#what happens to chara post pacifist is actually a big part of frisk (and flowey's) conflict AND rapport in daemoverse

[daemo-ut]

HELLO I AM POPPING IN TO SAY 3 THINGS

I love Daemo!! Their design is soo cool, love the double horns :)

2. in the daemoverse- based off of that one drawing of him and Frisk- does Flowey get goat-like characteristics (fur, horns, etc) as he gets older?

3. Has Chara moved on (As in, their spirit/ghost has been put to rest)?

hello! thank you so much for checking the story out! :D to answer your questions:

thanks again! the lower pair curling down on the sides of their head is intentionally meant to fill in the silhouette shape of toriel's ears in spite of daemo's, uhh, characteristic lack of cartilage lol

he does! i love the idea that flowey starts sprouting two horn shaped thorns on top of his head as he settles down into a timeline and finally grows up. it's a really funny way to display the futility in his attempt to, pardon my puns, eradicate the part of himself that was once asriel from the person he wants to be.

:]c

[thewhitefluffyhat]

Thoughts on Deltarune Chapter 2

I wasn't even intending to write a Deltarune post, but here we are!

Have some extended ramblings/theorizing about Undertale, Deltarune, and the role of the "Player" vs character agency.

[Warning: full spoilers for ALL routes in both Undertale and Deltarune!]

.

Frisk’s Agency in Undertale

So I'm not sure how common this is nowadays (I haven't been following Undertale theories for a while), but I personally prefer the interpretation that there is no "Player" as an in-universe force in Undertale. I think it's a far more elegant story if the fourth wall isn't broken.

I'm also fond of the Narrator Chara and "Chara isn't pure evil until Murder Route teaches them to be" interpretations too.

And, of course, the third plank bridging those two is that I don't see Frisk as a just a pure, innocent cinnamon roll.

Because I like the story best when it's Frisk who chooses mercy or murder. It gives Frisk a much more complex character, if they are allowed to have the capacity for both immense kindness and immense cruelty. It even gives them an interesting implied character arc, if you take the natural progression path of True Pacifist > Murder Fun Times > Soulless Pacifist.

Just like Flowey, Frisk first tried to use their powers of Determination for good, but eventually they also grew curious and began to see the world as a game. And then they went too far and ultimately regretted it. Regretted it so much, in fact, that they were willing to sell their soul for just a chance to fix it.

After all, it's not you, the "Player," whose SOUL Chara wants. It's you, Frisk.

I also dislike the idea of an in-universe "Player" because that implies that "Frisk" is nothing but an empty shell - on ALL routes. All of those heartwarming moments in the True Pacifist route? All of the silly Flirt actions? Yeah, that's not Frisk, that's just as much the "Player" puppeting some poor kid's body as the events of the Bad Times.

Who knows what Frisk is truly like if their every action - good or ill - is controlled by some unseen, eldritch force? Now Frisk no longer has any characterization.

And given that said force overrides Frisk's agency, then isn't the "Player" evil no matter which route you take? It's become a story where they only "moral" choice is never to pick up the game at all. Hrm.

Anyway, but that's all Undertale. Which brings me to...

What the heck is going on in Deltarune?

Unlike Frisk=the Red SOUL in Undertale, we don't seem to control Kris=the Red SOUL in Deltarune. The game repeatedly underlines that the player only controls the Red SOUL, not Kris.

(Though, with stuff like the sound of the bathroom faucet only being audible when Kris's actual body is nearby - it seems like even when separated, the Red SOUL may still be perceiving through Kris's other senses besides sight...?)

With Spamton's dialogue and Kris's reaction after the non-Weird NEO fight, there's also a lot more emphasis in Deltarune of Kris (and the rest of the party!) being puppeted by some other force. And that's on top of all the stuff in the first chapter highlighting Kris/the Red SOUL's lack of agency.

Because of all those hints, Deltarune seems to be much more explicitly pointing toward that dark interpretation of Undertale - that the "Player"/Red SOUL is removing Kris's agency, regardless of route.

Indeed, I'm somewhat intrigued by the possibility that we/the Red SOUL might be forcing Kris to act nice just as much as we force them to act cruel. The way that Kris deliberately removes the Red SOUL in order to do some very suspicious actions might support that. As do some comments in Chapter 1, like characters in the post-Dark World walkaround noting how Kris is being less weird and more inquisitive than usual. Maybe Kris is the Knight and the Red SOUL is possessing them to undo their evil actions. Maybe the real Kris doesn't want to be friends with Susie and Ralsei at all!

But taking that interpretation to such an extreme also doesn't quite fit. Why does Kris slash the tires on Toriel's car? The only reason I can think of is that they want to keep Susie at their house. And why does Kris create the Dark World in their house? Is Kris creating the fountains because they want to have fun with friends? Especially right after the chapter emphasized how great the Dark World adventures were, that seems very likely.

There are also some smaller details too, of Kris interpreting the Red SOUL's input with their own spin (like saying things sarcastically), or of Kris chatting in a friendly way with Ralsei which the player/SOUL can't influence.

So, I'm pretty sure that even outside of the Red SOUL's control, Kris genuinely does like their friends.

Meanwhile, there were a lot of hints this chapter that Something Bad happened to Kris, Noelle, Dess, and Asriel when they went exploring in the forest by the graveyard. Most likely, they went into that ominous bunker south of the town. Is that incident related to Kris’s current strangeness?

And then, and THEN, there's the Snow Mercy route. That route seems to imply that the Red SOUL is both evil, and very much not Kris. Noelle says Kris isn't like themself, that their voice changes strangely, and she can still hear the creepy voice even when Kris is downed.

How to make sense of this all?

A Theory on Kris and the Red SOUL

One idea is that as scary and zombie-like as Kris looks without the SOUL, they're probably a nice, if lonely kid who desperately wants friends after their big brother went to college. (And possibly after something traumatic happened to them/their neighbor.) They're creating the Dark Worlds for the sake of fun and escapism.

But the Red SOUL puts an end to Kris's happy fantasies. Indeed, if the Red SOUL gives up, "the world is covered in darkness." So without the Red SOUL, would Kris simply keep creating fountains...? (What ARE the fountains, why can Kris and theoretically any Lightener create them?)

Maybe in the normal route, the Red SOUL is trying to gently help Kris move on and accept reality in some way. At the very least, I suspect Ralsei is working toward this goal.

But in that case... that's a pretty strange way for the Red SOUL to go about it, forcibly taking control of Kris to the point that the kid notices and seems to greatly resent it.

But what if the Red SOUL didn't have a choice about this arrangement either?

After all, the Red SOUL's customized vessel was discarded at the start of Chapter 1... and it was placed into Kris instead.

Here's a question: will Kris die if they're without a SOUL for too long?

Because there are an awful lot of moments in these games where characters break free of something they are bound to, but it doesn't end well: -Spamton collapses when his strings are cut. -The Darkeners can move freely outside their origin world for a while, but eventually turn to statues if they stay in another world. -Regardless of whether Berdly removes the Queen’s wires himself, he's exhausted and unable to fight any more after being under her control. -And when Kris takes the Red SOUL out of their body, their movements become slow and clumsy. Like it's a struggle for them to move at all.

Meanwhile in Undertale, post-Pacifist Asriel could maintain his form to say goodbye, but without SOUL(s), he inevitably returns to being Flowey.

So here's a theory: Kris died and/or lost their original soul. Perhaps due to some action/inaction on Noelle's part in the exploration incident. And as a last-ditch resort to keep them alive, the Red SOUL was somehow implanted in Kris.

(Also maybe Dess died/went missing at the same time...?)

And now, the Red SOUL the only thing keeping Kris around. 

But just like in Undertale, it seems like Deltarune SOULs have wills of their own.

Which means Kris's current state is similar to the Chara-Asriel fusion, or Omega Flowey, or even Frisk-Chara. Control of the body is shared. The difference is that instead of the SOUL we play representing the original owner/will of the body, this time the SOUL we're playing as is the intruder.

Essentially, this time around we are playing the role of the Chara-equivalent instead of the Frisk-equivalent!

(Though whether Kris themself is more of Chara or Frisk I’ll leave to other theorists...)

Anyway, while Kris likely wishes to be rid of the SOUL and dislikes this whole body sharing arrangement, they know they can't survive without it. And perhaps Kris being in a partially soulless state might explain why they do questionable stuff like creating Dark Worlds and slashing their mom's car tires in order to play with their friends. (Again, see also: Asriel/Flowey.)

But when the Red SOUL and Kris are in alignment, things go okay. The Red SOUL suggests commands, but Kris is willing to follow and seems to enjoy being with Susie and Ralsei.  

Let’s Talk About Snow Mercy

It's when the Red SOUL and Kris aren't in alignment... well. That seems to be what's happening in the Snow Mercy route. That kind of situation sure didn't go so hot with Frisk and Chara in Undertale, so I doubt this will end nicely for Kris and the Red SOUL either. At the very least, Kris seems to have been visibly upset after what happened with Noelle in this route.

(By the way, there are two other moments in Chapter 2 when Susie asks if Kris is okay - first after the normal Spamton NEO fight and subsequent discussion of what it meant and second after she and Kris approach the bunker.

Three different moments, but Kris appears to react similarly. Are all of these things related? The bunker, Kris being puppeted, and the events of the Snow Mercy route?)

Meanwhile, here’s a contrast. Undertale's Murder Route seemed to exist for the sake of curiosity and power - either the "Player" or Frisk's desires, whichever interpretation you subscribe to. And the changes to the world were all logical consequences of that - because of the Fallen Child's rampage, friendly NPCs disappear, major characters fight you more seriously, etc.

But the actions in Snow Mercy are... weirdly specific, weirdly unpredictable. It doesn't come across as a simple power trip. Instead, Snow Mercy is a bunch of really bizarre actions that feel even more mysterious to the player as they are to Noelle and Kris. I sure wouldn't have guessed that backtracking to the trash heap and freezing a bunch of enemies would lead to new items spontaneously appearing and then giving Noelle access to a scary new spell. It's like something straight out of a creepypasta!

The overall tone that comes across to me is that the Red SOUL seems to know what it's doing, even while the player is kept in the dark. And given Noelle's responses, it almost seems like the SOUL is trying to remind her of events/actions from her past, events which are obviously unknown to the player. All of which leads me to think that the Red SOUL has motives and goals of its own... so just like Undertale, this probably isn't a situation of the "Player" being a fourth wall-breaking force either.

The Red SOUL is its own character.

And I'm certainly curious to find out more about them!

[furiosity-wills-the-cat]

Chara, the fourth Blook cousin:

A crack theory that accidentally become way more serious than it should have because it somehow, despite my best efforts, ended up making sense

Brought to you by my idiot conspiracy brain (affectionate) and by encouragement from my Tumblr followers

Under the cut for the sake of your dashes and sanity

Ok here we go my very elaborate accidental theory, because in order to answer the complex questions simply you must first make simple things more complex or something

First, you need to know that Chara became a Blook cousin by adoption.

All of the Blooks are adopted.

Ghosts are not born into families, they make their own.

Got it? Great, because we’re about to start running

so first, im gonna make surprisingly uncommon claim in this fandom, and I am going to say that undertale ghosts are all dead

I’m taking the tiny details we know about ghosts and sprinting with them to new places

Ghosts also do not have souls I decided

Undertale souls do not work the same as souls in traditional mythology

So every ghost is soulless Unless and Until they become corporeal

Evidence: Monster souls cant exist without bodies, and ghosts are monsters, therefore ghosts cannot have souls without bodies

Further evidence: Asriel doesnt steal blooky’s soul, blooky is unkillable, we have no concrete evidence that blooky has a soul

What about mettaton? He only has a soul after he has completely committed to being corporeal and to a specific body.

