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yenneferofriviaa · 2 years ago

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Hi have u seen sjm's interview about tamlin being abusive (*cough* but she still thirsting for rhysand) i honestly feel scared because some stans might bully other people who likes tamlin :"(((..

Hi anon!

I did not watch the interview, but I've seen a few recaps. And I mean. I've acknowledged all across my fics that Tamlin was abusive, and I don't know why Feysand shippers seem to think it's a big deal. We all KNOW. That's why my shipping efforts focus on ACOTAR itself or alternate timelines where ACOMAF didn't happen.

But yeah, even though I'm not a Tamlin stan I hope Feysand shippers don't start bullying people for stanning him. The big problem I and a lot of others have with Sarah's writing is the pure hypocrisy. If Tamlin in ACOMAF is abusive (and he is) then so is Rhysand! Let's recap, shall we?

Tamlin bites Feyre on the neck on Calanmai.

Meanwhile, Rhysand spent months groping Feyre and having her lap dance on him in revealing clothing. (it's also worth noting that lap dances are a form of sex work...)

Tamlin accidentally loses control of his magic when upset with Feyre-physical abuse. (Though as a victim of physical abuse myself, I have real ISSUES with how this is written as accidental, which kind of defeats the point of physical abuse but alas)

Meanwhile, Rhysand purposely twists a bone in Feyre arm, torturing her into doing what he wants. (Additionally, Feyre also loses control of her emotions in an emotionally charged moment at the High Lord's meeting when Beron is (rightfully) questioning Rhysand, burning him and ***accidentally*** burning Lady Vanserra. The fandom really needs to decide if magical outbursts when upset, accidentally hurting others nearby, are always abusive or if it's only abusive when Tamlin does it)

Tamlin keeps the truth from Feyre about the full extent of her powers and about the level of danger she's in from Hybern.

Meanwhile, Rhysand keeps the truth from Feyre about their mating bond, and clearly doesn't learn a lesson because he takes it a step further an hides information about HER BODY and HER PREGNANCY, so she nearly DIES IN CHILDBIRTH.

Tamlin locked Feyre in the manor, giving her a panic attack and emotional meltdown.

Meanwhile, Rhysand locked away his "family" for 50 years, doing goodness knows what to their psyche.

Tamlin and Rhysand are the same! They're both abusive!!! One of them is just validated and excused by the narrative, whilst the other is not and is held accountable for his toxicity (and is punished and ultimately has growth in ACOWAR, when he tells Feyre to "be happy" and leaves). Feysand shippers/Rhysand stans bullying Tamlin stans for stanning an "abusive" character is the pot calling the kettle black. No one should be harassed or bullied AT ALL, but if this type of bullying does occur it'll be arguably the most hypocritical nonsense I've ever seen.

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yenneferofriviaa · 2 years ago

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see the thing is, s/jm wants us to hate tamlin, and that to me says a lot about her as a writer.

she retcons writes tamlin as an unlikeable character in ac0maf because she wants everyone to despise him so that r/hysand is seen in a better light, not because he is actually an unlikeable character. she dislikes him because he hinders her perfect f/eysand ship, so she has him abuse f/eyre like r/hys did utm, except in his case his actions are properly acknowledged as abuse by the narrative because she wants him labelled as f/eyre's abuser (even though r/hys earned that title first). once this label has been slapped on him, she believes the only reaction readers can have to him is immediate hatred and condemnation, which is what she was aiming for when she wrote his whole plotline in ac0maf.

look, tamlin has done some bad, but he's also done some good. the same goes for literally every single character in this godforsaken series, including our lord & savior king r/hysand himself. the only reason tamlin is hated by the majority of the fandom and r/hysand isn't is because his own author hates him and strives to make everyone else feel the same way.

that's wrong, kids.

