#which is so bad like its common sense that we dont send death threats because of a kids book

[delicate-sketch]

I just want to say that i did not vibe with tsats and thats fine i am not the devil for this there is another pjo books that i dont vibe with too i like solangelo i like will solace and nico di angelo i just didnt like the writing and the story I did not have a good time and thats fine i am happy that other ppl have a good time i can see how this book can be positive for queer kids nothing is black and white there is positive and negative cool cool

[zenosanalytic]

Great Beasts of Legend: Centaurs, Sirens and Chimaera: The Greeks and th...

I know I’ve posted this lecture by Dr. Jeremy McInerney before, but I was watching it again(third time; really love this one uwu) and at 41:55 he starts a discussion of a boundaries-based reading of Centaurs(good target for that given the melding/muddying of boundary btw animal and man Centaurs represent[1]), beginning with the Herakles, Deianira, Nessos Myth that I feel he doesn’t quite hit though he makes/brings up other great points and it made me want to write a short little thing about why this myth, specifically, is really open to such a reading:

Ok so the basic outline: Herakles and Deianira are traveling, they come to the river Evinos where Nessos[2], the Centaur, is selling his services as a living ferry(ppl sit on him and he carries them across). Herakles, of course, decides to swim across and pays Nessos to carry Deianira across. While doing so, Nessos attempts to rape her, Deianira calls for help, and Herakles whips out his bow and arrows dipped in Hydra’s blood, and shoots Nessos dead. As he dies but before Herakles reaches them, Nessos tells Deianira to take a vial of his blood(sometimes blood mixed with his semen). The story splits interestingly here, so remember this point for later. Years down the road, Herakles is off in some part of Greece partying in celebration of yet another city he’s plundered, and he sends a train of new slaves taken from said city-plundering back home, along with a messenger with an off-hand request to Deianira that she send his favorite cloak along cuz he plans to keep partying for quite a long while. This is another point of ambiguity in the story and its retellings so remember it, too. She steeps his cloak in water mixed with the vial of Nessos’s blood, sends it along and, while the poison doesnt kill Herakles cuz he’s part god and Hydra’s poisonous blood isn’t powerful enough to do that, it DOES cause him such enormous, unending pain that he builds his own funeral pyre and burns himself alive, apotheosizing into a god in the process.

So, regarding Boundaries:

Nessos, obvsl, is a physical manifestation of the close and ever-present boundary between humans and beasts; btw self-control and indulgence; btw “civilized” behavior and “uncivilized”, as discussed above, and particularly of the threat of rape Greek men present to Greek women.

This story involves a River, a physical boundary

Rivers are ALSO what separate the world of the living from the world of the dead to the Greeks, and this is a story ABOUT TWO DEATHS, both tied directly TO a River(one taking place in it, during the act of crossing it; the other a long-term effect of that event[but also Herakles’s hubris, though most versions, being written for men, don’t emphasize that totally obvs aspect of it]).

Not only that, it’s LITERALLY the story of Herakles’s apotheosis: of how he comes to finally transcend the boundary between God and Mortal which he has straddled his whole life.

Herakles is celebrating the sack of a city, ie, his violation&destruction of the Boundaries defining said city, when he dies. Greek cities are often protected by female divinities(Athena usually), so it’s yet another symbol of rape.

So Split 1: In most versions, the reason Nessos gives for why she should take his blood is that it is a powerful love potion that will ensure Herakles remains faithful to her if his eye ever strays. BUT, also in most versions, this is a lie and he’s secretly trying to poison Herakles, though how would he know Herakles’ arrows are poisoned with Hydra-blood? I remember reading a version where he presents it to her AS POISON, explaining about the Hydra, but I cant find any mention of it online, so maybe my brain’s just making it up(or maybe this was the Hercules TV Show version X|).

Split 2: BUT BUT, while in most version Deianira sends the cloak out of desperation to keep him faithful(and of course there’s a particular slave girl in the train she’s warned about just so all of this can be EXTRA the fault of women, rather than Herakles for being a giant asshole like he always is), in other versions she sends it OUT OF VENGEANCE, TO FUCK HIM UP because Herakles is being a giant asshole, wrecking up Greece, partying as much as he likes, flaunting his rapes and his victims in her face(this is VERY RELEVANT given the nature of other versions of this story), and leaving her to run his household alone while ordering her around like she’s a slave rather than his Wife.