Also maddy and mettaton are both only killable while corporeal

Im also connecting the dots we have about souls in a new creative way so let me live for a second

Additionally, i am going to claim that there are a lot more ghosts than just the blooks, some evidence given below

Theres like actual scientific knowlege of ghosts in the undertale verse which seems unlikely if theres literally only three or four

The underground is so much bigger than you think, theres that giant forest in snowdin, a large town in the ruins, the huge city of new home, who knows how much space in the large open areas of waterfall etc. Its really really big okay

Also based off evidence of blooky, we can conclude that ghosts can turn invisible whenever they want to and/or haunt objects to hide

So I personally think that ghosts are, generally speaking, extremely reclusive

And the blooks are just a special exception, a beautiful family, amazing for them

So anyway im going with typical ghost lore for now, for the sake of ease, so im gonna say ghosts generally come from monsters who are particularly restless or unsatisfied when they die

HOWEVER i dont think they remember being monsters or anything before being a ghost. They just kinda fizzle into existance with a fully formed personality and immortality while being unkillable and feeling vaguely uneasy

ALSO i personally think that chara was a ghost for a long time before they became a blook by adoption

Based on game lore, i think ghosts can possess any inanimate object and just kinda wear it? But it takes a lot of strong emotion to become corporeal

And chara is the super weird exception because they were a human not a monster.

They dont have a soul (i headcanon that their soul got destroyed when asriel died)

And they KNOW this, which is a huge part of why they kinda just... give up

Because they lost their ability to fulfill prophecy

Also, without a soul, they lost their ability to reset, so for the first time since falling underground, theyre subject to the relentless march of time

But theyre still weirdly strong and powerful and more emotional

ALSO they DO still remember being a human but they catch on pretty quickly that other ghosts dont have memories and because chara is stupid they just lie to fit in

Theyre too tired to explain themself, they just want to be alone and feel awful

Now back to ghost lore

Emotions are a lot harder for ghosts??? I decided

And they dont know why,, they tend to blame it on the soul thing

But realistically its actually more of the immortality thing making actions not have consequences and/or or not having a body so they cant have a sense of touch or have physical effects of emotion

They all know that ghosts just tend to be way more floaty and bored and numb

And thats part of why the blooks are so special

Maddy’s rage and Mettaton’s yearning and Napstablook’s misery are like... not great all of the time...

but theyre also way way more emotion than most ghosts have,,, they are just a family supporting each other, being as functional as they can,, just an emo(tional) ghost family

most ghosts barely do anything except like stare at walls but the blooks have their snail farm and that helps them have purpose and it is good

And they hold each other accountable and it is nice

So anyway chara just chills and is in a depression coma for a few decades before the blooks find them and are like “our child/baby cousin”

and they raise them for a cool minute

They are all very protective of the new baby emo blook

And chara doesnt get therapy but at the very least they once again have a family, and they decide they want to try to become corporeal eventually just like mtt and maddy

So anyway chara starts hanging out in the ruins a lot more and they finally tell the blooks theyre leaving to go become corporeal in the ruins

This is actually because they are trying to hang out with toriel

because they miss their mom ;;

but chara’s not gonna admit that to anyone, especially not to themself

And because theyre still repressing their emotions constantly and pretending to be fine, they cant become corporeal

And they hang out in the ruins for a long time because they feel guilty lying to everyone about everything

They still feel like its their fault that all the monsters are stuck underground, because they were SUPPOSED to save everyone and they COULDNT and it HURTS

But again, they are doing too much repression to use this guilt to become corporeal,

so instead they just kinda hide and watch toriel from a distance and cry

Blooky visits them the most, thats why blooky is chilling in the ruins so much at the start of the game

Theyre just there to visit their shy baby cousin ;;

Ofc they wont tell frisk about this because chara wants space and privacy and blooky respects that

but maddy and mtt also visit them a lot

Oh also when mtt and maddy start dissapearing, blookys mental health plummets as their family and support system starts to dissolve

Blooky was actually doing extremely well (for a ghost) for a long time, i headcanon,

but theyre doing the worst theyve been in a long long time during the game, because of family issues

So anyway, chara dissapears when frisk shows up, and maddy assumes this is becaude frisk hurt their fragile feelings

Maddy spends hours desperately searching the ruins for chara and cant find them and assumes that they had their heart crushed and went to hide and disappear in a depression coma for another few decades, and thats part of why maddy is so furious with frisk

Like,, to be clear, maddy is still jumping to conclusions and throwing blame around with no proof, but also, its a logical conclusion to come to

And mettaton has already disappeared too and been gone for a while, too, by this point, so it hurts even worse

But anyway, what actually happened to chara is that;

Because chara is a human ghost, not a monster ghost, normal ghost rules dont apply to them

And they can possess living things too they find out

Maybe they knew it a long time ago, maybe its a new discovery, but for whatever reason they end up possessing frisk and theyre like “what the heck”

And frisk still has most of the control

But now chara is like,,, “this is my chance, im a human again, gotta save the world for real,,,”

and they cant explain this to anyone without revealing their past

so they just chill in frisk’s mind while being super crypic and trying to figure out how it works

Pacifist route, this is pretty much exactly what happens

They manage to help frisk save the day

And in my headcanon, the no mercy route is started by frisk who is scared when faced by monsters attacking them

And then chara, who was aready hiding in a semidepression coma for a while, immediately transitions to a panicked “gotta protect this body, gotta protect my chance to be human, i died and threw away my chance to save everyone the first time, i CANNOT lose this chance again”

And so the combination of both frisk and chara is the genocide run

Because frisk kills in self defense, and whenever frisk hesitates, chara jumps in

Also theres leftover feelings from the whole asriel incident

Because again, ghosts come from monsters who died unsatisfied

And chara’s main source of unsatisfaction is how they were trying to get asriel to kill people before he died and then he didnt

So thats a strong strong feeling ruling them

So anyway by the time they both realize how bad its become they figure its too late and also the amount of LOVE has made them numb

And thats when chara who, despite everything, still has idiot hero complex and thinks they need to save the world

So, while panicking, they step in at the very end, and erase the timeline and delete everything

And also to clarify

They DONT HAVE this power at any other point in the game

Because, guess why

They become corporeal

Just like maddy, the no mercy route is the only thing that gives them strong enough emotion to spontaneously become corporeal

So they become corporeal and as soon as they have a soul again and can reset again, they just erase everything

Ok back to fluff

Post pacifist route, they are still a non corporeal ghost

They can still float around and look just like the other blooks

And it takes them a while to open up about things, but they do end up moving back in with blooky so that blooky isnt completely alone

And also they do way better with a family

Also they can float through the mountain and talk to flowey down below and bring him news

And now that they know about him, they can bond with him and explain that they dont have a soul either but that doesnt mean theyre worthless

Oh ALSO

The other dead humans dont have ghosts

BECAUSE

ghosts only come from restless dead MONSTERS

and chara is the weird special exception

Because they were a monster when they died

They became a ghost and asriel didnt because they were way more restless and stressed than asriel was when both of them died

Like sure, asriel felt awful, but chara was the one who was way more like “this is my fault, i CANT die now, the world NEEDS me”

So anyway

charablook the emo tween ghost and asriel flowey the eldrich goat daisy are siblings once more and they hang out and eventually they are okay and have a family again

Thank you for reading, this has been my thoughts on a crack theory that accidentally went too far

This isnt even everything, maybe i’ll make a part two eventually, but i promised to have this post out like two days ago, so i wanted to post SOMTHING

Anyway leave your thoughts if youd like

Im not looking for people to disprove it, i already know its crazy, i dont think it was intentional by the game writers, but i do think its a fun concept

thats the fun of it, so if anyone wants to run with it im all for it lol

Thanks again! Have a nice day!

[sharada-n]

Could you elabirate about why Papyrus reminds Flowey of Chara? I'm really curious.

Sure, but I want to preface this by saying its been ages since I’ve written Undertale Meta so excuse me for being a bit rusty. Also, there’s a lot of personal conjecture and interpretation here so feel free to take what I say with a grain of salt…

This is pretty much a counter argument to people claiming that Papyrus resembling Asriel is the reason why he’s Floweys favorite. I’ll get into why I think that isn’t true in a second (and why I think he actually is more like Chara) but first I’d like to point out that this theory doesn’t even make sense.

Flowey’s relationship with Asriel is complicated. On a technical level they’re the same person, yes, but in reality, they’re more like separate entities. While I do believe there is some Asriel left in Flowey, Asriel himself states at the end of the pacifist route that Flowey and he are not the same. More importantly though, Flowey talks about Asriel with clear resentment. He says Asriel was weak and blames the failure of the plan to free monsterkind on himself.

Keeping this in mind, it doesn’t make sense that Papyrus reminding Flowey of Asriel would be a positive thing to him. Especially considering the way Flowey speaks about his first encounters with Asgore and Toriel. Flowey doesn’t seem to want a constant reminder of his old life around, let alone a constant reminder of his old self. If Papyrus was like Asriel, I can only imagine Flowey would resent him too and not have him as a best friend.

“But Shara,” I hear you cry “Flowey is hardly a good friend. In fact, he's kind of a jerk and he manipulated Papyrus in the pacifist ending!”. Which, yes, that’s a fair point. I’m not saying he deserves a “friend of the year” award, but I’ve definitely been over why I feel their friendship is not just a charade on Flowey’s part. It might have started as such, but it's not anymore I think.

For example, the plan to use Papyrus to lure everybody into his trap at the end of the pacifist route wasn’t concocted until after Frisk fell, and they were friends long before that, so it can’t be the reason why Flowey befriended him in the first place.

Granted this is veering a little into headcanon territory, but there also is canon evidence to support this, such as the anniversary event where Flowey was the only one who knew what Papyrus’ favorite food was, and was seemingly annoyed at the fact that nobody else knew.

And also the dialogue you get if you keep doing neutral runs without ever attempting a genocide or pacifist run.

Here Flowey accuses the player of continually resetting and visiting him out of curiosity and boredom rather than a genuine desire to befriend him. This mirrors the part where he talks about his friendship with Papyrus being a result of his own curiosity and Papyrus (for some reason not actually properly explained in canon) being “fun to mess with” and a character that took a long time for Flowey to get bored off. Then we get this tidbit:

Not only is this line very interesting but the facial expression is important too. You can read it as discomfort, clearly, but it is also very much a guilty expression. This is the same expression Flowey has at the end of the pacifist route when addressing the player and compelling them not to reset anymore because it would take away everybody’s happy ending. It also happens to be the same expression he has when talking about the Flowey Fan Club as well as at the exact line I mentioned above, where he admits Papyrus was his “favorite”. 

Seems to me like Flowey is expressing guilt or embarrassment about his original intentions behind befriending Papyrus…

Now to get into the main thing: Why do people think Papyrus and Asriel are similar? The hard part is that we don’t know that much about Asriel when you think about it. He’s been long dead before the events of the game. We get some bits and pieces here and there but most info comes from Flowey himself, who is hardly an unbiased source. However, it's fair to say Asriel was very kind, innocent even, and pretty naive. A crybaby, in his own words. And if you take the most shallow, basic interpretation of Papyrus (the kind of fanon that makes me want to pull my hair out) what do you get? That Papyrus is kind, innocent and naive.

The only word in that list I do not take offense to is kind. Papyrus is undeniably a very kind person. But he is not innocent or naive. I could go into why I say this but honestly, it has been argued to death not just by me but by the entire fandom at this point, you’ve all heard it before. Papyrus is an actor. He’s good at showing people the parts of himself he wants them to see. It's unlikely that he’s completely faking it, I do believe Papyrus is genuinely a positive and quirky person. But he’s also playing up those parts to the extreme. Which leaves us with a lot of subtle clues as to his real feelings. Meanwhile, Asriel wears his heart on his sleeve. Crybaby, remember? And what about Asriel being a coward? Papyrus is anything but a coward.

So let's talk about Chara then. Once again we face the same problem we did earlier. Chara is long gone and we don’t know a lot about them besides what Flowey tells us, unless you subscribe to the “Chara is the narrator” theory, which I personally do, but since I know some people are still on the fence regarding this I’ll keep to strictly canon dialogue first. 

Asriel says Chara wasn’t the nicest person. True enough, their plan to destroy the barrier by means of killing themselves and then a bunch of humans wasn’t exactly a solid idea. However, it was made with good intentions. Chara was willing to sacrifice themselves for the sake of freeing their newfound family. Chara wanted to help fix something they saw as undeniably wrong: the way humans treat others.

