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hangemwithkindness · 2 years ago

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About Jaime's relationship with Tywin I just want to add that there are some really interesting antiparallels between the two in Jaime I ADWD chapter alone, that I really never saw anyone bringing up in this discussions:

(emphasis mine)

As Jaime Lannister and his escort wound through the rolling hills into the vale, little remained of the fields and farms and orchards that had once surrounded Raventree-only mud and ashes, and here and there the blackened shells of homes and mills. Weeds and thorns and nettles grew in that wasteland, but nothing that could be called a crop. Everywhere Jaime looked he saw his father's hand, even in the bones they sometimes glimpsed beside the road. Most were sheep bones, but there were horses too, and cattle, and now and again a human skull, or a headless skeleton with weeds poking up through its rib cage.

In the beggining of his latest chapter, Jaime was reminded of Tywin as he passed by the ruins of a pillaged village and the last remains of the massacres which Tywin perpetuated.

***

...but the village had a holdfast as strong as any in the riverlands, with thick stone walls twelve feet high, and Jaime knew that was where he'd find the villagers. They hid behind those walls when raiders came, that's why there's still a village here. And they are hiding there again, from me.

He rode Honor up to the holdfast gates.

"You in the holdfast. We mean you no harm. We're king's men."

Faces appeared on the wall above the gate. "They was king's men burned our village," one man called down. "Before that, some other king's men took our sheep. They were for a different king, but that didn't matter none to our sheep. King's men killed Harsley and Ser Ormond, and raped Lacey till she died."

"Not my men," Jaime said. "Will you open your gates?"

Ser Kennos rode close to him. "We could break that gate down easy enough, or put it to the torch."

"While they drop stones on us and feather us with arrows." Jaime shook his head. "It would be a bloody business, and for what? These people have done us no harm. We'll shelter in the houses, but I'll have no stealing. We have our own provisions."

As Jaime encounters another village on his way to Riverrun, in the end of the chapter, he is presented with the same opportunity to enact the exact same horrors, as a true Tywin heir ™ would, to punish peasants for not subjucating to his orders, steal their food and establish rule through campain of fear brutal 'pragmatism'.

even his bannermen, who are desensitised to all this war crimes, suggest attack. Yet Jaime doesnt do that, he doesnt act like Tywin no matter what he is convincing himself he truly is. He notes those villagers have right to fear Jaime's garrison, that these peasants pose them no threat; and he also has common sense to aknowledge that stealing their food would be the same as condemning them to death, only slower one. Instead he orders his men to not even touch their food even though those folks didnt exactly submit to tommen claim. (in their lines they actually cynicaly denounce any respect and subservience they would have for king, his men and any higher order given what they went through under their rule, so not exactly tywin's flavour of people ) . Jaime isnt interested into teaching them a lesson; he sees them as people, not a prop to spread fear, and he wants to leave them alone and contain the damage done to kingdom as much as possible. So Jaime's and Tywin's behaviour is at odds with each other, and the fact that this antiparallel is contained in a single chapter, and that its symetricly positioned (in beggining of chapter, we see tywin's way and in the end we see 'jaime's way') suggest to me that it is a deliberate one, and shows that yes, GRRM doesnt exactly want us to see Jaime as a Tywin 2.0 (in case Genna's emblematic quote or Jaime leaving his Lannister cause, to go risk his life to help save THE LAST REMAINING STARK HEIR AS HE SEES IT, wasnt clear enough) i suggest people consider it before they decide Jaime genuinely meant to do everything from his threat to Edmure, 'because he said he is new Tywin in his head' 🙄

Unjustly, Jaime thought. It was his child he feared for. He knew whose son I am, better than mine own aunt. "The choice was his. His uncle would have made us bleed."

Here is Jaime convincing himself that he is just like Tywin and that its his silly aunt that's wrong, while simultaneously...

"My father had a saying too. Never wound a foe when you can kill him. Dead men don't claim vengeance."

"Their sons do," said Hoster, apologetically.

"Not if you kill the sons as well. Ask the Casterlys about that if you doubt me. Ask Lord and Lady Tarbeck, or the Reynes of Castamere. Ask the Prince of Dragonstone." For an instant, the deep red clouds that crowned the western hills reminded him of Rhaegar's children, all wrapped up in crimson cloaks.

Is that why you killed all the Starks?"

"Not all," said Jaime. "Lord Eddard's daughters live. One has just been wed. The other ... " Brienne, where are you? Have you found her? " ... if the gods are good, she'll forget she was a Stark. She'll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced innkeep, fill his house with children, and never need to fear that some knight might come along to smash their heads against a wall."

"The gods are good," his hostage said, uncertainly.

You go on believing that. Jaime let Honor feel his spurs.

...Here Jaime is comparing Sansa's situation to Elia Martell, whose children were brutaly murdered: their heads have been smashed against a wall by Mountain who was Tywin's man, acting on his orders. Reference is so apparent in text, as Jaime manages to see visage of her dead children seemingly appearing briefly on the sky. So its interesting: Jaime simultaneously wants to convince himself and the world that he is the next Tywin, and he also wishes to protect Sansa from some new Tywin who would condemn her to similar demise as Elia.

And what course of action he takes in the end of his chapter?

