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miadraws0 · 15 days ago

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Spider Themes: Partial empathy and the effects of utilitarianism

A huge Spider centric philosophy rant where I’ll digress many times(sorry)

The Phantom troupe is an embodiment of the Robinhood troupe as much as it is a deconstruction and subversion of it. https://www.tumblr.com/nynyhaha/761225991501873152/phantom-troupe-failed-robinhoods

They don’t do what they do for fame or money,but when it comes to using horrible means for noble ends,they also fail. After years of pondering the Spider’s purpose,I’ve found that seeing them as a warped version of heroes makes the most sense. Ex-child soldiers,running rampant after they’ve outlived the anticipated period of self appointed service.

After Sarasa’s death Chrollo clearly states that he sees no possibility for achieving his goals peacefully, in his eyes they never had a chance to accomplish anything while staying the good guys.

Of course he couldn’t succeed if he didn’t even try! But why didn’t he,and why is there so little stopping a person as caring,responsible and community-minded as him from turning around and betraying humanity at large,detaching himself from all the good he could’ve caused?

I love that Togashi let the not yet Spiders as well as us,the audience,see this typical hero cartoon for children where the good always wins because of the magical purity of their hearts. Where if they just believe hard enough,it will be fine.

In reality..all Chrollo can do is bring flowers to honour the graves.

It means there was always a separation between fiction and reality for him,despite being eager to watch and dub the power-cleaners story,Chrollo never believed it. Or maybe he did before he found Sarasa,after which all the illusions he might’ve had shattered.

The knows it takes a sacrifice to make great change,not just of his life but of his morals.

Chrollo shows an unusual level of self awareness for a child. In the following panel he announces he’s going to become a villain. Not a rebel with a cause,or a noble avenger,a VILLAIN. His view is so pessimistic,that it must take a villain to defeat villains. There’s no way to keep his “pure heart” and all this talk about ✨faith✨ was bullshit. To me this is a very interesting summery of Chrollo’s view of his role. It’s how he assesses it before he actually does anything,which makes it all the more fascinating since we don’t know how much his outlook changed once he actually started his plans. Or do we?

Why utilitarianism? Isn’t the regret he shows here in advance indicative of deontology?

If I was tasked with defending the Spiders and presenting them in a more favourable light,I’d pull up with the combo of

-“us vs them” -> they were defending their very marginalised community that the world turned its back on,against such horrible organisations as the mafia. Their initial mission is self defense. One might also look at it the way aot fans do,where being mistreated by outsiders justifies crimes against them.

-utilitarian principles-> even if innocent people were hurt in the process,it’s worth it in the end because a greater number of innocents are saved.

Chrollo however,simply says he’s going to kill a lot of people,not specifying if

-he will kill more people than he’ll save

-he will kill more innocent people than he’ll save

-he will only kill bad people

-he will kill outsiders for the sake of meteorians

But I assume he’s going to kill those whose lives he still values,why else would he feel bad about it? In that moment we see a person who is torn between two extremes,and chooses one whole acknowledging the other.

Chrollo in that instance does NOT believe that killing evil outsiders is a righteous quest he’ll embark on,neither does he believe that killing many,even for the sake of saving many,is justified. He still decides to do it,just not as a hero,but as a villain.

Sarasa wouldn’t want it because she didn’t live long enough to experience loss and hate,altho she did experience extreme pain so who’s really to say she wouldn’t have wanted revenge? Either way,it seems Chrollo isn’t just talking about going against Sarasa’s principles,he’s talking about abandoning his own,that the two of them shared until she died together with his naivety and innocence.

The last three speech bubbles are the most puzzling for me. Unless by “repenting” he means being held accountable and paying for their crimes,this opens up crazy ideas about those kinds of people actually feeling bad about their crimes.And the notion that legal systems are powerful enough to cause such changes in a person.

This raises the question whether Chrollo will ever repent for his crimes.The answer is yes,he did already…Before he even committed anything.💀💀

Since this post is a HxH analysis mixed with philosophy,let’s look at honouring vs promoting values.

Honouring the value of human life would mean never ever taking it(Sarasa’s alleged view)

Promoting its value in this case would mean fighting for the recognition of meteorian lives by the world and stopping the mafia from killing more kids,even if for that you’d need to kill (Chrollo’s path)

In short,kid Chrollo holds values he’s willing to break and about to abandon.

The Spider ends up operating on the two principles mentioned above,valuing the whole over individuals and acting in favour of Meteor City at the cost of outsiders.

When I say “utilitarianism” I don’t mean maximising good or happiness,but acting in favour of the goal/organisation above all else

Inheriting values:One for all and all for one

The Elder here promotes the value of life of his people,he’s willing to sacrifice 31 of them to do so. Mathematically this seems stupid at first:killing 30 more people than the one originally harmed? Couldn’t more lives be saved by inaction? Couldn’t Chrollo keep his friends rather than losing four more over the death of one?

But,consider how this incident paints Meteor City,how actually standing up for themselves in such a brutal way does a great deal of inflicting fear on the world,likely preventing it from wronging Meteor City again. 31 people may die for the message,but spreading the message will help the sum of people living in Ryuseigai. Well,it’s supposed to help,and for the sake of argument let’s say it does.

Similarly 13 people giving up their lives can help the community as a whole. Will I ever shut up about the Spiders breaking the mafia deal? No.Because by doing so,they accept the responsibility of protecting their home from any threats AND getting the necessary money(haha,it can never be enough)

If just 13 people will commit enough crime to gather whatever the mafia was previously paying the city,there won’t be any need for human trafficking AND they’ll commit the crimes on their own terms! ✨Independence✨ through 🕸Spider Scapegoats🐐

Basically,the Phantom Troupe can be the sole solution to many problems,even if they’ll never solve the core of them. That,and the immense pressure that lies on them,might lead to nihilism and loss of any motivation which drove them to start what they do in the first place.

