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jamie is weird so i like to imagine he eats weird too

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grownups

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just finished reading thinking outloud and aside from complimenting you on how amazingly done it is, i wanted to let u know that jamie and santiago look like me and my partner to a wild degree (and are even similar in terms of me being outgoing and silly and him being quiet and more serious). uhhh alt universe where they date lol 😂

Look out your window

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what is [redacted]? ...is there a weird gay thing going on here ..? aka caves' third theory (THIS theory gives important context for this one!)

Obviously, by the end of 'open', it's implied that [redacted] is santiago cheating on his girlfriend. But... i have reason to doubt this, and reason to believe that [redacted] has more to do with jamie than one might initially think. Just to preface, this theory operates under the assumption [redacted] is NOT the name of a yet-unmentionned girlfriend. If I turn out to be wrong about this, uhh uhh i'm sorry. idk

I think it's safe to say the comic is very clever and well-thought out. it's safe to assume there is a LOT of intention put into the details (for example, the tall girl's jacket having an owl. more on that some other time). So if there WAS a girlfriend, why wouldn't she have been implied to already, even implicitly? when santiago thinks about jamie and the tall girl, his thoughts take their form. when he thinks of the hanna(h)s, we see them.

but there's not even an implication to him even blocking or scribbling out a 'girlfriend'. it feels incredibly odd, for someone who would presumably be so important to him- it's just always jamie this jamie that. i feel like there might not actually be a girlfriend, and that the girls on the couch claiming santiago cheated got a watered down, broken-telephone version of whatever the actual events of [redacted] are (i mean, they thought santiago was mexican, and jamie's childhood friend-- i don't think they're the most reliable of sources.)

I thought at first mmmaybe santiago's gf cheated on him, maybe even with jamie, but on second thought i don't think that holds up. santiago keeps talking like jamie did something to him, specifically. santiago is already furious at jamie PRIOR to the doorslam, citing how jamie does 'this' (does what?! embarasses santiago by making a scene?) 'every damn time'.

this is also something santiago is implied to have liked about jamie, in the past- how jamie would invite him along and go out of his way to make him feel included/a part of things. So what changed?!

Santiago later says, 'why do i keep forgiving him?' which implies jamie has done things on the scale of (or that santiago INTERPRETS as being on the scale of) the doorslam before. but we don't see them, just like how we don't see [redacted]. This makes me think [redacted] and whatever jamie has done are connected, if not the same.

We know [redacted] is something santiago is made very uncomfortable/upset by the mention of, but jamie is able to say pretty easily. we know santiago thinks everyone hates him for some reason. we know that santiago has hated around the last 3 parties he's been to. we know santiago USED to enjoy parties, mostly because of jamie's company and influence. but isn't this the exact same situation as before, jamie bringing him along to try and give him a good time? what caused his opinion on jamie to flip so extremely, when he seemed so enamored with him before? santiago says to jamie, 'things changed, why couldn't you?' ...so what changed? how is it that he wants jamie to change, and why, when he used to be glad to hang out with him as is? this, and the fact that 'brain/silhouette jamie' brings up 'people at parties' (notice how it says PEOPLE, not JAMIE/'HIM') in rebuttle to santiago's defense of jamie,

means the 'people' or 'person' being implied to here is not jamie.

...could it be santiago himself? then santiago's insistence 'he didn't mean it!' 'he doesn't mean it when he does these kinds of things!' works as a double-entendre; he's also telling himself HE didn't mean whatever he did.

Santiago is scared of being recognised on page 8 of open, but is relieved when it's just from the doorslam.

I think this means he's done something (he at least thinks is?) big/public before that he's afraid of being recognised from - this could also explain why he assumes everybody hates him and wants to kill him, because he hates himself and is projecting his own shame outwards. Even though jamie assures him people at the party don't know about [redacted], he still has an inflated idea that Everyone Knows What He Did. This makes me think [redacted] is also whatever 'thing' he doesn't want to be recognised from.