What was the saying again... what speaks louder words (in this case also thoughts), or actions?

what is your take on jaime infant trebuchet threat?

spicy anon question omg. here is my read of it:

I take into heavy consideration how it is contextualized by the preceding chapters and Jaime’s development in general. A very important thing about how Jaime changes is that it is not just about morality, knighthood, honor, and the relationship with the self. He is also noticeably developing in how he approaches things + the fact that he more conscious: he is confronting things, he is using his brain (everybody please clap)

“His brother never untied a knot when he could slash it in two with his sword.”

Now because Jaime’s relationship with his morality, his honor, his self etc. has changed so drastically, this situation becomes a knot. A knot that if he would just cut through, would be the opposite of what he wants to achieve here. Jaime has reflected on this a lot since his hand loss.

Let’s see what problem the Blackfish poses:

His resolve is an iron fortress. There is an emphasis that idle threats do not work on him.

What does Jaime learn from this roast session from Based Dilf Brynden? The reputation that he (and his family) had earned for him will not allow for negotiation. Not with someone like Brynden. Jaime has a persona in the collective consciousness. It is something that will not go away, perhaps ever. He has reflected about how he no longer has the means to cut through his problems in a literal sense, and cutting through this knot in a less literal sense would lead to bloodshed and the breaking of vows. We can see how and why he now has to resort to new approaches, something he has learned previously in ASoS:

Tyrion would find a way. Let us use the cards he have been dealt. Especially the reputation that is used against us (peak Tyrion move).

Also, what do the people around him suggest:

“Execute Edmure. Show that our threats are not idle”

Edmure is the key, Jaime realizes, but not like that. What does Jaime do? He does not kill Edmure to show his threats have legitimacy to Brynden (part of it is the logical conclusion he makes about how that would strengthen his resolve, BUT he also does not go with a baby trebuchet threat to Brynden. I do not think Brynden is coldhearted enough to take that threat for granted, especially if he does not view it as an idle one. But the risk of the bluff being called is more present with Bryden, and then Jaime loses all credibility and chances to avoid bloodshed. There is a reason George wrote this how it is. I think we are supposed to scrutinize what exactly Jaime is saying, and to deliberately who.) No, he goes to Edmure.

He says this aloud. This is not a thought. This is not something he is reflecting upon based on everything that has been going on in the past chapters. This is a deliberate performance people are watching, specifically Edmure is watching.

Also, let us not talk about Jaime and idle threats/bluffs (actually I will):

"No? Then surely it was to have your pleasure of me? It's said that widows grow weary of their empty beds. We of the Kingsguard vow never to wed, but I suppose I could still service you if that's what you need. Pour us some of that wine and slip out of that gown and we'll see if I'm up to it." Catelyn stared down at him in revulsion. Was there ever a man as beautiful or as vile as this one.

Please, if Cat took him up on his bluff here he would start sobbing and crying at the mere prospect of having sex with anyone other than Cersei. He starts overdosing on copium the moment he gazes at another woman

Jaime grabbed the boy with his good hand and yanked him around. "I am the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, you arrogant pup. Your commander, so long as you wear that white cloak. Now sheathe your bloody sword, or I'll take it from you and shove it up some place even Renly never found."

Other than considering the relationship of these two, Jaime uses words like he uses swords. He aims to cut. He is perceptive of the weaknesses of others (Brienne: gender, lady, knight, & looks, Cat: Jon, Loras: Renly), he seeks it out and uses it to get under their skin, or to achieve something. He has a weakness he wears on his sleeve (kingslayer), he feels the need to find that thing in everyone else, so he is not as vulnerable. He wants to stop the conflict thats brewing here. This threat is exaggerated and deliberately presses Loras’s buttons. Not something he would actually go through with lol.

In fact, this bitch makes threats he does not follow up for shit in his OWN MIND:

Thankfully, Jaime still had his oar. One good swing when she comes paddling up and I'll be free of her. Instead he found himself stretching the oar out over the water. Brienne grabbed hold, and Jaime pulled her in.

This is self explanatory. Find the use of the phrase “he found himself” specifically so funny 😭 it is like he refuses to even face that he made a choice here.

Jaime's rage kept him walking. The linen that covered the stump was grey and stinking with pus. His phantom fingers screamed with every step. I am stronger than they know, he told himself. I am still a Lannister. I am still a knight of the Kingsguard. He would reach Harrenhal, and then King's Landing. He would live. And I will pay this debt with interest.

"so Ser said to give him roast goat. The Qohorik didn't have much meat on him, though. Ser took his hands and feet first, then his arms and legs.. but Ser, he said to see that all the captives had a taste. And Hoat too, his own self. That whoreson 'ud slobber when we fed him, and the grease'd run down into that skinny beard o' his. Father, Jaime thought, your dogs have both gone mad. He found himself remembering tales he had first heard as a child at Casterly Rock, of mad Lady Lothston who bathed in tubs of blood and presided over feasts of human flesh within these very walls. Somehow revenge had lost its savor. "Take this and throw it in the lake." Jaime tossed Hoat's head to Peck, and turned to address the garrison.

Other than the obvious “damn this is not what u promised u’d do, clown” of him not even really pursuing revenge against Hoat once he is back, Jaime seems to be genuinely uncomfortable with the unnecessary acts of cruelty that had actually occurred.

Jaime could feel his phantom fingers itching at the sight of him. fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy for all I know … He had tried to speak with Lancel more times than he could count, but never found him alone.

"Did you force her?" "No! I loved her. I wanted to protect her." You wanted to be me. His phantom fingers itched.

His phantom fingers are itching for violence, but we all know how that interaction goes. Also notice the motif: it is his phantom fingers that are itching for it. It is his old self. But that self is a phantom now.

