#yes yes she was also a victim of ozais abuse

[umalvie]

as i said while discussing iroh as a character, despite the comics being a mess, i feel confident saying that at the end of atla, zuko not only realizes that azula has been harmed too, but he rightfully blames ozai for that harm (although ozai is not solely responsible for traumatizing azula).

as big of a win as that is for the possibility of the fire hazard siblings healing their relationship (zuko absolutely has to take the first step there in my opinon; azula would not be willing to at this point, and their relationship has been unbalanced in terms of care historically), their relationship is still quite tragic even with this realization.

there is no way that zuko actually understands what ozai did to azula. he doesn't even know what ozai did to azula. yes, he knows that ozai abused azula, but zuko only understands and knows abuse as he endured it.

there's also almost no way that azula is going to tell zuko about it. not only would she not want to discuss something so vulnerable in a serious or honest manner (see the way she discusses ursa in the beach), but she's also just had a serious psychotic break. it's very possible that she's not fit to see zuko at all right now, let alone discuss her trauma with him even if she wanted to.

so zuko is left to fill in the blanks about the how of azula's trauma. given his pattern of relating other people's trauma to his even when it's not actually the same (i.e. how he relates katara's trauma about kya being killed during the fire nation's genocide against her culture to his own trauma about ursa's disappearance after committing high treason), he would come to understand and conceive of how ozai abused azula through his own experience with ozai's abuse. while zuko's abuse was clearly always an implicit threat dangled over azula's head ("you can't treat me like zuko!") and ozai absolutely used some of the same tools against her that he did zuko, zuko was ozai's scapegoat child while azula was his golden child. their abuse did not look the same, it did not function the same, and it did not impact them the same.

it's also unlikely that he has the perspective at this stage in his own healing process to apply any of his (false) perceptions of azula's trauma to how it would have shaped both their childhood and his perspective of azula. he probably doesn't even realize just how deeply his perspective of her is colored by ozai's abuse of them both.

furthermore, since he's accepted his recollection of their childhood (which is not his fault. he is a victim of abuse who did not have the means or opportunity, as a young child, to see beyond ozai's more obvious abuse of him, which he couldn't even admit, to notice ozai's more subtle abuse of azula), he likely can only conceive of azula's childhood trauma in two ways:

as the byproduct of his own trauma, existing not because of azula's own traumatic childhood experiences but because of her witnessing his, such as the agni kai

as the product of his exile, occurring because he was no longer physically there for ozai to abuse and thus had to find a new target in azula

the former seems less probable given his belief that azula enjoyed his pain when they were children, so he would likely think that she was abused not when they were younger but exclusively after his exile began.

this isn't even touching on how zuko's perception of ursa and iroh clouds his ability to see how they both harmed azula too. that muddles things a lot more since zuko struggles with black and white thinking.

i think azula and zuko could heal their relationship with time and mutual effort, but as long as she refuses to confide in her brother and as long as he assumes she should experience and respond to trauma the same way he has, they're doomed to remain static in relation to each other.

[the-badger-mole]

You know what's interesting to me? How many people seem to think that Iroh owed Azula what he gave to Zuko. As if he could have stopped Azula's spiral somehow. Azula had been out of reach of everyone since she was a very young child, and she embraced it! She was Ozai's favorite, and she was proud of that. The tragedy of Azula isn't just that she was a victim of Ozai's golden-childism, it was also that her own hubris didn't let her see that the way she operated was a problem. Zuko's saving grace, aside from being rejected by Ozai, was his natural capacity for empathy. Something that Azula didn't have (which, btw, was not necessarily a fault. A lot of people aren't born naturally empathetic. It's something many people have to learn, but Azula never even tried to learn).

With Zuko, Iroh had something to work with. Despite his anger and hardheadedness, Zuko's nature wasn't to be ruthless. Yes, Iroh was a protective, guiding presence when Zuko needed it, but the foundation was already there. Still, had Ozai decided to keep his son at his side and raise him like he raised Azula, there is little Iroh would've been able to do for either of them. Not only was Ozai their father, he was also the most powerful man in the nation. There was no getting CPS involved. There was no calling Ozai out for his abuse and favoritism. The best Iroh could've done was stay close and tried to do what he could to counteract Ozai's influence. Which, to be clear, would've probably been even less than Ursa was able to. He couldn't even stop Ozai from burning Zuko, and had he not been banished, Ozai probably would've killed him eventually. The only reason Iroh was able to help Zuko was because Ozai had thrown him away.

Another thing is that Zuko made different choices than his sister. Azula's choices are what take her from an abuse victim who needed saving to a villain whose tragic backstory won't stop her from deep frying anyone who stands in her way. One of the biggest criticisms I see of Iroh was that he said that Azula was "crazy and needed to go down", forgetting the context that she had just nearly succeeded in killing him, and that she had tried to kill Zuko just a few episodes earlier. Iroh wasn't there when she threatened her crew with death if they didn't sail their ship through dangerous waters, but the audience saw and did have that context when Iroh said that. If there was ever a chance for Azula to change, it would have to begin with her wanting to change. She had people she could've practiced empathy with. She had people who would've loved her if she gave them half a chance. She had people she could've practiced empathy with. No, she didn't choose to be Ozai's golden child, and she wasn't in any way responsible for his abuse, but she was responsible for how she treated others. Iroh had no chance of helping her because she didn't want it.