So... if santiago is afraid of being recognised publicly, and he's furious with jamie for previously 'doing something' with him that was public, or... 'open' (as is the name of the chapter)... I think [redacted] is something both jamie and santiago took part in (with maybe santiago doing whatever the more 'visible' part of it is? or maybe it was just a bigger deal to santiago than jamie); probably something jamie has done before/is known for, but santiago hasn't/isn't. when jamie leans down and says 'i'm so sorry.' santiago is obviously... moved? sad?? something!! it's obviously not just his reaction to jamie apologising for the doorslam specifically. jamie has done something in the past that santiago wishes he would apologise for properly.

alright. here's the kicker that all this buildup has been heading towards: i think maybe jamie and santiago may have kissed/made out (probably drunk), and did so where other people could see it. santiago may even have initiated it.

This would explain why santiago freaks out that the girls say he 'cheated on a girlfriend' (they never say who they think he 'cheated' with!)- he's freaked out that people know he kissed jamie (jamie could also be mistaken for a girl because of his long hair!). It also explains why he suddenly hates jamie and wants him to change: he wants to keep being friends, but doesn't want to risk it happening again (&rather than examine within himself why it happened, he pins it on 'how jamie is'). And why he thinks people hate him/want to kill him; because he (a guy) kissed another guy. this could also be why, even though he's so rageful towards him, santiago keeps hanging out with jamie-- he might feel like he's stooped to his level, and that it's on him for going along with or initiating it. a 'he's made his bed, now he must lie in it' kind of thing. all the things he criticizes jamie for, and the intensity of his anger at him, make a lot of (if not more) sense if you look at it like he's projecting his own anger at himself.

(↑ +also why is he imagining jamie's UNDERWEAR?? WTF??????) he thinks other people hate him for what he did, but jamie doesn't. jamie doesn't judge him for it (probably because it wasn't a big deal to him- which may even be another reason santiago is so upset about it), so even if santiago blames jamie, he still... kind of needs him, in a way. it's a weird combination of self-harm and validation. this might also be why he 'keeps forgiving' jamie- because he wants to forgive himself, too.

this also adds a new layer of significance to the amount he stresses calling jamie his friend- not only is he trying to stop himself from being mad at him, he's trying to stop himself from thinking of him as anything more.

There's also some metatextual evidence supporting me that these ↓ are just some of. im not pulling this out of my ass right?? these ↓ r straight from the source. like am i sniffing mold spores or is some 5d chess im too dumb to understand going on here.

n e weys thats all for now. let me know your guyses thoughts 'cause im totally open to changing my mind on anything, if theres any holes in my logic please poke them, i kind of want to be wrong but this is the best explaination i could come up with based on what we've got so far. if anything this thoery probably says more about me than the comic, lol....

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some homies but ib this......... dont think i nailed the style 100% but still funz :-)

Man I love Thinking Out Loud, especially all the faces and expressions!

Thank you!

My last webcomic was about aliens who had really abstract faces, and even though this was mainly motivated by trying to be more creative in my creature design abilities, I realized I was also avoiding having to draw people for fear of not being good enough at drawing human faces.

So when I decided to make Thinking Out Loud, I challenged myself to draw as many weird and interesting background characters as possible.

I don’t like when there’s a disparity between main character designs and background characters, so I wanted every schmuck in the background to be as fully fleshed out as possible as if they could be the main character of their own story. So, I made a 50 square grid and just filled it with headshots I could pull from whenever I needed to populate an environment in the comic.

I realize I just kinda co-opted this ask to espouse my process when nobody asked, but I thought it was interesting lol. Anyway, hope you enjoy these freaks.