He never said he meant to kill our father. If he had, I would have stopped him. Then I would be the kinslayer, not him.

He had commanded Ser Addam Marbrand to search the Street of Silk. "Look under every bed, you know how fond my brother is of brothels." The gold cloaks would find more of interest beneath the whores' skirts than beneath their beds. He wondered how many bastard children would be born of the pointless search.

This is a debatable one ig, but I do not think either of the brothers are actually prepared to kill each other. He certainly does not seem too eager to actually find Tyrion. I do not think it is solely rooted in just giving up, he knowingly and actively sent search parties to do things he knows is a waste, rather than using his resources well.

Also:

It was queer, but he felt no grief. Where are my tears? Where is my rage? Jaime Lannister had never lacked for rage. "Father," he told the corpse, "it was you who told me that tears were a mark of weakness in a man, so you cannot expect that I should cry for you."

“I’m sorry for your loss.” “I had a new hand made, of gold.” He showed her. “Very nice. Will they make you a gold father too?” Lady Genna's voice was sharp. “Tywin was the loss I meant.”

Let us not kid ourselves about which family member Jaime actually feels grief for, and what could potentially happen if it comes down to choosing between those two.

“Must you make me say the words.” etc. is also an interesting line. He seems to have conflict with even getting these words out, because the people that are present, who he seemed to have built a relationship with, and presented the side of himself that is not just “Kingslayer, son of Tywin”. The part of this speech that I am showing here are Tywin’s words coming from his mouth. Genna pointed out something: (I do wanna say that there are nuances here, I also do not think this means Tyrion is some final villain and as horrible and cruel as Tywin) Jaime is not Tywin’s “son”. The emulation he does is supposed to be inauthentic. Again, Brynden does not care for threats, but Edmure does. Everything is set up by Jaime in this interaction seems to rely on this. If Edmure does not give in, the knot remains. Furthermore, I do not see the point of Jaime doing child trebucheting on top of breaking his vow and following up on what he told Brynden that he would do. What would be the point? Again, Jaime is not someone like Tywin. He is not about crazy acts of cruelty to overcompensate for a lack of respect. He never needed that, his insecurity never stemmed from people not fearing him, it stems from people perceiving him as a monster with shit for honor. Him comparing himself to Tywin here never felt like: “I really showed it to Genna, I am actually Tywin” to me, it was more a somber observation about this specific insecurity (ntm how Jaime views Tywin: “My father is dead as well” “May the Father judge him justly.” Now, there's an awful prospect.) I still put a lot more weight to Genna’s words, because Jaime is more caught up in “these threats and methods are not chivalric”, not “they underestimate my strength.” (Lady Genna suggested that a few of the men might be put to the question. He refused. “I gave Edmure my word that if he yielded, the garrison could leave unharmed.”“That was chivalrous of you,” his aunt said, "but it's strength that's needed here, not chivalry." Ask Edmure how chivalrous I am, thought Jaime. Ask him about the trebuchet)

Another big thing that is informative: Jaime’s guilt over Rhaegar’s children and that he did not protect them from his own father (see his fever dream in ASoS). If he is someone that feels guilt over that in his subconscious post-hand loss, would he really be capable of going through with this threat now?

I think a more substantive criticism of Jaime is that he would supposedly forsake his vow for Cat in favor of the vow sworn to his king if he is truly completely cornered. (If the Blackfish would not listen, he would have no choice but to break the vow he'd made to Catelyn Stark. The vow he'd sworn his king came first.) This is not what your #kingslaying taught us my guy. Ofc, with Jaime and his narration is always a bit of a gamble: not a moment later he is ready to say fuck it and die in trial by combat to escape the knot (return of the passive suicidal ideation), even saying that if he loses they lift the siege (it is out of his control once he dies so I suppose that lets him escape the vow? still lmao)

It is also his old version seeping through. The one that does not want to face dilemmas. The one that is willing to escape them even if that means death. Again, dying for him is easy, living with choices to make is hard.

“As I was fucking her, Cersei cried, 'I want.' I thought that she meant me, but it was the Stark girl that she wanted, maimed or dead.” The things I do for love. “It was only by chance that Stark's own men found the girl before me. If I had come on her first . . .” The pockmarks on Ser Ilyn's face were black holes in the torchlight, as dark as Jaime's soul.

Here is another thing to note, though. Jaime is also someone who, at some point of his life, was ready to do horrible things to an innocent child, with no “justification” like with Bran. This is at a point where he disconnected completely from his morality, and allowed his disillusionment to enable his behavior. He is aware of this. He starts reflecting on this, especially in relation to his evaluation of his relationship with Cersei. That is why he confesses to Ilyn (a metaphor for the ghost of his past self). This is something that makes his soul dark, as pointed out by the narration. The fact that he seems to acknowledge and reflects on this already speaks of change. That Jaime is not the Jaime that we are dealing with now. Jaime is no longer on autopilot. Jaime is trying to confront things. Jaime is changing. His moral compass is no longer locked away in his deep subconscious. The question now is whether that moral compass will win over all of his struggles with perception, his internal conflicts, and the ghosts of his past.