as a writer, you are ofc entitled to feel however you want to feel about what you write. you can love or hate anything in your own story, be it a plotline or a character or a setting etc. what you can't do, however, is tell your readers that they must feel how you feel about everything you write. books are art, and art is, as we all know, completely subjective. when you make your work public you are giving your story to the world and they have the freedom to form their own opinions on it. s/jm, however, hates tamlin and expects us to detest him as well, which she pushes in the narrative and in interviews whenever she talks negatively about him. she's in love with r/hysand and believes we all are too. she favors everyone in the ic and is not a fan of nesta and barely thinks lucien or jurian or kallias or anyone outside of the nc deserves rights, so we all must align our feelings with hers exactly. if you don't, she doesn't like or respect your opinion and her stans will literally be out for your blood.

it’s like, if an artist shows you a painting that they made and they say, "this painting should evoke only happiness" and you say, "i actually feel some sorrow when looking at it", they’re not gna stand there and go, "well, you shouldn't. you're feeling the wrong feelings. it's only happiness and nothing else because this painting makes me happy." except s/jm kinda does do that??

i've seen all the posts of her past interviews about ac0maf where she says things like "i kept seeing you all gush over tamlin after ac0tar and just thought, wait until ac0maf lol you'll hate him" and that was just so weird to me, that she automatically assumed tamlin would be unredeemable as a liked character because of what he did to f/eyre AND that she knew from the start that she was only creating him to use him as collateral damage for f/eysand's relationship formation.

newsflash, sarah j: if people actually hated the characters in your books that abused others, your precious little r/hysie and rowan whitethorn wouldn't be up on the pedestals they’re currently on. can you imagine if s/jm actually let r/hys and rowan's actions speak for themselves and wasn't biased towards them? they wouldn't be made out as these outrageously hot & feminist mfs, and i think a lot of people would actually be able to open their eyes and see how shitty they were to f/eyre & a/elin and just are in general.

tamlin was loved by a lot of people in ac0tar because he is likeable in that book, despite sarah's best efforts to counter that in the latter. she can't just take that love away from those readers by retconning him into someone completely different from who he was in book 1. it's crazy to me that she even tried, and that the stans think they too are entitled to bash anyone that still likes tamlin. he has a lot more depth to him than half of the other side characters, and his abuse, while it is something i will not justify or excuse, is not what his entire character consists of, so it's not like there's nothing else about him that his fans can like. i will even say the same for r/hysand, much as it pains me to be understanding of his character, so y’all don't think i’m being biased out here (again, how could i when i literally don't like either of these guys, as i’ve said plenty of times). although the difference in r/hys' case is that he was abusive towards f/eyre from the get-go and most, if not all, of their relationship consists of him controlling her, whereas tamlin's abuse only began in the second book and he & f/eyre had an actual, healthy relationship in the beginning (or healthier than f/eysand’s, at least, which is a pretty low bar). his character shows growth from ac0maf to ac0war whereas r/hys’ remains stagnant.

also, it's just sickening to me that the only way s/jm could think to make tamlin a villain and r/hysand a hero was through their harmful actions towards f/eyre. using SA as a hint at f/eysand's future romance/saying it "saved" f/eyre? revolting. using domestic abuse as a way to get f/eyre to leave tamlin for r/hysand? repulsive. i could list 50 more synonyms for 'disgusting' to really encapsulate my feelings about these particular storylines, but i'll reign it in this one time. s/jm writes every type of abuse in her books so gratuitously and never properly addresses it as a real issue, and that is not okay. abuse is not something to use when you want readers to feel a certain way about a character. it should never have been used the way it was in any of her books. s/jm is not capable of handling serious topics like this properly, as she’s proven time and time again, and i don’t understand why no one that works with her tries to stop her when she continues to do so.

idrk where i wanted to go with this post other than to say that s/jm is not a very professional writer when it comes to giving her readers autonomy over their own emotions and opinions regarding her books. also, just give tamlin a break. let him rest, y’all. that guy's really been through it.

