#you can read the novel read the manga (THERE IS A SHOUJO AND SEINEN VERSION!!!) WATCH THE ANIME OR THE LIVE ACTIONS | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

madara-fate · 2 years ago

Note

-I have sent you an ask a few days ago asking what was wrong with the formating of the post because when I had another blog try it was fine from their side but you didn’t respond yet you reply to others and

-Seeing as how you had no problem addressing and using content I wrote in that post to reply to other people's asks as well as answer other asks, it seems you do not wish to continue this discussion with me specifically?

I very much did respond to your ask, I responded privately to you, and the proof is below:

Where I explicitly told you what was wrong, so don't go saying how I apparently didn't respond to your ask when I very clearly did.

As mentioned in the ask I sent you, you can expect delays from my side. It is what it is. But I have read those other posts about my reply and seen your comments. Since you didn't reply to the original thread and because it was getting long, I will reply here in response to this ask where you did reply, as well as talk about this ask as well.

What do you mean I didn't reply to the original thread? Even in the link you provided, it clearly shows me responding to you at the bottom, explaining why I couldn't give a proper response, and asking you to change the formatting so that I can. I don't know where you're getting the idea that I'm not responding to you because in both instances where you've levied this false claim, I proved that I very much did respond to you, so what are you talking about?

How can you say we don't live in a homophobic society when hate crimes are rampant to this day even in countries that are even seen as more accepting towards homosexuality and where it isn't illegal? Homosexual marriages are still illegal in many countries. Being gay is call for the death penalty for some. Go educate yourself on Japanese society specifically it is just a Google search away because acceptance in the general public is still a long ways off. Your statement is so ignorant I can't believe you actually said that. Whether or not we live in a homophobic society is not dependent on the allowance of gay media.

Maybe you live in a homophobic society, but I don't. And guess what? None of what you said has any bearing on Kishimoto's ability and freedom to include a homosexual relationship in his work of fiction. You kept on saying how Naruto and Sasuke were forced to marry their wives due to all these non-existent "societal pressures", you kept on going on about how Kishimoto couldn't canonise them due to the homophobic society that we live in. And yet, when I ask you to explicitly prove that Naruto and Sasuke married women due to these so called societal pressures, you don't say shit. When I ask you to explicitly prove that Kishimoto apparently wasn't allowed to make Naruto and Sasuke a thing due to the apparent rampant homophobia in our society, you couldn't say shit. Don't make these utterly empty claims if you don't have the facts to back them up.

Gay media exists yes, within their specific genre. Naruto is a Shonen manga in Shonen Jump. Naruto is also the main character of that Shonen manga. It is not marketed under Shonen Ai or Yaoi or even Seinen for that matter. I have given you an explicit example of where Kishimoto had to argue to include the Reverse Harem No Jutsu into his manga for years. Why? Because it was gay. There was no argument for including the Normal Version. This is an example of Kishimoto being bound by pressure from his editors yet where he still held true and argued for years to included it.

Completely false.

Firstly, as I have stated, there are loads of examples of homosexual characters, feelings and relationships in mangas and light novels not marketed under Shonen Ai, Yaoi, Shoujo Ai or Yuri. Just off the top of my head, such feelings and characters are present in:

Yu Yu Hakusho

Cardcaptor Sakura

Fullmetal Alchemist

Revolutionary Girl Utena

Code Geass

The Monogatari Series

Future Diary

Kiznaiver

Even hugely popular and mainstream shows like Dragon Ball and Sailor Moon, featured openly homosexual characters and themes, and none of those shows were marketed under the Shonen Ai, Yaoi, Shoujo Ai or Yuri genres. Naruto being a Shonen manga in Shonen Jump doesn't mean shit, as proven above.

Secondly, your example with the Reverse Harem Jutsu is null and void. You claim that Kishi apparently fought to include that in the manga for years, and used the below screenshot as evidence:

However, why would he need to apparently "fight" to get that approved, when he had already included the below scene in the manga long before that point?

The Sexy Boy on Boy Technique that Konohamaru utilised during chapter 347, was far more graphic and overtly sexual than what Naruto produced during chapter 682:

And you people really think that Kishimoto had to fight to include the latter, despite the fact that the former (which is a lot more sexual) was already included? Make it make sense, goodness gracious.

