#vitriol that me not acknowledging her flaws doesn’t even BEGIN to even it out

[starlooove]

Cristina vees cover of bad apple is here in the wrong era bro where are all the animatics? The marinette disappears bc nobody treats her right and anonymously invites the whole class to her concert where she sings this and they realized how bad they fucked up but it doesn’t matter bc she’s moved on and just needed closure fics? Hellooo?! Maybe this is what they mean by fandom ain’t right anymore….

[agent-cupcake]

Hey AC! I love your blog and was wondering if I could get your opinion on something. I've seen some people complaining that Ingrid and Hilda are treated by the fandom, with Ingrid stans saying that Hilda is also racist towards Almyrans (which, granted, she is) but doesn't get nearly as much hate about it as Ingrid does. But personally I feel like their attitudes and the way they react towards Dedue/Cyril are wildly different and Hilda generally seems less hateful/irrational about it. Thoughts?

This is... kind of a touchy topic... I like it though! It’s worth discussing, especially since I feel like it’s broke criticism to simply deflect blame onto a character in order to prop up another.  Full and obvious disclosure: I very much dislike Ingrid and very much love Hilda. That said, I don’t think it’s fair to compare them for the sake of which is worse. I fall into the trap of character criticism through comparison far too often and it's not really valid unless you can fully explore each character in their own right beforehand. Which is why, while writing this, I came to the conclusion that the ways these two characters are interpreted and the reason people view their racist tendencies differently has far more to do with the characters themselves than their actual beliefs.

From first impressions to subsequent playthroughs, this is pretty much how I feel about Ingrid: she brings up her hatred of the Duscur people and Dedue unprompted and uncontested several times at the very beginning of the game, putting it front and center to her character. This is important, it sets a foundational component for how I could come to view her. According to her introduction, she is honorable and respectful, a model lady knight trope. But, as mentioned, she's really racist. Literally standing around thinking about how awful it is that Dimitri would trust a man of Duscur because they are all bad people. Yikes. And nobody calls her on it. Again, this is very important for perception. People judge Sylvain for his bad behavior in a much more harsh way than they do Ingrid for her vitriolic loathing for another classmate who we have seen as nothing but respectful. It's weird. And then, despite the fact that her close friend Sylvain was able to reason out that it’s not possible for the Duscur people to be at fault for the Tragedy, despite the fact that the prince of the country she supposedly hopes to serve with unwavering respect and loyalty has made it clear that he does not believe that Dedue or Duscar are responsible for the Tragedy, and despite the fact that Dimitri, her close friend and the one most affected by the Tragedy (seriously, she lost a guy she might have married and he lost his best friend, mother, and watched his father be killed in front of his eyes) continuously insists that neither Dedue nor Duscur are at fault, she loudly and openly believes that the ensuing massacre of Duscur was deserved and Dedue is inherently culpable simply because of his race. Her motivations for this hatred feel even more cheap considering her dogged hero worship for Glenn was born out of the fact that she was promised to him, making the fact that she’d use his death as reason enough for the destruction of countless innocent lives even more unsympathetic in my eyes. I mean, seriously, she was around 13 and he was older than her, how close could they have truly been? Dimitri says they were in love, but she was a child. Abandoning my modern sensibilities about age of consent or whatever, kids at that age don't have the emotional or mental capability. Maybe this is just nitpicking, but I have a very hard time caring about that relationship. But, if her actual justification is because of what happened to Faerghus as a result of the Tragedy and feels duty-bound as a knight to find justice through the systematic destruction of the Duscur people, then it just circles back to confusion considering the future leader of said country doesn't hold Duscur or Dedue responsible. The importance of perception comes in because despite these paper thin excuses and her seemingly willfully ignorant hatred, she is never challenged on her racist beliefs. The reason she seems to change her mind about Dedue and consider that maybe excusing a genocide is wrong stems from guilt that Dedue continuously comes to her aid in battle at the potential cost of his own life. I can understand, to a certain extent, why she might feel the way she does. But, again, I have such a hard time with any justification when nobody that she's close to is even nearly as hateful as her, there is plenty of evidence (evidence that the people close to her have found!) to provide a very reasonable counterclaim to Duscur's guilt, and that none of that even matters when it would require her to openly contradict the prince of her country to make the claim that Dedue was in any way complicit in the Tragedy. Which would be fine if she wasn't established as the model Lady Knight archetype, which also brings us into Ingrid's moral high horse. Admittedly, I hate the Lady Knight trope. I have a significant bias against these types of characters. However, I really do think that this moral crusade is where she lost me completely. Without even a shred of empathy or self awareness, she lectures Sylvain about his shitty behavior even though their circumstances are at least somewhat similar and he has his reasons (bad ones, maybe, but ones worth understanding if she actually cares about him), she lectures Felix about not being interested in knightly endeavors (an aspect of his character that is born of the trauma she has appropriated), and she lectures Claude about behavior that is befitting of a man in his position. Not because she cares about the girls Sylvain is hurting, not because she thinks there are any grave stakes from Felix choosing to do his own thing, and not because she knows that Claude's behavior affects his ability to lead, but because she doesn't like these behaviors and thinks they should be fixed. Yet, at the same time, she believes Dedue deserved to lose his family, country, and culture based on his birth and nobody ever does anything to morally correct her, it is something she eventually is forced to acknowledge on her own. It's frustrating, infuriating even, that the game lets her get away with being so grossly hypocritical. And, all the while, she is being painted as sympathetic. Again, I have a hard time feeling sympathy for her about Glenn, and I certainty don't feel sympathetic towards her issues about marriage because there's never any actual tension there. Of course she won't be forced to marry, she's a Lady Knight. Beyond being unsympathetic, I also find her massively unlikable. Awful design, poor voice direction, food-loving-as-a-personality-trait, the fact that she's written as one of those stock "feminist" characters who hate makeup and girly things until it benefits them, and constantly butting in on other characters to give her opinion without taking any criticism herself are all aspects that I just personally dislike. Ultimately, Ingrid being racist is only a symptom of the many reasons her character is one of my least favorites. Most of these points can be countered by someone who doesn't take issue with the things that annoy me and to point out that Ingrid DOES get over her racist beliefs. It's not fair to say that she doesn't change but, for me, the damage was already done by the time she became tolerable so I still have a hard time appreciating her. My assumption would be that there are a lot of other people who feel similarly to me regarding their dislike of Ingrid so they focus on one easy character flaw, her being racist at the beginning of the game, as a reason to validate their dislike of her overall.