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yenneferofriviaa · 2 years ago

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ignore this all you want she’ll never give af about tamlin because she see’s the character SHE wrote for what he is, an abuser that she’ll never write a ship for, a book for or even a storyline for. she doesn’t care about him so y’all can keep talking in circles amidst yourselves about that lucien beater and feyre abuser

wow it’s like you…totally missed the whole point LOLLL 😭

my darling anon, no one is saying tamlin is not an abuser. sarah wrote him as one, and we all read him as one. not a single soul on this blog has ever denied that he abused f/eyre and lucien. the problem lies with the fact that she:

wrote him only to be a conduit of abuse towards f/eyre and therefore provide her with trauma that she could become stronger from (which she could have gotten from literally anything else rather than from tamlin)

developed his romance with f/eyre solely with the intention to end it for f/eysand’s sake

treated him like every good thing he did in book 1 did not exist come acomaf

villainized him by the narrative even after he was an ally for f/eysand and everyone else in the war AND helped save r/hys’ life

acknowledged his abuse and held him accountable for it but did not do the same for r/hysand

there’s also the fact that it was extremely wrong of s/jm to use domestic abuse, a real, serious issue, as a plotline for f/eysand’s romance and f/eyre’s character development when there were SO MANY other routes she could have gone without having to put f/eyre’s character through that suffering and without totally butchering tamlin’s original character.

we KNOW sarah doesn’t care about him. THAT’S THE PROBLEM. what kind of skilled writer creates an entire character, which she spent more than a year developing in the first book and who was beloved by many readers, only to use him as collateral damage for another relationship in the latter books? if s/jm were as amazing a writer as y’all claim her to be she could have written acomaf in a way where tamlin and f/eyre split mutually or where f/eyre just wasn’t put through this gratuitous abuse after she already suffered from r/hysand’s utm (or did y’all conveniently forget about that part? 🤨) and tamlin could continue to be a good character that people enjoyed reading about. but nooo, instead we have to see everyone suffer through s/jm’s poorly handled themes of violence against women and her terrible representation of mental health issues and whatnot so that f/eysand can get the proper ‘enemies to lovers’ arc they deserve and so r/hysand can be redeemed as the misunderstood secret dark prince big dicked hero he is.

i am so tired of u tamlin antis. i am looking at his character from a critical, objective standpoint. i do not actually like his character. i thought he was icky the whole series, even in acotar. but i can still recognize, as should all of u, that he was done so dirty by his author, who never intended to give him a proper storyline from the beginning, and that people are ALLOWED to like him and talk about the injustices done to his character. if u stan r/hysand but in the same breath say tamlin should die because he’s an abuser, ur looking hella hypocritical bestie. just let people like who they want to like and stick to ur bat boys.

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yenneferofriviaa · 2 years ago

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Feyre: “I love her compassion and that at her lowest she still felt for other people. She has an unbreakable compassion.

Compassion??? Bitch where?? 💀😭

How- like- No I just want to understand the logic? How is Feyre compassionate?

At her lowest she felt for other people??

What?

She- she didn't feel for them, she helped kill them? She- literally was the reason behind the sacking of Spring and invasion of Summer and mass murder of thousands of people- Like she even acknowledges it?? In Acowar she says "these people were innocent" but later in the high lords meeting she says "the people I had lain bare to Hybern" She thought she was girl boss for destroying and uprooting peoples lives because she is so compassionate???

She belittled Tarquins trauma, mind-r*ped him, stole from him because she is so compassionate???

Left Tamlin in a letter because she is compassionate??

Used Lucien, a victim of a SA, to manipulate and create a rift between him and his only emotional support system because she is so compassionate??? Then after he was abused by said support system and found a new one she thought it was compassionate to make fun of it??

She didn't feel compassion for her own sister? Like Nesta was struggling and miss ma'ams solution was to what lock her in a tower? Cause that's so healthy and compassionate?????