These are mutually exclusive: she cannot be both seeking to punish him, and trying, in anguished desperation, to keep him faithful to her[3].

Herakles in this story, as is ALWAYS THE CASE IN ALL HIS STORIES, is flaunting the boundaries of Proper Behavior, in this case those defining a happy and successful marriage(IE Hera’s Domain; which you’d THINK would be kind of relevant, given the deep narrative connection between Hera and Herakles and her quickness to anger regarding marriage violations, yet it somehow perennially goes unmentioned), and getting punished for it.

Now here’s an ADDED kicker. There’s a version of this story were Herakles initiates the conflict. one day he visits the house of Deianira’s father, Dexamenus, and while a guest, rapes her. Dexamenus can’t fight Herakles, of course, but he demands by the gods and tradition that Herakles marry Deianira to “repair” the injury(WE LIVE IN HELL!), and Herakles agrees. After he leaves to prepare for the wedding, a local Centaur, Eurytion(name meaning “Widely Honored”) visits Dexamenus and proposes to marry Deianira himeself(you know: without the whole BEING HER RAPIST thing), and Dexamenus complies. Herakles arrives a few days later, kills Eurytion, and sees that their marriage is carried out. Presumably in this version, the blood poisoning the cloak would be Eurytion’s.

What I’ve tried to get across here is that, among other things, there are readings of this myth were Herakles is the bad guy and Deianira the agent of divine punishment, if not the actual Protagonist. And those readings suggest certain ideas we would be prone to consider “modern” about the agency of women, consent, personal and social boundaries, morality, Greek ~Heroic Masculinity~, and yes even Centaurs, might not have been so alien and “anachronistic” to the ancient Greek mind as we tend to think.

But anyway, even if you think that particular part of my little argument here is total Bunk, I hope I’ve managed to get across that Deianira and the Cloak is a myth Absolutely LOUSY with the theme of Boundaries, what they mean, what it means to Cross them, and the Consequences for which you Cross, when, how, and plain just choosing to cross them in the first place. It’s a really great example for him to suggest for this particular topic, and it really inspired me quite a lot today, and I just wish there was a lecture online where he developed it further uwu

[1]And not only that, but of course owning horses was a common sign of aristocratic status, and trading horses a common aristocratic activity(this is one way you know Hesiod’s claims of poverty are a put-on; his family breeds and sells horses). I feel like it’s pretty well understood that Centaurs are in someway a commentary and meditation upon the nature of Greek masculinity, on the capacity for violent cruelty and wanton appetite Greeks inculcated men into beside all the talk of civilized society, but I also feel it’s less well understood how open they also are to a similar reading regarding the appetites and barbaric capacities specifically of the upper classes of Greek society.

[2]In some versions Nessos and Herakles actually have a history, and the whole incident is Nessos’s attempt at vengeance. There is another story, where Herakles visits a centaur who is his friend named Pholos, and a gang of nearby Centaurs(I like to think they were Rowdy Teens myself u_u) smell the wine they’re drinking and crash the party to share some. Herakles, being Herakles, of course immediately begins killing them for the perceived insult, which inevitably leads NOT ONLY to Pholos dying(cuz Herakles isn’t careful and shoots him too, or in other vers bcuz he refuses to so much as retrieve his arrows from the bodies due to concerns with “pollution” from the corpses, and Pholos cuts himself on one of the arrows), but ALSO the poisoning, and eventual death, of Chiron, who was one of Pholos’s neighbors and who Herakles accidentally knicked while wildly chasing down and shooting the interlopers. Nessos is one of these Centaur teens, and the only centaur in the whole situation to survive (:T

[3]Which, btw, the whole “faithful” thing doesnt make much sense(even though it pops up regularly in Greek Myth), because her “competitor” in these versions is a slave. These next sentences are going to be gross and awful, but in the society which told these stories male slave-owners already had unrestricted sexual access to their slaves and, beyond that, I’ve never read a single example in Greek or Roman sources of a slave being legitimized and married as a wife(which doesnt mean such examples dont exist; I’m an amateur). So the idea that a slave could threaten Deianira’s position as Herakles’s wife seems very dubious to me(as does the general trope of slave women as threats to wives in Greek stories). Again: this is all super-awful, but it’s something complicating the traditional presentation of the myth, which is rarely addressed because most academics writing for a general audience are super-loath to deal with classical slavery as the awful, body and soul crushing institution which it was.