[punkeropercyjackson]

I'm pretty sure Atla being Aang's story and never about Zutara is just.......kinda what Atla about instead of making it a bad story lol!Like it's called 'Avatar:The Last Airbender' and the 2nd part refers to Aang being the sole survivor of a genocide which like the characters is based on the real genocide that happens to Tibet,Aang's people,by China.The Water Tribe gang are also genocide survivors because they're native-coded and the Fire Nation is an imperialist empire because it's based on Japan when it was

So Aang's the protagonist because it's about poc trauma and potraying etchnic cleansing survivors as the victims they are but also humanizing them and showing them as heroes and capable of saving the world that tried to wipe them all out!Aang is the good guy because he goes out of way to help everybody,with activism AND direct action and in the comics,he kickstarted decolonization and arguably counts as the inventor of in his world.Atla was created to radicalize the kids watching it and while it's not perfect(see the demonization of Jet and Hama and asskissing of Iroh),Aang is undoubtedly a great role model and relatable to kids of color as well as asian people who come from lesser known asian cultures that're happy to finally get some rep that's not just easian characters

On the topic of Katara,not sorry at all but she's never been meant to be 'the universal female experience' or some other radf.em-adjacent caricature.Yes,she's a girl and it's really important to her she's a girl but she wants to be a girl HER way,not what's expected of her by society.Katara is a brown native american-Inuk girl who was parentified despite having an older brother due to sexism and fell for Aang because he helped her feel like a real kid instead of a mini mom and he fell for her at first sight because he found her indigenous features to be angelic and princess-y and all around perfect and Katara is a punk girl,she refuses to follow the rules or conform to standards or hold herself back for ANYONE and never shuts up about it or refuses to stop acting on it so she's canonically an anarchist,she was Aang's righthand in The Gaang and did her own solo anti-imperalist activity on her own too and provided resources and aid and even emotional comfort for oppressed groups all throught the show so she's canonically an activist and she hates the Fire Nation and ALL bigots and abusers,no expections,so she's canonically anti-authority and anti-establishment too.Katara is a feminist character in the sense she's nothing like women are expected to be and does the heroism and has the personality traits which are said to be reserved for men by the patriachy,ESPECIALLY at the time.And yes,Zutaras,you too to this fuckin' day

Zuko's redemption arc was Zuko's redemption arc.Not an arc about finding a way to make it okay for him to date Katara!ZUKO'S REDEMPTION ARC IS ABOUT ZUKO!Not even Mai had a huge hand in that despite being Zuko's canon girlfriend but that's not because 'she wasn't important to him',it's because he didn't do anything he had to redeem himself for to her except breaking up with her in a petty way so he could work on healing and free himself from Ozai and she understood that by connecting the dots so she forgave him as she gets what it's like to have your parents abuse you because it's 'normal' in their culture-easian culture.Zuko is fundamentally a japanese man,his name,his design,his backstory,his personality,his powers/fighting style,his tastes,his generational trauma.Ozai abused Zuko using techniques created by abusive easian parents specifically since sadly the normalization of child abuse is so wide,different cultures each have their own unique tactics for it and Zuko thought nothing of it until he left the Fire Nation and learned it's not normal at all and that he deserves better.That's how it works for a lot of kids of color,if not most of us

In addition to the giving reperations aspect,Zuko becoming Aang's big brother figure and pseudo-dad is him healing his inner child and breaking the cycle of abuse.Dadko symbolizes peace with their dynamic too,peace for Zuko's lineage because now he gets to be the good dad to Aang Ozai never was to him and grew up to be a good biodad to Izumi largely realistically thanks to Aang giving him experience with raising kids.Zuko's dad friend behavior is a positive trait,'Mom'tara is silencing Katara for your male fave so she can be realize she's not a real kid actually,Aang was wrong and she's not actually beautiful,kind,cool,funny,charming,badass,a hero and deserving of a soft love with someone who's patient with her because he's just happy to her in silence until he thought he'd have to die to save the world and couldn't bear the thought of parting with her because she's his whole world just as he gave her hope she could grow up to save it.And y'all call him a r*pist because they were mutually unspokenly flirting for months and she got angry at him for implying they shouldn't kiss followed up by an implied almost kiss and multiple cheek kisses from her to him so he thought to make up for it out of misreading the room and immediately regretted it and berated himself for making her uncomfortable at the same time an EXPLICITLY non-consensual on her side episode where Zuko kidnaps her,talks badly to/of her,threatens her condesendingly and even steals Kya's necklace is what gave Zutara popularity

Atla is one of the best pg show's of all time because it's not about Zutara but about Aang.Not about cishet romance where the oppressed girl falls for her boy oppressor as it has the 'undesirable' race boy the villain.Then it would've been propaganda and glamorization of Japan's darker history as during Japan's imperialist era,women were treated pretty similarly to black people in the slavery/segregations and i'm making that comparison because as a black woman 1.It's pretty accurate and 2.Zutradras have a misogynoir problem and an antiblackness problem towards black men too by treating black girls as the same white girls like how they do Katara as a brown indigenous girl and moc Atla fans are targeted by the white Z/K suckers on the basis of being 'males' when white women inherently have privilege over moc,black and brown men most of all.They got a transmisogyny problem too since as i stated,their 'feminism' in regards to Katara is ciscentric only and carry r.adfem-like rethoric to how she should be written,plus their hatred of Aang for 'not being a real man' since they see him as amab and he's canonically very feminine and then there's all the anti-trans Zuko headcanons sentiments that only come from them with literally every other Atla ship group being supportive of trans readings of him,as well as for the Avatarverse cast in general.Atla is a love letter to misfits,not a love story for the normies.Aang was right to keep the Air Nomads alive by not killing Ozai because poc shouldn't have to give up our culture to be 'real punks' when punk is black made and whites and westerners are very much the biggest reasons we and other poc we even need revolutions

