#you're a shipper through and through too except you make it everyone else's problem too

[luhman16]

Do not interact with trolls its not worth it, interacting with trolls is the mind killer, its the little death that brings total obliteration, i shall let it pass over and through me, and when i will look back, only i will remain

[aros001]

Going in blind: Watching season 5 for the first time. Random thoughts.

Episode 1: Well...that dinner got dark. From what other fans have told me apparently Glimmer gets a lot of hate for her decisions during the series and I just find that odd. I was more annoyed with her in the early seasons where her actions were more harmless simply because she had no patience and wouldn't listen because of her immaturity. Season 4 and here though? Even her most reckless and risky actions have at least been fueled by the genuine desire to keep people safe during a very hard situation. Even here, yeah, she tells Prime something it's very bad for him to know but he was going to have Adora and everyone else literally murdered before her eyes if she didn't. I can't really be mad at Glimmer for making a bad choice when it flows logically and fueled by the desire to keep the people she cares about from being slaughtered.

I don't think we've ever seen Catra this completely at the mercy of another person before, save maybe for Shadow Weaver when she was a child. She has nothing to offer that Prime doesn't already possess. Nothing he wants that he can't get for himself. Her relationship with everyone these past few seasons have been either "I'm your commander and you have to do what I say" or "You are my commander and here's the reason you have to keep me around". This time she has nothing to protect herself behind and the only reason she's still around is because Prime might think of a use for her later.

I love having Scorpia on the heroes' side.

Episode 2: That ending though.

I think what helps elevate Entrapta for me and keeps her for being annoying or irritating is that the show really sells that she just genuinely has trouble understanding why she should/shouldn't be doing certain things. It's not stupidity or even pure self-absorption, she just struggles with people and social ques while machines and science is a lot more straightforward. Heck, she was probably able to bond so well with Hordak because work together in the lab was them meeting on a common middle ground she could understand and relax in. The way she's trying to overcome the issue to help save Glimmer reminds me a little of Mob from Mob Psycho 100, feeling a little frustrated in not understanding something that she knows she should be.

Episode 3: Anybody else get a Disney's Hercules vibes at the end there?

Catra: "Besides, O Oneness, you can't beat her! She has no weaknesses! She's gonna kick your...!"

Prime, smiling: "I think she does, little sister." [Strokes Catra's hair] "I truly think...she does."

This episode really sold how completely isolated Catra is. With the sole exception of Glimmer, she's in space, no idea where exactly she is, onboard a ship filled with nothing but Prime and hundreds of cultist clones. Throughout the entire series we've seen Catra push everyone away and now that she's in a situation where she is almost well and truly on her own with no power, freedom, or authority, she seeks out the one other person around to find any sense of comfort in. Despite everything, Catra doesn't like being alone.

Little child Catra lashing out because she didn't want Adora to have any friends other than her kind of reminds me of Glimmer and Bow during the Princess Prom episode. I imagine it's the same mentality. Growing up in isolation, even if in different forms, and finding only that one person they feel thay can really lean on, there is that fear that they'll find someone else they like more and start caring about them less, or even outright stop. The difference is Bow set Glimmer straight, assuring her he'll always be her friend no matter what but he's not going to be just solely dedicated to her. Her fear was understandable but she was not respecting him as a friend either. Adora never really had that with Catra, one because she was much younger and less mature than Bow, and Catra was probably all she had too, to an extent. As we saw season 1, she was always trying to look after her, even when Catra needed to take responsibility for herself. Bow is not Glimmer's keeper, while Adora too often was that for Catra, so Bow and Glimmer have a better foundation of mutual respect while Adora and Catra's dynamic has been really screwed up for a long time.

Kind of tying into that, despite all that's happened between them, the minute Adora hears Catra's in distress she starts panicking and tearing up. The last time they saw each other they were very much enemies and Adora was done reaching her hand out to her. I suppose you could make the argument she's really been hoping all this time that Catra would finally do the right thing for once, just probably didn't expect it to be like this.

Prime better not mind wipe Catra like he did Hordak.

Episode 4: See, calling the heroes the rebellion now makes sense since they are rebelling against the established power, which is Prime.

Love that trick with the reflections, where you can sort of see/sort of can't see She-Ra. A nice little tease for what I imagine will be a big reveal later.

I really like that explanation for what Bow's going through. Last season's finale was the last he'd seen Glimmer and was desperately trying to save her, and he's been consistently worried for her since then. Now that she's safe he's starting to let himself process his other emotions towards her, and I totally get it. It's hard to be mad at someone when you're also terrified over what might be happening to them, even if your anger is justified. While I get why Glimmer last season did what she thought she had to, it was still a big risk that Bow warned her about and she didn't listen, putting them all in danger. This situation and Glimmer's words is a very mature way of handle this topic. He's not wrong for being mad and it's not a contradiction to what we've been seeing from him this season. Humans and emotions are complicated.

