#will come at me and not accepting me as *real* gwynriel shipper

[romanticatheartt]

Nahh I agree cause I only see ship related content for Azriel week.

I did see some Elriel content for Azriel week, but I can’t judge when I don’t know nor care what’s going on over there. I can only agree about Gwynriels focusing too much on Gwynriel rather than Azriel alone. I saw maybe 3 or 4 Azriel fanarts and too many Gwynriel fanarts. The prompt „belonging“ especially is full of ship related content. Wtf?

The only event that I know of in which the character was properly appreciated was Gwyn‘s week. I think Lucien did have plenty of content focusing only on him despite the drama but Azriel appreciation week and Elain appreciation week were done dirty, focusing mainly on ships.

There‘s going to be another Elain week this month so let‘s see how that will go. I have better faith in Eluciens than Gwynriels.

Yeah, I didn't mention Elriel much because I haven't seen more than a few of their works, but in my feed, all I see is Gwynriel. It's crazy at this point, lmao. If I didn't know better, I would've thought it was a Gwynriel week or something.

And for the "belonging" prompt? I literally talked with my mutuals about how no one talked about Bat Boys, or how one day he will feel that sense of belonging about Illyria, or how he has been part of IC for 500 years, and they're his family. NOPE, people decided to make it about a ship. I understand how it would fit the prompt, but he's more than his relationship with another character.

I only saw one Bat Boys fanart with Rhys's mother and a few HoW gang fanart, which are also related to the ship war.

And trust me I saw way too many Elucien fanarts on Lucien week. None of these characters are truly appreciated. It's an event for each side of the ship war to turn it into a competition of who submits more fanart/fic/etc. for their ship...

And honestly, I don't have much hope for the new Elain week lol it's going to be messy imo. These character events are an official week for these people to fight over their ships not to appreciate their favorite character.

Instead of coming together and trying to have some common ground, they turn it into whatever this is…

[venusin-aries]

Anti’s coming into the Gwyneth Berdara tag and accusing Gwynriel’s of the mischaracterization of Gwyn or only liking Gwyn because of Gwynriel is fucking LAUGHABLE. 

All I've seen are posts singing praises about Gwyn (just Gwyn!) and I have NOT ONCE seen a Gwynriel shipper characterize Gwyn wrongly.

What are we mischaracterizing her for? 

Being brave as fuck for choosing to train to be a Valkyrie? Nesta’s admiration and fondness of her? For saying she’s resilient for being able to enjoy herself and laugh with her friends after experiencing some fucked up shit? THAT SHE'S LIKABLE?? Being strategic and patient FOR DAYS and spying on the Illaryian males before sending the beasts after them ruthlessly? Being smart and witty? Her interests in sex and smut and stating she doesn’t want to be coddled? Her willingness to sacrifice herself on the bridge? Her determination to finish the blood rite even though she was injured as fuck? Her unwavering loyalty toward Nesta and Emerie? That Nesta thinks her beauty is comparable to Mor and Merrill?

The fact that she’s not judgemental and she immediately accepted Nesta when they were sharing their stories? Her own struggle with guilt and self hate? Her immediately witnessing what Azriel is capable of when they first met? Azriel’s shadows reacting POSITIVELY towards her and yeah, the thought of her joy glowing in his chest? That she teases him and challenges him? That she hasn't seen him torture someone yet but she's seen worse shit soooo why would she be fazed??

She's canonly more suitable for Azriel than anybody else in the series and THAT'S why people dislike her as a character even though on her own she's a great character.

Those are only SOME of her positives we got in ONE book. Notice, some of those positives include Azriel, but most don’t 🤷🏻‍♀️. 

Allllllll of those points have textual evidence to support them. And these are allllllll the points Gwynriel shippers love to make about her. 

The only charactization of her anti’s will accept is if she goes back to the library, stays there and is never seen or heard of in canon again. Or if she’s evil which she’s likely not going to be. Stop being so petty. If anything SJM has her set up for a HEALING journey. 

However some people obviously like to see a female character STAY broken and let her trauma define her.

Getting mad when she's so obviously such a fun character? She has fun and laughs and teases her friends and Cassian and Azriel and enjoys herself but there's something wrong with that and you think its annoying????

Fanon Gwyn and Canon Gwyn are basically the same. If you don’t like fanon Gwyn, you probably don’t like canon Gwyn and that’s fine, whatever, I think you have totally shit taste but whatever just STAY OUT OF THE GWYNETH BERDARA TAG.

I see the shit ya'll tag and then delete.

I’m a Gwyn stan first and foremost but I have not seen one single other Gwynriel shipper mischaracterize her. 

Fanon is fun until it melts your brain and you start believing ONLY fanon and wrongly remembering canon and then attacking others for using canon to support their points. 

It’s crazy to me that anti’s can dislike a fictional character so much that the idea of potentially seeing more of said character in the canon universe and getting more fandom love honestly upsets them.

Like holy shit, I don’t like E/riel, but I have enough tact not to take that out on either Elain OR Azriel. And I don’t go looking to start shit with shippers because I'm not pathetic. Too bad some people can’t extend that same class to Gwyn. 

Also, I feel like some people forget about this fucking scene. 

Gwyn studied Ramiel's craggy, unforgiving slope. Not much snow graced its sides. Like the wind had whipped it all away. Or the storms had avoided its peak entirely. “Is it living, though? To take the safe road?”

“You’re the one who's been living in a library for two years,” Emerie said.

Gwyn didn't flinch. “I have. And I am tired of it.” She surveyed the blood-soaked leather along her thigh. “I don't want to take the safe road.” She pointed to the mountain, to the slender path upward. “I want to take that road.” Her voice thickened. “I want to take the road that no one dares travel, and I want to travel it with you two. No matter what may befall us. Not as Illyrians, not for their titles, but as something new. To prove to them, to everyone, that something new and different might triumph over their rules and restrictions.”

A cold wind blew off Ramiel's sides. 

Whispering, murmuring.

“They call this climb the Breaking for a reason,”Emerie countered gravely.