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yenneferofriviaa · 2 years ago

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Okay yeah so the whole scene where Nesta Cassian and Eris are in the Spring Court is fucking WILD for a lot of reasons and is primarily the reason why I'm convinced that Tamlin is the only person in the series who reacts normally to anything. LIKE - these three choose to have their weird little espionage discourse in the Spring Court for NO REASON, and then get shocked and horrified and disgusted when Tamlin, the High Lord of Spring, shows up and goes, "Hey guys what the actual fuck are you doing here!?" Maybe don't have your club meetings in his backyard next time!?!?

There's the egregious retconning as well where Nesta remembers events that never happened - like the way I know that Tamlin never offered to take Nesta in Feyre's place is because the scene in question takes place in chapter fucking 3 of book one, and I had it open next to me when I was e-reading!

It's also weirdly out of character for Nesta who somehow gets like, deeply personally offended by Tamlin in the most convoluted way. Like I GUESS we can say that this scene acts as a catalyst for when she eventually goes to drop the Pegnancy Bombshell om Feyre because Nesta is deeply offended by the idea of a man taking away a woman's autonomy - except Rhysand is immediately absolved for removing Feyre's autonomy where Tamlin is being vilified for shit that never fucking happened in the text!?!?

This is a goddamn clown show.

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yenneferofriviaa · 2 years ago

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So abuse is mainly based on the need to control and isolate and holds an element of fear, so technically if we’re talking about barest bones technicalities, then yea, trauma can cause someone to try and control things around them. However, the control aspects tend to be linked or related to the trauma trigger or the thing the person previously or currently lost control of. Example: many young girls who feel overwhelmed by their parents and life (strict schedule, overbearing, overly critical of appearance, pushed through sports, etc) develop eating disorders because it’s something they have control over vs not having control before of their body and their life, and the fear aspect is them fearing not being perfect or fearing being fat or what have you. So the idea that Tamlin lost control of his self and his powers and his ability to protect those that care for him turned him into someone who holds a tighter leash is plausible. Locking Feyre in the house when she tries to put herself in danger is plausible. But in my personal opinion, everything else is literally 💩. He worked for his court for centuries before Feyre, kept them together for 49 years before Feyre, Feyre (who was literally only there to break a curse really) comes and goes within a year and he lets his court fall into disrepair? He starts assaulting members of his court that he would’ve died for? He becomes a raging abusive asshole instead of trying his hardest to keep them together? His biggest fear that his court would be destroyed starts happening by his hand? No that literally doesn’t make sense.

Exactly! I am not good at articulating this kind of thing into words lol, but this is exactly what I’m saying. It makes sense that Tamlin would act the way he did towards Feyre, and even towards Lucien, but I don’t see him suddenly becoming an almost comical dictator towards his people because of it.

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yenneferofriviaa · 2 years ago

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I’m gonna go ahead and say it: if every single main character in ACOTAR was arrested for the worst thing this fandom said they did within the scope of the books (meaning not even talking about things we as readers didn’t see happen), the only ones who would not be going to jail (in a fair & non-corrupt legal and judicial world) are Nesta, Elain, Lucien, and Tamlin. Like really, imagine if they got arrested for the things they were hated the most for, and all the evidence was there to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they all absolutely did what they were being accused of. That’s how I decide who to reserve my anger or disappointment or disgust towards.

Let’s really look at it. Nesta, so evil and abusive for…saying mean things? Letting Feyre hunt while she sat on her ass? The judge would immediately ask two questions: how old were you and where were your parents? Then he’d dismiss the charges.

Elain same as above.

Lucien…tbh, I don’t really know what people’s problem with Lucien really is other than he wasn’t immediately perfect to Feyre. Charges dismissed.