Episode 5: SHE HAS PAAAAAAAAANTS!!! (I will miss the cape though)

That almost makes up for them cutting Catra hair. Seriously, that mane was beautiful!

But boy, speaking of Hercules, that return of She-Ra definitely felt like Hercules emerging from the pool of souls to save Meg.

With the one clone being disconnected from the hive mind and having a breakdown over it, that does make me wonder if Hordak has been connected to it. Wasn't he deemed a defect because Prime couldn't connect to his mind? I suppose it's possible that flaw was corrected. Clearly Prime can take over minds other than just his clones, like with Catra. But if he could do that I'm wondering why he just didn't when Hordak was first created and he instead cast him out to Etheria.

Was Catra purring at the end? I swear there was a sound that sounded like purring.

Episode 6: Assimilation is easily one of my biggest fears in fiction, be it zombies, Borgs and Cybermen, Get Out, the freaking Sapphire Dragon from Xiaolin Showdown that scared the hell out of me as a kid! Just the concept of having your free will and autonomy completely ripped away from you, potentially with you still being aware but unable to do anything about it, is horrifying! At least with Prime's chips the process is reversible.

Anyway, in lighter plots, I kind of love Wrong Hordak. He's really funny. I feel bad that he's being deliberately misled, but he really shouldn't be following Prime anyway, so...

I do like that Adora is being a little more tough on Catra. She needs kindness, yes, but she also needs honesty and discipline, the kind that has actual love and care behind it, unlike what she got from Shadow Weaver. Adora is genuinely trying to help so Catra needs to stop acting like a brat and LET HER HELP.

Episode 7: Catra was definitely purring.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume people probably ship Scorpia and Perfuma. Not that I have any problem with that. It's like the Midoriya/Todoroki ship; I don't ship it myself but I totally get why others do. It's a relationship based in mutual respect and one of the characters having a significantly positive effect on the life of the other. As long as the shipper themselves is not horrifically toxic, I don't care.

Also, I don't think I've ever been so intimidated by Mermista before than I was with that one shot of her in silhouette, just before the reveal she was chipped.

Episode 8: Okay, I definitely love Wrong Hordak. Just that realization of his. "Horde Prime...lied to us..." There's just something about it that's so full of character. Obviously he's a brainwashed clone but he was truly devoted to Prime and just to find out that he would keep something so big from them, from the hive mind that's supposed to be so open to him and each other, it destroys everything he ever believed in. It's hilarious to watch him prepare to lead his brothers in a revolt against Prime.

I assume magic is Prime's "weakness" in that he himself cannot control it. Obviously he can control magical beings like Spinnerella and have them use magic but magic itself is too free and too powerful for him to contain and fully fight back against. He's all about order and stillness and magic is basically chaos.

Episode 9: I like to believe the mushroom kingdom they saved is a Mario reference.

Something I like in hero stories is "the power of a name" or "the power of a symbol". Something as simple as Superman's S-shield can have so much weight and meaning behind it just because of the person it's tied to. She-Ra isn't just a powerful warrior to the people of Etheria, she's a hero of legend. We saw it touched on even back in season 1 how much Adora returning She-Ra to the world meant to everyone. She-Ra to them is a symbol of hope. If they have her on their side, then they believe they might be able to win and with that ordinary people can find the strength to fight too. It's something I think the Green Lantern put best with how the Blue Rings of hope supercharge the Green Rings of will but lose a lot of their functions when the greens are not around. Hope is useless if you don't have the will to also act, but in turn hope can give people the will to act. The more hope they have that they can win, the more they will fight to win.

That was the nerdiest comparison I've ever made.

Episode 10: I appreciate a good bad dad joke and that's why I can't approve of "punderstand". It's too much of stretch to flow well. "Ruined" was good though.

I'm less surprised that Scorpia's been chipped and more that she's even alive. She was at the bottom of the ocean when the roof broke and she's a scorpion woman. I don't think water is a very friendly element for her. She's even commented on how good the desert was to her.

I wonder her She-Ra mode is not working for her simply because Adora is exhausted; mentally and physically. I don't think she's ever used the form this continuously before, and she's been doing it without the First Ones' sword that she has experience with. Her new sword and its transformations may be made out of her own energy for all we know. And then there's just the emotional toil of having Catra back in her life while it feels like more and more of the world is being turned against her.

Episode 11: Oh, I'm definitely shipping Hordak and Entrapta.

I think Re:Zero has spoiled me on dark magic. While Micah with his dark magic is a threat, in this show and many others dark magic basically just equates to "spooky, evil, bad stuff" magic that isn't that different from most other kinds of magic other than being either harder to control or more geared towards causing harm. In Re:Zero, dark magic was DARK. It felt unnatural, like a perversion of how their world's magic is supposed to be and that it didn't belong in this reality. Micah's dark magic is basically "I'm attacking you with shadows, oOoOoOo so scary!"