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hangemwithkindness · 2 years ago

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JAIME IN THE RIVERLANDS: Exploring the 'Limits of Redemption'

Or: I HATE YOUR JAIME META AND HERE'S WHY

[Note: So this long fucking post is actually only the intro to what is (I think) a three/four part essay; the other parts are in editing stages at the moment but I figured if I don't post the first part now it'll be a WIP forever. Hopefully the rest will follow relatively soon as I'm literally sitting around with covid rn doing approx. nothing else but whatever watch this space I guess. anyway]

“I want there to be a possibility of redemption for us, because we all do terrible things. We should be able to be forgiven. Because if there is no possibility of redemption, what’s the answer then?” George R. R. Martin (!!!)

‘Redemption’ is broadly considered to be the most significant theme in Jaime Lannister’s narrative, with most arguing that the conclusion of his story must reach one verdict or another in terms of whether he has achieved it. For those that believe he won’t, Jaime’s chapters in AFFC and ADWD are most commonly used as evidence.

However, Jaime’s Riverlands arc (which I will here distinguish as beginning in Jaime III AFFC, and ending in Jaime I ADWD) is one I think is too often broken down and compartmentalised, with few takes managing to consider it holistically. Scenes are often isolated from their context and from the preceding and succeeding chapters, with fans nonetheless reaching their verdict on Jaime’s broader story based on this limited analysis. So the arguments go, here’s Jaime doing bad things and fighting for the wrong side after all he went through in ASOS: after choosing to change, and then failing to do so. If Jaime truly wanted redemption, why is he still fighting for the Lannister regime? Why are all his efforts for good so pitifully small-scale?

Here I want to consider this arc not just through isolated scenes, but within the broader narrative of Jaime’s story. For, as with everything else, GRRM is rarely interested in presenting a straightforward story of its type: Jaime’s struggle for redemption in the Riverlands is treated with as much complexity as other arcs in the story, such as Dany’s governance in Meereen, or Jon’s on the Wall. Characters are often trapped by circumstance, forced to compromise or made to contradict their own ideals in an effort to achieve their goals. The result can be ugliness and strife where a reader expects catharsis. In a series with two volumes to go, this is not to say that catharsis won’t come for Jaime’s story, but its delayed arrival has seen fans frequently contrast it with another POV: Theon’s.

Theon is another character for whom redemption is a guiding theme, though his is often favoured above Jaime’s owing to the more straightforward catharsis it affords. When we last see Theon in ADWD, he has fought sizable demons (both internal and otherwise) to escape Winterfell and save Jeyne Poole in the process. From here, a reader anticipates Theon will continue to fight for the right causes, and carve out a new identity separate from that as Balon’s heir, or Ned Stark’s hostage. No reader expects that Theon will turn around in TWOW to return to his old ways, because he has no cause to look back: the work is done, his old trappings gone, and the only direction left to him is forwards into something new.

Theon’s arc begins slightly ahead of Jaime’s, kicking off in the second volume where Jaime’s gathers pace in the third, but even accounting for this variance in pacing, the differences between their two redemption stories are notable. Theon begins the series as a relatively isolated character, estranged from his family and superimposed into one where the patriarch might take his head at any moment. For the most part, it doesn’t seem as though anyone even likes Theon all that much, apart from the mother he has largely forgotten about. It’s unsurprising, then, that over the course of several conflicts in ACOK we see Theon’s ties and allies diminished to practically nothing: he’s abandoned by his own house, becomes an enemy of the Starks, and is kept hostage by the Boltons who view him as a useful piece of dirt.

Theon is ultimately removed from grander disputes besides as a pawn, too afraid to claim his autonomy for fears of painful consequences from Ramsay. He remembers his wrongs, but feels helpless to atone for them, left instead to ruminate in Winterfell. Theon’s redemption is then pursued through courage and reclamation of identity: a growing irrelevance to the new powers of the plot, his story is to reclaim his name and autonomy in the background, acting not for any house or name, but on his own renewed instincts for right and wrong. No family or political cause is left to rely on him, and so Theon ironically has the freedom to act on a purely individual basis, fighting instead for the single person who does need him now: Jeyne Poole. His act of heroism at the end of ADWD carves a checkpoint viewed by most readers as a decisive move towards redemption.

Jaime’s arc and Theon’s have more in common whilst Jaime is imprisoned by the Bloody Mummers in ASOS, where he too relies largely on instincts and courage, and develops the desire to change through tormented self-reflection. But the crucial difference is the scope each are afforded from here on. As discussed, Theon, on point of reflection, is essentially alone. The only choices he can make are those he makes for himself, and indeed he has nothing to lose but his life, for even his name has been stripped from him.

This is not so in Jaime’s case. Far from Theon’s reduced existence, halfway through ASOS Jaime has returned to all his old trappings, as well as new positions of power he never asked for. He’s now in a position to make choices that were never his before, whether they concern the makeup of the Kingsguard or the safety of his house, and each choice has a domino effect that can ripple throughout the realm. Indeed, rather than estranged from his family, Jaime is inserted directly into the midst of their affairs - at precisely the time when the threat to their house proves existential. This is not a character who can look only to his own personal hopes, ambitions and wellbeing for guidance - rather, this is someone in a prime seat of governance. Ironically, this sees Jaime’s personal autonomy greatly diminished as a result.

Not all of this is new, of course. Jaime has been born with stakes in these institutions - or acquired them at 15, in the case of the Kingsguard. The fate of House Lannister has always mattered to Jaime because the Lannisters are his own family, and owing to the precarious position Tywin has left them in, that same family are now in mortal danger. Plenty of words are shed amongst the Lannisters on the importance of maintaining Tywin’s legacy in keeping the security of their House, and unfortunately, Jaime has inherited this legacy at precisely the time he has hoped to escape it. Though he emerges from ASOS with personal ambitions to rescue Sansa, become a knight like Brienne, reclaim his fatherhood to his children and restore peace in the realm, what he wants has to be balanced alongside the security of the Lannisters collectively, and the delicate regency that sustains them.