Kataang is a ship between two punk kids of color and Zutara robs countless abused japanese/asian-american kids of the narrative they needed and still need.The Atla fandom is extremely anti Zutara because it's a papable replacement for a very powerful story that only caters to the very people the series was saying are bad for correct and proven reasons.You can say 'interracial relathionships are so important and that's why should've Zutara happened!!!' but as a black/white biracial woman you're no different than people who only like interracial ships if they have a white person and get mad at poc4poc interracial rep seeing as you whitewash Zuko's writing and you can also say 'No girl would choose Aang over Zuko' but i had a huge crush on Aang and i was told i wasn't a real girl despite being afab because i was an autistic black tomboy and a huge part of his appeal was that he's not the fantasy,he was like me and plenty of girls weren't attracted to Zuko and it's enforcing cisheteronormative to act like we all did just because we're women.Hell,i'm convinced Katara is trans because of her relathionship with girlhood and canon punkhood and bi with a preference for gnc partners because of Kataang and the Katoph subtext and curiously enough NO Zutara shipper who's anti Kataang headcanons her as transfem while most Kataangers nowadays follow the t4t take on it and almost every lesbian i've met in the fandom stans it too and mocks Zutara

Avatar:The Last Airbender is about a tibetan boy who saves himself and everyone else from the system that tried to wipe his people out entierly with the help of a parentified brown native femme punk girl he's in love with and her in love with him back for his own unconventionality and the reason the mc even survived properly was she didn't stand for her older brother's misogyny and the tritagonist is a japanese disabled abuse survivor who's redemptic arc and joining of the good guys is a healing arc that involves holding himself accountable and unlearning propaganda and ACTING on it instead of infantalizing him because he may have been 16 at the the time but literally everyone he'd hurt is younger than him and coddling and refusing to progress isn't actual healing.'Aang is an ugly loser because he shaves his head for cultural reasons and is kind and positive and boys aren't supposed to be if they wanna get girls and Katara should've ended up with Zuko to fix the nation that colonized hers by becoming it's leader and living there and Zuko's arc was ruined because he didn't become a good person for romance but for himself and to make friends' is NOT the hot take you think it is

[atla-confessions]

On the victim blaming of Ursa debate.

If a woman is forced to have children and then raise those children she is a victim in that situation. She is a victim in the fact there is no proof she wanted to have Ozai's children.

No offense but Azula's stans consistently labeling criticism of Azula as misogynistic while having no empathy for difficulty and trauma Ursa was experiencing as a abused woman stolen from her family is frankly ridiculous. It is victim blaming when you hold a abuse victim to such a high standard of behavior. Most (if not all) of the things she did wrong would not have occurred without Ozai's abuse.

We see what kinda of parent she is without an abuser (and support instead) with Kiyi. And yes, she is (unsurprisingly) far better without Ozai.

Another issue is that a lot of her sins are extrapolations. For example, she 'viewed Azula as a monster' is not something she ever claims on screen. Azula says it. We don't see how she came to this conclusion. We only see Ursa discipline actual bad behavior. The one time we get to see where Azula is when Zuko is hanging out with Ursa is when we see her playing with Mai and Ty Lee. So bad faith: Ursa constantly favored Zuko and actively did things that made Azula think she saw her as a monster and actually did believe Azula was born a monster. Good faith: Ursa spent more time with Zuko because he didn't have friends, Ursa didn't like the same behavior Ozai cultivated and Ozai manipulated a wedge into their relationship when she responded negatively to these behaviors.

You see how the Ursa victim blaming occurs. They (anti Ursas (usually just Azula stans)) treat Azula's feeling of being unloved as only possibly the result of mistreatment from Ursa as opposed to giving any weight to the manipulative abuser. They look at the scene of Ozai saying he will abuse Zuko and it's her fault and think 'yeah, it is,' because she did something antagonistic to her abuser and he punished the child for it. This is arguably victim blaming.

This directs blame away from Ozai towards Ursa. VICTIM BLAMING! If Ozai hurts Zuko to punish Ursa. That is on Ozai. NOT URSA! Even if she did mess up. This is early on, how is she to know how bad Ozai will get?

And, criticism of Ursa isn't inherently victim blaming. She did make mistakes but so many 'ursa critical' or 'anti ursa' posts just end up victim blaming. From attacking her for things that we never have it confirmed she did to blaming her for things Ozai did. For 'failing' to protect them (like she had any power). Overall, yes. Ursa is heavily victim blamed by fandom.

(Also, I do not judge her for choosing to forget, she could not fight the fire nation, she would only suffer. It might not be the most noble decision but one selfish act (after years of trauma) doesn't make a woman worthy of so much derision.)

X

[usernamesuggestionsarefunny]

Possibly unpopular opinion (Or perhaps not idk): I love what they have done with Zuko and Ozai's relationship in the live action Netflix Avatar show.

In the cartoon we never get the ~vibes~ that Zuko has a complicated relationship with his father, only that it is abusive and one-sided in the sense only Zuko craves Ozai's approval, while Ozai straight up hates him, wants him dead or has no problem with him dying (Why doesn't he kill him if he has Azula? We don't know, plot has to happen, he sent Zuko to find the avatar in order to get rid of him, probably, or actually canon idk or remember), clearly prefers Azula to him as successor, etc, etc, etc (+ later the comics literally overkilled this trend "she was born lucky while..." omg stfu). Zuko is basically the perfect character to prove the fire nation is not all evil (Oh look, they hate him too, he is inherently their victim too from the very beginning).