Nesta added, “Wehaven't eaten in days. We're down to the last of our water. To climb that mountain-“

“I have been broken once before,” Gwyn said, her voice clear. “I survived it. And I will not be broken again- not even by this mountain.”

Look at me and tell me this is a character we’ll never hear from again. Go right a fucking head. 

You can't come into the Gwyneth Berdara tag claiming we mischaracterize her. We take her as is. No need to pick her apart or give her little unnecessary traits to fit her better with any one.

It's not possible to make her out to be something she's not when every little thing we love about her is canon.

You can be salty over us comparing Bryce/Hunt and Azriel/Gwyn but oh wait! SJM uses similar language to describe them ON PURPOSE in canon as fucking well!!!

On purpose.

In fucking canon.

But we’re reaching.

Do not come into the Gwyneth Berdara tag and say Gwynriel’s make it hard to like her but oh, you do like her you do! And then go on to say she’s nothing more special than a Valkyrie or Nesta’s friend. Yeah, I fucking saw that shit.

People are weirdly jealous over a ship/inspiring character a lot of people relate to.

Gwyn is not stealing Azriel from any one because there’s NO ONE to steal him from.

These character's are fake but the hate and vitriol ya'll are spewing at people who like her are very real.

Just stay out of the Gwyneth Berdara tag if you don't like her.

[merymoonbeam]

With all due respect, I’m not the one who needs to get a life. There is a large amount of gwynriel fan art - especially of that scene where Azriel rescues Gwyn. However, there has only been one creator who has depicted Azriel as shirtless. And, of all the countless (!) gwynriel shippers, only a select few people have made comments calling the scene ‘passionate’ (keeping in mind that for many, English isn’t their first language…)

And, even if you do have an issue with how this particular scene is being portrayed by some people in the fandom - why can’t we simply have a conversation about it? Especially given that the people elriels are ganging up on (who are real life people - not fictional!), could very well be SA survivors themselves. But instead, and as always, the default mode for elriels is aggression and hostility. I actually used to ship elriel myself, but couldn’t stomach being part of a community that is full of so much hatred.

You are also incorrect in saying that the comparison I made is like “apples and pears.” Literally just google search ‘Feyre and Rhys Under the Mountain’ to see COUNTLESS art pieces of Feyre dancing over Rhys’s body, or any other scene from the first book (which was incredibly traumatic for Feyre, and something that Rhys himself acknowledges was awful) but is instead made to look like this super sexy scene between the two of them. I’ve seen art of Rhys twisting Feyre’s broken arm as he winks, or art of Rhys drugging Feyre, and kissing her as tears fall down her face in disgust. Yet, I don’t hear the same outcry. As far as I can tell, gwynriels aren’t producing art of Gwyn being assaulted… yet there’s a myriad of art pieces of Feyre being assaulted (which is then also romanticised! By other elriels too!)

As for your point about Gwyn (potentially) being a morally gray character - sure, no one’s denying that. Anything is possible in SJM books. But, the lightsinger theory, by extension, suggests that Gwyn is lying about her past. It’s also in poor taste to suggest that the character who has endured extreme sexual violence is ‘luring’ Azriel as a means to get between him and another girl. If elriels care so much about how Gwyn’s SA is portrayed (to the extent that they’ll go after gwynriels who don’t paint it in a way they deem appropriate), then why doesn’t that apply to your theories as well? Or even how you all talk about Gwyn online…?

Do you care (or even listen) when gwynriels and other people in the fandom have spoken out about how so much of the discourse elriels engage in is actively harmful to SA survivors (and spreads a really gross and incorrect rhetoric?) Or, is it just another chance to dog pile on, and demean people in the fandom who just so happen to have a different shipping preference to you…?

let's go bit by bit again shall we...

TW: SA

With all due respect, I’m not the one who needs to get a life.

you are the one who is sending me anon defending the romanticizing of Gwyn's SA...so yeah. get a life.

There is a large amount of gwynriel fan art - especially of that scene where Azriel rescues Gwyn. However, there has only been one creator who has depicted Azriel as shirtless. And, of all the countless (!) gwynriel shippers, only a select few people have made comments calling the scene ‘passionate’ (keeping in mind that for many, English isn’t their first language…)

so you accept that you guys use that scene to show "gwynriel"? the scene that didn't happen in the book but you are altering the scene to show gwynriel? Did I get that right?

there is so many of that scene where azriel is naked. I see them daily. Like come on... don't lie. He is shirtless in nearly 90% of them.

and english being their or any ones second language doesn't give them the right to be careless about their language. English is my second language and I use Google translate when I don't know a meaning of the word or to check if I'm correct about the meaning and use it correctly. So get out of here with that mindset. they can use Google translate like me or any other translator. that is not an excuse to use that word or doesn't give them any right to be so careless. and passionate is not a hard word to know like...it is a word I learned early on when I started learning english so...

Especially given that the people elriels are ganging up on (who are real life people - not fictional!), could very well be SA survivors themselves. But instead, and as always, the default mode for elriels is aggression and hostility. I actually used to ship elriel myself, but couldn’t stomach being part of a community that is full of so much hatred.

the fact that when elriels speak up about a fanart being triggering for SA survivors beeing seen as ganging up on a real person is...just weird.

And there is this stigma that when a person is from a country or from an ethnicity or have some type of trauma that doesn't mean whatever they do or say about that situation is right. When other people who is from that country or ethnicity or have that trauma as well say that thing is wrong or triggering it should be listened not get their comments deleted or get blocked. and this case that artist is deleting comments and blocking people who is spoken about that art being triggering or any other situation closer to this.

and I don't see elriels as hostile sure there is bad apples in every fandom but where is your standart against gwynriels who bullied artists out of the fandom or bullied people to closing their accounts or people who got ban from gwynriels reporting their fanarts? Why are we not talking about that? if there is 3 elriel bad apples there is 100 of gwynriels bullying elriels left and right. but bc of their numbers they are more heard bc they are louder. when we raise our voice about something, we are shown as "ganging up on the artist or whatever".