But this was also about revenge. Chara was bitter. They didn’t climb the mountain for a happy reason, according to Asriel. Asgore tells us something different too. He says he can see “the same hope in Frisk’s eyes that he saw in [Chara]”. So here we find what is both the big similarity and the big difference between Chara and Papyrus. Both of them are genuinely filled with hope, with belief, and with the motivation to make things better. They just manifested it differently.

Where Papyrus seems to maintain this disposition even in the face of adversary and unkindness, believing in you all the way until his death in the genocide route, Chara has already faced the kind of behavior that has made them resentful of things they consider unfair or unjust.

Both of them are willing to act upon these feelings of righteousness at least, however ill-advised, in contrast with Asriel (or ironically: Sans), who seems to be a more static, laid back person that didn’t like shaking up the status quo and just went along with what others did. Even Flowey himself only engages when he’s sure he has an ace up his sleeve and is unwilling to act thoughtlessly or impulsively. 

As the tape in the True Lab betrays, Chara was also a hard person to read, and both an excellent liar as well as an actor. They were hard to figure out, at the very least, and Asriel expressed joy at seeing a glimpse of their unguarded emotions when they smiled genuinely. Once again though, Chara seems to do this because they want to come across as colder and more emotionless than they really are, giving the impression that they don’t care about anyone or anything. While Papyrus is always trying to come across more happy and untroubled than he really is, and rather keeps his more negative feelings to himself.

The result for both of them is the same though: they are distanced from their friends and family, I’d almost go as far as to say that even those closest to them barely know them, and they are misunderstood in the most fundamental way. Their motivations are harder to figure out than those of most other characters, for sure. It would definitely go some way into explaining why Flowey was so fascinated by Papyrus from the start…

If you do believe in the Narra!Chara theory, there are some small details that match too. Chara is a rather goofy person actually and often makes jokes, but expresses disgust at puns and Sans’ rather lazy sense of humor where he goes for the most obvious wordplays. Just like Papyrus, who the fandom often portrays as hating puns when in reality he loves them, just not the kind Sans makes because they’re easy. Chara is also implied to be quite fond of books/reading and cooking, as is Papyrus. They both come across as inquisitive to me. The narrator's retorts can be unexpectedly sarcastic, or even dark, not unlike some of Papyrus’ dialogue. There’s some other minor things but honestly this post is way too long as is so I’ll just leave it there

Conclusion: Flowey made the same mistake the fandom made in assuming Papyrus was a one-dimensional person who is easy to fool, only be confronted with his new best friend being strangely similar to his old one and now he has no soul and a weird attachment to this strange skeleton who everybody underestimates. He even admits that Chara is the only person he would still care about now. Kind of a weird statement, except if you consider he has found somebody like Chara that sparked some kind of actual emotion in him (whether that be friendship, compassion, guilt, or something else)

What do you guys think? I’d love to hear your thoughts, or if you want to tell me this post was a horrible read from start to finish you can do that too

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Once Upon A Time Analysis- Part 2

in part one, I referred to Once Upon a Time's parts as one motif, and talked about its relation to Chara. In this post I'll actually talk about its separate parts, and focus on how they relate to the plot.

The theme Once Upon a Time actually has three parts. The first plays while showing the history of the monster human war in the opening cutscene, the second plays while showing Chara climb the mountain and enter the cave, and the third plays while showing Chara falling into the underground and ends the song. It's pretty easy to recognize the separate parts. For the sake of convenience, I'll be referring to these parts as O1, O2, and O3 respectively.

Small disclaimer, this post will be highly speculative. It was hard to get much solid evidence for this. I do believe I have a general idea of what was intended. I just hope there is a pattern and Toby didn't use the different parts where they were because they sounded good because if so then I look like a moron.

Anyways, theory time. This whole thing started with people making connections between Once Upon a Time being the first song in the Undertale OST, and Goodnight being the last song. People made jokes that Undertale was a fairy tale the whole time... but it got me thinking. The use of O3 in Beginning when Deltarune released only intrigued me more.

After some research and thinking it came to be clear to me that Once Upon a Time represents the plotline of a story, specifically the Undertale. Basically, O1 is the beginning, O2 is sort of a climax, and O3 is the ending. Though, it's not quite as simple as I first made it out to be.

Let's go back to the duality of Once Upon a Time, the beginning song, and Goodnight, the end song. Some of you may already be confused and think I'm spouting nonsense. "But if Once Upon a Time is the beginning why does it have all the motifs? And why does Goodnight use O1 if O1 represents the beginning?" I may certainly be spouting nonsense here, but I do have reasons. Once Upon a Time tells a short story in itself. O1 plays during what started it all, the story of the war, the beginning. O2 plays during once we come to 201X, where we see this "climax" of Chara climbing the mountain. Finally, O3 plays showing the aftermath of Chara having fallen into the Underground and laying on the cavern floor. This ending motif ends the intro and leads us into the main game. Now some may already point out this isn't the end of the story, as we see in Asriel's battle that Asriel actually found Chara and helped them, and there's much more that happened than us just starting the game from there. Now that's where the true nature of these motifs are shown, and things get more complicated.

You see Undertale's intro is very misleading. It makes you think that the war was simply a big war between the monsters and humans, but you find out later that it was much closer to an unprompted slaughter by the humans. Most think that Frisk wakes up and we can start the game right after seeing the human fall down in the intro, when it's later revealed to actually be Chara who fell long ago. Just like the intro is misleading, the motifs can reflect that. O3 is a repeating pattern, and in the intro it trails off. It can reflect how this is only the end of the story that we're currently being shown, and that there's really much more that will happen. The trailing off could represent an "end of the beginning" sort of thing. Meanwhile O2 more often than not emphasizes low and sad points in the story, like metaphorical "falls", rather than just the climax. If we look back at the intro, O2 plays while Chara climbs the mountain, and falls into it. While this could be considered a climax like I said before, it makes more sense to be a fall. Not to mention, Chara was probably at a pretty low point in their life right before they ran away and fell into the mountain.

Even more important is O1's use in Goodnight. I theorize, since O1 is supposed to represent the beginning, that its use here represents the irony of the pacifist ending in Undertale. You can easily just reset and play the game again, starting everything over. Undertale is a very meta game, and Flowey will even talk to you about resetting in the Pacifist ending. It's possible O1's use in Goodnight acknowledges that this is never really the end, as there's always the possibility to reset.

Now that I've wrapped up Once Upon a Time and Goodnight, the two endpoints of the plot, I'll go through the other songs that may use Once Upon a Time in this way as well.

Start Menu is hard at the very beginning of the game, which is why O1 would be used. It gradually progresses, carrying O1 with it as it adds more instruments with every monster you befriend. Finally, at the end of the Pacifist route, it adds in O3, which represents how it's the end of your journey.

Home and Home (Music Box) uses O1 as a calming motif to show how you're still at the beginning of your adventure through the underground. It also helps with Toriel's house feeling homely, as your home is where you start your day. Even so, O2 comes in to hint at the tragedy that has happened at this home. It pairs with the traces of the other children that you can find in the room Toriel gave you. It's a bittersweet feeling showing how the previous six humans all fell and had to leave Toriel, eventually dying to Asgore. However, it never uses O3. I believe this to be a subtle hint that the game is telling you it isn't the end, and that you shouldn't stay with Toriel. Like O2 suggests, you have to follow the fallen children and leave her. This is reinforced by how if you go upstairs and sleep before the Toriel fight, Chara will share a memory with you to encourage you to "stay determined" and keep going.

There's the big skip until Hotel and CYRCTHIDRMMPA, which both use O1 and O2. I think the best explanation/theory is in my previous post, in that it pokes fun at the serioussness of the tragedy of Asriel and Chara. But again, O2 is used to show that is still was a tragedy, even in elevator music form.

Later O2 is used in It's Raining Somewhere Else. This could somewhat reflects how you're nearing the climax of the story, as the CORE is the last main area. However, it more likely reflects again, the fallen humans. How horrible it must have been for Toriel to see them leave and to die. The realizing that the story Sans is telling you reveals how much she cared for them and how she cared for you so much she'd ask someone to promise her to protect you. Poor Toriel has gonna through so much and must be worried sick, O2 helps show that.

Now, the Undertale. This whole sequence is a story in itself. While the use of Once Upon a Time is to mainly refer to Chara, how all three of its parts are used are reflected in the story. I'm actually going to go much more in depth into how Once Upon a Time's parts represent the story in New Home, but I will save it for the next and last Once Upon a Time post. For a basic summary though, O1 represents the beginning of the story and then it leading into Undertale, and O2 represents the fall of Chara.

I won't talk much about O1's use in The Choice, since again The Choice is just a section of Undertale with effects layered over it, and The Choice plays in a multitude of places. Though, you could argue how O1 represents how your choice will affect things later, even if that's a bit of a stretch.

Next we move to Fallen Down (Reprise). All three parts are used here, and I believe it represents your entire journey to get here, from beginning to end. Having your friends all meet at the end of the game is a direct result of your pacifist actions to get them here, so it's sort of a little pat on the back for getting this far.

Now Hopes and Dreams. This song, while it uses O1 and O3, never actually uses O2. Odd right? All the monsters you worked so hard to befriend are now trapped in Asriel, who is now all powerful and you have no chance of beating. It's the climatic last stand final battle, where all the odds are against you, shouldn't the motif that represents that be there? Well not exactly. Let's compare this battle to one with a very similar situation, Omega Flowey. Omega Flowey's battle has a consistent theme of hopelessness. You're facing an almost-god, you have no chance! Flowey's attacks swarm you and every time you die he makes fun of you and the fact that you're all alone. Your attacks barely do any damage. Terrifying music plays and the battle is filled with so much chaos and despair. That's why, when the humans souls break free from Flowey and help you it's so impactful. In Asriel's battle, he's even more powerful, but there's not that feeling of hopelessness. Before the battle all your friends are supporting you, you don't feel as alone in the battle. When you die instead of getting a cruel joke from Flowey and your game crashing, Frisk literally refuses to die. You get hopes and dreams as healing items. Hell, the name of the song is Hopes and Dreams! You're constantly supported and encouraged to keep going. There's no sense of hopelessness, you actually feel like you can win this battle. Everyone is counting on you. Flavor text in the battle even tells you, "It's the end." which is why O3 is used so much. As for O1, why would it be used? If it's the end, why would the motif that represents the beginning be here? Well, I believe it represents that while this is the final battle, Asriel is still thinking in the past. He is still holding onto the foolish idea that you must be Chara, and he can still keep you around to stay with him.

These same things apply to SAVE the World, though it's possible that with how O1 is modified it might also represent your journey that led you to befriend everyone that is now helping you, and how it's coming full circle.

With Reunited, which uses all three, it's probably very similar to Fallen Down (Reprise), where it represents your entire journey to get here.

Bring It In, Guys! using O1 at the end really doesn't need much explanation. It's already a compilation of a bunch of the game's songs, why not end it off with the starting motif? Also from the previous post, it shows a colored version of the view of Mt. Ebott from the intro, where Once Upon a Time plays, so there's that.

Last Goodbye is pretty much a remix of SAVE the World, though it does include O2 in the beginning. This may be because it's, well the Last Goodbye, goodbyes are sad you know? You finished the game and not you can't play it for the first time again. Awesome as it is it's still a farewell song, but it doesn't spend much time on it and gets straight to partying.

We've already talked about Goodnight, so I'll move onto Deltarune songs! Before the Story was actually first used in the menu screen on PS4, and considering it's literally called *Before* the Story, it makes sense that it uses O1.

Beginning had such a nice nostalgia throwback using O3. It's possible that it's just using O3 like Undertale's into, leading to what's to come, "the end of the beginning" of sorts.

We don't get any instances of Once Upon a Time until You can Always Come Home, which is a remix of Home. The use of O1 is because it's Home, but notice how O2 is missing, replaced by Don't Forget. O3 also appears at the end with some flutes on top of Don't Forget. The reason O2 is gone is probably just because Don't Forget fit better, but may also be because this time you get to stay with Toriel, as well as the fact as far as we know there's no dead children that used to live here. And O3 would just be because it's the end of the chapter, and you finally get to come home and end the day.