And even Tamlin. His biggest sin in the narrative is locking Feyre in the house, correct? (I asked around why people hate him so much and this was always the answer)… He (and Feyre) would probably be asked: why did you feel you had to do this, has this sort of thing ever happened before, are arguments common between you two, did you talk to her before this? And once all the answers come back (yes we argue, no this has never happened before, yes I tried talking to her but she didn’t listen, I was trying to keep her from hurting herself), those charges would also be dropped and the judge at most would order anger management and counseling FOR THEM BOTH (because I read the damn books). The judge would probably only tell Tamlin that he can’t do that sort of thing in the future even if it WAS to protect her, and to next time involve the cops if it’s not something they can resolve on their own.

Rhysand would be under the jail for his actions UtM ALONE. Convicted and charged for sexual battery or assault (both of which are felonies), aggravated assault, theft, torture, kidnapping, conspiracy to commit (insert crime here cause he’s done a lot), and a plethora of other things. UNDER THE JAIL. And this all is only in Book One. Imagine the list if we went book by book. He is by far one of the worst characters legally speaking that I’ve ever encountered.

Feyre would be convicted for theft (from Tarquin), conspiracy (for that shit she pulled in the spring court), endangering minors (spring and summer), manslaughter, kidnapping (what happened to Nesta IS kidnapping, legally) and more.

The entire inner court for conspiracy to kidnap and slavery (Nesta was working for the night court as emissary and as a warrior and in the library with no autonomy and NO WAGES and no choices to do anything other than what she was told, severe physical punishment given when she didn’t comply). They’d all be held accountable because of their positions of authority and power acting on Rhysand’s and Feyre’s behalf despite their autonomy. Jail time for them all. Elain doesn’t count here because she doesn’t have the same authority or autonomy to say no like the others considering her circumstance (newly turned fae, nowhere to go if they turn against her, living off of Feyre, etc.) so she’d probably be let off for helping pack Nesta’s stuff.

It’s really that simple to me. And that’s all without counting the magical stuff (the daemati powers are absolutely mind rape and rape is a felony) or the stuff specific to running sovereign governments (which is why I didn’t count torture for Azriel like I did for his master or the fact that women are being abused and mutilated under Rhysand’s authority right under his nose, which absolutely is neglect).

Reading this, all I could think was yessssssss. Long rant under the cut.

In the grand scheme of things, the Inner Circle are a group of war criminals and the "bad" characters just... aren't. The sense of morality is skewed in this story, and that would be fine... if it were just a blasé adult fantasy series written to explore dark themes. Instead, Mrs. Maas has made it clear across interviews that she's using real world values to try to teach a lesson about abuse and red flags and relationships and love and what it means to be good and bad, and the lesson she's teaching here is... not good. At all. To say nothing of the fact that this was originally published in YA.

Regarding Nesta and Elain: I truly can't see them as abusive. Do I particularly like either of them? No. But why would I hate them? Nesta is mean. That's it. I'm going to write more about this later, but in ACOTAR she only says two things to Feyre: that she smells after hunting, and that she won't amount to anything (in anger, after Feyre tells her she shouldn't get married). I've heard way worse than that from my younger brother. Is he abusive? (And the answer is no, as someone who was actually IN an abusive relationship I scream every time I see the "nEsTa Is AbUsIvE" posts start circulating around.) Because he and I would fight to death for each other if push came to shove. That's how siblings ARE. And that's how Nesta is with Feyre! She tried the best she could within her human limitations to bring Feyre back, and she couldn't. I've mentioned before about digging through the Feylin tag and finding some old posts from the ACOTAR fandom from 2015/early 2016, and you know what else I noticed, aside from people complaining about Feysand being popular? A lack of complaints about Nesta being "abusive." It's like people understood that they were siblings who fought frequently but still loved each other before Rhysand entered the picture and this series retconned itself to be about abuse and redflags instead of the usual fantasy fare... oh wait.

Additionally... we know Feyre can't cook, and was out hunting all day long. And if her father can barely move, then... who was cooking? Cleaning? Doing the housework? Like do people really believe Nesta and Elain just sat down and stared at the walls of their cottage every single damn day for 5 years. What's more likely--that they stared at walls for hours every single day for years on end or that they were probably doing housework--women's work, if you will? Here we do not devalue women's work! That shit is important.