So when Zuko switches sides in the cartoon, what I see as an adult rewatching is someone giving up on luxory, physical safety and... that is pretty much it. Sure it is a big deal to give up on those things to do what is right (Few would) and still awesome that he did the right thing in the end, but if you really think about it, he is not giving up that much, he is not giving up anything truly valuable to him. Respect? Honor? Sure he is said to have received it back after Azula "killed" Aang, but we never truly see it. For all intents and purposes his sister has that and wayyy more of it. His father's love and acceptance? Never had it, so he didn't truly "loose it" when he spoke up for those soldiers, got the scar and was banished, it is not really shown to have suddenly popped into existence when he was said to have killed the avatar. He literally had nothing in the fire nation, literally nothing. This could only make "doing the right thing" a lot easier for him, and for the adult audience (At least for me), his arc is just him realizing what is almost irritatingly obvious for us: That no one in the fire nation truly loves and respects him so might as well switch sides (Basically if we weren't also shown that Zuko is compassionate and does care about the horrible things the fire nation is doing, Ember Island Players would have gotten a bit of truth in it).

Now, in the live action, where do I even start? It has been so good so far when it comes to Ozai and Zuko. That man, if he hated Zuko in a cartoonishly evil way almost from birth, he sure doesn't show it. Don't get me wrong, he is just as abusive (Creepily so in many scenes, made me feel so protective of Zuko and Azula), but he is also shown to "care" about Zuko as in having some hope left that he can mold him into another powerful genocidal mini me. Is Azula winning by far? Ofc, she is still the prodigy, I am sure I am going to see flashbacks of favoritism later on. But Ozai doesn't yet seem to favor her in a way that makes Zuko's craving for his approval (Or even Ozai's hope in him as heir) hopeless. It seems, from his scenes with Azula, that Ozai foments the rivalry and competition between the two siblings not only because he personally thinks Azula is the best (Which he also might in this version), but also as a way of control through fear (Especially for prodigy Azula), and to make them (Especially comparatively weaker Zuko) "better", something this version of Ozai appears to think is possible EVEN when he banishes Zuko. Now, he might have done this "to get rid of him" as in the original, but in the live action he seems super open to and genuinely believe the idea that the exile could make Zuko stronger and better, not to mention worthy of the throne if he succeeds. Ozai treats Zuko like the heir despite favoring Azula is all I am saying. Zuko's actions are therefore almost impossible, yes, but not hopeless or even naive. And if this trend of Ozai's respect and "love" (Super on quotes) being achievable continues, Zuko's eventual turn to the good side will be much more powerful. He will have to give up much more after spending a summer with his abusive parent love bombing him for "killing" the avatar. Zuko's choice will be solely based on his findings about the horrors the fire nation has committed and not wanting to be the cause of more suffering even though he could have it all. Even though it was his fate to be his father's "mini me"-> Something terrifyingly likely and not so quickly discarded by the narrative itself as it was in the animated series.

I think the best part about this subtle change in the father-son dynamic (If it was the intention of the writers, I am aware it could have been unintended) is that the scar tm was a direct result of Zuko's compassion for those soldiers and not just the excuse Ozai used to banish him or "final straw" because he preferred Azula sooo much more, as it is pretty much implied later on in the animated series and comics by focusing so much on how much of a perfect victim Zuko was pretty much from birth. The addition of the 41st surviving because of Zuko was also pretty nice, and so is Zuko's relationship with them, he will need fire nation allies when he gets to the throne and this is a good start, something the animated series never touched upon much.

I am on episode 6 btw so my opinion might change. I will edit this post if that is the case. BUT my thoughts on these first scenes doesn't change, they are good imho

EDIT (And spoilers): I just watched Zhao’s revelation where he tells Zuko that Ozai would never let him return and he just wanted to use him to motivate Azula. It does change things and invalidates most of what I said, but taking out just this one scene, as I said, the Ozai-Zuko dynamic is great in this show, and also, Zhao is obviously not the most reliable source, because he was allied to Azula and obviously wanted to hurt Zuko, as he was losing the fight with him. There is also the fact that Azula wasn't watching Ozai and Zuko when Ozai told his son that he was being banished and that it was in part so he could get stronger etc, that was all for Zuko and had little way of serving as motivation for Azula (Unlike the scenes where Ozai praises Zuko in front of her, those could have totally been him bullshitting his daughter to motivate her to work even harder). So all in all this scene doesn't ruin the overall impression I had of the Ozai-Zuko father-son dynamic in the life action show. In fact, it could be taken to confirm one of my impressions which was that Ozai likes pitying his children against each other to push them harder.

EDIT 2: Ozai's reaction to Zuko's possible death is further proof imo that his “test” was very much real (even if almost impossible) and everything I said earlier still stands. He wouldn't mind that much if he died, it would just prove his “weakness”, and he is very pleased with Azula, but he didn't look happy or even indifferent when he learned the news.

[eponastory]

Hi blackbullet99! It's nice to see you make these accusations that are taken out of context.

First of, THERE IS NO COMPARISON BETWEEN AANG AND OZAI!

Aang may be a bad dad by playing favorites, but he doesn't manipulate, abuse, and outright physically harm his children. None of us think that. Only Kataangers have pointed that out.

Aang is also not a budding Sex Criminal... he just did something stupid that made all of us uncomfortable because this was a show written in the mid-00s... SA was usually covered up and brushed under the rug or even worse, made to be completely okay. I should know, I was alive then and very much a victim of stupid boys doing stupid shit. Trust me it's not fun. They knew what they were doing, just like Aang's writers did. Does that make him a sex criminal? No, it just makes Bryke look really bad for putting that in there. Aang's a fictional character.