Finally we have Dog Check, the song that plays on Deltarune's error screen. It usesO2 briefly, before leading into Don't Forget. In all seriousness I doubt Toby was thinking about how these parts would reflect the story, and just wanted to make a chill song using the motifs. But if you really want an explanation, O2 represents the depressed player that with a corrupt game that's giving them an error screen, and now had to figure out why Deltarune won't start. Yup that seems good.

And that's all the songs that use Once Upon a Time. Again I may be completely wrong, but I noticed some patterns and made some theories I wanted to share on this. Make of it what you will. Next post I will go more in-depth into the song Undertale, then we're done with Once Upon a Time.

[debrisyume]

Deltarune Theories

This is super late, I know. I’m only posting this after most people stopped caring about the game but I really wanted those who are interested to know what theories I am going with. I actually like the fact that I did it like this because people have noticed and discussed interesting things months after the game was released.

Warning, I don’t think I bring much of anything new to the table with my theories, but I still want to put my thoughts into context so people know where I stand currently. Also imagine everything has a disclaimer that says “This is what I think but I’m prepared to be wrong when the full game comes out.” After all, we don’t know how much of the story we’ve been shown, it could be less than a third for all we know. And I think there’s a lot of lore we aren’t aware of right now.

It might sound kinda fanfiction-y at some points (not that fanfic is bad, but fanfiction doesn’t rely on evidence, I probably discuss a lot of headcanons here with little no backup). Also, this is super long (perhaps excessively so). I’ve broken it up into sections for more easy reading, and I have a short list of my most important or favorite theories at the end, but without explaining why I like them or the evidence for it. If you’re confused or don’t like a theory of mine, I recommend reading the part where I talk about it to at least understand my perspective.

Let’s talk about the ending scene first because I have some... thoughts about it.

That Ending

Ok, first of all, I’m 100% completely certain that the red soul Kris took out doesn’t belong to them. They were definitely possessed by it. I used to think it was theirs but then we took control of it and Kris was willing to get rid of their soul to stop being possessed, but that ended up being too convoluted.

Also, a big piece of evidence that pretty much confirms it’s “our” soul is how Gaster literally summons the red soul for the survey. (“ARE WE CONNECTED?”) Presumably it was going to be put into our created vessel, but then Chara dunked it and Gaster had to make do with Kris. (Or maybe it was Chara who put it inside Kris but I strongly suspect it was Gaster, because Chara was cut off when they were saying “Your name is...” This link also provides evidence toward Chara working with Gaster. They consider Frisk/the player their partner, an equal, and see themselves as a servant for Gaster)

Probably the biggest indication towards Kris being possessed by the soul is the whole ball of junk sequence. They don’t want to throw it away, but we force them to do it and they are clearly upset by it. Not to mention how we can still control the red soul inside the cage by moving it around a little. I don’t see how the ending could be anything but Kris trying to take back control of their own body.

Now, I don’t think Kris is evil. I don’t think they want to kill anyone, I can’t think of a reason why they would want to kill anyone so I’m not expecting it. Their LOVE is at 1 and we never heard about them being violent. There is a big gap between somewhat creepy and mean pranks + social awkwardness, and literal murder. They’ve also done things outside of the soul’s control that make them being evil unlikely in my eyes, they protect Susie and they call her their friend. They also clearly care about Asriel and miss him deeply.

Why would they throw away the first friend they made in years and ruin their relationship with Asriel by killing people in their hometown? I believe the knife thing was just a threat towards the soul, to scare it into leaving them alone. All Chara similarities are because they’re like Chara, not being possessed by them.

I believe they used to have a red soul themselves, but it was taken from them or lost somehow (their similarities to Frisk and Chara are way too stark and prominent for me not to think they had a red soul). For probably a long time they were soulless. We see how being soulless affects Flowey, he can’t feel love, compassion, or hope. I think Kris being soulless like this worsened their already terrible depression, and while they were able to get those feelings back through the new red soul, they aren’t willing to be controlled like that, so they got rid of it. Maybe they’re hoping to get their own soul back one day.

Also, I suspect that Kris has been possessed before, which is why I think they haven’t had their own soul for some time already. The rusty cage they used to trap the soul ‘has seen some use before’. There’s also a suspicious stain by that cage. I believe the first few times they had to rip a soul out, their body couldn’t handle it well and... yeah...

I don’t have a clue why Kris moves the way they do before ripping out the soul though. They walk very similar to how Frisk is described to walk in the Genocide Route, “shambling about from place to place.” But that was as a result of the LOVE they gained, right? It doesn’t look like Kris is controlling their own body well either, and the footsteps from the Dark World... maybe prolonged possession really hampers Kris’ own control of their body. They are described as looking sick in Hometown, which implies being possessed made them sick... someone help them already.

Kris’ Weapon

I would like to talk about the knife for a second too. So, their weapon is listed as “pencil” and not knife. I don’t know about you, but a pencil sounds like a pretty shitty weapon, especially if I already have a knife with me. But, what if Kris didn’t always have that knife with them? I know this will sound kinda crazy, but I think they summoned it with magic (Chara/Frisk/Kris has a strong resemblance to one of humanity’s seven greatest magicians, the poncho human, so this doesn’t come across as that unlikely to me. I think Poncho Human is one of those magicians because they’re always seen as toward the front/leading the humans, including when the barrier was being made, although I will admit this isn’t really confirmation).

We already seen this happen in Undertale. No matter what weapon you have equipped in the Omega Flowey fight, the knife animation will always play when you attack him, even if the knife isn’t in your inventory. This happens in other instances too like when Chara kills Sans, Asgore, and Flowey for you. Kris does look like they reached into their pocket for the knife, but I still believe it wasn’t there initially, otherwise the knife would be their “weapon.”

Is the Red Soul really supposed to be us?

Back to the soul, I don’t think the soul belongs to the player specifically. While I think it’s a valid theory, it kinda makes me uncomfortable, similar to the player theory in Undertale which I used to believe in. It’s not just that though, I believe the red soul has a good chance of belonging to Frisk.

Think about it, the red soul knows things Kris shouldn’t know about, they recognize Sans (and Sans probably recognizes the soul but is pretending not to know anything about what’s going on), they ask Undyne about Alphys, who’s supposed to be her girlfriend in the universe they came from. They also explicitly can’t play piano, unlike Kris, which excludes many players. Kris’ Dark World outfit matches Frisk’s usual clothes very well, and then there’s the flirting thing.

The vessel we made at the beginning has two stripes on their shirt, and their soul is red... like... a certain someone... we’re familiar with... it can’t be Chara, because Chara is the one who got rid of our vessel. And what was Chara doing before they got cut off? Telling Frisk a phrase similar to ones they heard before (Despite everything, it’s still you. Try as you might, you continue to be yourself. No one can choose who they are in this world.) and trying to remind Frisk of what their true name is (“Your name is...” a direct parallel to the flashback when Asriel introduces himself to Chara, but the flashback ended before he could, so we only heard “My name is...”) because apparently Frisk forgot who they were.

Anyone else find the survey questions weird? Besides how the speaker clearly isn’t too familiar with humans, none of them particularly identify a personality, they’re all about favorites or physical things. Gaster summoned Frisk’s soul for a specific purpose, but apparently they don’t need to be completely “themselves” to fulfill that purpose?

Also, if the red soul is supposed to be the player, not only is the bad piano playing oddly exclusive, but so is the color. We know from UT that each soul color had a virtue to go along with it, yet ours is always red, like Frisk and Chara’s. You could just wave it away as being red because it was our previous player character’s, but I still think it’s weird because Toby could have let us choose our own soul color or made a small quiz that picked our virtue for us. I still think red has its own virtue, despite us not knowing it. It can’t be determination, because DT is some sort of magical substance that exists in all humans (it’s also too similar to perseverance to be a separate trait). I have my own ideas, but maybe we’ll find it out in this game? Either way, there’s no reason it has to be red in particular, if it’s meant to represent the player, unless we’re actually playing as a character with a red soul.

Now that I’ve established that I think the red soul is Frisk, I need to explain what kind of Frisk. I think this Frisk is older, closer to Kris’ age than how old they were in Undertale. It must be after a pacifist run, because that’s the only run where Alphys and Undyne get together, although I haven’t decided yet if it’s regular pacifist or soulless pacifist. The way Chara talks reminds me more of their Genocide run self, not to mention the callback to the soulless pacifist ending in DR.

The thing about determination in Deltarune’s universe is that I think it still exists, otherwise we wouldn’t be able to save and reload at all, but that it hasn’t been named or even have much research to it at all. After all, the one who discovered it was Alphys, after Chara and Asriel were long dead. And Alphys in this universe isn’t a scientist. Kris also seems to be aware they can save, but their save file is weirdly empty...

The Dark World isn’t Real, kinda (but neither is Hometown, kinda)

Now, pretty much everyone has considered the idea that the Dark World is not actually real. The food isn’t filling, after completing a playthrough you can skip going to school and just go back to sleep to come to the Dark World, the areas and characters each have a counterpart in the unused classroom (except for Ralsei, hmm). Kris’ pencil also turns into a sword, we can tell because if they get the spooky sword, they come back with a Halloween pencil.

I don’t think it’s as simple as the Dark World being fake though. The idea of Kris and Susie having some sort of shared dream experience is weird, and all the roleplaying theories make no sense to me (why would Susie participate when she only starts caring about Kris toward the end of their journey?). All the characters not being real just makes me sad, and the adventure feels hollow of if it was just imagination.

I believe the Dark World is a pocket dimension of some sorts, influenced by what goes on in Hometown (Seam being old is because ‘stuffed animal Seam’ is worn out after some years). It might be pretty dependent on Hometown to exist, but all the characters are perfectly sentient and have their own agency. Think... idk what goes on in Toy Story or Spirited Away?

However, I also believe Hometown is fake in some way, or at the very least, there’s some shady magic stuff going on. While on the surface it seems like a perfectly normal town where monsters are happily living above ground, seemingly never been trapped by humans in the first place, most of the characters we know are unhappy in some way. Bratty and Catty hate each other, Alphys and Undyne don’t know each other, Mettaton isn’t confident and seems pretty depressed, being a teacher is literally the worst job Alphys could have, etc.

There’s also things that feel super off. The way Toriel acts as a parent to Kris feels like a downgrade from Undertale, Asgore is living in poverty and no one is really helping him (almost makes me wonder if he was never a king in this universe?). Why don’t Alphys and Undyne don’t know each other, anyway? The town is pretty damn small and they both hold job positions that would make them well known, especially given how it seems like only Toriel and apparently Blooky is the other teacher/officer respectively.

Why is there a stain in Kris’ room that Toriel doesn’t seem to care about, even just to clean? Why is she overprotective to the point of punishing Asriel for being kissed by a girl? Why is Asriel the only character living his best life? He’s alive, he’s popular, his family is proud of him, while is Kris is seen as a creepy loner.

The lights in the school not reflecting the correct way, assuming that was deliberate (considering its similarities to the judgement hall, which is weird on its own, I’m betting it is). The way Toriel’s doorknobs on multiple doors work should be impossible. That fucking bunker?? Why is it there?? Why is Gaster’s music playing there?? IM SO UNSETTLED

Anyway, my point is I have to wonder if Hometown is fabricated in some way. I like to think of it as a world someone created that isn’t completely finished, or something went wrong in the process. This post talks about a great idea about how the Deltarune universe is meant to be an “ideal AU” for Asriel and Chara (Asriel creating the Dark World while Hometown was done by Chara) and I’ve been really into it since I first read it. It just makes a lot of sense to me. I believe it was done with the help of Gaster, who has his own agenda going on, which is why things aren’t perfect.

What’s up with Kris?

Now, about Kris’ identity. It’s hard for me to believe they’re completely separate from either Frisk or Chara because of the similarities they all share. Kris’s skin and hair colors match Frisk’s perfectly, but their personality seems to match Chara more. They’re quiet (we never hear Chara’s voice in the videotapes), the demon horns headband are very much Chara’s style, they like being creepy, while Chara’s hair doesn’t cover their eyes when see them at the end of the Genocide run, we never actually see their eyes in the flashbacks, they’re also both very close to Asriel.