Considering Naruto's target audience how receptive do you think their target audience and everyone else all over the world would be to an openly gay protagonist where Naruto and Sasuke got married at the end, in a country like Japan where homosexuality is not fully accepted by the general public and for a Shonen Jump magazine? Which is why Kishimoto had to veil the gayness under gags, parallels, outside influence, romantic and gay storytelling too. He was successful with it to the point so many people picked up on it and noticed.

Well considering all of the examples I gave previously, Kishimoto didn't have to "veil" anything, because Naruto and Sasuke or not gay. I have already explicitly proven that there were no societal pressures holding Kishimoto back from including any homosexual feelings and relationships if he wanted to. Furthermore, if he had the intention of making the story all about Naruto and Sasuke's apparent gay love for each other, then he wouldn't have selected this target audience to begin with, but that was never his intention, it's as simple as that.

Even people who don't care about shipping today on other social media platforms joke about Naruto and Sasuke's gayness. Or talk about how uncomfortable it makes them because friendship is not hard to understand. When was the last time you asked your "friend" or "brother" to describe what friendship means to them?

That question often gets asked by someone who has suffered through trauma, and is in the process of healing, just like Sasuke, and just like Shouya from A Silent Voice in the example below:

So again, your point falls flat.

But you want in-canon evidence of homophobia? There is. Tayuya called Shikamaru and the rest a bunch of homos because they were chasing after a guy. That's a slur. A condemnation of homosexuals if you need it clearly spelled out. Jiraiya very loudly and with disgust said he does not like men to Naruto's face. Sakura even thought how gross it was that two men were doing a piggy back ride. So maybe you forgot about this or it flew over you head completely? I wonder why that is? Given that you claim we do not live in a homophobic society I have some thoughts myself…

Your example with Tayuya once again falls flat because that was an incorrect translation. The official English translation is below:

And she doesn't specify the person's gender, nor does she make any homosexual slurs. So no, there was no "condemnation of homosexuals" here. I also see nothing wrong with Jiraiya clarifying that he doesn't like men, and Sakura didn't say how "gross" it was that two men were doing a piggyback ride. What she said, was how it was weird that they were playing piggyback, because they were grown adults, many people would find that weird:

So as you can plainly see, nothing flew over my head, because the examples you gave of apparent homophobia in the manga, weren't homophobic at all. So if that's the best you can do, that's weak.

In regards to the anon reference to the second kiss were only Kurama was present – the READERS are also present!!! That is such a funny comment to make because that's literally the point. It gets even funnier. Likening homosexuality to drinking which is ACCEPTABLE TO ALL once people are of age, Jiraiya's STRAIGHT porn books, Orochimaru and Hidan being some VILLAINS, do people not see how ridiculous they sound? These things are not comparable. You're right in that there was nothing stopping Kishimoto in writing them gay though because he DID write them gay.

How? What did any of what you just said prove? Who the hell likened homosexuality to drinking? That's not what the Anon did, they simply included examples of things which are not generally acceptable (like being a drunk leader of a nation), they weren't likening homosexuality itself to drinking. And no, he didn't write them as gay. If you're gonna make these weak and empty statements without even trying to explain your point, then don't make them at all because it's a complete waste of time. Naruto and Sasuke were both disgusted after accidentally kissing each other, Naruto harbored a heterosexual crush on Sakura for the majority of the manga, both Naruto and Sasuke married and had children with the opposite sex - all heterosexual behaviour - and you're here claiming that Kishimoto wrote them as gay? And you're really saying that other people don't see how ridiculous they sound? Wow, the irony is immeasurable.

It's not that I know Kishimoto personally. I never said that. But I can look at the work he created, at the canon manga, and pick up on what he wrote. Even in school for English classes students are encouraged to analyze the text, consider the context of the time the work was written it, the place and time, the author, wider references, so on and so forth. Isn't this what you did in school…

Yes it was, and so when considering what we both did in school, I'm shocked that you can't even grasp something so fundamentally basic as two boys accidentally kissing, being completely disgusted by it, and likening it to literal poison, as very clear and simple evidence of their heterosexuality. It boggles the friggin' mind.