You are also incorrect in saying that the comparison I made is like “apples and pears.” Literally just google search ‘Feyre and Rhys Under the Mountain’ to see COUNTLESS art pieces of Feyre dancing over Rhys’s body, or any other scene from the first book (which was incredibly traumatic for Feyre, and something that Rhys himself acknowledges was awful) but is instead made to look like this super sexy scene between the two of them.

I googled. only saw one. other fanarts are with either the twins nuala and cerridwen or Feyre as alone. and those other fanarts with feyre sitting on rhys' lab is from acomaf lol. Get that right.

and if there is anything else I have never seen them.

I’ve seen art of Rhys twisting Feyre’s broken arm as he winks, or art of Rhys drugging Feyre, and kissing her as tears fall down her face in disgust. Yet, I don’t hear the same outcry.As far as I can tell, gwynriels aren’t producing art of Gwyn being assaulted… yet there’s a myriad of art pieces of Feyre being assaulted (which is then also romanticised! By other elriels too!)

I didn't see it. and if you did why are you not talking about it in your blog? coming to me using this to defend romanticizing gwyn's sa...LIKE ???????

I only saw one fanart of Rhys' holding Feyre's arm and it was done way before I joined the fandom. What do you want me to do about that? Go talk about a fanart that was done years ago when I didn't have any clue who sjm was?

and the issue is not about gwyn's assult being show...it is Gwyn's trauma is being used as a way to get a point for gwynriel. Literally this is what I'm trying to explain but you don't get it and trying to justify it to me by using Feysand fanarts that I can't seem to find.

As for your point about Gwyn (potentially) being a morally gray character - sure, no one’s denying that. Anything is possible in SJM books. But, the lightsinger theory, by extension, suggests that Gwyn is lying about her past. It’s also in poor taste to suggest that the character who has endured extreme sexual violence is ‘luring’ Azriel as a means to get between him and another girl. If elriels care so much about how Gwyn’s SA is portrayed (to the extent that they’ll go after gwynriels who don’t paint it in a way they deem appropriate), then why doesn’t that apply to your theories as well? Or even how you all talk about Gwyn online…?

lying about her past? lmfao. Lightsinger theory doesn't say or show that. I don't get it. WHAT? I'm confused. It is a theory to explain why she is glowing when she sings or shadows singing in answer to her breath like nesta's power did. that's all about it. where did you get that for real?

maybe it isn't to get between the girl and the guy but there is an another reason. literally you guys made yourselves believe that gwyn is a love interest for azriel and when we theorise she could be a lightsinger you are saying we are making gwyn be in between azriel and elain. lol no. That's not it at all. it is just that we are theorising why this girl glows when she signs and all those singing reference in the bonus. I can literally give two shits about gwyn coming in between azriel and elain.

Do you care (or even listen) when gwynriels and other people in the fandom have spoken out about how so much of the discourse elriels engage in is actively harmful to SA survivors (and spreads a really gross and incorrect rhetoric?) Or, is it just another chance to dog pile on, and demean people in the fandom who just so happen to have a different shipping preference to you…?

do you mean when we said Gwyn might not be ready bc she hasn't shown anything about being ready and at the end of the book went back to library which is the place she went in the first place bc of her trauma and Gwynriels started assuming about her being ready and drew her in extreme sexual positions(I'm talking bdsm and all) and other SA survivors also talked about how we shouldn't assume she is ready and then we were made villains bc gwynriels twisted our words to "elriels say gwyn can't have sex bc she is SA" if you are talking about that...READ THIS AGAIN. I explained. you are not the one who is dog pile on for shipping another "couple"...we are.

Okay. Bye now.

[silverlinedeyes]

I didn't threaten you, so calm down, I just said that some posts and theories, especially saying that gwyn is a lightsinger, can trigger and are harmful for real people. Where is the threat? I tried to explain to you why gwynriels and Gwyn stans in general don't support that theory and I tried to be as clear as possible. You put trigger warnings? Good for you because some of your fellow elriels don't and I said that because I know many follow you and are going to read that post because they do love the drama. I wasn't talking only about you. Anyways, I read your reply, we think differently but what I said it's true. You have your opinion and I have mine but I am speaking on behalf of many people and you elriels where wondering why we don't like that theory so I tried to explain it to you. Also, you have a veeeery long record of posts filled with hate towards every character that threatens your ship and for what I've read you don't like Gwyn one bit so what do you want people to think? That you are actually interested in Gwyn as a character? No. Many elriels want her to be evil so they can claim that elriel is endgame and shipping gwynriel is bad, the same way elriels are toxic towards elucien shippers and have bullied them for years now. This answer is getting long, so I am just going to say when you post something online, you are open for criticism and I decided to be respectful and explain myself the same you do. I didn't send you no hate, I did call people out for the reasons I explained before, so don't come at me saying "thanks for the threat" and playing the victim because that's so unnecesary. I don't care if you keep posting those things, it's your blog, but don't be surprise if more people call you out when the things you write are problematic and toxic (speaking in general).

I don’t need you to explain why gwynriels don’t like the lightsinger theory, thanks. I get it. I’ve had these conversations before. That’s why I put trigger warnings and disclaimers on my lightsinger posts.

I know that gwynriels don’t support the theory (at least when it comes from elriels). That was the whole point of my post that you sent your first anon about. I’ve been told time and again by gwynriels that the lightsinger theory is problematic or disgusting, yet now I see multiple gwynriels posting about it and using it. My point was, I guess it’s only ok for them to do it? And you just further confirmed that with your original anon and this one.

“You have a veeeery long record of posts filled with hate towards every character that threatens your ship and for what I’ve read you don’t like gwyn one but so what do you want people to think?”

Wowwwww. Show me all of the posts I’ve made that are filled with hate towards every character that threatens my ship. I’ll wait. Because there aren’t any. I don’t direct hate towards other characters in ACOTAR because, wait for it, I don’t hate any of them (except for the villains).

And I literally put a screenshot in my last reply to you where I say I like Gwyn. Do I like her with Azriel? No. But do I like her character? Yes. I’ve never posted hate about her. And no, theorizing that she might be morally gray or do something bad is not “hate” towards Gwyn.