I also think it’s important to mention that Deltarune takes place in 202X, while Chara fell in 201X, and Frisk fell much, much later. I’ve seen people liken Kris to a “Chara self-insert” and it makes a lot of sense to me in the context of Deltarune being a created AU. I’m more in the “Kris is an AU Chara” boat than “fusion who’s taking the place of both” or “AU Frisk”, because personality sticks out more to me than physical stuff. But the “self-insert” idea could explain away the name and appearance differences. Chara could see Frisk as a better version of themselves, taken stuff like Asriel saying Frisk “is the friend he wished he always had” to heart, and unconsciously mold this AU version of them to resemble Frisk more.

Essentially Kris is Chara’s OC in the same way Ralsei and the Absolute God of Hyperdeath are to Asriel. Not to mention since I think Frisk is the red soul, the idea of them possessing an AU version of themselves is a bit... odd, but if it’s an AU Chara than it’s almost a reverse of the situation they two had in the Undertale (although I don’t think Chara took control outside of certain instances). Which is a fun idea to me! Like Underswap but angsty teen edition, haha.

Tbh, the idea of Kris being an “AU Chara” is more just my personal preference, as it goes well with a lot of headcanons for Chara (I had one that they played the piano before Deltarune came out, for instance), however, I can admit that some sort of fusion between Frisk and Chara (heck, their name is even a combination of the two, ‘Chris’! It’s probably spelled as Kris because that’s more gender-neutral, I bet) seems more likely at this point, no matter how weird I personally find it.

By the way, I strongly feel that Kris would have a different outfit in the Dark World if they had their own soul instead of Frisk’s soul inside of them. I can see theirs following a similar knight theme, but it wouldn’t have a blue and pink color palette.

Also, I have to wonder if maybe Kris was Chara’s old name back in Undertale? It’s not a stretch to imagine that they chose their name before meeting Asriel the same way we chose Chara’s name in the beginning of Undertale. But, if it’s a case of Kris being Chara’s old name, I think it’s just that they haven’t figured out their ‘true name’ yet because they never heard of ‘Chara’ before, rather than everyone disrespecting their wishes. Frankly, the idea of everyone misgendering/deadnaming Kris intentionally makes me uncomfortable and also comes across as pretty OOC for the monsters.

To pacify or not pacify?

I said before that I’m uncertain as to whether Deltarune is a sequel to post-pacifist Undertale or post-soullless pacifist, but I think if it was the soulless version, it would give us a good explanation for how Gaster acquired Frisk’s soul (Toby could easily explain it away as void fuckery powers but whatever). Chara could have been to the one to give it to him, because they are technically in possession of Frisk’s soul.

I still consider the soul to be Frisk’s even if they gave it to Chara. We already know from the Omega Flowey and Asriel fights that even when someone else is using the soul, the person will still exist in some way. Even if Chara owns the soul now, it’s still made from Frisk’s essence. Also, Chara and Gaster seem to be working together, I think Chara gave the soul to him and that’s how the survey got started. And since it’s not in Chara’s body anymore/Chara could have just given up ownership of it, Frisk is the only one in control of it now.

Frisk isn’t evil they just lack empathy and occasionally go into a dissociative state where they commit atrocities

(The title is supposed to be a meme reference don’t take it too seriously, although I always liked the headcanon that Frisk struggles with empathy more than people think). You guys might be thinking I’m being too harsh on Frisk. They’re possessing Kris, they probably did a Genocide run, etc. Well, I don’t think any worse of Frisk than I do for Flowey. They (along with Chara) are just traumatized kids in messed up circumstances with way too much power in their hands. Frisk also never consented to being put into Kris. I don’t think they have any idea what the fuck is going on.

You can answer ‘no’ to multiple questions in the survey and it continues on as if you answered yes, they probably thought the whole thing was weird and kinda shady, but they literally had no choice but to go through with it. They were also under the impression that their vessel would be the new artificial human they’re creating, not someone who already has a life. I’m also not sure if they have a good way to communicate with Kris and hear their thoughts on everything. Frisk might be able to talk to Kris through narration, but not hear what they want to say in return, only some of their feelings. Or they’re not able to talk to each other at all, which just makes the situation harder on both of them.

Frisk can do many things that unintentionally hurt Kris, like hugging Ralsei when Kris doesn’t like hugs, but that seems to be a case of ignorance. As far as I know, there’s only one thing Frisk can do that’s deliberately bullying them, which is breaking the ball of junk (it’s also crappy if they named it that way when Kris clearly likes it). That is pretty shitty of them, but it’s not too far off from the jerk things you can do in Undertale, liking eating the snowman piece in front of the Snowman or letting Monster Kid fall to their possible death, as far as Frisk knew (all on a pacifist run too!).

Frisk still needs to apologize to them, but I think the two will be able to mend things together eventually. I’m hoping they will because I’ve already thought a lot about their possible friendship after they reconcile lol (This is going to be one of those theories I’m sad about if it’s not true)

I would also like to say that if Frisk has ever met the Gaster followers/Gaster himself (which you can do without hacking in updated versions of Undertale) during a couple of timeline resets then they might feel an obligation to help him, even if they have a bad feeling about it.

Chara and Gaster are playing tug-of-war (and I want the old man to lose because I’m biased)

Back to Chara and Gaster working together, I believe this is almost certainly what’s happening, but they definitely seem to have different goals, or at least different ways of going about it. The way Chara takes over gives me the impression they’re arguing with Frisk caught in the middle. I’m uncertain as to why Chara discarded the vessel, but I doubt they killed the little guy. Maybe possessing a Goner Human would have unpleasant consequences we aren’t aware of.

From what we know of goners, they essentially don’t exist in the same way Gaster doesn’t. Maybe, people would be able to acknowledge us at first, but overtime, similar to Gaster, our existence is forgotten while our accomplishments still exist. I’m expecting them to come back eventually. I like the idea of them being The Knight, although that would require some weird timeline stuff going on, like the period between our vessel being discarded and the red soul being put inside Kris to have taken a much longer time than we thought.

As I mentioned before, I think Gaster was the one to put the soul in Kris, not Chara. My reasoning for this is how Chara gets cut off when telling the soul their name. Gaster could have went with Kris because they’re the best fit (being a human, presumably used to being possessed— notice also how despite clearly not liking being controlled, they still do everything we say) and how they’re already a part of the Legend, apparently, so they were supposed to go the Dark World the whole time.

If Chara was the one who did it, then I think it’s because since Frisk is “their partner”, Chara wants them to work with this AU version of themselves. If Kris is supposed to be Chara, then I can also see Chara just not caring about their comfort or what they want, since Chara always seemed to have a low opinion of themselves, I doubt they’d care much about an AU version.

Otherwise, well, the Chara that gets corrupted by LOVE by the end of the Genocide Route seems to treat everything with apathy unless it has to do with power and irresponsible people getting what they deserve, so they still probably wouldn’t really care much about what Kris wants. Chara could have also thought they were helping by giving them a soul, even if it’s a soul that will control them.

Btw, I doubt Chara has completely bad intentions even if this is the Genocide run version of them, nothing to do with a massacre at least. They’re not even directly interfering with the world besides the vessel thing, Gaster is the one’s in charge of our game over screen (something I think is important and will get back to later!) and we’re the one who chooses to fight people. It’s just that the Darkners run away before we can kill them. Chara has also never been above doing questionable things for the greater good, just look at the buttercup plan.

Suzy/Susie, also that other lizard teen

As far I’m concerned right now, Suzy from Undertale is the same Susie from Deltarune, similar to Chara and Kris’ connection, she’s just younger. However, I wouldn’t be surprised if Suzy is a different character and she’ll appear later in the game. I’m thinking she’s another monster rather than a human, if she isn’t Susie herself. The reason I’m being cautious about whether they’re alternate counterparts is that Catty and Catti are separate characters, despite having very similar names. I wouldn’t be surprised if Suzy and Susie are actually related in Deltarune.

Also, if the soul is a post-pacifist Frisk like I think it is, and Suzy is Susie, then I definitely think Frisk became friends with Suzy after the barrier was broken. I imagine a younger Susie would be more mellow and less of a bully, and Frisk could be a good source of support when she’s dealing with her problems. I think even if they aren’t the same person, it’s likely that Frisk knows Suzy if she’s a monster.

Goner Clamgirl specifically told Frisk they’ll be meeting Suzy soon, so if she isn’t Susie, we’ll definitely see her eventually. And if this is post-soulless pacifist... well, I never thought Chara killed everyone, I thought it was a threat to scare Frisk into behaving or remind them/the player of what they’ve done. Kinda hard to be completely happy with your family and friends while being haunted by the fact that you killed them before.

Monster Kid is kinda screwing with me. Their horns are pointing the opposite side of where they did in Undertale, this is significant because Goner Kid’s horns point the same way as DR Kid. We already know of one goner living a normal life in Deltarune, could DR MK be Goner Kid while UT MK is... uh... MIA, in the Deltarune universe, for the lack of a better term? They act exactly the same though, which is pretty weird. I am still very concerned.

The Narrator is more confusing than Gaster at this point

Now, one of the mysteries that is fucking with me the most is who the narrator is. I don’t think it’s Kris, the use of ‘you’ and other things (Kris got the hot chocolate, you felt a feeling of relief @ the ball of junk not being thrown away is clearly about Kris) doesn’t really fit it being Kris in my head. There’s a lot of similarities with Chara but too many odd things as well... it uses the exact phrasing but with notable differences. The cactus isn’t tsundere, “it’s only you” feels VERY off and kinda mean since Kris isn’t exactly alone anymore... It’s sometimes stiff and brief, similar to the Genocide run narration at times, but it also has its playful moments “It’s good to conserve water” when choosing not to flush the toilet, and the whole “perpetrating the cycle” when talking about the moss.

I like to think it’s a Frisk trying to mimic Chara at times, actually. “He cannot be reasoned with, but don’t give up...!” when checking the Spade King gives me strong Frisk vibes. Also “It's quite small, but some people REALLY like it,” for the choco diamond implies the narrator isn’t a huge fan of chocolate (which Kris and Chara are, the choco diamond heals Kris the most). It’d also make the most sense, if the red soul is Frisk, for Frisk to be the narrator.

However, something that feels off for both Frisk and Chara as narrator candidates is that the narrator seems familiar with Kris. They know Kris can save (“the light only you know”), they know which locker belongs to them and Asriel, they know Kris’ and Asriel’s old Halloween costumes are from 8 years ago specifically... which is... extremely weird? How can Chara or Frisk know these things if they’ve never been to this world before?

Which leads me to my crackpot theory, the narrator is college!Asriel who’s actually dead. THINK ABOUT IT. It’s definitely wrong but whatever. For now my favorite candidate is Frisk but who fucking knows. I’d even accept Gaster at this point, and I hate that theory for Undertale. It’d be too easy if they’re not meant to be character in this game, I think it is supposed to be someone.

ALSO ALSO important fact is that they are definitely narrating to Kris. They refer to Toriel and Asriel as “your mother and brother” and there’s stuff like “You really didn’t want to throw it away.” So the narrator is talking to Kris and not to the soul. I think this is significant.

But yet ANOTHER weird thing about this is “the power of reoccurring bake sales shines within you” line (or whatever, can’t remember the exact phrasing). There’s only one bake sale in Deltarune, but this makes sense in the context of a post-Undertale playthrough, because we experienced more bake sales there. But that means the narrator (Chara I guess, if we’re just going off of this line) is talking to Frisk... which can’t be possible because I already established how they’re clearly talking to Kris, not the soul... (the narrator talking to more to one person or there being two narrators would get way too confusing too fast, like, how are we supposed to figure out who’s who or who exactly they’re talking to if there’s more than one for either?)... and yet if it’s Frisk talking to Kris this line is still strange... because Kris has only been to one bake sale before... you guys understand yet why the narrator mystery is frustrating to me???

Gaster isn’t evil but he’s probably worst void grandpa ever

I do not trust Gaster. I do not trust him at all (I also don’t trust Ralsei). I don’t think he’ll be a traditional villain though. It’d be kinda hypocritical of me to assume the worst of him when I’m such a big Chara fan. The problem is we barely know anything about him. With Chara, we have just enough info to figure out likely motivations, backstory, and personality (from the narration). I have an idea about what Gaster wants but not much about why he’s going about it in this... pretty convoluted way.

