#which i think should illustrate even to those who do not like jgy why this attitude can be harmful

[lgbtlunaverse]

It's not that NMJ doesn't understand what going undercover means.

I think what some people get wrong about the nieyao conflict specifically in regards to the wen spy thing is that they assume nie mingjue doesn't believe in or understand that someone can do a morally wrong thing because it's in the interest of the greater good. And while I totally get why that's the conclusion people come to, because "it was wrong but necessary" is the key to SO many of Meng Yao's actions and Mingjue's refusal to accept that as a justification is at the heart of the nieyao conflict. But I... don't think it's that he doesn't understand or accept that it can be necessary to do something wrong. I think he knows that very well. It's just that he thinks that, even if it was necessary, you still have to face the consequences of that wrong action.

He, in fact, shows just that, and that he still applies that rule to himself, in the very chapter this conflict stands central.

Yes yes Evi talks about the "very well I'll kill myself after I kill you" quote, must be a day ending in y. Anyway. What nie mingjue is saying here is that he will do something wrong (killing meng yao, which is wrong becuase meng yao saved his life and he owes him a life debt) but which he considers to be necessary (Meng yao killed his men and worked for wen ruohan, which makes him a danger to the cultivation world) but that doesn't make the act less wrong and he must still face the consequences (since he owes him a life debt, that's death) hence: murder-suicide.

This also explains why, when he is eventually told meng yao was spying, he no longer wants to kill meng yao, but still doesn't trust him. If meng yao was a spy, he's not dangerous to other people, and killing him isn't necessary (he will be moved back into the "necessary" category in a few years time, but for now he's not) but he doesn't forgive him. Because on some level he still believes that, even if meng yao was doing it for a greater good, he still shouldn't fully escape the consequences of killing so many people for wen ruohan. It was still wrong.

It's not a personal philosophy I agree with, but I do think it's important to understand the nuanced difference between "you can never do something wrong for the greater good/ because you had no other choice" and "you can do something wrong for the greater good, and in fact it might be your moral obligation to, but this does not exempt you of consequences" because assuming the former might lead you to believe that Nie mingjue thinks all of his own actions (or ones he plans or tries to take) are right. When in fact, Nie Mingjue is quite willing to do the "wrong" thing if it's necessary, he just thinks those actions should be owned up to.

Its part of my larger read of his character as someone who is not so much taken with righteousness (like his reputation says) as he is with balance. With things being owned up to and paid back. Which is, I think, an important distinction to make.

If you have read my other post specifically about how I think meng yao very much considers his own actions to be wrong and finds himself to be morally accountable but doesn't think he should be punished for them, and think "hey wow it sounds like those are diametrically opposed worldviews on the nature of punishment" then congratulations! you win!!

[mdzs-owns-my-ass-i-guess]

Top Three Reasons why NMJ is not a righteousness beacon

Okay screw poking the bear I'll share my possibly controversial Nie Mingjue thoughts below. Long post ahead!

Disclaimer: I don't condone what JGY did to him. At all. I don't condone what JGY did period. But NMJ is not perfectly just and fair in his dealings and I think we should acknowledge that as part of his character (which I love btw, he's very well constructed and having flaws is what makes him interesting)

Number One: NMJ is a hypocrite. The Nie cultivate a path that leads to gradual descent into madness, and is so severe that the resentment built up in their sabers lives on for years.

Knowing all this, NMJ joins the cultivators rallying against WWX and his ghost path of cultivation because it's "corrupting" and "evil" and "unorthodox"? As if your own isn't?! Bffr, Chifeng-Zun.

Number Two. His stance on justice and worth of life is inconsequential

Politically, I understand that defending WWX freeing the Wens would have been problematic, because the Jin made sure there was a consensus of hatred against WWX (and Jiang Cheng did nothing to alleviate any of that when he had the chance to explain why WWX saved the Wens).