Regardless, of course when I post things online I’m open to criticism. I have accepted criticism directed at me. I have apologized when I’ve made mistakes. I have also called out inappropriate or harmful posts when I’ve seen them from elriels.

But you know what’s not ok? The doxxing, bullying, and harassment I’ve faced from gwynriels and eluciens, much of which has stemmed from my posts about a theory that gwynriels now seem to think they can post about but I can’t.

Last point: I just find it hilarious that you’re calling out some elriels for wanting gwyn to be evil to keep her away from azriel (which again, I’ve only seen a handful of times), when there are scores of evil Elain theories from gwynriels out there that literally do the same thing. But ok, I guess people can only theorize that Elain is evil, but not gwyn. Got it.

[gimme-mor]

ACOTAR THINK PIECE: ELAIN ARCHERON, UNTOUCHABLE

*DISCLAIMER*

This will be a long post.

Please take the time to read this post in its entirety and truly reflect on the message I am trying to send before commenting. My goal is to use my background in Gender and Women’s Studies to deconstruct the comments I have seen on Tumblr and Twitter and bring awareness to the ACOTAR fandom.

The reason I am tagging “Elriel” in this post is to call attention to the arguments in the Elriel fandom that: weaponize Elain’s femalehood to shame real life people for their opinions about Elain’s character and her relationship with Lucien; victimize Elain’s character in fandom discussions; and coddle Elain’s character, which limits fandom discussions about her narrative development and prevents the ACOTAR fandom from holding Elain accountable for her actions and inactions in the same way that the fandom holds other characters accountable for their actions and inactions. It is for these reasons that I WILL NOT remove the “Elriel” tag from this post because all of the above points contribute to the toxic discourse surrounding Elain’s character.

I urge those who use these arguments to understand their implications, why they are problematic, regardless of intent, and reexamine their contributions to the ACOTAR fandom. I WILL NOT tolerate anyone who tries to twist my words and say I am attacking people and their personal shipping preferences. In fact, I AM CRITIQUING THE ARGUMENTS THEMSELVES NOT THE PEOPLE USING THE ARGUMENTS.

Also, I highly encourage the Elriel fandom to read this post because it addresses how the concept of choice as an argument enables arguments to exploit social justice and feminist languge in order to vilify Elucien shippers, among other problematic things.

Elain Archeron is one of the most polarizing characters in the ACOTAR fandom. Though opinions about Elain vary, arguments in the Elriel fandom cite society’s perception of traditional female characters in comparison to non-traditional female characters as the reason behind the hate, and this belief is used to provide an explanation as to why other characters in the series are favored over her. In the series, Elain is portrayed in a wholly positive light and this image carries over into the Elriel fandom, painting her character as a good and kind female who has been unfairly wronged and a victim of circumstances that were out of her control. When arguments in the Elriel fandom oppose other viewpoints in the fandom, they fall into one of three categories:

Category 1: Weaponize Elain’s femalehood to shame real life people for their opinions

Maybe people who hate Elain are just jealous of her in a weird way similar to when someone hates the pretty, nice, and charming girl in school just because she is too perfect

Disliking Elain is misogynistic

What happened to feminism? What happened to women supporting women? What happened to she can say no? All of that disappears the second you force Elain to be with Lucien

Elain antis are misogynistic

All Eluciens are Elain antis

Antis claiming they’re feminists when in reality they hate on Elain and Feyre but love Nesta

Elain antis are such sore losers. Y’all were that bunch of people who could not get over being rejected from hanging out with the cool kids so y’all are projecting your hatred towards pretty people now to get validation

I don’t get how Elain’s love for gardening equals boring for some people. I’m sorry your misogyny finds traditionally feminine activities boring

Why are you attacking a female? What did Elain do? Where are your feminist voices?

The fandom is misogynistic towards Elain

If people loved Elain they would ship Elriel

If you hate Elain it says a lot about your feelings toward women

If you hate Elain because she has no “development” then you must hate Azriel because otherwise you’re misogynistic

Eluciens are turned off by the idea of a woman that has the autonomy to reject a man for the simple reason that it is her choice

Eluciens are all about feminism and “it’s HER choice” until it comes down to females not wanting a male

Eluciens don’t respect Elain’s feelings when they ship her with someone that was part of her trauma and makes her feel uncomfortable

The way some Elucien shippers completely disregard how uncomfortable Elain is around Lucien is so hilariously not funny. Prioritizing being mates over Elain’s feelings is just regressive

It’s hard as a fan of Elain to see someone ship her with a person who makes her physically uncomfortable to be around. Wouldn’t you want both characters to be happy to be around each other

Imagine if SJM saw all the awful things her “stans” had to say about Elain

It’s true that we know comparatively little about her, but is she really boring or do you just not value stereotypically feminine traits?

So y’all are just gonna tell me you prefer Elucien over Elriel? Even though Lucien treats Elain as if she’s something that belongs to him? The only reason he wants to be with her is because she’s his mate, he doesn’t respect her, doesn’t treat her as his equal, even though that’s what mates should be? He doesn’t bother to look past what’s on the outside to see her for who she is. And Elain is obviously repulsed by the idea that she should belong to anyone or have no choice in who she can be with. Azriel is her friend and the only person who sees her quiet strength. He has so much faith in her, in her abilities; he’s the one who kept her company when no one else did, he’s the only one who bothered to see her for more than her brokenness. You’re going to tell me you still prefer Elucien over Elriel?

The more I see Gwynriels that ship Elucien out of their hate for Elain, the less I can understand Elain stans that ship Elucien. Pls Elain has made it very clear that she doesn’t want Lucien, why would you ship her with him? Do you hate her too? Smh

The real question would be, if you care and understand Elain why would you ship her with Lucien (where she canonically shrinks when he is near)?

