#wotsq spoilers

[lawful-evil-novelist]

I love how Gromph is like "jfc these are halflings what the fuck" and all the halflings are like "oh this is a random sobbing drow that fell into our afterlife we should make sure he's okay"

[bramblepatch]

Honestly I don't think it's safe to assume that Quenthel would recognize Valas by sight.

need valas and quenthel to see achother post lolths warrior and just have to make awkward small talk for a bit

[bramblepatch]

do we ever get to the other drow cities? is menzoberranzan the biggest/most powerful one or just the one we happen to have viewpoint characters from?

The Legend of Drizzt series mostly deals with Menzoberranzan (and Menzoberranyr expats) - it's not the biggest or most important drow city, but it's the main one in that region of the Underdark, and it's where the main characters in this series are from.

If you want to see more of drow society, I heartily recommend the War of the Spider Queen sextet - it's a collaborative project with a different author writing each book and Salvatore in an editorial role. Lolth stops answering prayers without warning or explanation, and the series follows a party travelling from Menzoberranzan to try and investigate how wide-reaching the problem is and what's happening. Chronologically it takes place between The Pirate King and The Ghost King in the LoD series; you don't strictly need to read it then, but if you're reading LoD in order I recommend waiting at least until after you finish Siege of Darkness to start WotSQ for spoiler reasons.

[artemis-entreri]

Hey, following up on the anon who asked you about the Drizzt FR canon, do you have any recommendations for FR books that aren't by Bob?

[[ Hey there, thanks for asking! I've got lots of recommendations, so it depends a lot on what you like/what you'd like to read about. \

People who find FR through the Drizzt books tend to be into drow, so if you like those, I really recommend the Starlight & Shadows trilogy by Elaine Cunningham. It's a much more nuanced, detailed and just overall better portrayal of drow culture (both Lolthite, Eilistraeen and otherwise) with a more interesting and mult-faceted drow protagonist. It's ok if you have a hard time liking her, she's meant to be a spoiled little princess who's proud of being a Lolthite at the beginning, so I think Cunningham intended the reader to dislike her. What I find compelling about that trilogy, other than the good storytelling and good writing overall, are two things: First, unlike Drizzt and his all-too-overdone need to be different from society trope, Liriel is proud of her drow heritage and goes to the surface with one of her main struggles being how to hold onto the part of her identity that is that heritage. Second, Cunningham fully embraces the existence of factors that have the potential of taking away from Liriel's uniqueness simply by existing, i.e. other drow who seek out the surface and/or forces other than Lolth. Unlike Salvatore, who aggressively erases those elements to force an artificial reality in which his golden boy is the only one, Cunningham tackles and successfully accomplishes the much more difficult task of incorporating all of those elements to the fullest and making her character stand out nonetheless. These two things really speak to me because they feel real: love it or hate it, heritage is an important part of our identity, for it shapes us with our efforts to embrace it or to reject it; every person is unique, which if you think about it, with about seven and a half billion people on this planet, no two things being exactly identical seems like a statistical impossibility, and yet it is reality even within the confines of environments that have been artificially manipulated.

The War of the Spider Queen series by a collection of authors is also a decent read, although it does suffer from having been overseen by Salvatore. They weren't written by him, so they are more nuanced and acknowledge members of the Dark Seldarine aside from Lolth, but especially the later books do a not great handling of Eilistraee. What I don't recommend reading is the Lady Penitent series by Lisa Smedman, as it takes the worst traits of WotSQ and continues them. It's quite shocking that someone other than Salvatore would do so much injustice to Eilistraee, but sadly, Smedman went there. I personally found the Lady Penitent trilogy really boring, but some people really like it, although I can't understand why. The plot is slow, the characters are insipid, the only kind of neat thing is that it travels to Sshamath, but even then it was so glossed over that it felt more like a name drop than anything else. All the events covered in the Lady Penitent series gets retconned or diminished, and one of the two major outcomes that is portrayed as being this awesome thing is, if you think about it, actually really horrible. I'm happy to discuss the details, but I didn't want to spoiler them if you or anyone else reading this post does end up reading that series (although again, I highly do not recommend it).