[carmineclock]

Dead Man Blues

Doc Scratch 4:28 PM

Its been an hour or so since your big meeting with the others, hopefully things have cooled down somewhat since then. You'd like to think you kept it quite calm and tasteful, despite your overall annoyance. Most of this time you spent updating your journal. You really have to do something about all these journals, its not safe to keep so many. And yet... With a sigh you set your pen aside. Time to do yet more damage control. You still think theres a chance you can get through to Trace, though perhaps you might be as bad as Clover in taht regard. Hoping is one thing, some men just dont change. Still, you make your way down to the holding cells. Perhaps your chat with Trace just needed a more dire backdrop. A broken arm and a cold concrete room with metal bars could be just what the Doctor ordered. Hoo hoo.

Trace 9:01 PM

Dire backdrop is an understatement. Your arm is long swollen, wrapped carefully in your shirt to give it some stability. You know a bit of first aid, but that is surprisingly difficult when it's your own arm and the only means you got available are what you have on your person. The new wound on your chest is just as aching, red and bloody with a hint of gold. You may have managed to pass out for a few hours, but you could hardly call that sleep, especially with that nightmare. Her body, stabbed and strung up - not Aradia's, but Nepeta's. A message to the one closest to her - Fin, angryy setting fire to your very self. The images linger, even long after you finally come to. And then the nightmare after you wake up - Snowman and how she dragged Fin in for your mutual punishment. How she used your wedding rings to violently erase the tattoo on your chest marking your love and relationships. When Scratch enters, you're wide awake, as much as you loathe it. Your mind still feels foggy and worlds away, definitely not prepared for a talk with him.

Doc Scratch 2:28 AM

You study him as you walk in, taking note of the remnants of Snowmans lesson. As graceful as she is deadly, as always. The gold makes a nice addition in your opinion. You take a chair from the nearby table and move it to in front of the bars in silence. After you moment you sit backwards with your arms resting over the back of the chair sit down normally, like a gentleman. This isnt an interrogation, or a call for confession, its just a conversation. "So, lets have it out, Trace. Whats this Droog business really all about. Dont you realize what youve cost yourself?"

Trace 9:51 AM

It never not feels like an interrogation with Scratch. You look up and watch him as he gets comfortable, then stare off to the side when he speaks. The muscles in your jaw tense, and when you reply, your hoarse and cracking voice clearly shows your exhaustion and pain. "Sir.. Do we really need to do this now? I'm not exactly the best for a talk right now and I'm really not too keen on netting me another scar for mouthing off..." Of course, you're aware he wouldn't have it any other time then when you're broken and at your wit's end.

Doc Scratch 11:27 AM

"If you're worried about your mouth, then I suggest you keep a civil tongue. I'm not concerned, though. Theres a kind of freeing honesty that cement walls and metal bars bring that can be found nowhere else. At this point, I would rather you speak freely, its just us now." Just the two of you. Man to man, or whatever Trace can be considered. Its an interesting thought, his classification may change as his DNA did. You'll have to look into that later. For now, your eyes are solely on him. His broken body, his pain. "Tell me true, Trace. I want to hear it. All of it. I wont punish you for speaking truthfully when asked. Its lies I hate the most."