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ill delete this later but ohhh ohhhh i called this so hard (not to sound like. cocky). lost at sea was so influential to me u cant expect me not to like Taste its Taste on things.

also apropos of nothing everybody should read serenity rose RIGHT NOW volume 1 is from 2002 and STILL free to read on the author's site, if u like TOL i think u could really like it too its one of my favourite comics ever (vol 1 at least imo it fell off a bit in 2&3- plus the designs changed in a way thats just less appealing to me personally)

its about this kinda depressed witch and her baka little life its awesome and i first read it when i was like 11 and didnt fully understand it (kinda like lost at sea) but its actually so funny and has this undercurrent of maturity and gweh idk reminds me ethoswise of tol, serenity reminds me of santiago a bit with her sardonic narration

this is making me wanna post this old essay i did comparing lost at sea to stop-zemlia and the great gatsby ,this is making me want to do an analysis of srose ohhh i fear i am not normal about comics. i fear

i love TOL so much its actually gimving me brain worms im a huge comic nerd and it gives off the same vibe as some of my fav comics ever like serenity rose or lost at sea or the gulf it feels like an old alt 'classic' i wouldv read when younger and changed my brain chemistry (it still is)... so so good and your paneling and page layout and characterisation all make it flow so well and its so easy to get invested in the characters.. jamie and santiago are real and They are my Friends... their dynamic and world feel so lively and real.... i love how you play with comic conventions in using the thought/narrative bubble and turning it into voiced speech its so clever and awesome... your inking is so alive and dynamic... i havent been this ThinkingAbout a comic in ages. would buy in print. ps do u have any comic reccomendations/what comics inspires you?

Thank you so much!! This kind of manic obsession is what all true comic creators dream of, so it touches my heart <3

My main inspirations for making TOL were black and white comics I read as a kid but didn't fully understand at the time, like Bone, This One Summer, and (like you mentioned) Lost at Sea!

Lost at Sea in particular was a huge emotional cornerstone for me when I was younger, and was one of the main reasons I kept TOL in black and white. I read it when I was too young to really understand what the characters were going through, but I could tell there was something really emotionally powerful going on below the surface, and it stuck with me into adulthood. The fact that the world in that story had been abstracted by only existing in black and white only made it more mysterious and fascinating to me.

I have such an affinity for B&W comics. It simultaneously makes a piece feel more obtuse and obscured without the specificity of color, but it also makes it all the more personal and unique to each reader who fills in the gaps with their imagination. That's what I'm going for with TOL anyway.

I know some people have only read comics like Bone and Scott Pilgrim in color because it adds a whole new level of artistic expression to enjoy in a story, but I encourage people to revisit their favorite comics if they were originally printed in b&w to see how different they feel without color.

As for other comics I recommend, I really love Blankets, Keeping Two, Ducks, and The Sculptor.

These are all sophisticated creme de la creme novels that really touch on some intensely beautiful themes, and I can't recommend them enough to people who want to read a comic with some real maturity.

But what if you like comics with action and fantasy and cool shit that are also top of the line? Then I recommend Kaya, Ultramega, Do A Powerbomb, and most importantly: Coda.

These comics are so amazingly well drawn and are told incredibly well, but Coda, drawn by Matias Bergara and written by Si Spurrier is probably my favorite comic ever and I recommend it to literally everyone. It's the comic that pulled me out of my era of reading shonen manga slop and made me start reading western comics obsessively.

The duo also made Step By Bloody Step, a comic told without any words- only pictures. This is the kind of thing you have to read if you want to really understand what the comics medium is capable of.

ANYWAY. That's my reading list. Creators like Hayao Miyazaki, Cliff Chiang, Moebius, Frank Pe, Kei Urana, and Ryoko Kui are also amazing and you should check out their works as well.

I'm making physical copies of TOL chapter 1, and at the end I'm also gonna include a reading list of comics made by indie creators who I'm lucky enough to call my friends for people to check out, but that's a post for a different time.

I hope people will read at least one book from this list. Thanks for reading my ramblings!

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Gonna answer some TOL related asks later today since I’ve been getting so many messages about it lately

Sorry for taking so long on responding to these. I feel weird about publicly sharing compliments for my art, but there’s also some really good questions people asked mixed in and I wanna answer those. If you sent me an ask already, rest assured I read all of them and appreciate all the kind words!!