As Ned tells Cersei as early as AGOT, there is no safe escape for House Lannister now: Robert would’ve hounded them to the ends of the world if he knew the truth, and certainly by AFFC both highborn and smallfolk alike long for their downfall. It is here that Jaime finds himself upon his return to King’s Landing. So from ASOS onwards, we see Jaime attempting to continue the arc he began with Brienne, and struggling to do so within the confines of his new elevated roles, risking undermining his family even as they undermine him at every turn. What deeds he does manage, such as instigating rescues for both Tyrion and Sansa, need to be done covertly, whilst everything he does in the public sphere is subject to Cersei’s whims.

By Jaime III AFFC, Cersei declares that Jaime’s role now is to restore peace in the Riverlands (that is, to quash the Tullys), and Jaime, reluctantly, gathers his men and goes. So begins a balancing act between his private ambition and public persona, where he knows the slightest misstep might be the downfall of his family.

(Of course, the grim truth is that the fate of House Lannister was sealed by Tywin long ago.)

JAIME AND THE LANNISTER LEGACY

As mentioned, readers often simplify all this to argue that Jaime is simply fighting for ‘the Lannister regime’ in AFFC; that he is flying the colours for his family because that’s the easier thing to do than pursue redemption and the greater good. I’d disagree.

Firstly, we should note that Jaime has always had a healthy disregard for Lannister rhetoric and his father’s view of the world. This is not to say Jaime is not aware of the power his name holds, and that like his brother Tyrion, he won’t use it occasionally as a crutch, performance or excuse:

"White is for Starks. I'll drink red like a good Lannister." [JAIME V, ASOS]

"If you know me, Urswyck, you know you'll have your reward. A Lannister always pays his debts.” [JAIME III, ASOS]

He was a Lannister of Casterly Rock, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard; no sellsword would make him scream. [JAIME III, ASOS]

That would show the realm that the Lannisters are above their laws, like gods and Targaryens. [JAIME III, ASOS]

“The Father Above has more time than I do. Do you know who I am?" [JAIME IV, AFFC]

And to say the least, Jaime is no stranger to a gold plate armour. Simply put, this is a character quite capable of talking the talk and walking the walk when it suits him, but his broader POV shows one far more sceptical than Tywin or Cersei.

To start with, Jaime actually shirked his lead role in House Lannister at fifteen, giving up Casterly Rock and the propagation of his house for the promise of his sister’s love. He declines Tywin’s offer to restore him to this position in ASOS (even despite his disillusionment with Cersei) and immediately sets about undermining both his father and sister by rescuing Tyrion and Sansa. Jaime has also from a young age rejected Tywin’s diatribes on his brother, spending his life regretting the one instance he aligned himself to them (see: Tysha). As a young Kingsguard he does not advocate allowing Tywin into the city, even knowing his father would win decisively, does not join his father at the last minute either - and in fact did not even raise Tywin as King given ample opportunity:

"Shall I proclaim a new king as well?" Crakehall asked, and Jaime read the question plain: Shall it be your father [...]?”

[...]"Proclaim who you bloody well like," he told Crakehall. Then he climbed the Iron Throne and seated himself with his sword across his knees, to see who would come to claim the kingdom. [JAIME II, ASOS]

At this crucial moment, Jaime adopts a neutral stance, leaving the politicking to other men - and this is a stance that comes to define him up to AGOT: given all he has seen, Jaime no longer has faith in the rights of Kings nor the honour of good men, and so retreats inward where the only rules are his own. Ultimately Jaime’s natural inclination is to stand as an individual: for his own values, rather than as a representative for his house or any institution.

And his general disdain for his father’s doings and teachings is seen everywhere in his POV - or occasionally, by omission. Whilst Cersei and even Tyrion frequently reflect on Tywin’s methodry and lessons, Jaime, the key subject of those lessons, seldom considers them - except with resentment or reluctance:

"Father," he told the corpse, "it was you who told me that tears were a mark of weakness in a man, so you cannot expect that I should cry for you." [JAIME I, AFFC]

Indeed, in much of AFFC we see Jaime wandering the Riverlands, disturbed by the ruins his father’s campaigns have left behind. This is a character reiterated throughout his POV as one who runs on passion: he entered the war for Cersei and Tyrion, albeit recklessly and in the midst of a conflict of his own making. Meanwhile, Tywin’s work is cold-blooded, calculated and brutal, and reminds Jaime of his enemies rather than his allies.

In fact, the only aspect of House Lannister that Jaime seems especially concerned with seem to be his loved ones within it. In the beginning this appears largely limited to Cersei and Tyrion, the two he asks after when seeking news from Catelyn. News of a distant uncle and his losses at war are dismissed out of hand, and Tywin himself is asked after as essentially an afterthought:

"It's Cersei and Tyrion who concern me. As well as my lord father." [CATELYN VII, ACOK]

Later, of course, we encounter family like Genna and Daven representing Jaime's broader emotional stakes within his house, and his growing cares for his children make him more intent on its survival. But his remote affection (or entire lack of it) for his own father never seems to waver.