As far as Katara's relationship with Aang...

Baby-maker? That's what I've seen Kataang shippers point out more than Zutara shippers.

Mother figure? Yeah, that's her role. That's the role Bryke gave her, and it sucks because she has to deal with a literal child. A grown man that has temper tantrums. I will not deny that accusation because that's definitely there.

It's not that Kataang is the problem. It's just Aang.

We don't hate Katara, we love her and want justice for her character (that was written by two white men in the mid-00s) and reduced to the typical Christian Wife.

I'm being serious on that one. (Christians, I'm going to be real, my religious trauma does not reflect all of Christianity, just certain beliefs) having grown up to believe my purpose in life was to marry, have my husbands children, and be submissive to said husband, is not good. And that's pretty much what Bryke did to Katara.

That and the butchered many different cultures and beliefs.

But yeah. The problem IS Bryke and the way they wrote Aang.

You are just repeating the same drivel over and over again because someone said it first, and you agree with it. The person who said it first is the one who took everything out of context and said this is how to start a cult!

So yeah. Keep being a broken record. At least we came to the conclusion on our own.

And yes, you can fuck off.

[theerurishipper]

I think it's ridiculous how people hear/read "ever since iv'e been born, you've put me through so much!" and immediately jump to "zuko hates azula and is blaming her for his issues!!!" because A: She actually is responsible for a lot of his issues and hes actually doing a good thing by calling her out to her face because he knows this isn't normal anymore and B: Of course hes not blaming her as a baby, some phrases aren't literal, including this. What he meant is that as far as he's remembered, Azula has always hated him and treated him accordingly.

On another note, I wish people would stop giving flack for leaving azula with ozai. Yes, contact with her abuser would do more harm than good, but azula herself requested to talk to him and she herself doesnt realize she's been abused so she shows no fear or discomfort. Zuko naturally assumes they have a special bond or that ozai likes her, because that's what almost everyone, including azula herself, has drilled into his head. All zuko knows at this point is that azula is better than him and that he can be never like her. just because zuko is smart doesnt mean hes a mind reader.

You're absolutely right. I did actually write about this, but it's so weird to me that people are taking what is obviously hyperbole and treating it like Zuko legitimately thinks Azula was abusing him since he was a baby. The way they twist an abuse victim's language that he's expressing himself with and use it as some gotcha moment against him is pretty weird lol. I'm so sorry Zuko didn't have a perfectly concise and accurate speech prepared that he could recite to Azula, but that's what happens when you've just been attacked.

And you're also right about Zuko leaving Azula with Ozai. Yes, it's not good for Azula, she needs to get away from Ozai, but Zuko doesn't know that. He's still just a kid, he's still dealing with his own issues, and what's been shown to him about Azula and Ozai his whole life is that Ozai actually likes her and that they have a different relationship. Even Azula isn't aware of the truth, and she says that she wants to speak to Ozai herself. Of course, she has to realize the truth for herself, but you can't blame Zuko for not realizing it either when he's pretty consistently been shown a certain picture about their relationship (one that Azula uses to her advantage and throws in his face herself and making use of the fact that Ozai "prefers" her). All in all, you're absolutely right anon.

Thank you for your ask!

[sokkastyles]

What bothers me in particular after seeing the millionth post saying something to the tune of, "yes, Ursa was abused, but that doesn't excuse her mistreatment of Azula," when the supposed "mistreatment" doesn't actually occur in the show - the post I saw said that the show itself was "biased" - what bothers me in particular is not only the victim blaming of Ursa, but also the insistence that our focus should actually be on abuse that happened offscreen. When you are saying that the show itself is biased, then you're saying that you're willing to discard actual evidence of abuse in favor of another narrative that can be invented out of thin air. Because Azula is not, in fact, a real person. What is presented on the show is Azula as she is. There can be no "biased" portrayal because Azula is a product of fiction and does and thinks and feels only what she is written to do and think and feel, for the purpose of fulfilling a particular narrative function. Ditto for Ursa and Zuko and Iroh. So when you say you don't believe the text as it is presented, and you'd rather come up with another narrative, what you are saying is your first instinct, when presented with an abuse narrative, is to not believe it. That you'd rather believe that Azula's abusive behavior is the fault of other people, many of whom were either her victims or the victims of her abuser, because of her age or gender or whatever.

Azula is an abuse victim who became an abuser and instead of accepting that, y'all want to create excuses for her and blame other victims instead.

We're talking about fiction, but if the only abuse narrative you can accept is the one that only exists in your head, if the abuse survivor for whom you have the most sympathy is one whose narrative you can change to suit your ideas of what abuse looks like, what does that say about your ability to empathize with real people? People whose narratives you can't reimagine into comfortable headcanons because you think the narrative is biased.

That's what bothers me whenever I see people praising Ursa for being "a flawed character." Ursa is, in fact, barely a character at all and mostly defined by being a mother, but there's enough room in the narrative for people to imagine their own headcanons and so what the fandom comes up with is "she must have been a bad mother because her daughter is a bad person." Even though we KNOW why Azula became the way she is. Even though Azula (and Ozai, who Azula imitates) is directly juxtaposed with the goodness her mother represents in the narrative.

It's just so tiringly misogynistic. Like, the fact that Ursa mostly exists to be fridged is itself a product of sexism. Sometimes you need to ask yourself "is this a wonderful, detailed portrayal of a flawed female character, or am I just being a misogynist?"