Not really surprised Catra left. She just got Adora back and now she's potentially about to let herself die. Perfuma said it best, letting people in and letting herself be vulnerable is hard. Caring about Adora and watching her die would be a huge blow, so Catra would rather curl back up into her shell and block out Adora again than have to risk taking that hit.

Episode 12: I keep saying it but now having them right next to each other, yeah, Mara's She-Ra outfit is better than Adora's. I don't know, there's just something grander about it. Anyway, on topic, I'm a big fan of superheroes and legacy and all that and I really like Mara's words to Adora. All she did and sacrificed was so that others, especially the next She-Ra, wouldn't have to do the same. It doesn't matter how noble and heroic it is, tragedy is tragedy and anyone who knows that kind of pain doesn't want anyone else to have to go through it.

I'm not surprised by the love confession between Glimmer and Bow. I felt it could go either way with them either hooking up or just staying really good friends, but that in itself is a sign of how good and natural their friendship is. I can easily buy how it would evolve into something more between them. The situation they're in probably helps. When Glimmer was taken they both thought they might never see each other again and that fear and worry probably caused them to reevaluate how they feel about the other. They've been clinging to each other since getting back, as every day could be their last. Something like that is naturally going to push two people together.

Episode 13: So...are there any plans for a season 6? Or a comic continuation like Avatar and Korra got? Because this was a good finale...buuuuuuuuut I feel there are definitely some things that needed a bit more exploration.

This is typically why I like stories with epilogue endings, especially those set some number of years in the future. Little glimpses of what everyone's doing now, allowing the audience to fill in for themselves what happened in-between. There's nothing wrong with this episode but it does just kind of...stop. They beat Prime. Everybody's cheering and happy. Adora suggests they bring magic back to the universe. And...that's it. We don't see anything more. No aftermath, no post-war, nothing. We end on the moment of victory, and while it's not a bad moment it leaves the ending feeling a little incomplete.

It kind of feels like the writers either really had to rush to the ending to make the 13 episode deadline or simply didn't want to address whatever happens with Catra and Hordak now. With the bigger threat of Horde Prime it makes sense why everyone puts aside past issues and works together. But now that the crisis is over, naturally everyone would have to address everything the Horde had done to Etheria for years with Hordak and Catra leading it. Don't get me wrong, I believe that Catra loves Adora, I believe Adora loves her, and I believe Catra wants to be a better person. It's not like I'm saying she needs to be locked up or executed. But she did cause a lot of damage and put Adora especially through hell, and just because Shadow Weaver is the one who screwed her up so bad doesn't mean she doesn't have any responsibility for her own actions. So it just would have been nice to get even a little bit of lip service to show that Catra would be trying to right her wrongs from this point forward, instead of just "Prime's gone, everyone's happy, bye!" At least with Entrapta she seemed to genuinely not understand why what she was doing at the time was wrong and Scorpia, like Adora and Huntara, defected from the Horde to do the right thing despite it being even more part of her upbringing than anyone else. I can't even imagine what happens with Hordak now.

Don't get me wrong, this is far from the worst I've ever seen a redemption handled. I haven't read/watched any of Boruto outside of the movie and Gaiden tie-in but I've read all of Naruto and there is no reason that Orochimaru should just be walking around and casually talking with people after all he's done. Kaiba in the Yu-Gi-Oh manga built an entire theme park to try an murder Yugi and his friends and they bring it up like twice after that arc. Kylo Ren turning back to the light was one of the potential paths for his character, so that made sense in TROS, but they essentially did "He died heroically and therefore totally redeemed himself for every terrible thing he's ever done."; basically a cop-out. Catra's alive and can at least potentially still own up to her actions and work to redeem herself. And I love Steven Universe, but kind of like with Catra nearly killing everyone (including herself) via the unstable portal, fans have naturally pointed out that the Diamonds enslaved and committed genocide on multiple planets and really faced no consequences for that other than "Stop it". Catra's not at the gold standard of redemption stories, which for me is probably Zuko and Endeavor, but she's far from the bottom. I think the best way to describe it is that Catra had as good, if not better, reasons for being so bad and screwed up as Zuko did, just as good step-up for turning good as Zuko did, but she didn't have nearly as much payoff afterwards to make it feel like a full journey like Zuko did.

But enough about all that. Love the basically goddess She-Ra Adora became. Given the emphasis on healing powers with She-Ra we've had, I'm guessing that's essentially how she destroyed Prime. She purified Hordak and Prime was basically an infection within him. I like when heroes snatch victory from the jaws of defeat but I also when there's an implication towards the villain that "Wow. I never stood a chance." She-Ra's power just dwarfs his. Full potential realized by Adora and he was just gone.