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does santiago have bpd? (and does jamie have AuDHD?)

Wether intentional or not, santiago displays a lot of symptoms of bpd. Specifically, I want to look at his habit of 'splitting', and how Santiago seems to apply it to Jamie.

'Splitting' is basically the tendency to think in extremes- basically going from seeing something as 'all good' to 'all bad'. it's also called 'black-and-white thinking' or 'all-or-nothing' thinking. The second term is also interestingly relevant (though, again, probably not intentionally) because the comic itself is deliberately only in black and white. 'my head feels like like it's gonna split right open.' is the VERBATIM blurb underneath TOL's title on comicfury.

Santiago has a hard time telling other people's intentions. He automatically assumes the worst in situations; that people are out to harm him, that he's gonna die, etc.

but he's also concious of the fact these thoughts are unreasonable! when he's aware that he's doing it, he tries to stop his thoughts, mostly in defense of jamie.

underneath santiago's surface-level violent thoughts (something in and of itself common in bpd) and 'hatred' of jamie, there's an incredible almost reverence for him, and a deep fear of being abandoned. he constantly assumes jamie is beloved by all, despite evidence pointing to that most people just think he's weird.

he automatically assumes jamie has left him, shows himself 'evidence' that jamie actually doesn't care about or respect him, tells himself he needs to find jamie or else people will kill him (although probably hyperbole, the sentiment is still there). when his fear of jamie abandoning him is seemingly confirmed (even if it turns out to be untrue!), his brain pulls a 'see? i told you so!' about it.

santiago's fear of being abandoned by jamie could also be the reason he keeps coming to parties even when he hates them; he'd rather put up with jamie's 'bullshit' than risk losing him. we know jamie helped get santiago out of his shell; santiago sought out his friendship to some degree because of how much he admired him. jamie made him feel included and wanted, and even in the prologue we see how he's constantly being kind to and reassuring santiago. he cares a lot about what santiago thinks/how santiago will react to things. It's speculation, but could jamie know how much reassurance santiago needs, espeically from him?

if santiago has gone through this cycle of idealization/disillusionment with jamie before, jamie might have reason to believe santiago would 'snap' at him again (please don't take this as me villainizing people with bpd this isnt a moral judgement), which could also explain why he doesn't want santiago to be mad, and why he runs away after the doorslam.

speaking of the doorslam, when jamie reaches for santiago after it occurs, santiago cannot read his expression.

santiago is unable to tell if jamie legitimately intended to hurt him, he doesn't know wether to trust him or not. his perception of jamie is up in the air. it's been skewing negative, but now there might be proof jamie actually hates him and wants him dead! It also explains this reaction.

By apologising, Jamie is being reset in Santiago's brain as 'good'. because santiago is unable to think in greys, jamie can either only be 'good' or 'bad' at a time. he's 'redeeming' himself in santiago's eyes. which is why, then, here,

jamie is reset as 'bad' again. we can even witness this happening in real time:

'ugh, i can't believe him.' he wants to forgive jamie and have him be 'good' -> 'actually, maybe i can believe it.' nope, jamie is 'bad'. santiago's thinking in extremes, too; 'the one time [...]'.

It's phenomenal how well we're put into santiago’s shoes if he’s 'splitting'. His actions seem totally reasonable based on the information we're given (the information SANTIAGO has and how he processes it). We're able sympathize with him and understand why he feels the way he does, experiencing something that's often heavily stigmatized.

part 2: does jamie have AuDHD?

In the same way santiago displays behaviours common in BPD, Jamie displays behaviours common to ADHD/Autism. I want to specify here when I say AuDHD I don't mean it in the watered-down, pop culture way it's come to be associated with. Because people/characters with autism & adhd are so often infantilised, the knee-jerk reaction to 'Jamie might be autistic/have ADHD' might be to go 'but he's such an asshole!' but the thing is, very often in real life, ADHD/autistic people, especially undiagnosed ones, are seen as assholes or inconsiderate because of their inability to empathise with or understand other people's emotions, and their impulsive tendencies.