Another good thing to ask yourself is "am I really listening to abuse narratives, or am I just changing them in my head to fit what I think they should be to make them more palatable to consume?" (i.e. the "but Azula is 14!!!" crowd. Particularly when y'all say Zuko can't be abused by his younger sister.)

Being a survivor of abuse doesn't excuse abusing others, but the character who exemplifies that message is Azula, not Ursa. Ursa's role in that narrative is to be juxtaposed against Azula, to represent that this is a truth Azula knows deep down but won't accept. To argue that Ursa mistreated Azula or is the reason why Azula is the way she is is to miss that point completely.

[azulas-daddy-kink]

Sorry if it's been asked, but thoughts on Kiyi (and Ursa)?

My thoughts on Ursa are... complicated.

Kiyi though, I simply like to pretend she doesn't exist. She's just a stupid character, Yang's little Mary Sue OC who is there purely to serve his bizarre Anti-Azula agenda. She has no reason to exist, other than to tell the audience he thinks Azula is a terrible daughter and little sister who isn't worth her mother and brother's time, and should just be replaced. The fact that she ALSO calls Zuko "Zuzu" is particularly egregious... it's actually disgusting.

Now back to Ursa, where it gets dicey is that show Ursa and comics Ursa essentially aren't even the same character, and unfortunately the comics version is a lot more fleshed out. If I'm being honest, she has basically zero redeeming qualities, and not only that, Yang tried way too hard to make her the "one true victim TM".... and failed spectacularly. She just comes off petty, spiteful, selfish, and even kind of stupid.

Yes, it was selfish of her to FUCKING FORGET HER OWN KIDS.

Yes, it was petty, spiteful, and stupid of her to write that incriminating letter which states that Zuko is not Ozai's son. Stupid in the sense that it can be (and was) later used to threaten Zuko's position and discredit any claim he may have to the throne. Petty and spiteful in the sense that this was done purely to hurt Ozai's feelings BY HER OWN ADMISSION. Girl, what???? What the actual fuck were you thinking?!

Though, I do concede that Ursa was in a difficult situation, and is a victim of Ozai's abuse (possibly even a victim of marital rape as well). And this applies to both the comics and the OG cartoon - yes, anybody with half a brain can infer that Ozai treated his wife like shit, just as he treats everyone else around him like shit. So even if we disregard the comics, I am comfortable calling Ursa a victim of domestic abuse....

HOWEVER

...this DOES NOT excuse her abuse (yes, I said it!) of Azula, nor her blatant favoritism of Zuko. Favoring one child over another is emotional abuse. Neglect is emotional abuse. Emotional abuse is indeed "real" abuse. This is not an opinion, it is a fact.

"Ozai abused Ursa" and "Ursa abused Azula" are two extremely true statements that can and should coexist.

All of this being said, I am also comfortable calling Ursa a less than ideal (even bad) mother. Bottom line, if your kid grows up thinking you don't love them, you fucked up somewhere.

[the-genius-az]

Kemurikage!Azula is just chilling with her adopted cubs when Mai comes and is like "hi, I want you". Azula is like "hi, I wanted you too, now I'm busy, go back to Zuzu". Because I love Maizula and Tyzula, but also love when Azula is able to have a whole new life without them.

I feel sad and I want to make it everyone's problem. Look at the bright side, I tend to not go there with the abuse dynamics of Azula and Ozai...

It's almost funny because people agree that Ursa was a victim even if we don't see anything, people agree Zuko was a victim of more than what we see, but Azula? No, of course not, why would she be? (I don't think people are ready to compute that it's a cycle, which means that yes, Ozai was a victim too at some point.)

The emotionally immature gang.

Mai bringing their pup to meet Azula is heartbreaking at first, because Azula doesn't think it's real. She's not being hostile, but she's staying away and looking at them like she's begging them to stop bothering her. It's gonna take an effort for Azula to believe it's real, lots of visits from Mai. Until she's allowed to hold the cub.

Apparently everyone in my life thinks I'm depressed, so I'm going to therapy... one day.

- Ash 🔥🍌

Because I love Maizula and Tyzula, but also love when Azula is able to have a whole new life without them.

Me too! I love my baby with her girlfriends, but Azula is completely independent, and doesn't need a partner when she already has people who love her unconditionally.

Look at the bright side, I tend to not go there with the abuse dynamics of Azula and Ozai...

You're right! At least you don't do that, that would destroy me.

(I don't think people are ready to compute that it's a cycle, which means that yes, Ozai was a victim too at some point.)

Violence is a cycle, I think we can all agree on that.

Mai bringing their pup to meet Azula is heartbreaking at first, because Azula doesn't think it's real.

I bet Azula will stare at her puppy, thinking it's real, until she starts smelling it and realizes it's real and it's her son.

Apparently everyone in my life thinks I'm depressed, so I'm going to therapy... one day.

Someday we will go to therapy, don't worry, we will very soon, we just need money.

[my-bated-breath]

Can people just admit that azula is a terrible person? While yes, she is a victim of ozai's abuse and indoctrination, she's not exactly innocent either. She also misblames Zuko for her own abuse and if her words at the beach are any indication, she's never gotten over the feelings of Zuko being loved more by Ursa (which isn't true) and still took it out on him to this day.

On my first watch of ATLA, I didn't spare too much thought toward Azula's redemptive qualities, but reading more analysis on her character later on definitely made me more sympathetic towards her. But I also think it's unfair to say that the show treated Zuko much better than it did Azula, or that the show was flawed for not giving Azula a chance to redeem herself, which I've also seen a lot of posts on Tumblr espousing.