Trace 3:03 PM

You give him a sour smile. You'll believe it when you see it. "What this is about, you really gotta ask?" Feels like you already talked plenty enough about this, and you doubt you got anything else to say that could placate him. Only plenty of frustration that has built up over everything, and you're way too tired to filter your words. Lets see who of the two of you is going to regret that more. "I.. am sorry that any of this ever reflected back on you, Nepeta or any of the Felt. It should never have been anything but personal. Which, I realize...  there's not really a personal in this outfit, is there?" you begin, actually honestly. "This... it was nothing more than a brawl between two guys heated up on a little too much emotion. But then this bastard.. abducted Nepeta, tortured and abused her, and then me. Cause he was pissed he got decked in the face. And he kept going, provoking us again and again, paralyzing her, seducing another, hurting us, as a whole, again and again. How could you expect me to do just nothing? You've been sending a signal, to them and to us, that they can just pick members of this very house off the street and do with us what they want." You try to sit up properly to face him better, wincing from the pain shooting through your arm again. "How has this not been a war yet for fuck's sake? How come Snowman can take the god damn white queen hostage, but we sit idle when the Crew come to pick us apart bit by bit? How come Snowman can take the god damn white queen hostage, but we sit idle when the Crew come to pick us apart, bit by bit?"

Doc Scratch 6:17 PM

You sit in silence, letting him say what hes going to say. You dont blame him for his views, and if anything, this lashing out may prove beneficial to you. No matter what happens from now on, Droog will have the reminder in the back of his mind. Certainly he wont forget it. Idly, you pull at the edge of your gloves, nodding every so often through his heated speech. Well, hes partially right on certain fronts. It really should have been war by now, whether you wanted it to be or not. The crew have gotten bolder and bolder, could it be your fault? Through inaction, have you allowed the crew more purchase on this slippery slope than you'd intended? "To start off, I'll answer your question. The reason it has not been war yet is because we did not have the numbers to win a war." You let out a silent sigh. "In truth, I'd hoped to collect our full set before provoking the Crew into an all out battle. I dont know how many wars you've seen, Trace, but I've seen enough to know that as much as you and all the others may want to go to war, young men that you are, we are not in a favored position for it. The Crew will always have the love of the common people, they built this city, and those that reside here are their kin. They have the better defenses, and most importantly, they have magic. True magic, the likes of which I cant begin to match." You pause to stand, arms folded behind your back as you pace, speaking more to the open air than to Trace now.

"Snowman is an army in her own right, its folly to compare anything or anyone to her. This little brawl you've had with Diamonds, its beyond reason and a waste of resources besides. If you were provoked into action, then you're a fool, because thats what Diamonds wanted from you. But more than that, you've allowed him to take the higher ground. The city is going to bleed now, I'll see to that, but you've allowed Diamonds to make it personal. And a man on a revenge mission doesnt care for the ruin he causes. I did not take what I've taken of this city for the last fourty years just to see it burned by some self righteous bastard in an Armani tuxedo." Another sigh, louder this time. You rub your temple, pausing in your pacing to look back at him. "Provoking. Abusing. Hurting us. All of us. You're right on that front. What one of us suffers, we all suffer. It was my mistake. I took this for play, the usual violence between men at odds, petty revenge for the sake of sleeping better." “But no, this has gotten well and truly out of hand. And its too late to go back. You’ve signed us up for a a war we were not prepared for, against an enemy whose eyes you’ve spit in, and now you say it should have been sooner. Hmph. Maybe you’re right. I dont hear the heckling of those underneath me, but it would only make sense that you do. So, then, its to be war. Do you have any plans for this war you’ve longed for, Trace? Any soldiers for the army? Connections to supplies and trades? Or did you expect that all you had to do was start it, and that I would finish it?”

Trace 8:05 PM

Well, obviously, you don't have any of these. You didn't plan for a war, let alone prepare for it. This was a selfish and careless act of revenge and he knows that. You're slowly starting to realize that you feel more bewildered about Nepeta's reaction than the prospect of war. This life has already been hell and you're tired of playing along. How little you care about Scratch's achievements and goals. Still, that is not an answer to give your boss and, unfortunately, owner. You close your eyes and think. The least you owe the others is to try  And if you've doomed all of you to die and burn, maybe you can at least rip a big hole into the crew. "..How much longer is he gonna have the favor of the common people if he's burning them? If he lashes out without remose and care, use it against them. With fires burning purple, it's not hard to besmirch their name. You have sucked the people dry under threat of violence and torture if they don't pay up. If you lack manpower, offer then alternatives. The crew is torching Felt warehouses. If it's supplies we lack, take theirs. We may be lacking time to prepare, but so do they. It's not too late to gain the upper hand."