If you like elves in general, Evermeet: Island of Elves by Elaine Cunningham tells of the history of the elves (and drow) on Toril. A lot of people like Paul S. Kemp’s Erevis Cale books, which I found all right, definitely much better than Salvatore, but I wouldn’t rave about them. Erin M. Evans’ Brimstone Angels books are also popular, and I really thought that they’d give the Drizzt books a run for their money. I was really surprised that WotC canned them along with the other novels, as they definitely had the potential to go on and on like the Drizzt books do. Personally, I thought the first book was great, the second one ok, and then they just started falling off for me, suffering from the same kind of thing that the Drizzt books do with a feeling of repetitiveness. There were of course people who swear by them and don’t feel that they got repetitive, but those are the same kinds of people who keep the Drizzt books going on. However, as those kinds of consumers are what most consumers are, because the Brimstone Angels books have the kind of draw that appeals to those types of consumers, it would’ve done well as a long serial, even if they aren’t to my tastes. They’re worth giving a fair shot, especially if you like tieflings and dragonborn. I will also give Evans a ton of credit for her LGBT+ representation in the books without making them token character tropes, which is incredibly important in a world like the Forgotten Realms. 

A friend of mine really likes the Brotherhood of the Griffon series by Richard Lee Byers, so I’ll throw that out there too.

My personal favorite FR books are the Blades of the Moonsea trilogy by Richard Baker and The Reaver by Richard Lee Byers. I tend to like stories about average people, local heroes instead of characters gunning to be the Realms’ Top Five. Not every hero has to be a Drizzt Do’Urden, not every villain has to be a BBEG, not every threat has to be a Realms-Shaking Event. I like to now more about a world by learning about what its average denizen is up to, and how someone who comes from among those denizens becomes a hero. The deeds that are done are not striking down demon princes, which really gets old when it happens every other book or so. It probably is no coincidence that both of those recommendations feature human protagonists. In a fantasy world with so many fantastical races, preferring humans might seem a boring choice, but I don’t know, there’s just something about that, “I’m a member of a short-lived race so my ambition/motives/actions will make up for that” that’s really compelling to me. It also really helps that there are some beautiful imagery in Blades of the Moonsea, with turns of phrases that stick with me years after I’ve read the books. Both it and The Reaver detail the setting so well that I came out of them feeling like I’d personally seen regions of the world that I’ve grown to love so much.

Oh, one final recommendation before I end this post: for getting to know one of the most iconic FR locations while also being treated to a good feel of this magical world as a whole, check out the Waterdeep series. Six different authors, six different stories, six different perspectives of Waterdeep make for an excellent experience. My favorites among the six are Mistshore and City of the Dead, with The God Catcher and Blackstaff Tower being my least favorite. I also really enjoyed Downshadow, which also features LGBT+ inclusion done in an organic way. Downshadow has sequels, together forming the Shadowbane series. The others are standalones. ]]

[mangocookiecrumbs]

This is such a great analysis of his character! Drow are honestly generally so fascinating to me, and I love how, when you read between the lines, many of the drow characters are actually more than one-dimensional assholes.

The points about his actions to Catti-brie are some I haven't thought about before, but they make so much sense to me. We have also seen that the concept of having several partners / consorts is relatively normal in Menzo, so I could also see that this made him understand even less how Catti-brie is off-limits. The reader knows from her conversations with Penelope, though, that she isn't open for anything polygamous. And of course the concept of consent was foreign to Gromph—which doesn't excuse anything, it just gives more explanation.

I was really excited to also see his relationship with Liriel addressed, because that's a thing I thought about a lot while reading this. So often his actions betray his positive feelings towards her.

Also!! He obviously cared a lot for his familiar. Like, these interactions? You can't tell me he didn't feel some affection there.

Often in these novels the narration reiterates that drow don't feel love, compassion, friendship, sadness, fear, and so on. I actually think, whenever that happens, it's the character whose POV we are currently seeing catching themselves feeling exactly those "preposterous" things and pushing them down. Or justifying them. Anything to make sure they know they aren't "weak".

Gromph is one such character. But I also actually really love Quenthel for this too. Quenthel is such a ball of emotion, especially anxiety. Currently I can't cite anything because I'm in bed and was actually about to go to sleep...but the amounts of times I've thought, "wow, Quenthel really has an intense emotional life for someone who thinks she's so aloof and cold".