I think Gaster wants to be whole again, I think he wants to go back to his friends and family. However, he’s going too far and is fine with people getting hurt as long as he can achieve his goal. Being shattered across time and space probably fucked with his mind at least a little bit. And after a while of nonexistence he’s probably gotten desperate. I’m thinking he’ll be a helpful, if confusing, ally at first, then as we learn more about what he wants he’ll turn into an antagonist. And it will end in an redemption.

Also since there’s apparently an actual debate about this, Gaster is definitely involved with Deltarune, along with Chara. I’m uncertain as to how big Chara’s role is, but Gaster will certainly be a big part of the game. The post I linked about Chara discarding the vessel has undeniable proof it was them, and there’s wayyyy too many hints about Gaster around for him not to be in the game. The speaking style of the one who gave us the survey matches exactly with how Gaster speaks in Entry 17, his music motifs are everywhere (when we call the phone number, the area around the bunker, etc) at least one of his ‘followers’ is up and alive, Seam directly quotes his iconic “darker, yet darker” line... like, there’s no way he’s not involved.

Now, the game over screen is very interesting. Gaster asks us if we want to continue on after we die, and if we say no, the world was “covered in darkness” and we get to listen to some very pretty, but melancholy and slightly ominous music, while we wait in the blank void for Gaster to let us restart. It reminds me of when Chara destroys the world and there’s only howling winds to listen to until they decide to talk to us. Actually, the more I compare the two, the more similar these scenes are.

Frisk is at the mercy of a being more powerful than them, who’s the one that gets to decide if they can continue interacting with the world (with Chara you have to convince them to remake the world). Gaster doesn’t let Frisk reload the timeline themselves, almost as if Gaster is the one with control over the timeline. Gaster bluntly tells Frisk that they failed to save the world, puts them in a time-out as some, frankly, kinda messed up punishment for saying no to restarting, and after a while of presumably contemplating their failure, it’s only then that Gaster lets Frisk try again.

I read a very cool theory that at the start with the survey, when you accept the agreement, you give up your determination to Gaster. This lets the Game Over screen make a lot more sense in context. Gaster is the one who gets to decide when we get to reload the timeline and even where (I saw someone point out that Kris & company typically don’t respawn right by a save point like in Undertale, rather closer to where you last died, that only happens a few times in UT I believe). If this is true that’s... more than a little concerning, but it’s cool too!

Ralsei isn’t evil but he’s certainly suspicious

NOW, let’s talk about everyone’s favorite fluffy boy! Evil Ralsei sounds like the most boring and predictable twist ever. But I’m willing to bet money that there will be a couple of twists with Ralsei’s motives and who he actually is. It’s kinda interesting how Ralsei knows Kris and Susie���s names already, and that he’s the one who tells Kris to direct the soul to Susie, obviously to help out Susie, but maybe also to have a private conversation with Kris?

Gaster never intended for the vessel to be discarded, so it was most likely going to take the place of the human from the prophecy, yet Kris is also one of those “wonderful people” we’re going to meet (Gaster says something to this affect when we name ourselves Kris, note that he only does this with major characters like Susie, Ralsei, and Noelle, who looks like she’s joining us later, and says something different when we call ourselves Toriel, Sans, etc). What I’m getting at is that I’m pretty sure Ralsei either knows the name of the “creator”, the vessel, or both even, and that Kris was also going to join our adventure despite being an extra human. Similar to how Noelle is apparently an extra monster for the Legend.

Back to Ralsei, he definitely seems to know more than he lets on, and could also be lying about some things. It’s pretty interesting that the Spade kingdom’s fountain is the one that was made recently and that we’re supposed to destroy, in contrast to Ralsei’s fountain, which, despite apparently being around for longer, doesn’t have his own subjects? Yet another interesting thing is how Ralsei is usually referred to as a Lightner when he’s with Kris, or with both Kris and Susie.

If Ralsei is hiding something or lying about stuff, I don’t think he’s doing it maliciously. It could be directions from Gaster or something like that. Ralsei’s similarities to Asriel are also very suspicious, and I find the idea of those two not being related at all extremely unconvincing. He acts like a goody two shoes version of Asriel, with his flaws relating to how much of a doormat he is. He’s basically the inverse of the Absolute God of Hyperdeath. Despite how much he advises against fighting anyone, he lets us fight people as much as we please.

Personally, I think he’s a post-pacifist Flowey. It just makes sense to me. Ralsei looks like he’s trying to imitate his idea of Frisk (you can play Frisk as a huge jerk in pacifist yet Asriel still thinks Frisk is super cool), and thinks nonviolence is the way to get the happy ending. He also uses some of the same lines as Flowey in the first battle of the game. I think he’s being manipulated somewhat by Gaster, probably regarding his memories, so he’s actually being genuine as opposed to putting on an act. Although the idea of Ralsei trying to guilt trip us when we drop the manual too many times is hilarious. I also like to think his Light World form is a flower.

The Skeleton Brothers

Last but not least, Sans and Papyrus. Sans, like always, seems to know more about what’s going on. You could interpret Sans as not knowing who we are, but I think he’s actually trolling us. He acts like he knows Kris at first, probably because he’s aware that we don’t know this is their first meeting. “Look who it is! How’s it going kid?” is what you say to someone you met before, I don’t care what anyone says.

Pretending to know someone is a weird joke for a first meeting, imo, unless he means it as a inside joke for Frisk, and isn’t really talking to Kris at that moment. Then, when we say “great to see you again” Sans pretends we’re a weirdo to make fun like he usually does, not giving away that he recognizes Frisk’s soul and putting them on edge as a result (probably failing on the latter at least lbr), so Frisk gets to feel sheepish while Kris is confused as fuck.

I’m not... completely certain from what timeline Sans is, and I’m pretty certain it’s a Sans from one of the Undertale timelines, with the joke about knowing us and how he’s the only returning character with an unchanged sprite. The easiest would be a Genocide run, maybe he didn’t really get killed and if that’s the case, he really has nothing left to live for so might as well go to a different universe, especially if the anomaly is running around and possibly mucking things up again. But why does he have Grillby’s bar with him? I guess he did leave it behind in the Genocide timeline and he said he’s “going to Grillby’s” so that would make sense.

But what about Papyrus? Papyrus throws the biggest wrench in these theories about this being the same Sans because we don’t know anything about this Papyrus. If it’s the DR version of Papyrus then that means there’s a DR version of Sans around with no little brother, and I can’t see UT Sans being that selfish. Post-pacifist would work better, I think. Papyrus is alive in that timeline and maybe if it was important enough they’d leave their friends behind to the DR universe but I kinda can’t see them doing that?

Any other timeline besides Pacifist and Genocide doesn’t work because Grillby never leaves his bar alone for Sans to take (I can’t see him doing that if Grillby is still tending to it). Although I will say if this is a Papyrus who knows who Frisk is, I can see Papyrus being able to play dumb about the similarities he sees between Kris and Frisk, including the soul. He’s always been good at hiding how powerful he is (and seems to be aware of Sans’ teleportation and study of different timelines), so he could just leave more hints about the apparent dimensional travel going on between these games but never being too obvious about it.

Also, I have to say I don’t think either of them are aware of Gaster being involved, although I could be wrong, there’s not much to indicate for either or. Oh, and since Gaster seems to be such a big deal in this game, I think we have a good chance of finally knowing more of the skelebros’ backstory.

Predictions for the full game

There’s no way “your choices don’t matter” is going to be 100% endorsed by the game, even with only one ending. I feel like the ending will be like the “despite everything, it’s still you” line, ie it’ll have a different feel depending on what you do. That particular mirror line still appears whether you do pacifist or when you’re at LV 18. It sounds bittersweet and affectionate when you’ve shown mercy, but when you’ve been pretty dusty, it sounds almost... judgmental. Like wow, you didn’t improve yourself at all, huh?

We already kinda see this with when you fight the Darkners or spare them all (which I definitely think will have a butterfly effect, along with freeing Jevil maybe). The fight ending is more somber while the spare ending is a lot more funny. I highly doubt Deltarune will go full grimdark, even if there will be challenges and horrifying things to discover. I’m sure the ending will be satisfying and have some sort of hopeful tone.

Anyway, now for less big picture things. I’d LOVE for Monster Kid to have a bigger role in the later parts of the game, since they were basically Frisk’s only peer in the underground that they could count on not to kill them (yes Flowey I’m shading you), and I have a big soft spot for their friendship, despite it being rather minor. If the soul belongs to Frisk like I think it does, there could be some interesting interactions. Especially since Frisk is closer to their version of MK than Kris is to the one they know.

However, I highly doubt it. MK doesn’t have a portrait or their own soundbites. I do think part of the game will be Kris improving their relationships with the monsters though, and MK will be one of them. They seem to count on each other to be group partners when they need to, but they’re not close at all. MK looks like they have a tendency to put their foot in their mouth around Kris and doesn’t really get them. I’m thinking that’ll change depending on our choices whenever we get a chance to interact with them. Either that, or there will be a running cycle of MK accidentally annoying Kris, them realizing it and getting uncomfortable, awkward silence ensues, rinse and repeat. RIP school friends.

Noelle will definitely be a big character, since like many predicted, she’s coming to the Dark World. Rudy is almost certainly going to die and that will affect her character arc, along with her seemingly strained relationship with her mother (her being too scared to ask her mom for the house keys raises a red flag).

I think her and Susie will get off on the wrong foot, Noelle will come on too strong and Susie thinks she’s making fun of her and doesn’t actually want to be her friend, because why would she? As they have to interact more in the Dark World though, I’m sure eventually Susie will realize she was being sincere, they’ll become good friends, and even start dating toward the end. Unlike with Alphys and Undyne, I don’t think we’ll get to be a wingman. We might attempt it, but nothing comes from it and it’s just those two becoming a couple on their own to follow the “your choices don’t matter” theme.

Berdly kinda seems like he’s just going to be a jerk character with funny lines, but he does have a portrait and unique soundbites, so I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets an arc to himself. Maaaaybe he’ll join the party but who really knows. I’m applying this same “maybe” to all new school characters that have the portrait, because why bother giving those to characters with minor roles? Maybe so we can see what they look like better but eh.

Also this is more of a personal preference of mine but I don’t want more villains like the king... a big appeal to me with Undertale is how no one is completely evil and every major character gets their happy ending (except Asriel, Chara, post-Genocide run Frisk, and Gaster, more on that in a little) and is generally written to be flawed but likable and understandable in their own way. I can deal with the king because the fairytale/Alice in Wonderland vibes of the Dark World gives me the impression that it’s meant to have a black-and-white story to tell, where the heroes defeat the bad guy with very little depth, especially if it was created by Asriel, but I think as we explore the Dark World more, it will be more gray.

Timeline shenanigans

(Please also read the last paragraph in the last section for added context)

As I stated before, the universe of Deltarune comes across to me as an imperfectly created AU in a post-Undertale ending setting. This is a big, albeit maybe unlikely wish of mine, but I’m hoping that those who didn’t get an actual happy ending in Undertale will by the end of Deltarune. I think it’s significant how you’re told to play Deltarune only after finishing Undertale. Outside of it generally bring more enjoyable when you recognize the characters and get the references, I think it’s also important to understand the story.

Toby has stated that Deltarune “is a different world with different rules, but that doesn’t mean there won’t be no connections between [it and Undertale.]” If you got a happy ending in Undertale, Deltarune isn’t a sequel to that. It’s a sequel to the soulless-pacifist/genocide ending, or a sequel to a pacifist ending unrelated to our own. Undertale has already made a point to say there’s other AUs and timelines going on separate from ours, which what I think Toby means by our specific playthrough being “untouched” if we got the pacifist ending.

Also, about the 3 save files. They are, frankly, extremely confusing to me, but I still have some things to say. It’s interesting how Asriel’s drawers (and I think other places in the room) each contain different things between the different save files. I have to wonder if they’ll be implemented in the story somehow, and if the differences will increase as the story goes on, but I can’t see how Toby will do that without making multiple endings in the process? I wonder if we’ll have to use them in the same way Omega Flowey did (who had multiple save files according to the souls).