Also I don't know how I forgot that Prime could jump into the bodies of his clones but his possession of Hordak got me. I genuinely couldn't think of how he'd survive after Hordak shoved him off the edge (set free by the power of love!).

And even if the ending feels a little incomplete, the episode itself still did well with my emotional investment. I was gripped by during Catra's confession and the tension within the heart.

Season 5 and overall series verdict: I'm very glad I saw this series. Even though its ending falls a little short for me, this was still really good. Seasons 3 was probably my favorite overall but this story had a very good flow to it. It steadily built up bigger each season, with Catra and Hordak being really compelling villains driving the whole thing. Not that Prime was bad. He was a genuine threat and his cult of clones is a good creepy concept. He's just not as good as the other two. I'm sure part of what elevates him up is because I'm thinking of the JL director's cut but Hordak really is just better Steppenwolf. Everything that worked about that character, Hordak is that to an 11.

Given how I've talked about her more than any of the others, Catra is probably my favorite character. Just the damage that girl has been through. I always understood why she was doing what she did, even though there was rarely a moment I'd agree with exactly what she was doing. Again, it's one of the reasons it feels like the series just kind of ended. There's a lot to be seen with Catra's character now, a lot that can be done, and it just feels like a shame to really not show any of it. This isn't a fault of SRPOP itself because so many series, especially animated and anime, are guilty of but it always bugs me when a series ends on two characters hooking. Relationships are interesting, I'd argue more so than the build-up to them, but no writer ever wants to actually explore them after the hook-up. I never cared about Korra and Mako being a couple but I still found their relationship as a couple more interesting and character building than any of the will they/won't they build-up to it. And I actually like the idea of Adora and Catra as a couple. It's a big reason why I'm so happy the Harley Quinn animated series got renewed for a third season, as it otherwise would have just ended on a hook-up between two characters who, like Adora and Catra, love each other but have had a complicated dynamic for a while. I believe Adora and Catra love each other, but they've got a lot of stuff to work out and I want to see that! Catra's got abandonment issues and that in turn caused her to be unhealthily possessive over Adora. Just seeing the two of them try to work through that alone would be fascinating.

Like I suspected early on, Scorpia's my favorite supporting character. Entrapta's a decent 2nd. Took a small dip when it seemed like she was joining the Horde over feeling abandoned by the princesses when they thought she was dead but that picked back up once it was made more clear "Oh, okay, you're not being petty or stupid. You genuinely don't understand." It made her a more interesting character, and I love her and Hordak's relationship.

Least favorite characters...probably Sea Hawk and those three former Horde friends of Adora and Catra. I never hated them but I never cared about what was happening when they were on screen. They fill out the world a bit, they drive the plot, they're not wastes of space, they even get some laughs. There are just so many other characters in the series way more interesting than them.

Biggest surprise for me was definitely Glimmer and Bow. I never thought I'd dislike them but the best friends characters in series like this can kind of go one way or another with how relevant or deep they are. Glimmer especially I was surprised how much I was invested. She really grew a lot as a person throughout the series and I thought the dilemma over the Heart of Etheria was a good one.

Honestly there's a lot more I could talk about but I have only so many words and my thoughts are a jumble right now so I'm going to leave it at that. I will say I really appreciate how supportive you all on this Reddit have been. It's something I hate about some other fandoms I'm in where they basically are so toxic that they make no one else actually want to watch/read the thing they're fans of because they can't help but associate it with them.

Original Reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/PrincessesOfPower/comments/o2p6wq/going_in_blind_watching_season_5_for_the_first/

[roominthecastle]

I can't help but think you're being a bit too hard on Eleanor because of ship bias. I mean, why would you called her 'her worst self' and 'selfish' when she's always been one to throw stuff to get in heaven (even with the character development)? But suddenly she's being sappy and depending on someone who isn't Michael and the whole M/E fandom is at her throat. I'm as unconfortable as the next shipper with all the C/E scenes but is it really Eleanor and her characterization that's at fault?

Yes, of course I am biased (to a certain degree). When the show caters to my preferences, I’m more docile and much less likely to nitpick and complain, when it doesn’t and it drops the ball to boot, I get grumpy. So I’m your garden variety fan, basically. But I don’t believe I’m “at Eleanor’s throat”. Her and Chidi being together doesn’t make me uncomfortable bc it’s her and Chidi and not her and Michael (+ I often see things popping up in the C/E dynamic that can have potentially interesting implications for Michael’s development and for M/E, too. Generally speaking, the three of them make up a curious whole for me).

I know the chances of (2-sided) M/E happening are somewhere btw zero and never, so I’m not exactly eyeballing C/E as some kind of obstacle to my personal shipper nirvana, jumping at any chance to “punish” Eleanor for choosing the “wrong” partner. But I do feel uncomfortable with the way the C/E romance is written this season. “They are sidelining my no. 1 dynamic”, while frustrating, is not the reason for this, it’s not why I’m not crazy about Eleanor’s behavior and Chidi’s OOC-ness.