Lucien has literally done nothing wrong, ever. He didn't do anything to Feyre UTM, so I don't know what this fandom is on when they say Rhysand hates him for UTM. I think they confuse Lucien healing Feyre's face and offering her his jacket UTM with Rhysand drugging, groping, and torturing her. In ACOMAF, Lucien is also in an abusive relationship with Tamlin? He's not in any state to help out Feyre? If you're mad at Lucien for being unable to fight against his and Feyre's significantly more powerful, mutual abuser, then you must also be upset with the Inner Circle for hiding the truth about Feyre's pregnancy from her for months on end, ultimately culminating in her nearly dying in childbirth, right? People also blame Lucien for trying to bring Feyre back in ACOMAF, like he didn't watch Rhysand drug and grope Feyre every single night for months and like Rhysand hasn't spent centuries wearing a mask of cruelty to convince people he's evil... ok. How dare Lucien fall for Rhysand's mask. How dare he be wary of Feyre staying with the male who drugged and assaulted her.

Then Tamlin himself. This is the only one where I disagree with you slightly, anon. Well actually... I'm not sure. I want to say, for posterity, that Tamlin is abusive in ACOMAF. I'm not debating that. My problem with Tamlin is that everyone acts like he does, but only he is called out as abusive for it, while it's excused when other characters do it. These are concrete actions. Either something is abusive or it's not. But... this fandom can't seem to decide that.

For example, is locking people up (like Tamlin did to Feyre) abusive? Most stans would say yes. But if it is, then that ALSO makes the Inner Circle abusive for locking up Nesta, and Rhysand abusive for locking them all up in Velaris for years on end. To use your example, they'd all go to jail. If the Inner Circle weren't abusive when they locked Nesta up, and if Rhysand wasn't abusive for locking the Inner Circle away for 50 years, then neither is Tamlin when he locks up Feyre, so... I'm at an impasse here. It's the same with his magic exploding when he's emotional. I'm not denying him losing control of his magic is physical abuse, but it was... unintentional. That's how Mrs. Maas wrote it. It is clearly written as an accident, triggered by Tamlin's emotions. My abuser kicked and punched me, and it was always intentionally done to get me to do what she wanted. Tamlin was not intentionally trying to hurt Feyre. A lot of people in the fandom consider this physical abuse, but it was, for all intents and purposes, and accident, and losing control of magic when feeling emotional has no real-world parallel. That's how Sarah wrote it. As something Tamlin could not control. If accidentally losing control of magic when in an emotionally charged situation is physical abuse, then doesn't that make Feyre abusive when she burned Beron and Lady Vanserra in ACOWAR? If it isn't abusive when Feyre loses control of her magic, then it's not abusive when Tamlin does it either. Either something is abusive or it isn't. What about keeping information from someone about their body? Tamlin kept information from Feyre about her powers. If that's abusive, then so is Rhysand keeping information from Feyre about her deadly pregnancy.

Not that Tamlin wasn't emotionally abusive as well, and not that he wasn't generally toxic in ACOMAF. Feyre still needed to get away from him, because he was retconned into being the perfect storm of abuse. But as I discussed above, the Inner Circle does all that and then some, acting wayyyyy worse than any other character I've discussed thus far, including, as you said: sexual assault, battery, torture, mind rape, theft, conspiracy... this response is already getting way too long but let's just say I agree with everything you said about the Inner Circle.

In conclusion: the hypocrisy drives me crazy, because Nesta, Elain, and Lucien don't do anything to warrant the level of hatred they receive, and while Tamlin is abusive, the Inner Circle acts like him and then some. If we argue that Tamlin is abusive for the things he does (which he is!) then that makes the Inner Circle abusive as well. And if not, if locking people up, losing control of magic, and keeping information from people isn't abusive... then the Inner Circle would still be in jail and are morally worse than Tamlin is, simply because they've committed war crimes and he... hasn't.

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