People crying over Helion and Lucien’s mom not getting to be with each other and her being forced into a relationship she didn’t want, but also ship Elucien? Just say you hate Elain

When Elain’s book is out, Gwyn stans will look like clowns and I will laugh because they set her up by shipping her with Azriel just because they hate Elain. Watch them play the victims now because Elriels are clapping back the hate they’ve sent towards Elain

As romantic as wanting girl who is visibly uncomfortable around a guy who caused her trauma to end up with the said guy. Guess their standards for romance are in hell

Category 2: Victimize Elain’s character

Gwynriels only want Gwyn with Azriel because they despise Elain

Gwyn stans and Gwynriels are Elain antis

No one in the books dislike Elain, so why are there so many people who do?

Elain hasn’t done anything wrong or questionable to warrant the hate she gets

Not having Elain’s POV makes it easy for people to be swayed a certain way about her character if you already don’t relate to her in some way

It’s been years since this series came out and we haven’t gotten a lick of an Elain POV, but people still hate her for what? We don’t know her thoughts, dreams, or aspirations

We haven’t even had Elain’s perspective yet and people are passing these judgments off on her

Elain antis who say she’s boring are just cruel when she has obvious symptoms of PTSD like Feyre and Nesta

Gwyn is one of the most overhyped characters and that’s only because most people hate Elain and they couldn’t wait to find a random girl to ship Azriel with

Nesta was abusive to her sisters but Elain (who has only ever been kind) is painted as the villain

From the text we know that Elain is the epitome of feminine stereotypes (gentle, gardening, baking, non confrontational for the most part). Yet people still call her boring or deny that she has any interesting character traits?

You can’t love Nesta and hate Elain

People hate Elain because of internalized misogyny and lack of taste. All the girl does is tend to her garden and mind her business and they treat her worse than Tamlin

Does Gwyn deserve all this support? Of course yes! She is amazing! But where’s that support when Elain was in the same situation as she? Where’s that support for her right now? Why do they idolize Gwyn for her interactions with Azriel and hate Elain for having any interaction with him?

It’s not even a ship war anymore, they just hate Elain

People hate Elain for no reason

Some of y’all don’t like feminine traits and it shows

We know less about Eris and Helion but people don’t call them boring. Why would rejecting femininity make Elain more interesting?

Elain has had a lot forced upon her

The main reason I believe most people love Gwyn so much is to get Azriel away from Elain. It’s not a secret that Elain has been a widely hated character for years so suddenly we get a new female who has a minimal amount of interactions with Azriel and BOOM. New ship that once again doesn’t make sense (just like Azriel x Emerie after ACOFAS)

Elain hasn’t done something so terrible for her to get this hate. At this point some of you are just being misogynistic and you don’t want to accept it. Don’t call yourselves feminists and then say bs like this, it’s embarrassing. She’s pretty and everyone agreed to hate on her

Just a personal feeling, but I feel like a lot of the Elain hate stems from internalized misogyny. That to be a strong female lead, you need to pick up a sword and fight. That to be strong, you need to adapt traditionally masculine traits

Elain is feminine. She is beautiful. She loves to bake and garden. She is docile, quiet, observant, and a people-pleaser. All traditionally feminine traits. Yet for some reason, she’s like the worst in these people’s eyes?

I think also maybe a lot of people can’t relate to her femininity? That her being so beautiful and quiet doesn’t allow for the people who dislike her not to self-insert? Most of the hate stems from people not wanting Elain to be with Azriel. It’s mean, but maybe the people who hate Elain literally just can’t self-insert if they have a story and that’s why they’re vehemently against it?

Poor Elain. The Cauldron dealt her a bad deal. Upon emerging as Fae, she is immediately declared by Lucien as his mate, never mind that she was already engaged to a prick. Her love life is not good

It blows my mind how they really think that they can compare all the shit that Elain gets with some dumb jokes about Gwyn on Twitter (and yes, the “hate” towards her started mostly because Elriels are clapping back, it was bound to happen)

I would think of it as anti-feminist with Elain and Lucien because she has consistently stated that she does not want him so if she was forced to embrace the bond that would be taking away her right to have a choice but with Az she feels comfortable around so if they were mates then Elain would be happy and feel safe which again should be the priority for women to feel safe in their relationships with anything and to not be forced into any type of situation aka the mating bond in this

Category 3: Coddle Elain’s character

Elain has value the way she is, in all her domestic girly glory. Not every character has to be badass

We don’t speak of Elain’s flaws frequently because everyone else already speaks badly of her, mainly in an unfair way

There is definitely something deeper going on with Elain but by no means will she ever be evil or any less feminine. That goes against everything we already know about her

It’s ok to critique Elain because she needs growth but y’all keep forgetting the shit her and her sisters went through

The last “bad” thing Elain did in ACOTAR was not help Feyre when they were impoverished and I’m tired of people acting like she’s a terrible character when it was their father’s responsibility. It happened 4 books ago and Feyre has forgiven both Nesta and Elain

Elain’s character and the evil Elain theory are a great example of the trend where people only consider female characters interesting if they reject femininity

We don’t know enough to hate Elain

Many people want Elain to turn evil (which in my opinion seems to come from a place of internalized misogyny)

However we don’t tend to talk about her faults, at least not publicly, as that has been, and still is, done to death, and I--personally, at least--find it much more fun to theorise about potentially interesting aspects of the overall plot, than dwell on negatives

And ultimately, I would be shocked if Elain has a more karmically-charged story than Nesta, considering that Elain’s “wrongs” are so much less severe and bad than Nesta’s, and Elain has already apologized for them (or paid the price in other ways, like through what Graysen did)

I guess I also think Elain has suffered and been punished enough. I hope her story is about finding hope in terrible situations, and learning to love her new life, and choosing her own path after everything that has been done to her. I don’t think she needs to be punished anymore or face any additional trauma

Also, why is she being judged on her decisions as a human at all? Fae are monsters to humans! They enslaved them for thousands of years, and the Wall was erected to keep them out

Like I’m sorry, but think Elain would want to leave her ONLY FAMILY AND FRIENDS for the Spring Court where she has no one because--oh look, lots of flowers!--is the craziest thing I have ever heard

Her sisters are in the Night Court. Her nephew is in the Night Court. Her closest friends (Nuala and Cerridwen) are in the Night Court. Her love interest is in the Night Court. Her extended family is in the Night Court. Her home is in the Night Court