I'm currently re-reading WotSQ and in Dissolution she even admits to herself that meditation is difficult for her, because her brain just never shuts up. That may not be proof of how emotional she is, but it's possible this is at least partially caused by her anxiety.

Okay, now that I'm already talking about WotSQ here's some thoughts I need to let go (spoilers? obviously.):

-I still get teary-eyed when I see Halisstra's name pop up anywhere and I've first read this series in 2021

-Pharaun and Ryld's friendship was something else and I found a strange satisfaction in actually seeing Pharaun regret his actions and miss what they had

-Danifey is such a queen, I cannot wait for her to appear again in this re-read. She was so so interesting to me, and I love how we got little hints about her backstory through her actions which were never elaborated on further

-I still cannot believe Aliisza and Pharaun had a kid, like what the hell man

-Valas deserves a break

Gosh, I have so many thoughts about Gromph Baenre. Maybe I’m reading too much into things lol, but here we go. Spoilers below for Starlight & Shadows, War of the Spider Queen, Companions Codex, Homecoming, Generations, and parts of The Way of the Drow.

Keep reading

[lawful-evil-novelist]

Someone do the handshake meme for Pharaun and Artemis and the middle part is "A Baenre Making Them Deal with Rat People"

[lawful-evil-novelist]

Abyss knows where Jarlaxle's been? Are you telling me Jarlaxle actually didn't tell anyone where he was he's just been fucking around on the surface????

I love him he's such a fucking problem.

[lawful-evil-novelist]

Kimmuriel, reading the aboleth section of this fucking report: Valas I'm charging them for this and giving you the whole fucking surcharge.

[lawful-evil-novelist]

Ryld honestly this time? Just leave Halisstra. It's really not worth it.

[lawful-evil-novelist]

Given the very apparent slump of Valas' shoulders when Tzirik betrayed them, I kinda get the feeling that once Valas was away from the party and back with the Bregan D'aerthe and semi-safe he just...cried.

Seeing Tzirik again was the one time Valas ever smiled in this book, and I doubt he actually has time to process the betrayal and his own grief.

[lawful-evil-novelist]

As amusing as Jeggred only ever calling Pharaun "wizard" is that he only ever calls Triel "Mother" so he sounds so much like a spoiled little baby.

[lawful-evil-novelist]

Not over Gromph screaming about how beneath him it is for Dyrr to just start swinging like my guy you gotta get to lich old where you become an old man with a deficit of fucks to give especially since swinging was effective.

Dyrr does not care if physical violence is beneath him Gromph, get sticked.

[lawful-evil-novelist]

Gromph truly did say "I would like the Silence of Lolth to end because it is an inconvenience to me personally."

[lawful-evil-novelist]

10/10 to everyone but Jeggred just fucking FORGETTING that Valas can't levitate.

You're all grade-A dicks if the half-fiend is being more considerate.

[lawful-evil-novelist]

The general wider response to Jeggred is so eye-opening to me because like, he’s a child.  His sentences have the same grammatical structure as nine to eleven-year-old, he struggles to see adult family members as flawed or fallible, he throws tantrums, he’s extremely emotional, even his body language kinda teeters between a startled cat and a young teenager.

That said, everyone around Jeggred speaks to or interacts with him as if he were either a grown adult or a literal monster.  Quenthel often speaks to him as if his behavior is ridiculous or immature but really, Jeggred is usually just...acting his age.  It kinda seems like the only person who tends to treat him like the age he is, rather than the age he seems, are Gromph and Triel, which is probably more because they treat everyone like that, not because they’re recognizing that he’s a child.

It’s not at all surprising that Jeggred is volatile and violent.  That’s so routinely expected of him and his displays of less violent/angry behavior are so regularly discouraged (see Quenthel threatening him when he tries to hug her) while his violent behavior is encouraged.  It’s really kind of sad because you get the sense he’d be closer to a normal drow child if he was just...treated like one.

[lawful-evil-novelist]

While I don't think "in the middle of a fight" is normally a good time, Valas gets to mock Pharaun, as a treat.