Author intent is important. But let's look at this another way. Pretend you are in Kishi's shoes. Now let's also think about another famous work which includes the depiction of a romantic suicide in the West. Does one come to mind? How about Romeo and Juliet? You as a writer are writing a story and reference Shakespeare throughout your story and also make notes of it. You have a character at the beginning of the arc say something along the lines of: If person A dies I will poison myself and die along with them because I love them. And then you make Character B propose to character C that they will die together so they can be together in the next life. Do you see how ridiculous it is for Kishi to not know what he was doing? You are insulting his intelligence if you think his referencing of Chikamatsu who is known for his romantic suicide plays was not done on purpose.

For all your earlier talk about analyzing context, you don't seem to be very adept at doing that. I'll repeat myself once again - just because one person says or does something in a romantic context, that doesn't automatically mean that when another character does or says the same thing, it's also in a romantic context. Why? Because the nature of their relationship is important. Naruto and Sasuke were not in a romantic relationship, they had no romantic undertones to their relationship, and they weren't even talking about committing suicide together, so don't even try to spin this in that context because that's not what Naruto was saying. He said to Sasuke that if the latter attacked the leaf, Naruto would be forced to fight him, in which case, they would both die. By no means does that equate to a romantic double suicide as seen in Romeo and Juliet - This wasn't a double suicide because the characters loved each other and couldn't be apart from one another, this was two people killing each other because one person wanted to destroy the village and the other person insisted on getting in his way, that's what that was, and there was absolutely nothing romantic about that.

I'm not insulting Kishimoto's intelligence, the only thing I'm doing is acknowledging his own words on the matter. All you can do is to constantly rely on your flimsy theories and guesswork because you can't actually prove anything. Whereas I have the words which came directly from the horse's mouth. Kishimoto himself said that a NaruHina endgame had been decided from very early on, and only considered Sakura as another option, another girl, another heterosexual relationship for Naruto. Therefore, a Naruto x Sasuke relationship was never even considered:

You have vague theories, and I have direct words from the man himself. Guess which holds more weight?

You agree that they are similar and the fact that you viewed Hinata's as romantic is because she explicitly stated her feelings for Naruto beforehand – that’s what I mean! The feelings between Naruto and Sasuke cannot be explicitly stated.

Firstly, Hinata did not explicitly state her feelings beforehand. They were simply very obvious for readers to ascertain from her body language when around Naruto, and her very overt and affectionate thoughts about him, and Naruto exhibited no such indicators towards Sasuke. Hinata's confession against Pain was the first time she outright explicitly stated her feelings.

Secondly, you claim how the feelings between Naruto and Sasuke cannot be explicitly stated? Yes they most defiantly can, there is literally nothing preventing Kishimoto from explicitly stating the feelings between Naruto and Sasuke. I have consistently asked you to provide concrete evidence of what exactly was preventing Kishimoto from doing so, and you have consistently failed to provide anything. You spout empty words regarding non-existent "societal pressures" which you can't prove because they don't exist. Don't bring up an argument which relies on claims which you can't prove.

You say a hug in one context can be romantic but not romantic in another context. So, even leaving aside the outside references for now because you really don't like them even though I have pointed out how they were used in the manga and from Kishi's notes (Chikamatsu) ask yourself: Why would Kishi feel the need to parallel Hinata's confession and Sakura's confessions to Naruto and Sasuke both times? If he was writing Naruto and Sasuke platonically, why did he make them so similar to the explicitly romantic ones? It was not a one off event that you could chalk up to coincidence perhaps. This is where author intent comes in again. People pick up on this choices of writing. People pick up on the meaning conveyed behind these choices. It's not hard to grasp. It's not simply "What you see is what you get." Just because you don't want to see or it or think about it that deeply doesn't mean it's not there, as seen from the examples I have given.