I believe that an opportunity for redemption is due to luck and circumstances, which Zuko had with Iroh by his side. Meanwhile, Azula never had the chance to even see the world from a different perspective. I think this is the principal reason why a large part of the ATLA fandom wants to see her redeemed, and I think this is a testament to how balanced the show's writing and treatment of her, rather than the opposite. Because the show does paint Azula in a sympathetic light and illuminates her humanity. Again, her being cruel and antagonistic and thus, resented by the main cast of ATLA, is the result of circumstances that the show takes care to explore in great nuance later on.

That's a very long-winded way of saying that yes, I don't think Azula is a good person. Far from it, in fact. She never had the chance to become one, but the show acknowledges this.

[tinky-dinky]

I am so very tired of this 'Oh, Azula's just an abused child, she deserves better, she's not responsible' narrative.

Yes, she is an abused child. But so is Zuko. And he chooses to be good. Before anyone jumps on it, he was already choosing to be a relatively decent person before he got scarred and Iroh began mentoring him. The whole reason he got burned in the first place was because he spoke out against the generals wanting to use a battalion of new recruits as fodder for the earthbenders. He was already fundamentally good.

So, if Zuko is able to have empathy for others and choose to do the right thing at 13 years old, why can't Azula? She's 14 in the show, a year older than Zuko was. But she chooses to do horrible things, and does so with a smile on her face. Hell, we see her smirking gleefully while watching Ozai burn Zuko's face in the flashback of the Agni Kai. Iroh, former imperial general who's definitely seen plenty of other horrible things, is so disgusted he can't look. But Azula looks and she is delighted by what she sees.

Does she deserve better? Well, obviously, she doesn't deserve to be abused. But she absolutely deserves to be in prison or in a mental health facility. She attempted to kill Iroh, Aang, Zuko and Katara (she might actually succeed in killing Aang, it's a bit unclear). In the real world, a 14 year old who tried to kill four people would definitely be sent to either juvie or a mental health facility, at least until they're 18, but possibly longer.

Politically speaking, Zuko has to be at least seen to be doing something to Azula in recompense for Ba Sing Se. I can't imagine the Earth Kingdom would be very pleased if he just allowed her to walk free after she took over their city. Hakoda would probably also want her to face some consequences for trying to kill Katara, and he's the chief of the Southern Water Tribe. Also, how can Zuko justify punishing any of the Fire Nation generals/admirals/whoever responsible for the many horrific acts towards the Earth Kingdom and Water Tribes if he allows Azula to go unpunished?

Azula is absolutely responsible for what she chose to do. Are there mitigating circumstances, lessening but not removing her responsibility? Yes. But she is still responsible, especially because she clearly wasn't under duress, going off how she was smirking gleefully the vast majority of the time.

Zuko is under no obligation to help her. She tormented him throughout their childhood, to the point of gleefully telling him their father was going to kill him. She tried to kill him, and his beloved uncle, and his friends. She coerced and threatened Mai and Ty Lee. An abuse victim does not have to help their abuser, regardless of their familial connection.

[sasukeless]

1, 7, 10 and 13 for atla? don't have to answer them all if you cba and i just always feel vindicated by your posts it's very nice

hii sorry this is late but thank uu i’m glad my posts resonate with someone

1) the character everyone gets wrong

iroh, definitely. i mean ofc the show itself helps on this by never holding him accountable for the whole being a war criminal and his attempt to colonize ba sing se. but it’s been years so it’s annoying he still gets the old man that’s just there to give good advice and funny jokes only treatment for majority of the audience.

also jet. it’s odd how ppl are so ready to jump anyone if you don’t like zuko immediately because he redeemed himself but jet it’s still viewed as a complete villain / lost cause.

and lastly azula. my baby i love her unfortunately shes stuck between people that think she’s the worst evil ever and ppl that don’t like she is ultimately written to be a villain. Yes, she’s a victim of her abusive father as much as zuko and unlike him she didn’t have any support from their uncle but still, i don’t think a redemption arc is what her character conclusion should be lol. i’m happy with her still ending as a villain, it’s tragic but also not unrealistic. i find it more entertaining too.

7) what character did you begin to hate not because of canon but because how how the fandom acts about them?

sjjsjsj isn’t it kind of obvious? zuko. i just couldn’t stand the fans for so long. the way they put him in a pedestal. the ship wars. the comparsions to sasuke. IT WAS ALL SO UNBEARABLE.

but i have overcome it actually!!!! lol lately there’s been a pushback in atla fandom and now zuko is being constantly hated and dragged by others stans and while i still don’t care enough for him to be my fave, i felt the call to go against the waves because most of the arguments rn just sound ridiculous like damn. you would think he’s ozai or smth the way ppl talk about him

10) worst part of fanon

huhh i don’t really read atla fics and aus to know mich about atla fanon tbh. maybe how people talk about kyoshi 😭 i swear ppl make her smth she’s not

13) worst blorboficiation

for the same reasons i mentioned before this always goes to iroh!!