Chapter 2

As for chapter 2, like I said earlier, I highly, highly doubt Kris is going to kill any monsters, that just wouldn’t fit with what we know of them so far. I wouldn’t be surprised if they do attempt to attack the soul though. I’m leaning more towards them threatening it, doing a fakeout stab or something (“who’s in control NOW?”), and dumping the soul somewhere. Maybe they’d succeed in killing it but the soul would just reload, to the last save point even, back within Kris, which they’re probably aware of. There’d be no point in killing it when it’d just come back to life, so I think Kris is going to get rid of it in a nonviolent way.

I’m not sure if we’d go straight to what happens there though? I heard in Mother 3, a game Toby clearly likes, each chapter starts off with a different character’s perspective or something, which would be good for suspense in Deltarune ch 2. We’d probably play as Susie or Noelle at first, I’m thinking Susie in particular. We’d see what her home life is like and where she lives (big mysteries in the game and a point of concern considering her eating habits). She’d go to school, but Kris isn’t there because they’re sleeping in and didn’t feel like going. They’d probably get away with it by telling Toriel they’re sick because literally everyone talked about how being possessed was making them look ill.

Susie wanders around town for a bit after school, mustering up the courage to ask Kris if they still want to go back to the Dark World because what if skipping school was their subtle way of rejecting her friendship? She comes across the red soul, goes what the fuck that’s KRIS’ soul?? Is immediately concerned and brings it back to them. Kris looks like they don’t give a shit but is internally freaking out, makes up some excuse, looking entirely too shady so the Kris-is-evil theorists can have some fuel before being shot down later.

And then we’d switch to their perspective (or, I guess we get to play as the red soul) where they talk to the red soul, initially Kris is very aggressive but somehow we figure out a way to communicate with Kris and tell our side of the story. Apologies are made and Kris is somewhat mollified. Maybe this time Kris consents to being possessed but makes up some ground rules or the two work together to find a different vessel, maybe the golden flower in Asgore’s shop?

Also in the middle of all this there’s a flashback to how the soul ended up where Susie found it. I think this could all work with Noelle instead too. We don’t know what she does after school and she has known Kris for a long time, she might know what their real soul looks like (Like I said earlier, I do think Kris’ actual soul is red) or at least how human souls aren’t white and are right side up.

Summarization of the most important theories I guess

—Kris is being possessed by the red soul, which belongs to an teenage Frisk after a pacifist or soulless pacifist route.

—Considering the options for when you talk to Sans (“Great to see you again!” vs “Who the hell are you?”) I think one half of most options (probably the left side) is something Frisk would like to say while the other half is what Kris wants to say.

—The Deltarune Universe was created by both UT Asriel (more specifically post-pacifist Flowey) and Chara, with help from Gaster. However, he’s manipulating them for his own agenda which is why the world is more than a little weird. Asriel and Chara probably don’t know the other is working with Gaster as well.

—Chara is aware that Gaster is shady and doesn’t fully trust him, to the point they’re interfering and outright arguing with him, unlike UT Asriel, who might have his memories scrambled up.

—Kris is Chara’s self-insert for the Deltarune world, while Ralsei is Flowey. I’m not exactly sure if DR Asriel exists.

—Even if Gaster will be an antagonist he’s getting an redemption arc. He just wants to exist again, but he’s getting too desperate.

—Sans (who is his UT self as far as I’m concerned) is here to keep an eye on the anomaly (Frisk) and make sure they don’t abuse their time-travel powers again. UT Papyrus is also here, knows more than one might expect, possibly to befriend the anomaly to discourage them from doing anything questionable (although I doubt he thinks badly of the anomaly, whether it’s us or Frisk).

—We should have read the fine print before “accepting everything that will happen from now on” because doing that allowed Gaster to steal our determination and now it’s his turn on the timeline.

—Determination still exists, otherwise we couldn’t save and reload the timeline, it just hasn’t been named by Alphys like in UT.

—Gaster is the one who put Frisk’s soul in Kris, while Chara was trying to tell Frisk what their real name is, before getting cut off.

—I think every character is getting a happy ending it’ll just take a while to get there.

—Not exactly a theory, but I find it very interesting how the Angel in the Legend is seen as some sort of enemy to peace between the Lightners and Darkners, while also being revered as a god in Hometown’s religion. Not to mention how the Angel in the prophecy of the Delta Rune is either Frisk, Chara, or Asriel in Undertale.

Annnnnddd that’s it I guess? Congrats if you got to the end, and I appreciate people reading this even if you didn’t read the whole thing. I’m not tagging this because I don’t want people coming onto this post to say how Chara or Kris are definitely evil, but I don’t mind discussion and people telling me they disagree with any of my theories.

[argentdandelion]

No Soul Necessary: Flowey’s Happy Ending (Part 2)

Introduction

As the previous part in the series noted, Flowey has many psychological problems, and getting a soul might not help. Yet, despite his soullessness, he can still have his happy ending.

For this, Flowey must do eight things: lose his power of SAVE (done), come to terms with his guilt and regret, stop hating himself, make meaningful relationships with others (even if they’re not very strong ones), fill his life with fun, novelty and piles of happy moments, and (on a more minor note) adjust to life as a soulless flower through spending time with humans like him, learn the perks of being a flower, and quality-of-life improvements like a flowerpot-wheelchair.

Guilt, Regret, and Self-Loathing

In some ways, Flowey resembles a person with antisocial personality disorder (ASPD, or sociopathy/psychopathy). Such people are often thought to not feel guilt or regret, and if they do, to not learn from it.

Yet, Flowey is different. He does feel regret or guilt. Most obviously, he feels guilty about “failing” Chara in the buttercup plan. One could argue this is just a memory of guilt when he was Asriel. However, that’s clearly not the case: in the Genocide Route, he also immediately regrets telling the genocidal human “Creatures like us...wouldn’t hesitate to KILL each other if we got in each others’ way���. In addition, in his True Reset speech, he says he doesn’t “think he can do it again”. Clearly, even when unable to feel love and compassion, he can feel some sense of regret or wrongdoing.

Even before his murderous Flowey Runs, Flowey had plenty of reasons to feel guilt. Firstly, his actions in the buttercup plan got both Chara and himself killed. Not only that, but, after the deaths of his children, Asgore declared war on humanity, causing Toriel to leave him. While Asriel/Flowey is only indirectly to blame, he likely felt very guilty when learning what had happened since his death.

Furthermore, Flowey’s guilt for murdering everyone in the Underground countless times (including Frisk), could lead to the Dobby effect, where inextinguishable guilt leads to excessive self-punishment. Reflecting on his actions might even lead to self-loathing: either for who he is (someone who's callously treated the whole Underground as his plaything) or what he is (a soulless, nigh-necromantic flower-abomination).

However, Flowey feeling guilt, regret, and self-loathing would both hinder and help his recovery.

On one hand, guilt and regret creates consequences for his actions. These consequences could be a workaround to his inability to feel love and compassion, and could help him stay out of trouble and keep more-or-less fulfilling relationships. A sense of self-loathing, too, might motivate him to become a better person, so he doesn’t hate himself.

On the other hand, Flowey might, out of guilt or self-loathing, choose to stay in the Underground, as a sort of prison sentence.1 He might also wallow in self-loathing to the point of gaining (or worsening) his depression. However, these forms of self-punishment won’t help him get better; he must confront his regret and guilt.

While he does just that (as Asriel) in the full flowerbed speech of the Pacifist epilogue, in some works, this meeting doesn’t happen. In fact, regaining a soul and love and compassion would just make things worse: his guilt would surely increase, thus making his mental health plummet.

Relationships with Others, and His Lack of Love, Compassion and Empathy

Losing his power of SAVE takes away its corrupting, mental-health eroding influence on him. Without it, he might be able to reconnect with others. After all, since he could memorize responses, people became predictable. His reducing people to sets of numbers and lines of dialogue worsened his problem. Without that power, people on the Surface cannot become predictable.

Furthermore, he can't undo any of his social mistakes: he must be more careful to start, keep, and strengthen relationships with others, even if they're weak due to his soullessness. He could learn to behave himself through self-interest: with permanent consequences, he can’t afford to snap and kill someone.

Though Flowey cannot really feel love and compassion, if his condition is anything like sociopathy, he could surely imitate signs of it, to some extent. Again supposing his condition is like sociopathy, he could be capable of cognitive empathy: a largely conscious drive to understand another’s perspective or mental state. It’s synonymous with perspective-taking, and it should allow him to act in the right ways to achieve wanted outcomes, and avoid bad ones. If he did perspective-taking and risk-balancing quickly and habitually, few could tell the difference.

It’s very likely Flowey is lonely. Though Flowey cannot really love anyone, he nonetheless longs for someone like him, someone unpredictable he’ll “never get bored of”, someone “like him”. He wants someone he’ll care about, even if he can’t really care about them. Even if he cares more about others as resources than people, if he only wants understanding and affinity, rather than actual love, it’s achievable.

Frisk could easily fulfill Flowey’s needs. Frisk is certainly unpredictable: Flowey expects, and wants, Frisk to finish him off after the Omega Flowey fight. Yet, Frisk does not: Frisk’s incomprehensible mercy baffles and scares Flowey.

While Frisk would likely be Flowey’s strongest relationship, it’s possible he could find new joys in the monsters whose responses he memorized as they adjusted to life on the Surface. Papyrus is one possibility: in a Neutral end dialogue, Flowey himself says it took a long time to “get bored of him.” It’s possible for Papyrus to become monsters’ ambassador, rather than Frisk. Seeing Papyrus adapt to the difficulties of human-monster politics could be exciting for Flowey.

There's also humans: a novel experience for Flowey. Asriel himself says, “There are a lot of Floweys on the Surface”. Though he surely meant to warn that life on the Surface wasn't perfect, it's true some humans feel little to no love and compassion and are still law-abiding. It's very likely Flowey can find people just like him on the Surface. He could join a group of PTSD sufferers, who have gone emotionally numb from trauma, or socialize with humans with ASPD, who naturally don't feel empathy.

Despair

Flowey killed himself not only because he didn't "want to live in a world without love", but also because he didn't want to live in a world without Chara. If not love, Flowey needs something to live for. In short, to stave off his despair, he needs purpose, meaning, and friends.

Flowey is unique for his immense knowledge of the Underground and all its people. By exhausting every possibility, he likely learned how every monster would react in any situation. This would be handy in human-monster politics, especially if his knowledge even partially applies to humans. Flowey could, as a sort of penance, find purpose in ensuring everyone is happy on the Surface, and advise whoever is the ambassador. After all, politics is so much more complicated than flirting and joking, and if Frisk is the ambassador, they're just a kid.

If he sentences himself Underground, Flowey’s despair will never lift. A few works mention recovering from trauma through happy little moments piling up; with his days on the Surface filled with fun and meaningful activities, Flowey might eventually get better.

In both the Pacifist and Genocide Route, Flowey says he’s tired of being a flower. While he might be conflating soullessness with having a flower body, and assuming getting a Boss Monster body would make him psychologically revert to "Asriel", it's possible having a flower body in itself makes him unhappy. For one thing, he can’t manipulate objects like he used to; he doesn’t even have hands. His mobility is also limited and strange as a flower; he probably can’t climb stairs, nor ride elevators.

Though most Post-Pacifist works show Flowey in a flower pot, this would probably make his condition worse. One work has Flowey move in a big flower pot with robotic arms (with hands) and legs; another fan improves upon the flowerpot trope with a dirt-filled wheelbarrow.

Related Reading

Flowey and PTSD

Kill 'em with Kindness (actually spun off from this section)

Incidentally, the author of this article has a Patreon.

The author shall dodge whether Flowey deserves at least a life sentence in favor of how to give him a happy life (that is, SAVE him). ↩︎

[erritiguei1]

The only problem with this is that in Undertale, the player IS acknowledged to exist. After the True Pacifist ending, Flowey directly addresses the player (explicitly saying “That's right. I'm talking about YOU.”) telling them only they have the power to True Reset. We know he’s not talking to Frisk as he says “Just let them go. Let Frisk be happy. Let Frisk live their life.” When addressing the player. And we know he’s not talking to Chara because he already accepted that they’ve been gone for a while.