This also could explain Jamie's complete literalness. He takes everything Santiago says at face value. He even tries to explain a very obvious joke to santiago, probably because (as expanded on HERE) he would want someone else to explain it to him and make sure he's not confused.

Jamie's way of speaking is also very strange for someone of his age/gender. At first he comes accross as a typical bro-ish kind of speaker, lots of 'dude's and 'man's. but shoesies? Having a 'strange' or uncommon vocabulary is something really common to autistic individuals (as is probably obvious from a quick peruse of my blogue).

Jamie does not appear to understand social conventions. This could also be a reason for him going to parties; things that are in other contexts 'offputting' or 'bizarre' about him become acceptable and even fun.

although the girls here ^ are talking about how 'funny' jamie is, it's got a mocking undertone. they're not laughing with jamie, they're laughing at jamie. but because santiago has this preconcieved notion in his head that everybody loves jamie, as the biased narrator he is, he becomes frustrated at their praise of jamie, and how it contradicts his current feelings on him.

That's all to say~..! Wether or not santiago and jamie are purposefully written as bpd/audhd, they do a really good job of realistically and empathetically portraying the traits of those disorders without villainizing or infantilizing them. myself and my friends who have these things are able to see the things we do reflected almost to a t, and it's very relatable and comforting :-) thank you to gray & mari for first suggesting this theory to me, and gracia and aida for giving me feedback!

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jamie but aweosme

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santiago is an unreliable narrator.

Because Thinking Out Loud is told through Santiago's perspective --and the pacing and panel layouts are so intuitive to follow-- it's easy to forget our perception of the flow of time and events is filtered through the way Santiago percieves/experiences it. By virtue of the medium of comics, things can't be in real time when (loosely) text=time. And more time is given to his thoughts than words (this is also why it's clever when his thoughts become words- it breaks that separation in time!) When you remove Santiago's thoughts from the prologue, it becomes clear just how impactful they are to the reading experience, and especially our perception of events, and especially our perception of jamie (more on that later). In the panels people don't have their faces scribbled out, they're actually looking at him pretty normally, if they even care at all.

you automatically take santiago at his word, because why shouldn't you? he's the protagonist! You can see what he's talking about right in front of you/him, right..? But we have to remember that not only are the sequences in santiago's memory unreliable (anybody else know the scott pilgrim 'memory cam' gag?), the things he's experiencing in real time are, too. When the tall girl 'looms' over him, he thinks he's gonna die, that she's gonna kill him, but really, she's just kind of ticked-off. she even shows concern and offers him advice.

Santiago thinking everybody hates him is clearly just through the filter of anxiety. He himself admits how, about the party at the Hanna(h)s, 'or at least, i think they hate me.' he can't be sure what other people think of him, as he himself admits he's bad at reading faces, and so for whatever reason (ill put links here to a couple theories on why when i finish writing them) jumps to assuming they hate him/want to hurt him.

jamie might not be as shitty as we're led to believe.

Based on the above, i have reason to believe jamie isn't actually as awful as santiago thinks he is (or if he is, we don't see the worse stuff he's done) (also im not trying to woobify him he still kinda sucks). Santiago tells us he 'ignores other people’s feelings and takes advantage of their generosity’ and 'does whatever he wants, says whatever he thinks, and never stops to wonder if he's getting in anyone's way. But this is just... Not fully true? At least when it comes to santiago. If anyone, Jamie legitimately seems to care about Santiago and how Santiago feels. He brings him along to a party uninvited, because he cares more about how santiago feels than how the hosts might. When you remove santiago's internal dialogue in the prologue, jamie is constantly reassuring him and hyping him up:

the things santiago cites as jamie's selfishness are all things that are either purely theoretical/DISPROVEN; like him full-on ditching santiago (the girls on the couch later say they just saw him, which means he's still there!),

or have their basis in SANTIAGO'S UNCOMMUNICATIVENESS:

why would jamie know these things bother santiago if santiago doesn't tell him? even when the doorslam occurs, jamie DOES ask if he's okay! and apologises!

it's santiago who minimizes the damage, and THEN jamie acts relieved.