Eleanor + character development always resulted in stuff like her being emotional and vulnerable w/o getting aggressive and demanding, her accepting it when Chidi turned her down w/ dignity despite feeling heartbroken, and her being considerate of others to the point of volunteering to go to the Bad Place to save them. This is where she was a year ago and the year before that at the end of each season. This is not where she is now. I’m not saying being selfish and throwing stuff is not in her character make up or her problem-solving toolbox. Her overcoming these impulses, however, is the very point of her character development (made blindingly obvious last season when she lied about passing the Judge’s test and refused to go through the portal to TGP). What we have (currently! so it can change any time) in S3 is the opposite (see the in-your-face door to TGP that won’t open for her), it’s her completely giving in to these impulses to the point of seriously endangering everyone, meaning that she has, in fact, regressed. I suspect it is a point the show is trying to make but we’ll have to wait and see.

In “Janets”, all Janet asks is that they stay put until she and Michael deal w/ accounting. Eleanor works herself into a state over Chidi not opening up to her on command, putting Janet through hell and almost erasing her friends from existence while her own self is also disintegrating. Despite the serious consequences, this harmful behavior carries right over into the next ep where all Michael asks is that they lay low bc folks in TGP are so rule obsessed, they can send all of them right back to TBP. Eleanor immediately smashes stuff at the door to TGP bc it doesn’t open up for her when she demands it. It’s her bullying of Chidi from the previous ep all over again, only in a vase-meets-door form. Even Chidi has to be all about her now as he magically turns into a grossly idealized version of himself (see in S2 how she rejected a similar “fake Chidi”), spending the entire ep trying to prevent her from blowing up again while the rest of the team is cleaning up the mess in the mail room and Michael is away trying to fix the calculation issue. Despite the crazy-intense circumstances, everybody is trying to do something for somebody else except her - she is still hyper-focused on herself and it stands out to me bc this is a version of her I’ve never seen before and it’s def not the best one.

Again, it’s not because she is w/ Chidi but the issues become especially apparent within that dynamic since the second Michael showed her those memories, she just latched onto Chidi, expecting him to fill the void left by her screwed up upbringing that’s been freshly dredged up thanks to her not-dead mother. They made her lurch from “I’m incapable of love” to “I’m madly in love and nothing else matters”, hand-waving determinism while failing to provide any other reason why these 2 are suddenly together again. They are trying to play it as romantic/funny but it’s not romantic when someone’s whole identity has to be propped up by another person and it’s not funny how that other person has to repress his own identity/issues to be able to do this. It’s a suffocating, unsustainable interplay. Or if it’s meant to be interpreted as “love cures mental illness and erases every character flaw in 5 minutes, so you can finally be the proper romantic partner”, then it’s even worse. You don’t have to be a shipper of another ship or look too deep into this story to see these (imo) legitimate problems (but it helps, yes, since it’s natural to be more critical of sth you’re not emotionally invested in and gloss over stuff to preserve the fun potential when it’s your OTP or sth, I do give you that).

Eleanor having to coerce love and attention out of Chidi will never be cute, either, or proof that those feelings were there all along. People pushed some quotes from WJH into my face about how Chidi calms down bc he finally has what he always wanted - interesting choice of words, btw, given the pin Michael gave Eleanor - but 1) an actor’s opinion will not automatically replace my own (no, not even if it’s Ted’s or some other big fave’s) and 2) how exactly were we supposed to glean that Chidi wanted to be with her so much in this reboot? Was it when he went steady w/ another woman despite Eleanor being an option all along? was it when he refused to give private lessons to her bc he was just too busy? or was it when he - despite witnessing her meltdown - sent her packing bc they already had enough material for his study? For some reason the writers missed every opportunity to build this up properly and make this extremely syrupy display stick, but I’ve already said everything about that in another post.

This whole idea of “he felt this way all along, he just didn’t actually show it, so we can skip actual development” is a lazy, corner-cutting approach which reminds me of the worst kind of fanservice attempts I’ve had the misfortune of experiencing with several of my favorite shows recently. I have very low tolerance for that stuff now bc it never ends well. I did not expect to see this particular brand on this particular show, but here we are, I guess. Or if it’s a case of creative exhaustion/boredom where this billion times rebooted couple is concerned, then maybe it’s time to park them and give a not yet over-explored dynamic some attention instead to keep things fresh and fluid as opposed to stale and forced - again, not an unreasonable request, even if it comes from someone who is invested in another dynamic, given the lack of care that was apparently put into developing C/E this season.