SJM isn’t going to keep two sisters together and split up the third. Especially not keep Feyre and Nesta together and separate Elain. They were either all going to end up in separate places, or together. Not 2 here and 1 there

Compared to the other female characters in the series, Elain is the only character whose femalehood is at the center of conversations; this is because arguments in the Elriel fandom fixate on it when discussing her character. While Elain, Feyre, Nesta, and Mor are all representations of white womanhood and white beauty, Elain epitomizes the most fragile version of white womanhood. It’s easy to blame society’s perception of traditional female characters in comparison to non-traditional female characters when it comes to the discourse surrounding Elain’s character because it: falls in line with the fixation on Elain’s femalehood to silence opposing viewpoints; is a simplistic explanation that fails to tackle the underlying issues with Elain as a character, the same issues that are downplayed in-universe; absolves Elain of her wrongdoings; prevents the ACOTAR fandom from holding Elain accountable for her actions and inactions within the series; and diminishes the impact Elain’s actions and inactions have on those around her. It’s not that Elain is hated in the fandom because she’s a traditional female character; it’s the fact that arguments in the Elriel fandom deflect a critical analysis of Elain’s character because she’s a traditional female character who embodies the ideal white woman in need of protection. White fans and white-aligned fans of color, especially white women, have a tendency to vehemently defend, gatekeep, and coddle white female characters in fandom; this makes it difficult for other fans to engage in critical discussions about these white female characters because they’re viewed as flawless and all around perfect characters despite evidence to the contrary. Since Elain is viewed positively by the other characters in the series, it has rendered her character untouchable to any perceived slight or criticism in fandom discussions because those negative opinions challenge what has been said about her character thus far. And as a result, her character has been placed on a pedestal and implicitly hailed as the epitome of white womanhood; and when she’s criticized, it’s seen as a direct attack against white womanhood. Arguments in the Elriel fandom: exploit feminist language and perpetuate white feminist tactics under the guise of defending Elain’s character; center Elain in conversations about female oppression in the ACOTAR world and uphold white feminist ideologies in their critique of ACOTAR’s patriarchal society; and use the fragile white woman narrative to victimize Elain in Lucien’s presence, playing into racial biases that are associated with white supremacy’s defense of white womanhood.

Feminism is a social movement that seeks to promote equality and equity to all genders, and feminists work toward eradicating gender disparities on a macro-level, in addition to challenging gender biases on a micro-level. As feminism became more mainstream, a flat and oversimplified version of feminism emerged: mainstream feminism. The mainstream feminist movement is meant to represent all women, but rarely does it center conversations around issues that concern most women. The problem with mainstream feminism is that it’s just a popularized version of white feminism. White feminism has relied extensively on an individualized understanding of women’s oppression, exclusively from the lens of privileged white women. White feminism only focuses on the oppression experienced by white, able-bodied, affluent, educated, cishet women; and it views gender as the key mode of privileged white women’s oppression, isolated from the privileges granted by their other social identities. White women can be and are oppressed under the patriarchy but only because they are women; their identity as women does not exempt them from the privileges granted by their whiteness. The term white feminist does not mean any feminist who is white, but refers to feminists who prioritize the concerns of privileged white women as though they are representative of all women. However, the term is not exclusive to white people. Because white feminism is so pervasive, people of other racial and ethnic backgrounds often buy into white feminism, believing that if they work hard enough, they may be able to reap its rewards.

Just like white feminism, mainstream feminism only recognizes the identity of being a woman, assumes that all women share common experiences of gender oppression, fails to address other social identities in relation to overlapping systems of oppression, and disregards privilege in relation to various social identities. Just like white feminism, mainstream feminism is palatable because it doesn’t seek to challenge the systems in place, instead its goal is to succeed within them. Essentially, mainstream feminism and white feminism are extensions of performative feminism. Performative feminism is a type of performative activism that’s used to describe feminist views that are surface level and solely for the benefit of one type of person. It’s a pretense which often has nothing to do with genuine activism. Arguments in the Elriel fandom normalize and promote performative feminism because the topic of feminism is only referenced when discussing Elain. This indicates that these arguments are engaging in disingenuous discourse to push a personal agenda within the ACOTAR fandom, and it becomes more apparent when they use white feminist tactics to shut down opposing viewpoints:

White feminists weaponize and exploit feminist language to silence the opinions of other women, especially when they’re called out for their problematic behaviors

White feminists use the phrase “Women supporting women” to defend other white feminists who exhibit problematic behaviors instead of holding them accountable 

White feminists weaponize phrases like “Women supporting women” and “You just hate women” to attack other women who disagree with them on any given topic

White feminists use phrases like “All women face challenges” and “Stop pitting women against each other” to sidestep conversations about privilege

White feminists divert conversations away from privilege and towards the Trauma Olympics to equate their struggles to the oppression of marginalized people 

White feminists skirt around the realities of other forms of oppression and discrimination, downplaying the experiences of marginalized people

White feminists diminish or ignore the ways in which gender oppression affects other marginalized people

White feminists paint those they harmed as aggressive, mean, or divisive when confronted with the ways they have harmed a marginalized group

White feminists deflect criticism by focusing on the anger or emotions being expressed rather than the issue that is being discussed, invalidating the concerns of marginalized people

White feminists speak over marginalized voices in an attempt to sound “woke”

White feminists get defensive and insist there’s no way they could be a part of the problem because of what they’ve done to help marginalized groups already 

White feminists say they don’t see color in an attempt to obscure racial issues that need to be addressed

White feminists center and victimize themselves in conversations about racism, which derails necessary conversations from taking place

White feminists who are white weaponize the intersectionality of their race and gender to avoid accountability

Feminism is not meant to be approached from an individualistic perspective nor is it only about addressing the experiences of privileged white women, it involves addressing the intersections of race, class, gender, sexuality, (dis)ability, and other social identities as well; and it involves addressing how these social identities relate to privilege. Moreover, feminism is not about women upholding complete loyalty to other women because of a shared gender identity, and to claim that it does implies that women should be held to different emotional standards than men. If men are able to dislike and criticize other individual men, real or fictional, without their characters being compromised, why aren’t women granted that same privilege?