When Tywin does die, we see Jaime holding vigil beside his corpse out of a sense of obligation as Tywin’s son, but after spending much of it scowling at Tywin’s corpse and thinking ill of him, he abandons the vigil early to chase after a distraught Tommen. In the same scene, we even see Jaime attempting to counsel his son differently to how his father did him: where Tywin taught Jaime a man does not cry and should never show weakness, Jaime does not ridicule his son’s distress (as Cersei notably does), but tries to offer him support (albeit with only a sad coping mechanism of his own):

"A man can bear most anything, if he must," Jaime told his son. I have smelled a man roasting, as King Aerys cooked him in his own armour. "The world is full of horrors, Tommen. You can fight them, or laugh at them, or look without seeing . . . go away inside." [JAIME I, AFFC]

In short, Jaime has no apparent interest in upholding his father’s teachings or values, and all signs point to a man who hopes to raise his son differently, to undo cycles of tyranny, and to begin anew. This is all sadly compounded by the inheritance Tywin has left behind.

TYWIN'S LEGACY

Jaime’s nobler intentions unfortunately have little place for manoeuvre in the preservation of House Lannister. In fact, the family are essentially left with two options: they can sustain the 'Lannister regime', or they can vanish completely - and the latter isn’t altogether realistic for the most famous family in Westeros, in a narrative that always strives to be.

So for the Lannisters to maintain their security, they are left with largely the former - maintaining the outward appearance of power that Tywin has fostered for his house. The trouble is that maintaining that appearance, when it was previously sustained by the severity of the actions one man was willing to take.

Since he rose to the head of his family, Tywin has ruled by fear: he has made enemies of powerful people, false friends of others, and they only cower because of the ultimate threat that Tywin has showed more than once that he can act upon - given cause, he will demolish a house completely. Tywin’s method essentially runs opposite to his father’s: where Tytos offered lenience, Tywin determines to offer none: you are with him, or you are nothing.

Whilst this has been effective in removing smaller targets such as the Reynes and Tarbecks, it has done outsized damage in ruining the good faith and trust that others might have in House Lannister: certainly a Lannister will pay his debts, but what it takes to accrue one is the fear that Tywin rules with.

Tywin’s demolition method was attempted on House Stark in ASOS, and by AFFC, it may seem to have been successful on the surface level. The northern forces are in pieces, the Lannisters are allied to the Tyrells, and there is a new Lannister king on the throne. The threats from overseas seem vague and obscure, and Tommen holds tomorrow.

But of course, this is not actually the case. Sansa is not dead, nor Arya, nor Bran and Rickon. They’ve survived through their parents’ memory and teachings, and their father’s vassals are already conspiring the Starks’ return to the north. It goes without saying that the power of Winterfell is sustained through security and loyalty, not fear, and that fear is infinitely more fragile, with a great deal more work required in sustaining it.

Of course, Tywin's reasons for ruling with fear are, despite his pretences, rooted in his own feelings of inadequacy rather than political practicality: this is a man who has grown up feeling humiliated and undermined by his own father, and is desperate to regain the power and respect he believes he's entitled to - by any means necessary. Still, such is the state of the legacy he leaves behind for his own son: an unsustainable campaign of fear, with no-one left to uphold it:

Tywin was big even when he was little." She gave a sigh. "Who will protect us now?"

Jaime kissed her cheek. "He left a son."

"Aye, he did. That is what I fear the most, in truth."

That was a queer remark. "Why should you fear?"

"Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak . . . but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you." [JAIME V, AFFC]

Ironically, what is here identified by Genna as a weakness of Jaime’s is really a weakness of Tywin’s. He has an heir who might have carried the torch forward for House Lannister, might just have managed to build enough bridges for whichever Lannister came next… but Tywin’s view of the world is such that that heir is an abused, embittered man more interested in their downfall. The force that might have once sustained them will now be turned against them as Tyrion joins with Daenerys Targaryen - and regardless, whatever progress and good faith Tyrion fostered for House Lannister in ACOK was quickly undone by Tywin in ASOS with the Red Wedding.

So what’s left is only a hopeless, toxic mess: House Lannister has no true friends and no true allies. They have only a host of enemies, small and large, who desire the utter demolition of a house that sought the same of others. And the man left to carry the torch is one without conviction in anything it stands for.

Nonetheless, the torch still rests with Jaime, with the stakes high as they’ve ever been for he and his loved ones. In AFFC, GRRM shows Jaime attempting a performance as Tywin’s heir, all whilst giving away vital ground, leading without conviction and resenting his role. By the end of ADWD, Jaime will have all but abandoned the Lannister cause for the pursuit of redemption, and the collapse of his house will enter overdrive.

[at some point - PART TWO: Bluffs, Bargaining & Baby Trebuchets]

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hangemwithkindness · 2 years ago

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tumblr discourse has truly taken away the right to subjective opinions and its exhausting

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hangemwithkindness · 2 years ago

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#damn

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hangemwithkindness · 2 years ago

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FRIENDS (4.22) The One with the Worst Best Man Ever

#f.r.i.e.n.d.s #phoebe buffay #common phoebe W #monica geller #rachel green

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hangemwithkindness · 2 years ago

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Nokia 3310

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hangemwithkindness · 2 years ago

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worst thing is that show apparently didnt have time to explore even shreds of Jaime's supposed self-loathing and feelings over Brienne but it did have time for _this. Everything not related to Cersei had to be deliberatily pushed into obscurity and there were still people GoT apologist who dont really care about his character except for wanting to make his badly written nihilistic downfall seem more palatable trying to read all sorts of humanity and conflicted emotions into his character when GoT basicaly just went: No lmao he just a twincest dude

every few months I remember when GOT did the euron vs jaime seaside wrestling match for cersei’s honour and i

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hangemwithkindness · 2 years ago

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Happiness can be found even in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.

