME:
well yeahhhh it's called an honest and healthy one XD I'm not saying their aren't struggles but you don't lie to the person you claim to love.
THEM:
In toxic relationship lies is motivated to manipulate your partner into doing what you want
ME:
Lame motive and toxic in reality
THEM:
Ofc you don't
But you're measuring everyone from a modern mindset not considering that there's a whole empire on a stake besides them
THEM:
That's the conflict of a whole story
You can't have both a throne and love
There's only one thing you can hold
It not toxic
It's problematic
Toxic a strong word
ME:
I'm very tempted to actually ask a psychologist this very thing
someone who is certified to say what is toxic relationship and not given that period
just to see if it's promlematic or genuinely a toxic circumstance
THEM:
And when you say emotional pain. Well, in toxic relationship, emotional abuses is an intentional thing, right? They never did that, they never did something to each other to hurt and make them feel worse or unworthy, they did say something things to push each other bc they thought it would be better for them and will keep them safe.
THEM:
I saw many discussions on tumblr on that matter
Even from a psychologist
ME:
uhhh unfortuantely tumblr is an echochamber of biasness
THEM:
People who said it's toxic mainly aimed it on So
ME:
and nah it's not always intentional
THEM:
Other people said it's not
And toxic relationship Soo nactually had with Wook
ME:
you can be abusive and not realize it
THEM:
But it's a natural thing
We grow like that
THEM:
It makes us stronger and wiser
Then Baek Ah and Woo Hee is toxic
Seon Deok and Wang Eun is toxic
Ten and Rose is toxic
Everything single relationship on tv and books is a toxic things
ME:
Well asking my friend (who's taking psych) whether Soo and So were toxic... she didn't think so but she did think they weren't good for each other
THEM:
Toxic is when relationship brings more pain and discomfort that joy and happiness but you can't quit due to development attachment and feelings
When it destroys your heart and soul
Am I right?
But SoSoo weren't destroyed by their love. They were destroyed by life and time, love was the only thing that brighten their days and kept them alive
ME:
I wanted her imput because I feel she'd be more relatlly qualified and I DO sometimes misuse words
THEM:
Now tell me, please, what are you favourite romances in fictional world that you think are healthy and perfect. So I could wholly understand your pov.
ME:
There aren't any "perfect ones" but offhand Arwen and Aragorn... no not perfect but it was real Beren and Luthien, my friend said : A Court of Thorns and Roses Sarah J Mass Rhys/Freyre
also IMHO Keeping someone "safe" through lying takes away their agency and makes it seem like they're not competent to handle the situation
Also jack/Ianto were great. 10/Rose Tyler were great they weren't perfect...
I don't read a lot of fiction I mostly watch TV shows and movies
ME:
also katara and Anng from that TV series Avatar
aang*
PiperxLeo from Charmed
ME:
Phoebe/Cupe from Charmed as well
ME:
Peggy Carterx Steve Rogers
THEM:
But Hae Soo actually couldn't handle the situation, like she couldn't stop the bloodshed in Wang family, only So could.
And when she was leaving him, she actually knew that he can hadnlaw the situation and marry her but it lead to clans rebellion, more blood and it will put him in huge danger
It wasn't a modern word, it's not that simple
Come on, like Ten didn't lie to Rose and didn't hurt her? Can't comment others not familiar
Piper and Leo - jealousy, lies, emotional hurting check check check, they even divorced
I'm mentioning things that you said about SoSoo, that's why I'm so repetitive
Phoebe and Cupe were unrealistically ideal and sugary and plane in my opinion
ME:
I have read the comics too
THEM:
Peggy and Steve they didn't even have a relationship
Even a proper date
Oh well
THEM:
I'm judging by the movies
It's just what you're mentioning appearing everywhere, in my opinion, it's just a context
That makes it's toxic or not
ME:
it's been years since I saw Charmed so I'd have to rewatch it the show again.
THEM:
Sometimes this checklists with definitions don't work
I was obsessed so I remember some things
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