It’s clear that SJM set up the ACOTAR world to mirror a patriarchal society, and that the imbalance of power between males and females stems from sexism. Arguments in the Elriel fandom analyze the ACOTAR world through a feminist lens to show how ACOTAR’s patriarchal society, to which the mating bond is innately tied, contributes to female oppression and limits their agency. When choice and free will are emphasized as part of Elain’s arc, they imply that Elain, through the mating bond, experiences female oppression under ACOTAR’s patriarchal society because of her identity as a female with that identity being the focal point of her oppression in the world. Elain is one of the most privileged characters in the ACOTAR world: she’s High Fae; she’s the sister of the High Lord and High Lady of the Night Court, which gives her access to wealth and political influence because of that connection; she’s able-bodied; she was magically blessed by the Cauldron; and she lives in Velaris, a place that grants females autonomy and power because of the beliefs of Rhysand and Feyre. Arguments in the Elriel fandom trivialize female oppression in the ACOTAR world because they disregard the fact that Elain’s privileges prevent her from experiencing female oppression in the same way that other marginalized females in the world do. The mating bond being one such example because those around Elain are not forcing the bond on her, instead they’re allowing Elain to reach a decision about the bond for herself; a privilege that other marginalized females in the world probably wouldn’t have. Just because Elain has endured hardships in her life and is a female in a patriarchal society, they do not erase the privileges she holds within the ACOTAR world. The failure to include Elain’s privileges in discussions about Elain being a female in a patriarchal society feeds into white feminist ideologies because white feminism operates from a very narrow perspective; it doesn’t take other intersecting identities into account when it examines gender oppression, leaving no room for discussions about privilege (or lack thereof) in relation to those intersecting identities. When discussing oppression in hierarchical societies, it’s imperative that privilege is also included in the conversation because privilege and oppression are not mutually exclusive; they equally affect the ways in which people navigate those societies through their social identities.

Rather than attributing Elain’s uncomfortability to her new life as a Fae female or the mating bond itself and her trauma to the Cauldron, the King of Hybern, or Ianthe, they’re placed on Lucien to cast his character in a negative light. Moreover, fandom discussions portray Lucien as a possessive character to further emphasize Elain’s discomfort despite the inaccuracy of this characterization in canon. Arguments in the Elriel fandom play into racial biases when it comes to Lucien (a male character of color) because they mischaracterize his character in order to victimize Elain (a white female character), placing her character in the role of the white damsel in distress. In Western society, the concept of womanhood has been conceptualized from a Eurocentric perspective with femininity and feminine attributes favoring white women. It’s the idea that a certain type of femininity is only inherent to white women as they are seen as the embodiment of an ideal womanhood. White womanhood has been a symbol of innocence and purity, and white women have been viewed as fragile beings in need of protection. The reason white womanhood functions within white supremacy is because it’s the same idea that has motivated white men to kill and beat black and brown men. The so-called protection of white women has been used as a justification for the horrific violence committed by white men because black and brown men were stereotyped as aggressive and seen as a threat to the virtue of white women. The white damsel in distress trope considered white women as worthy of protection because of their perceived innocence and purity; women of color were not granted that same treatment because they did not fit into the ideal image of womanhood. Over the years, this trope became a means for white women to exercise limited power in a patriarchal society with white women weaponizing their status as the damsel much to the detriment of black and brown men. It’s through the white damsel in distress trope that white supremacy sustains its dominance in Western society. The misrepresentation of characters of color in fandom, the dismissal of their importance to the overall story, and using them as tools in arguments centered around white characters are the foundation of fandom racism; they’re examples of how racism moves silently in fandom spaces. Instead of examining their behavior and taking constructive criticism from fans of color, white fans will often double down on their bigotry and center their uncomfortability in the conversation when confronted with their complicity in fandom racism. White fans expect fans of color to swallow fandom racism in its many forms in order to not ruin the experience of fandom, dismissing the fact that racism is prevalent in nearly every aspect of society. This mentality ensures that no one is held accountable for the harm they caused and alienates fans of color in fandom spaces.

To reiterate what I mentioned in my first think piece: terms like “oppression”, “the right to choose”, “feminist”, “feminism”, “anti-feminist”, “anti-feminism”, “internalized misogyny”, “misogyny”, “misogynist”, “sexist”, “sexism”, “racist”, “racism”, “classist”, “classism”, “discrimination”, and “patriarchy” are all used in specific ways to draw attention to the plight of marginalized people and challenge those who deny the existence of systems of oppression. Yet these words and their meanings can be twisted to attack, exclude, and invalidate people with differing opinions on any given topic. When social justice and feminist terms are thrown around antagonistically and carelessly to push a personal agenda, it becomes clear that these terms are being used to engage in disingenuous discourse and pursue personal validation rather than being used out of any deep-seated conviction to dismantle systemic oppression. Being an ally, activist, or feminist is not an identity, it’s a practice. It requires: ongoing self-reflection; holding ourselves accountable; listening to marginalized people; educating ourselves; dismantling implicit biases; challenging those around us who are exhibiting problematic behaviors; and action behind our words.

It’s important to be aware of the language that is used within the fandom when defending or critiquing characters and ships. It’s also important to question how an argument is framed and why it’s framed the way that it is to critically examine the intent behind that argument: is it used as a tool to push a personal agenda that reinforces problematic behaviors, or is it used as an opportunity to share, learn, enlighten, and educate?

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Tagging: @spell-cleavers @bookofmirth @m0bulidae @ilya-boltagon

[hacawijo]

Oh YEAH 😂 We’re Allowed to Just Support Our Ships Because We Like Them (Or, some reasons why I WANT Elriel to be endgame)

Tagging alternate ships because I want to hear from others why they love the ships they love!

Last night I asked myself a question I haven’t asked about a ship in a really long time: Why do I ship it (Elriel)? 