And even if the Nie were a great sect as well, the Jin were still most powerful at the time, and the Wen work camp was in their territory (even if the staff was from multiple sects). Plus, NMJ didn't seem to be personally concerned with the fairness of the treatment the Wen had been subjected to... because they were Wens and NMJ had a personal vendetta against them as a collective

Why does this matter? Because NMJ makes it a point to emphasize that he never kills senselessly, for selfish desires or acclaim, and becomes angry enough to be violent when questioned about how he decides who deserves to die by his hand and whether he is certain his reasoning is right (Chapter 10, Volume 2, 7seas).

JGY popped off with this one, even if he rolled down the stairs for it - because he is right. NMJ can't be sure he made the right choice because such a choice is a matter of subjectivity and circumstance. JGY deciding his life is more than important than others' falls exactly in line with that, even if his views don't agree with NMJ's.

And NMJ himself illustrates it as well - he joins in the mob agreeing that the Wens at the work camp deserved to be tortured and killed even if they did not directly contribute to the war:

"Showed mercy how?" Nie Mingjue demanded. "Wasn't the Wen Clan of Qishan the culprit behind the Jiang Clan of Yunmeng's annihilation?"

(...) Nie Mingjue was indifferent to such logic. "She remained silent and raised no objections while the Wen Clan committed atrocities. That is no different from watching from the sidelines"

NMJ himself was merciless and silent to the slaughter of the innocent, even contributed to it - because his own principles told him it was fair to do so. Did he ever listen to anything but those? No. Was it right? Obviously not.

Nowhere in the book is there any Nie convoy sent to scout the Burial Mounds and see that Wei Ying wasn't building an army or a sect or anything the Jin were claiming. Because NMJ couldn't care less, because those were Wens and by his own principles, they needed to die.

And then he parades around as somebody who doesn't kill those who do not deserve it. Very ironic.

Number Three: his judgement comes from a largely privileged position.

Of course he doesn't understand (or even bother to try) what JGY means by his little speech on needing to make sacrifices and following orders to survive in the political realm - because NMJ himself never had to bother with such things.

He was feared and respected from the start as a Sect Leader and had a hard time understanding how life for someone below that rank could be like. He does support JGY as his deputy and writes him a recommendation letter - but that's obviously not enough for someone with JGY's past and the many prejudices against him due to it.

Even as many times as Lan Xichen tries explaining this to NMJ, he only seems to grudgingly listen but not agree. In his worldview, it is merit that should matter when building one's reputation. Reality is entirely different - but how could the son of a noble, sect leader all his life, understand and emphatize with that?

Of course, JGY absolutely did not need to do All That™️, but his struggle to prove himself to his father and the world (backed up by quite a bit of paranoia) becomes clearer if you look at it from the point of view of an outcast with a wretched origin trying to make a name for himself in the world.

NMJ didn't do that. Instead he labeled JGY as a power-hungry, manipulative, self-centered son of a whore and treated him accordingly - distrustfully and suspiciously.

Since JGY was already doing a lot of shady things (re: the Xue Yang issue that NMJ was keen on resolving via execution), having NMJ on his case was the last thing he could have possibly wanted - so, he resorted to the mdzs version of musical arsenic poisoning (because he would have never in the history of ever convinced NMJ he had no ulterior motives).

Again, that does not justify JGY speeding up NMJ's dying process. And JGY fucked around and found out big time about 13 years or so later. But if you look at things his way, what other solution was there for him to not only survive but also thrive in Jinlintai?

Could NMJ have prevented any of JGY's actions? Debatable. Personally, I think not. But he would have probably died later (by not making himself a direct antagonist to JGY and inviting death at his doorstep), and perhaps he could have even managed to prove (at least to Lan Xichen) that JGY wasn't as well-intentioned as he painted himself to be (by running covet investigations or something of the sort).

To conclude, NMJ is symbolic for a privileged class that believes in merit because it has never had to endure prejudice, and that is too divorced from the hardships of the underprivileged to understand them.