And Chara? They also directly address the player. Specifically, “Your power awakened me from death. My "human soul." My "determination." They were not mine, but YOURS... You. With your guidance.” And then keeps using “us” when talking about erasing the world. At this point, there is no battle. Chara is looking directly forward, and addressing the player directly.

After you return to the destroyed save post-Genocide, they say “Interesting. You want to go back. You want to go back to the world you destroyed. It was you who pushed everything to its edge. It was you who led the world to its destruction. But you cannot accept it. You think you are above consequences.” At this point, everything is gone, including Frisk themselves. There is nobody this could be addressing BUT the player.

When you say that Toby would subvert everyone’s expectations that there is a Literal Player Entity, you’re ignoring that he ALREADY DID THAT in Undertale. If you reset after telling Toriel your flavor preference, she seemingly knows the answer already. When you encounter Flowey in the Ruins, and he gives you dialogue about being able to SAVE and stuff, you think “oh shit, Flowey’s aware of me, the player.” When you go on that date with Sans at the MTT Resort and he says that thing about you never having died, you start to think “oh shit does Sans know about me?” But then, in the Judgement Hall, he reveals that all this stuff is just game mechanics. It’s known quantities in-universe, and you realize “oh it’s not about me, it’s about these abstractions that characters in-universe are already aware of, to some degree.”

But THEN the True Pacifist and Genocide endings happen, and you realize “oh shit there IS some recognition for me as the player.” Toby untwisted the twist a bit, but very subtly.

Going into Deltarune after all this, we start at the opposite point. We’re told that our choices DON’T matter, and that’s seemingly reinforced throughout chapter 1. However, we reach the end with the player being able to choose dialogue that Kris wouldn’t know in-universe. And then the ending. The first twist is that the player actually DOES exist and that the game will be, in part, about Kris fighting to retake control of their life and narrative. And this is mostly reinforced in Chapter 2, most especially in the context of Spamton and the Snowgrave Route, where Kris is viscerally reminded of the Player’s influence over the events surrounding them.

What I don’t think will happen is the big twist will be “actually it’s NOT the player.” That would just be doing what Undertale did, but reversed, and I respect Toby too much to think that’s the endgame. It’s going to be a bit more nuanced than that. Kris doesn’t seem to be FULLY rejecting the influence of the Player, only rejecting the Player having FULL control. They’re not actively resisting the player the majority of the time, and even when they do, it’s mostly in the form of making dialogue options all lead to the same outcome (see: adding sarcasm to negative options, such as in the first Berdly fight). After the Spamton fight, they have a very visceral reaction to seeing what happened to him after having his strings completely cut, and they’re clearly not fine, even if the Player has them say they are. In Snowgrave, Kris doesn’t let the Player see what’s happening between Susie and Noelle. Kris knows that the Player had already pushed Noelle so far and hurt her so much that they don’t want to risk her getting hurt even more. Yet, despite all of this, they still out the Soul back in the ending.

There’s a lot to dig into here, and I love seeing analysis of these themes

I Swear That The Red SOUL Is Frisk Guys

I am a longtime believer that Undertale has no “player entity” in the game’s canon, as, unlike exp, lv, and saving and resetting, nobody in the game suggests that Frisk is being puppeted by some outside entity. Everyone in-game considers every route to be frisk’s doing. Yes, even sans and Chara.

Though in Deltarune, its pretty obvious that Kris is indeed being puppeted, and that puppeteering is done via the red SOUL. So how does “there is no entity that is The Literal Human Being In Front Of The Screen Playing The Video Game” theory stand up to that?

Well. Its right there in the title, folks.

REASONING!

1. It just feels like the sort of twist Toby would put in. Toby would totally look at a fandom full of people insisting that there’s a player and then make his new game look like there’s a Literal Player Entity only to then reveal that it was a previously established character all along.

2. Frisk “flirt with toriel and call her mom” Undertale would absolutely flirt with someone who looks like some sort of Asriel clone via the body of Asriel’s sibling.

3. The SOUL is aware of things that happened in Undertale. They know sans, they know about Undyne and Alphys and their relationship. They even know about how sans and Alphys were implied to know each other (if the dialogue option to suggest that sans should get to know Alphys alongside Toriel and Kris themself is any indication.)

4. As noted by tumblr user determinators, when Kris is knocked down before the Spamton NEO fight the SOUL moves on its own and rotates to turn yellow and fire bullets. Something Frisk could do during Undertale’s neutral and pacifist routes (since they do it without needing to access the phone again in Mettaton’s fight, it appears that it might indeed be something they can just do now.)

To answer the question of “Wait, how could the SOUL be Frisk from Undertale when Deltarune seems to be neither a prequel nor a sequel to Undertale?” Well, you see, if Toby wasn’t a homestuck, that could indeed be a hole. But he is, so we have to be prepared for the possibility of the ut/dr timeline looking something like this

(Image from here ^)

Addendum: i’ll admit i’m not totally sure on this because we can pick our file name, when in Undertale Frisk’s name was not the one we were allowed to pick.

[feralphoenix]

on chara & frisk as rpg player & protagonist allegory

this is something that i talked about on twitter last week and think is worth writing about in a little more depth here, so:

last week toby made some tweets about moon: remix rpg adventure and ways that its concepts helped inspire undertale despite that he'd never played it himself. there's a lot that you could talk about/analyze about the comparisons between those games, which i'll leave to someone who is familiar with or has actually played moon (i have not). the tl;dr version as relevant to what i want to talk about is that moon is a game that's designed to make rpg players think about rpg mechanics and conventions in a different light, i.e. "actually this thing i thought was ubiquitous and had accepted as normal is kinda screwed up upon second examination".

there's a lot of ways in which undertale does this with rpg mechanics and conventions, obviously, but i want to talk about chara and frisk because.............. i always want to talk about chara and frisk.

the more i think about it, the more convinced i become that the game mechanics relationship between chara and frisk is supposed to be a metaphor for the relationship between a game player and a traditional "silent" protagonist (or a protagonist with choosable dialogue).

rpg protagonists, even silent ones, usually have some form of canon character settings and personality. but because of the game structure, you are able to make them act in ways that completely contradict that canon personality. when you do this, you as the player are overwriting their personality, either with your own or at your whims.

wrt player-and-protagonist separation, @inverts once used link from the zelda series as an example, and he's a really good one so i'm going to borrow their comparison here. link has a canon identity and personality and he usually has a big world-saving goal. but whoever's holding the controller can ignore the fact that link is supposed to be a kind, brave young man with a strong sense of justice, and have him fritter away his time on minigames and attacking chickens instead of going to defeat ganondorf and save zelda. breath of the wild is a stellar example here because of its mind-boggling array of available distractions from the main quest. jokes about link faffing about still regularly cross my dashboard and twitter timeline. (case in point.)

many essayists have already pointed out that chara seems to operate like a typical rpg player or protagonist; i like to link to @gaytreasure's essay where they propose chara as morally gray/not good at empathy and misunderstanding the genre they're in, parsing monsters as the "good guys" they need to save, humans as the "bad guys" that must be destroyed, and themself as the main character who's supposed to fix everything a lot because it's good. to that i'd also like to add @lexyeevee‘s writeup here (cw for mention of pet death) where she points out that chara's behavior in returning to the surface while bodysharing with asriel, and specifically bringing their own corpse along, is very rpg player-ish: they are definitely out there to do some murders but they specifically wait for the enemy to attack first before they try to respond with lethal force.

if chara is an rpg player, then that makes frisk the character they're playing as. what happens to a silent main character when their player insists on playing them in a way that's completely out of character for them? the answer that undertale poses is grim: frisk fucks off in no mercy because this isn't something that they would do, because there's no room or leeway for them to exist in light of what you're having chara do with their body right now. chara's narration switches to first-person to reflect this, and flowey identifies that chara has "stolen" their body and soul.

on the other hand, the good ending for frisk is the one where the game acknowledges that they and chara are two separate people. the other characters learn their name, and they get to leave the underground in the land of happily ever after, where finished stories get to rest.

you, the player of undertale, the person sitting at the computer or console, are playing as chara, the protagonist of undertale. chara, meanwhile, is "playing as"/guiding frisk, the main character of undertale. frisk is chara's interface to the world of undertale, whereas chara is ours; frisk is just an npc to us.

this relationship is complicated by the fact that chara is a traditional rpg player/protagonist who has just been confronted with the total failure of Normal RPG Logic and is questioning everything they thought they knew, and is therefore following your instructions in hope that you'll give them answers. your play style therefore goes on to affect what chara learns from this experience and whether frisk is allowed to exist at all.

we don't get much input from frisk wrt their thoughts on this complex dynamic and their overall situation. we do get to hear a LOT from chara, though: on what they, as an rpg protagonist, think of us, their player (their "partner" whom they rely on and will listen to for the most part but will not hesitate to dunk on under very specific circumstances; they have a few more servile lines for dataminers that could be genuine or sarcastic).

we also know how they, as an rpg PLAYER, feel about their journey in either ultimate ending: in the no mercy speech they explain how you've taught them that their purpose is to gain power. in the oft-overlooked post-pacifist conversation with flowey, we learn from him that chara worries for and loves the game's cast (one of the first things flowey does is reassure us and chara that everyone is okay), and that chara progressed through the game wanting to keep the underground safe from flowey's control (which is a story objective that a lot of players forget about).

(flowey also brings up that chara's power is now the only thing that can endanger the happy ending, and because he too understands game player mentality, expresses that it wouldn't surprise him if we have already gotten the happy ending and true reset before. wanting to relive an emotional journey and see a happy ending over and over is pretty common rpg player behavior, too.)

BASICALLY THIS IS JUST A REALLY COOL REALLY MESSED-UP CONCEPT AND I LOVE HOW TOBY EMPLOYED IT??? UNDERTALE IS A GOOD GAME AND I LOVE THAT IT INVITES YOU TO THINK ABOUT YOUR GAMING HABITS IN NEW WAYS NO MATTER WHAT THOSE HABITS ARE

[7thdeterminedkid-blog]

((I would mention those signs, except they go away if you just stop killing.

But, since after LV20, you CAN’T stop killing, that’s no longer a choice, which means you wouldn’t be able to make those signs go away either. Maybe having some MERCY is enough to snap you out of this corrupted mind. But, eventually.. There is no turning back..

The big part is not being able to MERCY. So, yeah, you’d end up killing anybody if you get to the surface. A different human encounters you? You can’t walk away! You can’t spare! The only option is to FIGHT..

Asgore didn’t even WANT to fight you, but Frisk autmoatically does it anyway with no input. Flowey’s actually similar-Pressing Z is supposed to advance the dialouge. You’re advancing to what happens next. I’m curious why Frisk doesn’t ALSO attack Chara. So yeah. Humans are doomed from the one who tried to save them.. Quite ironic.

In fact, in the tainted Pacifist ending, if it wasn’t for Frisk seeming to turn into Chara, it might be plausible to believe that Frisk WASN’T possessed by Chara at all, and went to kill everyone by herself! Maybe that’s why the laugh is similar to Flowey’s. You have no SOUL (you sold it), so you’re becoming like Flowey. Flowey also started killing everyone because he was curious, a common reason that people would play the Genocide Route.. But Frisk DOES turn into Chara, so unless we can explain that, it’ll have to stay at Chara possessing Frisk..)) (( Reason why we can’t attack Chara is much obvious since their body is already gone. They are similar to Napstablook, a ghost-like being. Though in a sense like Mad Dummy, they try to fuse with Frisk’s body to become real. It becomes easier once LV has starts to corrupt Frisk, making them lose their mind in the process to make Chara’s own much easier to take over. Once they take over Frisk’s SOUL after the Genocide Run if they surrendered it, in a sense, they become corporeal and replace Frisk. The body is all that’s left, with Frisk’s mind and SOUL gone or taken, Chara is the only one left with those traits to fill in the empty shell. Which is why you see Chara at the end of a Post-Genocide Pacifist Run. ))