You see what you're doing there? Asking "why would Kishi do this?", "why would Kishi do that?". You know what that is? Theorising, possibilities, and guesswork, something which you've had no choice but to rely on for literally the entirety of our discourse, because you have nothing concrete. I can say "who knows why Kishi chose to parallel them", and the theory I would make would be just as credible as yours, because I wouldn't be able to prove my theory any more than you can. So let me reiterate - If you can't back up your claims with concrete evidence that you can actually prove in order to support the basis of your argument, then you've already lost. I mean, you talk about "author intent", and yet you can't highlight anything that Kishimoto has actually said, which would prove that his intent supports your argument. But me? I already linked Kishimoto stating his intention for NH from a very early stage, and here is yet another example, where he explicitly reiterated how a NH endgame was decided from considerably beforehand, but also how at one point he considered a NaruSaku endgame, but ultimately decided against it. Notice how he has never once said or even remotely implied anything regarding the slightest possibility of a SNS endgame. Why? Because that was never even considered, because they're not gay. Therefore, authorial intent is on my side, since I can actually prove it because I have his actual words. What do you have? Your theories and your guesswork which you can't prove, as per usual.

Now onto Kakashi. Kakashi is a very unreliable person when it comes to Sakura. If a character says something, do you automatically believe it because they say it? Or do you think about whether what they say is a lie or a truth based on the events in the story? Or are you also standing firm on "What you see is what you get" since you were in agreement with that anon?

The very fact that you even asked that question already tells me that no matter how much something is explained to you, no matter how explicit it is, you will still deny it and would rather rely on theories and guesswork instead of what is blatantly stated. And you think that asking that question actually helped your case? Wow.

For example, he said: Sakura never wanted to make you hers!

That is incorrect. That is Sakura's goal. From her first appearance she wants to steal Sasuke's first kiss from him. When she was asked by Kakashi himself about her goals, all of the positive ones had to do with Sasuke! From her very first confession she told Sasuke revenge won't make him happy or HER happy, and that she would be willing to abandon Konoha and go with him so she could be with him. Because she wants to make her his.

Firstly, Kakashi did not say that Sakura never wanted to make him hers. What he said is that she wasn't trying or wanting to make him hers, and he was speaking in the present tense:

And that was something he had elaborated on earlier. Because while Sakura may have started out wanting to make Sasuke hers, her feelings changed from back then, which is absolutely correct:

You mention her first confession, which doesn't help your case either. She was in tears because she wanted to understand Sasuke better and his situation more, but felt as though he wouldn't let her in:

And she indicates that she wanted things to return to the days when they were all smiling and having fun. Therefore, she wanted Sasuke to return to smiling and having fun:

So how exactly did you get "Because she wants to make her his" from that? That's you once again just making a completely empty claim with no explanation and no evidence. There was literally nothing from that scene which indicated that Sakura wanted nothing more than to simply make Sasuke hers.

At the second confession, not much changed. Sakura cries about how pitiful she is (at least Kakashi is right about the constant crying) and that if there is even a bit of affection in Sasuke's heart for her he would reconsider his plan of revolution – because she wants to go back to how things were in team 7 when he at least indulged her.

"When he at least indulged her"? Do you see how you constantly just add complete nonsense to your claims in order to conveniently suit your agenda? And then don't even try to back them up because you know you can't? What has Sasuke "indulging" Sakura have anything to do with what she said? She wants to go back to how things used to be in Team 7 because they were all happy and laughing together, and that's what she wants for Sasuke - to be happy again, as was explicitly shown during her first confession as I proved above. As was explicitly shown following their reunion in the Land of Iron where Sakura very clearly states this herself:

So don't even try me with that nonsense about how all she apparently cared about was making Sasuke hers and having him "indulge" her, because I've just proven that to be factually incorrect, and how Kakashi's words were indeed accurate.

She lives in the past, Sasuke even said as much. She also even wanted to come along Sasuke's journey at the end because her goal is to get with Sasuke. Karin even said in Gaiden that Sakura CHASED Sasuke while he was traveling. Making Sasuke hers, that want, is a defining character trait from start to end. How can you fail to see that is her prerogative?

Because as I've already proven above, that wasn't what she wanted from start to end. Funny how you also conveniently pick and choose when to take a character's words as truth in order to suit your agenda, funny that. Sakura wanted to make Sasuke hers at the beginning, then during the main story, that changed (just like Kakashi stated) to wanting to save him from the darkness. Then once he had been saved, she then wanted to pursue a relationship again. You're the one who is failing to acknowledge what has plainly been stated to you over and over again.