HARRY POTTER AND THE PRISONER OF AZKABAN dir. Alfonso Cuarón | released June 4, 2004 Cinematography by Michael Seresin

#prisoner of azkaban #nothing comes close to this

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hangemwithkindness · 3 years ago

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Its funny when people say he burned Cersei's letter in a fit of rage when really, he burned it in cold soberness. I mean, the mere fact that Jaime actualy wakes up from a dream where he finaly started to face his past regrets in the incarnation of his mother /whom he couldnt clearly remember and envision in his head up until the moment he makes first definitive moves to estrange himself from Cersei/ instead of a dream where he frustrates over Cersei's infidelity in any way, is clearly a choice on the authors part. As is the fact that Jaime is among the first POV characters to face the snow and the arrival of winter: Nothing about the atmosphere or emotional context indicates raging fury; - instead Jaime's feelings towards Cersei are changing and cooling just as the weather is too.

Its also sad how here we have up-to-a-page long dream sequence that preceeds major moment in jaime's emotional journey; interwined with psychological insights and symbolism about Jaime's insecurities and past regrets that he cant conciously note but really end up affecting his desicionmaking anyways, (similarly as a weirwood dream), dream where he finaly has one hand, not two (something thats a deliberate narrative callback to his previous dreams, and obviously distinguishes this dream as an important one), were he faces someone whos memory he has been repressing for so long, who gives him a wake up call on how much of his own life he wasted, ... and instead... fandom ends up mostly fixated on another one where jaime smashes his sister's teeth (you know, the one where he had 2 hands, the one that we dont even experience alongside with Jaime as a short trip to his subconciousness but only learn based on his 3 sentences plain description afterwards).

If I wanted to base my predictions and opinions about Jaime on dreams, I'd say his dream with Johanna is much more representative and important than the other, in setting the emotional context for how and why Jaime refused Cersei's plea for help in his final affc chapter, but it mostly gets ignored in general discussions about character, and for some reason people only ever remember and bring up the shorter one from 2 chapters ago. :/

Why can't people accept the possibility of Jaime's "redemption"? One word: Valonqar

As ever I don't want to get into the valonqar debate because I find it impossible to navigate a conversation over a scene that hasn't happened, and fwiw, isn't guaranteed to happen at all. I can accept that it's a possibility, but how exactly we should discuss the event is going to have to wait till after the fact, because we have absolutely no information to go off of at the moment.

All I'll say is I disagree with everyone who thinks Jaime is going to kill Cersei in some fit of jealous rage because:

He had the opportunity to go back to KL, but proved disinterested in her fate and actually wandered off the grid, meaning word of her fate can't even reach him

He doesn't even have it in him to get mad at Lancel, the guy (or one of them) that she cheated with

When Ilyn Payne suggests that he kill Cersei, he refuses using Tommen as a reason (and resolves instead that the best thing for now is just getting Tommen away from Cersei). And I just don't think he truly believes that Cersei should properly, karmically suffer for cheating on him. In his anger, you can see him expressing some pretty vile ideas of vengeance, but when he's actually being honest with himself, it's just half-hearted musings that go 'idk what I'm going to do with myself and our relationship when I get back to KL'. He just puts it off and puts it off and then goes off with Brienne instead. And from there on there will be plenty else going on in his story that will surely overshadow that shit w the Kettleblacks.

What all this would leave any valonqar eventuality looking like, I have no idea. I don't know if it's true Jaime's the valonqar, I don't know how he'd do it or what his reason would be, I don't know what GRRM would be trying to say with the scene, I don't know what I'll end up feeling, etc etc. Let's talk about it when we come to it because I'm sure there will be a lot to say, and I absolutely get the concerns about portraying such a scene at all. But I don't think it should overshadow the entire discussion of what Jaime's story is about.

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hangemwithkindness · 3 years ago

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It's pretty telling that in ADWD Jaime doesnt spend time thinking Cersei is an evil whore who deserves the worst punishment and how karmic the whole situation with high sparrow is, and instead of getting off on these violent fantasies ... he just doesnt, as there is 0 complacency in his PoV about Cersei's imprisonment While he definitely hasn't stopped feeling bitter about the whole cheating affair, he mostly tries not to think much about Cersei's current state likely bc it probably makes him uncomfortable. Granted, he does think Cersei is guilty of the accusations but that only in pragmatic sense (as in he cant do anything to help her), bc Jaime is trying to rationalise his desicion not to go help her. Which brings me to the question: why would Jaime ever need to do that if he was so owerwhelmed by his hatred and homicidal rage towards her as its generaly speculated? It just seems not only redundant but contradictory as well with those interpretations, imo.

the major thing that concerns me is his 'kettlebacks moonboy' mantra bc it just looks like GRRM might be building towards something ominous lurking inside Jaime's mind waiting to wrap up his story in the ugliest way possible, as he cant let go of his obssesion with Cersei's cheating.