I don’t like not liking things on this show (and it’s not Eleanor I don’t like, it’s the way they deconstructed her in order to write her back into a relationship as if she couldn’t exist w/o it), and I am sorry if I disappointed or offended bc it was not my intention. I hope they flip things or introduce a new angle that will make me re-evaluate. I am always open to that whenever new material arrives and I honestly hope they will make me eat my words soon. I will merrily absorb the suckerpuches. But for now, this is my opinion and “you just don’t like that she is not with your fave” - while a natural factor - is not the main reason why I made my comments.

[araeph]

Conversation with prune-balled-blog

{NOTE: This is unedited, so please excuse spelling and grammar errors. With one exception--colons, which automatically bold anything in chat, have been replaced with [colon] where necessary to preserve the original formatting. Also, this is NOT an invitation to harass prune-balled-blog. Please do not @ him about this.}

prune-balled-blog: Sorry for the confusion. Should asked this. Do you know WHO talked with Aaron Ehasz?

Should have*

araeph: There are various tumblr and message board users who claimed to have talked to him. Some on the Kataang side[colon] http[colon]//araeph.tumblr.com/post/152660740000/web-archive

Some on the Zutara side[colon] http[colon]//araeph.tumblr.com/post/159119946362/kataraandzuko-terminaschosenone

But I don't know any of them by name.

prune-balled-blog: Thanks for the reply.

araeph: You're welcome. [smiley]

prune-balled-blog: It's all fake by the way. Aaron confirmed it on an Reddit AMA. The whole "Season 4/I had a different vision" thing was debunked.

Also, this for good measure.

[two screenshots inserted of reddit AMA]

araeph: Yes, I saw that post. However, what he said was the studio asked him to think up ideas for Season 4 and that he discussed them with Mike. So he did come up with ideas for it, even if they never went into production.

I also would call The Legend of Korra daring and beautiful. I just don't think it was any _good_.

prune-balled-blog: But those ideas were never outspoken.

It's all smoke and mirrors.

araeph: You mean, he never spoke to anyone else about Book 4? We don't know anything about who he did or didn't talk do between the period when Nick asked him to think up suggestions and the time when Bryke shut it down.

Of course, neither do we know that he said any of the things he allegedly said in those tumblr posts. [smiley]

prune-balled-blog: It's very easy to infer that he said absolutely nothing to anyone about anything.

He certainly would have gotten into more detail, but he didn't.

araeph: It's certainly possible. But nothing is certain.

prune-balled-blog: I mean, i would say the chances of Unicorns existing are pretty low.

araeph: How do you know he would "certainly" have gone into more detail?

prune-balled-blog: Because he seems to know of "Fake interviews", and i'm sure he would been able to go into further detail explaining that he didn't discuss any details of a possible Season 4 with some random. My point, is that had those claims been true, he would feel the need to address them further to clear further confusion. But his post implies the entire shebang was a ruse.

prune-balled-blog: There's no need to speculate any further. It was all a big hoax made by Zutara shippers putting Aaron on a pedestal to expand on their agenda. And people who didn't like Korra.

araeph: I think the opposite is true. If he'd said, "I never discussed it with anyone but Mike, and all the interviews from fans are fake," that would have been easy. He said there were some fake interviews out there, and that he did discuss it with Mike, and that's all we know.

Since it was suggested at the studio level, no it was not a hoax, and no one ever put Ehasz on a pedestal.

prune-balled-blog: I'm going to have to disagree with you there.

prune-balled-blog: And oh, yes they certainly do.

araeph: That's fine if you disagree.

prune-balled-blog: Look everywhere. People praise Ehasz as the sole reason why Avatar was good only because he was head writer.

prune-balled-blog: This whole thing reeked of angry fans methodically building a boogeyman because they were unhappy with how things went for their favorite show.

araeph: Actually, it's more of a process of elimination.

Before I saw Legend of Korra, I too thought Bryke were the be-all-end-all of Avatar.

Then LOK's writing let me down, and I started realizing there were people with power to influencing the writing of ATLA.

prune-balled-blog: You don't have to go through the motions. I know exactly your point of view.

araeph: Maybe it was Tim Hedrick or Joshua Hamilton? But they went on to make Voltron, and while that show was good for a while, it's headed off the rails now.

prune-balled-blog: Yeah but were we REALLY shocked when things didn't turn out perfect? Any show would have a stark difference in quality had an army of writers left a project.

araeph: Yes, it would.

prune-balled-blog: Assuming Korra would be just as good as Avatar, due to some naive 'understanding' that Bryke is the "end-all-be-all" is just silly.

araeph: Since almost everyone outside the fandom knows Bryke as /the/ creators of the show, and since they were the executive producers, it actually makes sense.

It just happened to be wrong.

prune-balled-blog: All you had to do was look at who was in charge, and marginalize your expectations accordingly.

prune-balled-blog: Actually, not entirely. It's dumb to assume two guys from Rhode Island (?) who had no prior experience running a show or writing a script, that they would churn out gold a second time without the 15 or so extra writers on board.