Also the fact remains that Sasuke says he sees no reason for her love. Kakashi says there needs not be reason and that she suffers from loving him. Yet who actually gave a reason for their feelings in the form of suffering? Naruto.

That doesn't disprove Kakashi's statement of love not needing a reason. Since you love relying on outside works that have nothing to do with Naruto so much, would you like me to take a page out of your book and list several examples from other mangas of characters explicitly stating something along the lines of love not needing a reason? Because Sakura is not alone on this.

Kakashi also said: She never gave up on you!

Which is also incorrect. How has he forgotten Sakura's grand plan of killing Sasuke? She planned it out and drugged her teammates on enemy land. Her intention was to kill Sasuke. Sasuke also spoke about this topic himself and said the only one who never gave up on him was Naruto. Not Naruto AND Sakura. This is coming from Sasuke himself!

What Kakashi actually said, was that Sakura always just wanted to save Sasuke, which is correct:

And even during her attempt to kill him (which she failed to do because deep down she hadn't actually given up on Sasuke and still thought that he could be saved), the feelings behind her actions were still very much with the intent of saving Sasuke from the path of darkness, as Sai explicitly stated:

Or are you now going to tell me that Sai's words can't be trusted either? Good lord. Sasuke claimed that Naruto was the only one who never attempted to cut him off, which is true. Sakura attempted but failed because she knew deep down that Sasuke could still be saved.

Naruto said he hates people who lie to themselves.

Yes because he was frustrated at Sakura for lying to herself – but also at himself too. During the Kage Summit Arc Naruto did a lot of thinking. He was shown moping and rolling around on the floor thinking of Sasuke. Then he says he hates people who hate to themselves. Then later on the Kage Summit Arc he was able to be honest about his feelings for Sasuke in a way he hadn't been before. Naruto was able to express what he'd hidden all that time. That he'd wanted to be friends all along but due to jealousy he made him his rival instead. He is exposing the lie he had told himself here:

That is so weak, my god.

"He was frustrated at Sakura for lying to herself – but also at himself too" - That is a complete farce, and the example you gave in no way proved it. Naruto never exposed a "lie" to himself because he never lied to himself about Sasuke in the first place. The reach here is actually insane, Naruto was just telling Sasuke things that he already knew and acknowledged, but Sasuke didn't. How anyone can look at that scene, and reach the conclusion that Naruto was angry at himself for lying is beyond me. Seriously, you couldn't refute what the Anon was saying about Naruto being mad that Sakura was lying to herself, and so this was the best come back you could formulate?

This is also further seen in the War Arc, where Naruto's emotions and feelings flood through everyone. He expressed regret saying he wished he had called out to Sasuke and became friend. Probably thinking things would've been different. No doubt Naruto harbors guilt and "what ifs" about his situation, wishing he hadn't been lying to himself and to Sasuke. Becuase maybe if he'd reached out as a friend instead of a rival things would not have turned out that way. He calls it a regret and everyone was witness to that. Do I need to talk you all through every single scene? Scenes, phrases, words are all interconnected. Resolution does not happen so simply. It is a process of going through the story. That is what a good storyteller does. A good reader can also make the necessary connections.

And yet, none of that in any way indicates that Naruto lied to himself about anything, and you saying how Naruto was apparently "wishing he hadn't been lying to himself and to Sasuke" doesn't make it true, so good job on completely wasting that paragraph.

I don't even know why you went on to talk about Boruto because that has nothing to do with anything, and no one mentioned the voice actors in relation to Boruto, so you just again typed a bunch of completely irrelevant drivel which I really have no need to address.

The story of Naruto and Sasuke is them hiding their feelings from each other

Goodness gracious, I honestly have no words... After seeing you say that, I've suddenly lost the will to continue this discourse. This is just epitome of someone reading through their gay goggles.

Questioning their relationship. Other characters also question their relationship, all the way until the resolution that happens at the Valley of the End.

Other characters didn't question their relationship. And all Naruto and Sasuke themselves did, was Sasuke asking why Naruto keeps butting into his business, and Naruto answering "because I'm your friend", that's the extent of it.