I think that fans and shippers get so mired in evidence and proving that something will or won’t happen that we forget to sometimes just think about why we are in fact so passionate about the ships we like. Don’t get me wrong, I love evidence and theory and proof and close-reading posts - I’ve made a bunch, I’ll continue to make them, and I love reading them - but I’ve forgotten that it doesn’t always have to be about proving myself right or others wrong or about the great conversations/debates I have with other respectful, whip-smart shippers. 

So, this post isn’t really about why I THINK Elriel will happen, it’s about why I WANT Elriel to happen. And I would love to hear the same from others about their own ships (Elriel, Gwynriel, Elucien, Vucien, or otherwise!).

1. As far as I can tell, it’s what the characters want. I really love Elain and Azriel. I think that Elain is different from pretty much every other Maas heroine and I’m always interested to see how she reacts to things. I also admire that she embraces small acts of kindness and thoughtfulness over grand gestures. I think that Elain’s love language is often thankless, and that’s something I want to learn more about. I also love Azriel. I especially love his relationships with Feyre and Nesta, and that, similarly to how I feel about Elain, I’m never exactly sure how he will react to something. 

Setting aside those things, and many other little bursts of personality and character that I’ve enjoyed, I also think that both Elain and Azriel have suffered greatly in their lives, and I just want them to be happy. From everything I’ve read, it seems like the thing that is going to make both of them happy is if they are able to spend their lives together as partners. 

Don’t get me wrong, I deeply care about Lucien and Gwyn as well (more thoughts on their characters in other posts will be coming). I want Lucien to be chosen and to feel valued and essential to another person’s life, and I want him to have a real home. I want Gwyn to continue to have agency over her life and claim the things she wants to claim (whether they be skills or friendships or recognition or what-have-you). But, as I see it, the scenario in which the most characters whom I love will be happy in the longterm is if Elain and Azriel are together. Which leads me to number...

2. I want Lucien and Gwyn to have their own stories, and as it stands right now, there is no way for Elucien or Gwynriel not to have a bunch of space taken up by Elriel. Angst has been established and it will need to be resolved before any endgames beside Elriel can happen. I don’t want the first half of Elucien or Gwynriel’s story to low-key be about Azriel and Elain. I want Gwyn to avoid that car crash altogether and have something totally new and her own. Obviously it’s more complicated for Lucien - he will be involved in Elriel no matter what because he is Elain’s mate. But from what I can tell, Elain just doesn’t want to be with him, and I don’t believe that Lucien wants someone who doesn’t want to be with him (again, I’m not trying to prove anything in THIS post, this is just what I think based on my readings of the books 🙃). 

What’s more, I’m definitely not convinced that Lucien has any feelings for Elain beyond the mating bond - I don’t think they’re compatible. I think Lucien is good at talking to and figuring people out and that he likes to banter and flirt and be in the middle of things. I think it’s possible that pre-cauldron Elain could have vibed with that, but post-cauldron Elain is a different person. She is often content to listen and love and take up her own little corner of the world (and it’s not just being meek, she stands up to Nesta and PROTECTS that little corner of the world when it is threatened both then and when it comes to danger from outside forces). I just think Elain and Lucien would each be happier with someone else, and I think that Elain’s choice should be respected, and it’s pretty clear to me that she’s choosing Azriel right now.

You might be saying that Feysand’s early life was steeped in the angst and  resolution of Tamlin and Feyre’s relationship, but here’s why it seems different to me. Feyre and Rhys’s relationship felt so separate from Feyre’s relationship with Tamlin because he was an antagonist in that story. In this case, any kind of love triangle/rhombus/word cloud is going to be tangled and far messier because all of the characters involved are beloved. And, Feysand had 2.5 whole books to build their story - whichever of the couples I’ve just talked about that end up endgame will pretty much only have one book and second- and third-hand hints that range from fairly numerous (Elriel) to hardly developed at all. 

3. I want a love that flies in the face of the mating bond. I’m kind of over the mating bond thing. I think that I loved Feysand because Rhys and Feyre grew to love each other alongside their bond. Feyre fell in love with Rhys without knowing that she was his mate, and the mating bond was like a fulfillment of that love, that love was not really a fulfillment of the mating bond. Cassian and Nesta actually feels like a much more traditional mating bond story, in that they were deeply connected from minute one. The angst in that relationship came from Nesta’s inner turmoil and need for growth and independence to know and accept herself.

I’m ready for a bond that doesn’t work! I’m ready for some great people (who are apparently very different from a lot of previous nobility and significant figures in the courts of Prythian when it comes to respecting agency and being kind) who don’t let the cauldron dictate their lives to them. I don’t want to watch Lucien and Elain succumb to the bond, and I don’t really want Azriel to be chosen because of a mating bond with Gwyn. I want him to be chosen above a mating bond. And I want Elain to do the choosing! 

4. I want to see Elriel because I think a relationship between them would be wholly different from Feysand and Nessian - and I don’t think that’s as true with Elucien and Gwynriel. I think that Lucien is more similar to Rhys and Cassian attitude-wise than Azriel and I think that Gwyn is more similar to Feyre and Nesta attitude-wise than Elain. I want to read about a love between two people who aren’t sassy and flirty and bold. Not that I don’t LOVE those ships as well, but I like it when Sarah does something a little different. Elorcan, for example, is one of my absolute favorite ships of all-time partially because it feels totally different from everything else in Throne of Glass (albeit in a different way). 

I want to see how someone as kind and thoughtful and modest and romantic as Elain handles her intense lust and the massive potential for conflict and harm in pursuing a relationship with Azriel (and to be clear I don’t want to see her treat Lucien like trash, I want to see her use strengths that belong only to her to prevent harm that might have otherwise occurred if the bond was between Lucien and another). I want to see how someone as closed-off, controlled, cynical, and often melancholy as Azriel handles desire that contradicts his loyalties and the qualities on which he prides himself, and how he handles someone who sees him- really sees him, and just makes him un-complicatedly happy. 

5. Also, as I said,  I’m not going to get far into evidence or proof, but I do think the bread crumbs are pointing toward Elriel, and I do like to be right lol

Thank you for reading, as always I want comments and dialogue and thank you for being fans of these books with me!