On the other hand, Hilda's racism isn't a main trait of her character. It's related to her overarching character flaws, but she doesn't bring it up unprompted and can actually be pretty much missed without the Cyrill supports. Like you said, Hilda does seem less hateful and irrational, it doesn't take willful malice and an active rejection of reason for Hilda to dislike the Almyrans, they pose a genuine and provable threat to her family and territory, seemingly senselessly testing the borders and throwing away lives for the sake of conquest. To be clear, her "you're not like those OTHER Almyrans" schtick is legitimately nasty. Her behavior is gross and condescending and it really underscores the fact that Hilda is ignorant, lazy, inconsiderate, and incredibly comfortable in her privilege. She accepts what she's been told at face value because she's too lazy to look into it further. Cyrill does tell her she's stupid to think that way, though. Which is satisfying because Hilda in those supports is insufferable, it really highlights the worst aspects of her character, dismissive, manipulative, and very selfish. However, for me, she's also very likeable. I'm not interested in going over my opinions on her like I did with Ingrid as I don’t feel it’s as important to my point but a few reasons I really like her is because I think Hilda has a fantastic design, cute supports, amazing voice work, and is secretly sweet in a way that absolutely tickles my fancy. I am sure many people do not agree with me, which is fine. Additionally, just as Ingrid grows out of her racist beliefs, so does Hilda. They both end the game as more tolerant and caring people. Still, for the same reason a person could argue that Ingrid is actually great and I'm being unfair, they could argue that Hilda is terrible and I'm too biased. That's fair and true..... but I think the fact that Hilda is more generally appealing in conjunction with the less obvious nature of her racist attitude makes people less likely to dismiss her as a racist in the same way they do Ingrid. Unless they dislike Hilda, in which case, it’s all fair game.

Anyyyways, a main takeaway from this is that I highly doubt people are truly arguing on the individual basis of who's more racist, but that they're engaging in the age old waifu war. As with many characters in this game, it's easier to argue moral superiority when you can't quite articulate what you like or don't like about a character. Or, even worse, when you're arguing opinion. Even now, as is clear by reading this, I am arguing my opinion of why I don't like Ingrid. Not because she's racist, but because of the character traits and writing choices that make her unlikable to me. I like Hilda because, flaws and all, I find her to be compelling and enjoyable. From the people that I know, at least, that is basically how the Ingrid stans v Hilda racism argument is structured, even if they dress it up in different language.

By the by Hilda never talks about how the Almyrans deserve to be wiped out. I think that probably sours a lot of people's opinions of Ingrid no matter what happened afterward but that’s fine we can just pretend that didn’t happen

[starfolk7]

(I think this will take a while for you, but i got curious xd) Ornstein and Rowena

Oh my god. You’re right, this is gonna take me a while. It’s gonna be a long one. Apologies for the lack of a read more line. *cracks knuckles*

Which deadly sin are they?

After a lot of deliberation, the one that fits Ornstein the most in my mind is Pride. While he was a successful Captain of the Knights of Gwyn and thus probably highly aware of the needs of the surrounding people, he tends to think himself superior, especially when he first meets Rowena. Here is this bumbling little Undead human, dragging this sword on the ground, and she thinks she can walk into that cathedral and win against those that served their Lord under much more dire circumstances? The thought is, to him, laughable. Still, he has a fair bit to learn from her, and not about anything he expects.