If santiago never voices his anger at jamie, and isn't honest about the impact of his actions, how can he expect him to be able to pick up on it? it's especially ironic given how we know sanitiago is bad at reading others. The other things jamie does that seem 'assholish', too; specifically locking santiago's water bottle in the car and making a huge intro for them, he does because... well, jamie can only concieve of doing things in the way he wants to do them. And he assumes that the things HE would want somebody to do for him if he was in Santiago's place, are what Santiago wants him to do in 'return'. so jamie locking santiago's water bottle in the car 'forces' santiago to drink -> drinking is something jamie likes and gives him a good time -> he wants santiago to have a good time, too. And there's a precedent for Santiago having liked this kind of thing in the past, too!

'You made sure i never missed out on any of the fun'. 'You went out of your way to bring me along.' That's EXACTLY what jamie is doing here, by bringing santiago along uninvited to a party.

Jamie can't concieve of anyone else feeling differently to him about something-- he thinks/assures santiago everyone will like him because HE likes santiago. he just doesn't go about showing he cares in the way Santiago wants (and what would that way even be..? what does santiago want from him?? oo u wanna read my theory on what [redacted] is so bad oooo [for now it's not up yet cause im still editing it, ill update this when i post it]).

anyways thats my first theory/analysis and kind of the basis for all future ones. lmk what u think if you want. yippee.

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hay u can call me 'caves' im an adult man (crazy right) and im making this blog because i want to consolidate my theories for TOL in one place so im not just haphazardly bothering my friendlies with chunks of contextless garbage. i like media analysis and storytelling and stuff. i wouldnt consider myself a 'fan' of the comic per se moreso just entheusiast (rich coming from a guy with a blog dedicated to it, i know). im alsonot the smartest so if i do anything stupid let me know. knowing myself ill probably end up deleting this whole blog in like 2 months sorry so get it while its hot i guess

my theories/analyses (some bleed into each other in some way)

santiago is an unreliable narrator

↳ jamie maybe isnt the worst ever

BPD santiago, AuDHD jamie

what is [redacted]? &.is there a weird gay thing going on ..??

the rest will be added here when i finish writing them out

sum tagz

#official art - art by railroadlion/leo o'connell, the author of TOL.

#mari - stuff i reblog from mari @bicon-crange who is awesome and cool and more active than myself

#doobs - ahhhh ahhh my art. i dont really like posting my fanart because its cringe but every once in a while an idea is too funny not to share

#asks - idk if ill actually get any of these but if u want to prod me like a tiger in a cage to talk about something specific please do. i love being provoked into going off about thinsg i like.

#theory and #analysis - what it says on the tin. what ur probably here for

#this cave echoey as fuck - random 'me's talkign

jamie and santiago also have tags obviously, the comic name has a tag etcetc bla bla if theres any issues send me an askk about it ok.👍

i dont post anything except for related to comic which is really morally reprehesible with the state of everything always i know ok. uou know what youre signing up for coming here. please dont ask me to post about other stuff cause i wont. sorry. love u. also my english is weird when im not trying to sound eloquent. sorry again. [explodes

anyways please be niceys and dont kill me with rocks for being a little bit insaneo i need to think really hard about media i like in order to not die. sorry. also men like santiago dm me rn i need you so ba

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do u want my plauylists :-) ill probably edit em or summat later but for now :-) here

unforches 'i got a melody' by talkshow boy isn't in my region but it's also on jamie's !

ok enough dicking around time to get serious about my TOL playlists

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hey guys im 'caves' and im a normal. person. and welcome to my blogue. for posting about comic Thinking Out Loud.. i hope i can come accross as normal to you all. because, i am. 😁