The loss of empathy

Chrollo’s definiting character trait is his relationship with humanity and his connection/disconnection from it. He’s speaking as if he’s not human himself,and in the fight vs Hisoka he displays just how deep he’s sunk on his journey.

He uses bodies as instruments(for utility),specifically the bodies of the audience(people who might not be “innocent”but have very little to do with him). He couldn’t care less about them. The Elder used the bodies of his own comarades,but how much did he care about them if he was capable of such a thing?

The Elders remain enigmatic but my impression of them is that of a powerful but inefficient council of people whose task is so enormous it numbed them to minor things such as necessary deaths. Much like the Spiders,the Elders have to use horrible means for an end too big to achieve. They don’t even have an end,they just run the worlds biggest orphanage and homeless shelter,a “safe” oasis for anyone abandoned and wronged by the world. They’re supposed to be fixing whatever injustice there is,they’re peak philanthropists and altruists,so much so that they’re willing to kill and arguably sell out (traffic) a number of residents for the sake of the whole of them.

It’s a matter of scale for them. Or maybe not even,it might not be about efficiency anymore.

They’re not unlike normal politicians,arguing about semantics instead of taking action. At least in that way the Spiders are better,and since “nothing has changed” the chapter illustrates exactly why the Spider is needed,the Elders have apparently always held this outlook.

Yes,because they actually go deal with the problem and figure out if the transformed residents can turn back. When they can’t,we see them expressing sadness about it

We even got Fei looking sad. Sad.FEITAN.Am I hallucinating?

Once Phinks figures out a way around feeling too bad about killing their fellow citizens,the other Spiders also regain their confidence,now knowing what to do. I’m grateful for the manga because the anime wasn’t as expressive with their expressions,lol.

We clearly see them concerned for people outside the troupe,and while Phinks hates feeling pity because he sees it as dishonourable for the ones turned,it’s obvious that that’s what he experiences.

Speaking of Chrollo..Wasn’t Phinks the one arguing against going to save him?

Self dehumanising/Cog in the machine

While the strong bons between members humanise them to no end and create the cognitive dissonance (how can this silly friend group commit such atrocities?) they actually show quite well just how much they have to put on line to live as they do.

If the Spiders didn’t care as much for each other we wouldn’t care as much for them either,and we wouldn’t see what the Spider-set up takes from them.

Firstly we have Shal causally determining someone’s worth by their ability ✨😀

Next we have Shizuku calmly speaking of her death as if she’s talking about the weather

This moment especially shows how much Chrollo’s cold,tactical approach can hurt,cause I was pretty annoyed at him at that moment. He’s only being reasonable tho,wanting to avoid more deaths while Nobunaga is being emotional. Still,his friend just died and while not letting that death influence them to the point of losing more people makes sense,the way Chrollo phrases it “you were willing to die,so Uvo was ok dying but those other members are crucial so they need to live” is very cynical. We know Chrollo is far from accepting Uvo’s death and his way of coping through the requiem can only do so much,however when he needs to,he shuts his emotions off completely.

Judging each other’s worth based on ability and how strategically useful they are to the Spider runs contrary to the notion of friendship,it forces them to see themselves and each other as instruments,as mere cogs in the machine. While some Spiders hold those principles more strongly,the whole organisation operates this way.

Chrollo designed it that way,since they all went into it ready to give up their lives,he made the organisation a priority but not the individual. Still,when the time finally comes to out his ideas to the test,only several members stay true to his principles.

This is the same Phinks who acted like a girly girl with a crush,worrying about Chrollo,unable to wait. Ok,maybe losing Pakunoda and seeing Chrollo through her eyes changed him,but I don’t think that’s likely. Phinks cares about Chrollo but he cares about the Spider more.

Feitan will also break rules of negotiation and risk Chrollo’s life to find out more information. He seems to see no obligation whatsoever to play fair and obey the enemy’s rules,I also don’t believe he has a concept of 🕸honour among thieves🕸but he did max out on loyalty.

While Phinks’ and Feitan’s actions seem to just stir up trouble,once we understand their pov it all makes sense.

If you put the Spider first,why would you NOT go above and beyond to ensure you have all knowledge you could possibly get and secure the most advantageous position? He’s not doing that because he’s a sneaky little shit but because he’s operating on the principle of maximising the Spider’s strategic advantage!(im such a good advocate for my boys)

We also can’t forget that the well-being of the Spider as a whole overlaps with the well-being of the majority of its legs,which means choosing the spider in practice is synonymous with playing it safe and protecting the remaining members

As harsh and damaging their approach may be,in some way it’s inevitable. There was no right choice in this dilema,and there was also very little certainty so it was a matter of trust.

-Kurapika might play dirty and actually control Pakunoda as far as they know

-Its Chrollo’s death vs a guaranteed but unspecified number of Spider deaths

-preventing further deaths is good both for the whole and the individual members

Also Chrollo being “worthless as a hostage” might just mean he’s on a democratic standing with the rest and isn’t more important than them. He likely made this rule to prevent others dying for him just because he’s Danchou (and failed)

Conclusion: An organisation such as the troupe HAS to operate on utilitarianism if it

-serves an important purpose (guard dog of Meteor City)

-is valuable by itself and most concerned with persisting

No matter how you look at it, whether the Troupe selflessly performs acts of necessary evil for their people,or if it’s a cult/collective entity that exists without any clear reason,it’s survival is more important than the survival of its individual members. Which is a shame,because it poisons the very bonds that were formed while they fought for their cause side by side.

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