Not to mention a missing Head Writer.

What this fandom did to Bryke was shameful.

They kicked them in the dirt and spat on them for making something they wanted.

Aaron was a talented guy, and likely a massive contributor to what made Avatar a great piece.

prune-balled-blog: But what people did to demonize these poor guys was a complete and utter disgrace.

araeph: If you think fans (most of whom have no experience in television) should have known better than the studio heads who banked on EXACTLY the churning out gold a second time premise that we did, I don't know what to tell you.

araeph: Bryke aren't poor, and they're not victims.

prune-balled-blog: Would you forgive a thief for committing a crime because he didn't know stealing was wrong? This should be pretty obvious, no?

They certainly aren't villains.

araeph: Hahaha, so people who are ignorant of the details of television production are comparable to thieves?

prune-balled-blog: And if you think so, you're delusional.

araeph: Let me make this simple. Bryke accepted the credit for being the overall creators of the show.

prune-balled-blog: It was a hyperbolic example. Should have been obvious.

araeph: They got the accolades, so they get all the criticism for not living up to expectations.

araeph: Thievery is not an exaggeration of not delving into production details from a medium you're not an expert in.

prune-balled-blog: That's bizarrely unfair.

araeph: It's called "with great power comes great responsibility".

prune-balled-blog: I know. I saw Spider-Man.

And honestly, the people who spread this bull online should have listened to Uncle Ben.

araeph: How much power do a bunch of online fans really have, compared to successful showrunners who can snap their fingers and get a press release into the news?

prune-balled-blog: A lot, actually. For example, when Microsoft announced the Xbox One, they had a slew of controversial shit under their belt. After 2 days of nonstop harassment from fans, they reneged on that deal. And boom. Huuuuge change.

The internet is a powerful tool.

prune-balled-blog: Granted, that was a good change. Considering Microsoft went out of their way to enslave gamers wallets and playful freedom.

araeph: True. But for every example like that, Microsoft as a thousand other unpopular practices that they continue with no matter how many people complain.

araeph: I don't know of Bryke ever admitting to changing something about the way they took care of business, just because people complained.

prune-balled-blog: I would happen to agree with that. But the bottom line is that the internet is a tool.

prune-balled-blog: My main point is this. Pleading ignorance to how a show is made is not a serviceable answer for what fans have said/lied about with Bryke. That's all.

araeph: I disagree. When a show is marketed by creators like Bryke as a true successor to their previous work, and they make NO attempt to tamp down expectations themselves, they can't blame people who are not industry professionals for believing the hype that THEY and the studio they worked with spread far and wide.

araeph: And if your argument is, "Well you should have known better than to believe what they said," then you can't also make the argument of "poor Bryke" if the latter were intentionally misleading and exaggerating.

prune-balled-blog: What they said? No, i said you should have been able to infer you miiiight just be getting something a taaad bit different if you only saw they were returning, and no one else.

araeph: But this is exactly the problem. You're blaming fans for not reading between the lines, and not Bryke, who put out those very lines, despite the latter having vastly more power and experience at their disposal.

araeph: They, as showrunners, had a greater responsibility to inform fans of what LOK would really be like than the fans had to research and acquaint themselves with the intricacies of making television.

prune-balled-blog: Let me ask you something. Is it probably a fair/good idea to create a fake hoax that basically claimed Ehasz had been at odds with Bryke the entire production, claimed a Season 4 was supposed to be made, and that he had different plans for Korra had be been involved?

Bryke said Korra was going to be a sequel in the future, with a new Avatar. They were also the only confirmed writers. You can infer A LOT from that.

araeph: If any (or all of those interviews) are hoaxes, they should be condemned and the people who made them up should be criticized for it. I personally still believe there was some tension, but stating my opinion, even if it's based on speculation, isn't dishonest unless I pass it off as fact.

prune-balled-blog: That's fair enough.

araeph: As for what they said about Korra ...

http[colon]//comicsalliance.com/the-legend-of-korra-michael-dante-dimartino-bryan-konietzko-interview/

:I really love when Korra arrives in Republic City and sees Aang's statue for the first time. There's a moment where she's almost in a trance. She's in awe of Aang and also wants to become as great an Avatar as he was. The Legend of Korra is a little like that for us. We know we have a big legacy to live up to, but hopefully this series will be even better than the original."

[doriananonsblog]

I have very complicated feelings on wincest sometimes

(An essay from a firsthand personal perspective on codependent sibling relationships)

Now obviously I do ship it, I've written for it before. I didn't get it originally, but I was curious, and once I read some fics I did start to get the appeal and understand it. However I do still have the same protest sometimes that was my original No, because I just have issues with the suppositions a lot of the shippers MAKE about a relationship like that.

Another disclaimer: I know not all wincest shippers necessarily view their relationship this way, and there are certainly degrees of it (like with how young it starts), but it is certainly widely thought.