Doc Scratch 1:40 PM

You stand and listen as he rattles off his ideas. Theyre not all without merit, but theyre naive, blunt, though its something you've come to expect. How could he possibly have known what he was getting himself, and the rest of the Felt, into. "Hes not burning them, he's burning us. True, it was careless, but Droog wont stay careless. Hes distraught over his daughters death, but he wont stay that way forever. He has as at least as much of a tactical mind as I do, he was built for war." You run a hand over your head, eyes closed in thought, trying not to imagine plumes of purple smoke eating their way through the Felt manor. Purple and green clash too much, it would be hideous. "I have ways of retaking the people, though its not the dregs of society that I'm worried about. All  I need is a shiny coin and a loaf of bread to win their loyalty back. We need to spread out. We need bases of operation throughout the city, safe places that arent glaring green mansions on a hilltop. If the Crew want war, we have to play their game." Yes, this is sounding more like a plan every passing second. You almost get carried away, before remembering where you are. This is no time to get caught up in nostalgia. "You know, it would be much easier planning if we had our trackers back. You and Fin have skills that will be of paramount importance coming very soon. Yet, I hesitate to bring you into the fold. Why should I trust that you can stay your hand? That your loyalty to this organization will trump your lust for revenge? You've proven the exact opposite is the case. Give me a reason why I shouldn't just let you sit down here and rot until the war is over with."

Trace 7:47 PM

Hey, can't blame you for trying, considering your situation. The night in here didn't exactly allow you to do your homework. Neither does it help with the next question. You look at him, tired as you are, trying to muster up the energy to defend yourself. Can't say you're, heh, dying to prove your loyalty to him, but wasting away down here in this cell doesn't seem like a solution either. "I... can't live without this organization. And neither can those that I care about. I know that my actions didn't exactly show it, but I want to do what I can to help it succeed and keep us all safe where possible." You'd like to assure him that your thirst for revenge is well-quenched - and for now it is. But should anything happen to Nepeta and Fin in this war you've apparently summoned, things could get ugly really fast. You won't tell him that. He's probably well aware. You'd like to not have to come to that though. "You gave the reason yourself. We're good at what we can do, and without us, this is gonna be much harder to deal with. Sure, it's a risk for you, but I'd be the one out there, risking my neck. It's my blood they're after. I'm not expecting your trust. I'm sure if you send me out there again, you'll be keeping a close eye on me, until I'll maybe have proven myself someday. Not sure what else I can give you besides my word, and I don't think that's much worth to you right now."

Doc Scratch 1:35 PM

"Hmm, its true enough." You sit back down, leaning back as you think. If you were a lesser man, you might consider handing him over to the crew and suing for peace. That would only be a short term fix, though, and probably cause more problems than itd solve. Not to mention youre loathe to lose one piece of the set. "In truth, Trace, I dont blame you for your actions. Not fully. Droog brought his suffering upon himself. We're just lucky he was good enough to burn all the  evidence." "At the very least you'll be going back to work soon, though as far away from Fin as possible. Perhaps Crowbar can take up the handle of your keeper. I cant have a mad dog running around doling out a childs version of vigilante justice." "For now, though, youll enjoy these accommodations. Im just having your room prepared."

Trace 1:48 PM

You should probably feel relieved at that response, could have gone much worse, after all. But the feeling of anxiety and dread keeps lingering. "I guess that's only fair." You lean back as well, which sends another pain shooting through your arm. A quiet hiss escapes you. Cursed thing. "Before you leave.. with all due respect, not trying to tell you what to do, but I don't think you'd find having me lose my arm or my life to an infection practical..."

Doc Scratch 1:55 PM

You were aleady on your way out when he makes his request. Now you pause, and turn slightly. "Does it hurt? Good. Its supposed to. Someone will be down soon to tend to it. Think on your mistakes, and how you can do better in the future." With that, you take your leave, closing and locking the door behind you.