The Sage called it a battle of Love because it was.

For goodness sake that's not what the Sage said, so stop twisting the characters' words to suit your agenda because I'm not having any of it. What the Sage said, was how the current Sasuke was molded due to the loss of the love from his past, the familial and platonic love from his family, and how that love turned to hate:

That's a fact because that is literally the only love that Sasuke had from his past. This idea was earlier referenced by Tobirama:

So that's why Hagoromo said that he hoped that the hate could be transformed back into love, so that Sasuke could regain the lost platonic love that had been transformed into hate. There was no romantic love referenced:

So don't try and say how Hagoromo apparently described it as "a battle of love" in order make it seem like something that it wasn't, because he said no such thing.

Well they were written romantically. You do not need to like the pairing and I'm not telling you to stop shipping your preferred ships. But you cannot not acknowledge that Naruto and Sasuke were written romantically.

No they weren't written romantically, you have not proved otherwise because all you can literally do is rely in theories and guesswork, and all you can ever say in response to my points are to reference these non-existent societal pressures which apparently forced Kishimoto to canonise the ships that he did, all things which you cannot prove.

I had to Google who Deepa was and imagine my surprise (but not really) when it's just Boruto anime only. Quite hypocritical considering you say to use a manga but you use Boruto filler to back up your arguments. There is a reason Itachi told Sasuke to kill his closest friend and not go on a rigourous traning regime to develop his Sharingan further. If you look at the timepoint Sasuke develops it, it was in response to Naruto opening up to him emotionally as well.

You wanna call me hypocritical? Why are you even mentioning Boruto to back up any of your claims, when you were the one who described it as nothing more than a "cash grab"? Why are you even mentioning Boruto when you were the one urging people to "see Boruto for what it is"? Clearly, Boruto is hot garbage to you and means nothing, so why are you using it to try and prove one of your points now?

Also, you mention how "there is a reason Itachi told Sasuke to kill his closest friend and not go on a rigorous training regime to develop his Sharingan further", but what Itachi told Sasuke to do was specifically for him to awaken the Mangekyou Sharingan. That was not with regards to simply developing the Sharingan in terms of the number of tomoe that are present in the design, which was what we were discussing, so your point doesn't even have any relevance to the argument that I was making.

Also, Naruto IS Sasuke's most important person. Sasuke said it to the Sage – he feels alone with Itachi gone, but he needs to kill Naruto to feel truly alone because he's his closest friend. Only Naruto. It is not matter of only Naruto being able to fight Sasuke. It is that Naruto is Sasuke's one and only friend and standing in the way of him being able to be completely emotionless to enact his plan.

Honestly… the text is there. You're spreading misinformation and people believe you. Also don't worry when I'm done with this discourse I'll let you know. I know you need things… explicitly stated.

I'm spreading misinformation, lol, okay. Let me quote what I said because you seem to have a problem with putting words into people's mouths. During this post, I said, and I quote - "I have always acknowledged that Sasuke shared a deeper bond with Naruto during the main story. However, my main argument was always that this does not mean that he didn't care for Sakura, as you extremists always try to claim, because that is factually incorrect, and I have proven this to be factually incorrect countless times already.

Now what you need to acknowledge, is the fact that just because Naruto was his closest bond back then, does not mean this is still the case now. Sasuke has a family, he has a wife and daughter".

So now you tell me, do you honestly believe that nothing has changed for Sasuke during the 15 year period between chapters 699-700? Do you honestly believe that despite having family now, that Sasuke would prioritise Naruto over his own wife and even his own fucking daughter? Depending on your answer to that question, I'll know whether or not to further entertain this discourse.

funny how that sns shipper gave you evidence of naruto’s romantic feelings with manga panels and you still didn’t answer because you have NO comeback

Really? So you clearly stalk my blog and yet you still think that I say things without being able to back them up? Anon, I explicitly told that person why I literally couldn't respond to them, and I then asked them very clearly to reformat their reply so that I could respond, but they haven't done so. But since you're anonymously claiming that I didn't respond because I apparently had no response...

Here's a big proverbial middle finger to you.