So here's the thing. You people just don't fucking understand. You don't understand what it's like to be in a relationship like that. I had an extremely close, codependent relationship with my sister because we went through childhood trauma and neglect together and had to take care of each other, a lot like Sam and Dean, and I'm telling you that you people don't understand what that type of relationship is LIKE. I'm going to tell you, and you're going to nod along and be like yes, yes Dorian, we know/could have guessed this, but then I am going to explain the parts you don't get, so just bear with me please. (Also yes, you will notice this is in past tense. We had a falling out. Does not invalidate the intensity of that bond. I mean even Sam and Dean didn't talk for several years sooo).

She was my EVERYTHING, literally she was everything to me. She was the only person I trusted. I wasn't sure if I could feel love for a while, but I thought what I felt for her might be or was at least the closest thing I had. And then when I found out I could after all, I realised I loved her above all else and it was immeasurable. The intensity of emotions, of ATTACHMENT I had to her was fucking insane, the loyalty, the idolisation. She was also so fucking beautiful to me, just one of the most beautiful people I'd ever seen. She was just perfect — I knew her flaws, and that was okay, because I loved her and she loved me. The sun shone outta her ass and I'd've done anything to protect and take care of her, and I thought she knew me better than anyone in the goddamn universe. She was my sister and best friend wrapped up into one, added together to make something that was MORE than the sum of its parts that I've never quite found a name for, and I didn't think I could ever bring somebody else as close as her (still don't. And I probably shouldn't). It. I mean it was kind of obsessive, but yeah, what did you expect.

Now what you don't understand is that as intense as that was, there were absolutely no romantic or sexual feelings. They just weren't there. And yes, we DID do a lot of things that maybe crossed lines, 'too close' shit that is flagged in wincest stories. Shared beds at motels, like up until there were no more motels, so 18 and 20yrs old was the last time I think. Told each other how beautiful they were/just sat and admired them sometimes. Cuddled just for comfort/pleasure. Were very touchy, all over each other sometimes. And this was at a point when I couldn't STAND people touching me, and I still can't, but she was the exception, for some reason her touch didn't feel bad the way everyone else's did, it was nice and I welcomed it, wanted it even. Didn't have a problem changing clothes in front of each other. Talking about our sex lives in detail, or before that asking questions about sex. Christ, I literally just remembered she was curious what I was doing when I learned how to masturbate because I was very little and we shared a room and I wasn't subtle, so I showed her that you could grind yourself against something and it would feel good. Can't remember how old exactly, but maybe 5ish? We held hands; I remember one time we went with family to walk around some public gardens for a few hours and we held hands the whole time, and we were 16 and 18 at that time, it couldn't be passed off as a cute little kids thing. But...despite ALL of that. I know how it sounds, but that's why it's not called a healthy relationship, it's codependent, but despite all of that nothing in me felt romantically or sexually attracted to her ever. I am gay, or I do generally just say I'm gay bc like I am 99%, but I have been attracted to a couple of women, so it's not impossible, that's not the reason (plus some people write Sam and/or Dean as straight and the other being their one exception, so). And due to some things I can't disclose, I'm POSITIVE my sister never had those feelings for me either.

So it just. It BOTHERS me. That like. These people who have no fucking clue what it's like come in and they just make all these assumptions just because of closeness, yes sometimes even somewhat erotic closeness, because that doesn't. It doesn't automatically MEAN that. And like, it CAN, I can see how it COULD, I can see how it could turn into that, or maybe they were just gonna be like that no matter what. But like. Just. The assumption that it HAS to be that kind of gets to me. The things like acting like it's SO ridiculous that they didn't realise that there were non-platonic feelings, when they were acting so 'overly close', when NO that's not ridiculous! Those things don't have to be incesty! Lines get blurry when relationships get WEIRD okay. It's just. It's NOT a normal relationship, and the way you feel about each other, the way you just NEED each other, crave closeness, sometimes feel like you want to just consume them like a black hole, merge into one person if only you could just phase into each other. It's obsessive! It's unhealthy! It's abnormal! But it's NOT inherently romantic or sexual, despite western society's emphasis on closeness always being about those things.

So I guess TL;DR I'm not hating on wincest, but I hate the assumption that their extreme closeness, and any close/codependent/homoerotic even behaviours they exhibit HAVE to actually be due to romantic and/or sexual attraction, because, speaking as someone with firsthand experience being in a codependent sibling relationship with a lot of probably 'too close' and some possibly erotic from an outside point of view interactions, I can tell you that it 100% Does Not Have To Come With Those Feelings, and you just Don't Understand the way the relationship is just Like That. In a way it kind of ends up having to be because there's just. There's no other outlet, there's no other way for the DEPTH, the INTENSITY of it to be expressed, and it just HAS to be.