[umalvie]

Did Ursa favored Zuko over Azula?

i've talked about this before, but i don't think favor is quite the right word. i think it implies a conscious decision to treat zuko better, and i don't believe ursa was malicious in that sense. i think she felt alienated from her daughter at every turn, during her pregnancy and after, and that zuko was always so much easier for her to parent because ozai wasn't isolating him or poisoning him against the rest of the family, so he let her be his mother. i don't believe ursa was a good mom! not to either of her kids. but i don't feel right saying she favored zuko, at least not intentionally. she's harder on azula, yes, because she has a harder time connecting with azula. she doesn't understand her daughter, and she sees so much of her husband in her, and that is terrifying for her because she is also a victim of ozai's abuse, so she's too punitive with azula instead of trying to understand her better. i think ursa feels rejected by azula, and so she unconsciously rejects her daughter in return, not seeing that all azula really wants from her is to be loved the way a daughter is supposed to be loved.

so azula would certainly tell you ursa favored zuko, and ursa probably knows on some level that loving zuko is easier for her than loving azula and feels horribly guilty about it, and zuko on some level probably feels happy that someone in the world loves him better than azula because of how he sees her, and ozai would definitely tell azula her mother doesn't want her or care about her so he could better abuse her into becoming his weapon, but i don't think there's malice to it on ursa's end. i think that ursa, zuko, and azula are trapped in a horrible situation with an abuser who has pit them against each other. the fire nation royal family is a tragedy that way.

[princess-of-the-corner]

Something frustrating I saw:

"Zuko doesn't realize that Azula is an abuse victim because the writers don't realize she's an abuse victim."

Given that even the INCREDIBLY controversial comics acknowledged that Ursa REALLY dropped the ball with Azula, the show presented her downfall as tragic rather than karmic, and the creators confirmed that they would have given Azula a redemption arc (with Zuko giving her the unwavering love and support Iroh once gave him), I think it's safe to say that they DO realize Azula is an abuse victim.

I mean, remember, "The Beach" showed her growing increasingly frustrated with her inability to be "normal", and hinted at deeply rooted self loathing.

I just...

Where did they get the idea that the writers didn't realize Azula was also an abuse victim?

YEAH NO LIKE

Literally the show is so aware that even though Azula is doing awful things, she is still a child and a victim. Her entire breakdown has her sympathetic. Her defeat is not a 'victory' in any way. Though Zuko know that she needs to be taken down to stop causing harm, he doesn't want to hurt her.

And yes! Post-Canon, Zuko is trying to help her! She's not locked in a jail cell, she's getting help from whatever psychiatry there is in this world. (Like yes she has to be restrained because if not then she keeps attempting murder HOWEVER-).

I think some people get caught up in Iroh's 'she's crazy and needs to go down' line but like. Iroh has a unique and somewhat biased view on this situation. After all, he knows exactly the kind of monster that Azula is beginning to turn into because he watched Ozai go from relatively innocent kid to the monster he is in the show.

But no yeah! Zuko, and the writers, know that Azula is very much a victim!

And yes there are times where Zuko can also get angry and frustrated with her and her actions. Because being abused is not an excuse. Because Azula was another tool Ozai used to hurt him. So yes ofc Zuko is, on occasion, going to be upset with her despite knowing that Ozai is the root cause of her actions. But it doesn't mean he isn't aware that she's just.... better at meeting Ozai's expectations and avoiding his wrath.

[sirenalpha]

Why are Thanos and Azula fans so mental

idk if u want a real answer but have it anyways, I haven't interacted with any Thanos fans so I can't say there, I think he was portrayed well and more memorable than a lot of other MCU villains though not all but ultimately his plan is kind of nonsensical so I don't find him that interesting to discuss

he's kind of a lot like Ozai in my opinion, Ozai has bricks for brains and he's only made interesting through his children and his menace and atla actually does better with the build up and menace and follow through probably because they had one consistent team rather than multiple directors

you only really need one post to discuss either of them which is that they're stupid and cruel and their children are better than them as people and/or characters and their actors did a really good job in helping their believability despite their super dumb plans

but if I were to guess, I think Thanos fans are mental because they think his plan is sound and applicable to the real world, and yes we humans on planet earth without magic are living on a finite planet under an economy that needs infinite growth to function which is obviously in conflict with finite reality which will make people twist themselves to try to square that cognitive dissonance to begin with, but ultimately the non-cruel and more effective though supremely difficult and potentially dangerous solution is to change the economy, but instead they support Thanos's halving the population as a logical and good solution but it's not, if you don't solve the underlying problem - the economy - you will still end up in a place of running out of resources due to an infinitely growing economy

to make it worse, Thanos's plan is even less sensical in the MCU than in the real world, he has the ability to make whatever he wants at will, he could make infinite resources and chooses not to, so if you take something that's cruel but could be a short term solution in a finite world and apply it to a scenario where those limits don't apply because magic

you have to be mental and also cruel to treat Thanos's plan as good and smart, you are fighting reality

and fighting reality is also why Azula's fans are mental

don't get me wrong, I really like Azula, she is a much better written character than Thanos, she doesn't have any plans or do anything super obviously stupid, but she is still a villain, has a negative character arc, and is flawed and some fans really cannot accept characters having any flaws or being culpable for their own problems in any way

a lot of the really mental Azula fans completely deny how manipulative she is, especially of Zuko, they see her as a fundamentally honest character because she told the truth a couple of times which does not match the text of the show

and if you deny that she is manipulative it's obviously hard to see that she is abusive which she is, mostly to Zuko but she's also cruel and tests Ty Lee and Mai

they see her as an abuse victim of Ozai, Ursa, and Iroh and one who did not receive help from anyone and deserved help and rescue from Iroh but more importantly from Zuko, and while it's true Ozai abused her, there's no evidence Ursa and Iroh abused her though they obviously weren't able to prevent the abuse, and Zuko as her abuse victim actually doesn't owe her shit and that's unacceptable to them

so accurately describing Azula as she is in the show is seen as an attack denigrating the character by Azula fans because they have a completely warped view of her that doesn't match the text of the show and only exists on their head which obviously is in conflict with reality