They tried to use the similar words that Naruto and Hinata used towards Sasuke and Naruto respectively, in order to infer that there were definitely romantic feelings on Naruto's side towards Sasuke, just because there were romantic feelings on Hinata's side towards Naruto. They used the below panels to help illustrate their point:

Here's the problem with that though, and it links in with the definition of a romantic moment that I gave to them, which they tried to use, but it backfired, because it only proved my point:

A romantic moment, is when the romantic feelings of at least one party of the relationship is brought to the forefront and made into a key aspect of the scene, which also usually includes a measure of affection displayed, I can list several SS scenes which fit that description, and none for SNS, because they don't exist.

For it to be a romantic moment, the romantic feelings of at least one party either had to have already been established, or confirmed during the scene. If Hinata's romantic feelings hadn't already been established, and she didn't end her speech with her explicitly confessing, then no, it wouldn't have been a romantic moment. What made the moment romantic, is because the reader was already aware of the romantic feelings Hinata had for Naruto. Therefore, even if she hadn't directly said "I love you" at the end, it still would have been a romantic moment, because her romantic feelings had already been confirmed and established as part of their dynamic.

They tried doing the same thing here using the below panels, but this argument obviously suffers from the same problems.

Firstly, that person said "the things that Kakashi says about Sakura are actually about Naruto", but that's not true at all. Kakashi was very clearly referring to Sakura there, and what he was saying about Sakura was the truth:

Just because those things may also apply to Naruto does not mean that Kakashi was actually referring to Naruto. You can't just forcibly change who a character was referencing in order to suit your agenda.

Secondly, that person actually claimed how Naruto and Sasuke were apparently trying to explain what they mean to each other "in a homophobic society", and can you not see how fucking desperate that is? They're claiming that the Naruto universe is homophobic, but where the hell are they getting that from? Where was it ever even slightly indicated that their universe is homophobic? They made a similar comment earlier regarding how Naruto and Sasuke were "forced" to marry women due to "societal pressures", and when I asked them to provide just one example of these apparent societal pressures, they completely ignored me. Why? Because they couldn't say shit about it, because they completely pulled that out of their ass. But do you give them shit about that? No of course you don't. But when I actually give a legitimate reason for me not being able to respond to them, and even give them the opportunity to fix their formatting so that I can respond, you choose to have a go at me and claim that I had nothing to say, typical.

I'm going off on a tangent now, so let me bring it back to my original point - If no romantic feelings or dynamic had been established between two people, then their words can't automatically be taken as romantic just because they were similar to someone else's words which were said in a romantic context, and the dynamic of their relationship had already been established as being romantic.

Again, I had made this point many times to this person but they always ignored it - context matters. So allow me to reiterate the below point that I had made to them multiple times, which they also conveniently ignored multiple times (which you once again, let them off the hook for, funny that):

It is the feelings, incentives and context behind the actions which dictate the romantic undertones, not the actions themselves. Two platonic best friends could be hugging in one scene, while two lovers were hugging in another scene, and the hug from the second scene would be romantic while the hug from the first scene wouldn’t be, despite the actions from both scenes being exactly the same.”

And that can directly be used to refute their entire argument of how just because Naruto used similar words, it must mean that similar romantic feelings were involved - That's not true, because the context and dynamics of their relationships couldn't have been more different. Just like the example I used above regarding how the same action of a hug can be romantic or platonic depending on the context and dynamics of the relationship involved, the same can be said for words and phrases.

I'll give you another example - Someone can say they chased after their idol (for the context of achieving their dream), and it would be completely platonic because that's the nature of their established relationship. However, if someone says the same thing to the object of their romantic affection, then that clearly has different connotations and has obvious romantic undertones, because the reader is fully aware of that person's explicitly romantic feelings.

Naruto and Sasuke had no such feelings, no such dynamic, no such context. So therefore, Naruto's words were not romantic because they lacked the required feelings, context, dynamic and incentives.

Oh, and there's also obviously this:

I still can't believe that people will take a scene of two boys literally gagging because they were so disgusted after having accidentally kissed, and try to spin that as a romantic scene and claim that they are gay for each other, while blaming the non-existent homophobic society. Seriously, SNS extremists are truly something else to be able to think they're in any position to be calling other people delusional.

71 notes · View notes