But it could also be psychological prop that Jaime uses to allow himself to feel disentangled enough from Cersei to be able to kill her & NOT the reason behind the act. See how he invokes this mantra in his ADWD passage:

He would have to face her, he supposed. Assuming the High Septon had not put her to death by the time he got back to the city. "Come at once," she had written, in the letter he'd had Peck burn at Riverrun. "Help me. Save me. I need you now as I have never needed you before. I love you. I love you. I love you. Come at once." Her need was real enough, Jaime did not doubt. As for the rest … she's been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy for all I know … Even if he had gone back, he could not hope to save her. She was guilty of every treason laid against her, and he was short a sword hand.

specificaly to convince himself that he is done with her for good and doesnt concern himself with her fate at all yet immediately afterwards he procceeds to use even more excuses and justifications. This implies to me that there is some level of insecurity in Jaime's mind that he desperately tries to shove back but regardless, if those thoughts arent strong enough to prevent him from feeling insecure about merely stepping aside, then how can they be enough of a motivator for Jaime to kill Cersei? Furious revenge obssesed Jaime wouldnt have similar thought procceses at all, and wouldnt care either way about excusing himself bc simple !Cersei is a whore!! would be enough which evidently isnt the case with actual character.

Why can't people accept the possibility of Jaime's "redemption"? One word: Valonqar

All I'll say is I disagree with everyone who thinks Jaime is going to kill Cersei in some fit of jealous rage because:

He had the opportunity to go back to KL, but proved disinterested in her fate and actually wandered off the grid, meaning word of her fate can't even reach him

He doesn't even have it in him to get mad at Lancel, the guy (or one of them) that she cheated with

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hangemwithkindness · 3 years ago

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Keep reading

#woah this is perfect #jaime lannister #the jaime discourse

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hangemwithkindness · 3 years ago

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Unpopular opinion, but I've seen bunch of people on tumblr constantly talking about 'omnipresent misogyny in the fandom and how female characters are judged much harshly than their male counterparts' And while that might be true for locals, general fandom, reddit etc. it absolutely isnt so for tumblr. If anything it is the opposite and C*rsei and Jaime are the prime example of that.

The fact that C*rsei is a female, and Jaime a male character, and generaly seen as more privileged (which isnt untrue) is the reason why question of -whether Jaime is better and more redeemable person than Cers*i - is even debatable in the first place in many corners of the fandom. Its the reason why there is so much inclination to gloss over C*rsei's abuse and draw 'mutualy abusive' argument. It's the reason why an ending where one partner disregards any hope for the place in the future or redemption & returns to another, (who treatened to murder him and sent assassins after him while only softening to him when she was literary cornered to death) to die alongside her with *sappy music in the back* is getting excused and celebrated instead of being universaly reviled as a romantisation of toxic relationships which it blatantly is.

Its the reason why Jaime having issue with his partner's infidelity is labeled as mysogynistic. Can someone honestly tell me that female character who was using degrading names at the expense of the male partner who cheated on her and slaped her would be condemned here on the same level as it's in this case? More like, any mention of critisism would get you instantly labeled as sexist (like in most cases about lanntwins if genders were reversed).

Heck I say this as someone who actualy likes C*rsei, but her gender is the basic reason why she has so much stans on here in the first place. For many, she represents an archetype of an oppressed person they want to relate, a commentary on how much can structural gender discrimination affect and ruin a person. And while GRRM partly wants to explore just that and get readers to even empathise with her at times; he doesnt want them to fully absorb themselves in her POV, bc she is fundamentaly horrible person. And a lot of people either cant cope or forgive GRRM for not writing her the way they want [so its essentialy basic fan entitlement mixed with enough woke buzzwords to sound as a compeling grievance..whoops..]. Strip her of her gendered excuse and the person who lies, cheats, is physicaly abusive, has groomed a minor and ordered many people to get maimed and tortured, abuses their kids would have as much stans here as Robert, or Joffrey, or Viserys. Like dont get me wrong she is a tragic character, she herself suffered abuse and isnt entirely undeserving of sympathy but the way a lot of people see her *not being given a sword when she was a child* as a borderline excuse that precludes her from having basic decency like not pushing your childhood friend down the well or just sympathising on some level with people who go trough the same strugles as she did (like Sansa or Margaery) instead of yk seting them up for torture in gleefulness is just... The fact that Jaime tries to shield and protect people that in many ways represent his younger self (Brienne and Loras) in direct opposition to his sister maybe speaks of some more innate differences in nature that transcend gender barriers. dunno... could it be... I get it - seeing a, generaly speaking, more socialy privileged character being given redemption arc while C*rsei gets stuck with Evil Queen narrative isnt the most 'progressive satisfying' story there is, but neither are Jaime and C*rsei only characters in the story. We have another set of siblings where female one is given a hero jorney while male one dies in misery as a petty, power hungry, villanious loser. Is GRRM sexist for writing that plot too then? Jaime also gets fairly woobified I concede that, but saying that Jaime is more redeemable than C*rsei isnt sexist, denying it is. You dont have to like that storyline, you can root for its end and for Jaime to f*mic*de his way out of narrative all you want, to get some semblance of moral equality between the two[even though even then it wouldnt be true] but have at least as much intelectual honestly to accept basic facts there are. thats all

Jaime is a better person than Cersei. That is beyond dispute. Jaime has done good and bad things. Cersei has done bad things. Jaime is trying to find a way to do better. Cersei wants to screw everyone over. If Jaime's efforts means he has a chance for happiness while Cersei's unrelenting cruelty means her doom it is not sexism. It is the person putting in the effort to do better having a chance the person doing worse won't.

#anti cersei lannister #the fact that she is in my top 3 characters #and i have to use this tag ... splendid #jaime lannister

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