Which of the seven virtues are they?

Diligence, no question about it. Does he have to be somewhere in ten minutes but with no clearly feasible way to pull it off? He’’s going to make that appointment, so help him. Did Gwynevere tell him to look after this Undead girl and make sure she lives to see the Kiln? Yes. Does he like the idea? Far from it. Will he do it anyway? As much as he likes to think he could walk away, he wouldn’t dare stray from his duty, no matter what it is. Unless something dire caused him to do so, that is.  

If confronted with the need to choose: goodness or kindness? Do they believe in a distinction between the two? (Think the Witch vs the Baker from Into the Woods.)

Kindness is a way to measure the goodness of a person. There are other factors that go into this, of course, but that is a main avenue of determining the quality of someone’s character, provided the circumstances aren’t wildly out of the ordinary. 

What do they have the least tolerance for?

When you’ve been a Captain for so long and you’ve probably overseen many other knights in addition, your tolerance for incompetence gets rather low. Hence why he has such a hard time not correcting Rowena on every little thing she does. However, he’s starting to figure out that she responds rather well to gentle prods in the right direction as opposed to harsher forms of criticism. At least then she doesn’t start showering him with insults and the occasional obscenity. 

I also like to think that his tolerance for loneliness is actually kind of low. He probably spent so long amidst the other Knights of Gwyn, and then suddenly, that company is just gone. In addition, no one really knows how well he got along with Smough. Enough to fight off the Undead that wandered into the cathedral, yes, but beyond that? Who knows? What I’m saying is, he needs more socialization and refuses to acknowledge it. You can only spend so long lost in your thoughts before the lack of company begins to change you. 

Which flaws are they aware of? Do they consciously work on them?

He’s. So. Stubborn. This is only magnified by the equally stubborn Undead he’s traveling with. He’s getting a little better about conceding to some things, but there’s still that major part of him that just sits there and says “my method is better” or something along those lines. Half of the problem is acknowledging it, though. Heaven forbid someone tries to call him out on it. 

What view/belief are they most wrong about?

I think he’s got this skewed perspective of humans. It would stand to reason, since he was basically among gods and he himself was granted a special soul. In comparison, humans are just...wow, they’re annoying and in the way. How a good chunk of them have survived this long is beyond him. The Undead Curse doesn’t help things, and he’s only further baffled by Rowena’s actions. But there’s still plenty of room for him to grow. Perhaps his view of humans will change. 

Their opinions on loyalty?

Loyalty is so important to Ornstein. If you’re sworn to a person or a task, you keep to them/it unless something catastrophic occurs to the bond. He has a few issues determining what exactly those catastrophic terms are, but it’s something he keeps in the back of his mind. Regardless, it’s a good chunk of why he didn’t stop Rowena from punching Patches into the ground. Sure, he stopped her from outright killing him, but Patches broke a bond of trust. Honestly, Ornstein would have been shocked if Rowena didn’t lash out. 

So you know their lawful/chaotic good/evil alignment. Do you want that to be a rule they function by for the entire work, or will they be challenged enough to shift into a different square?

As it stands right now, Ornstein falls under the Lawful Good square overall, in my opinion. However, it’s entirely possible (and very probable) that he will at least fluctuate between Lawful and Neutral Good, if not shift entirely. Gotta leave room for powerful knights to grow in different ways, y’know?

Unless all of your characters have devoted a lot of time to puzzling out their philosophy, no one’s perfectly consistent. How are they hypocritical? Where do they contradict themself? Will they be challenged on it?

Ornstein has a pretty solid policy on loyalty, duty, all of that. However, he likes to make it rather apparent, at least to Rowena, that he’s not enjoying this particular duty. I’m fairly certain he aspires to show some level of compassion, as well, but it falls rather short when it comes to the Undead. There’s a particular exchange that’s pointed this out already:

“Running errands for the damned, are we?”

She shot a glare at Ornstein, who was just as still at the bonfire as when she left. “They are not damned. Not if I can help them.”

“While you actions are admittedly admirable for someone of your ineptitude,” he started, “you cannot help every being you come across. You have your own quest to embark upon.”

“That doesn’t mean I have to let others suffer along the way.”

The level of suffering that the surrounding Undead are saddled with aren’t immediately apparent to Ornstein, and because of the previous Undead that have attempted to kill him, and the bonus of Rowena, he’s not as inclined to devote his energy to caring. You could say that the time he spends with Rowena challenges this point quite a bit. 

How does their personality present conflicts and challenges in their setting/story?

The fact that his goals and Rowena’s goals initially conflict presents a good amount of conflict. Neither of them want anything to do with each other, and he sees her as wildly inferior to himself. It makes working together that much harder. Their vitriol is starting to wane, but given that they’re both stubborn and have different views of the world, they’re still going to have plenty of conflict down the line. Certain circumstances will also force his hand on things that will create personal conflicts. Many, many personal conflicts. He’s going to have more issues than a tabloid stand, and he already has enough.

Alrighty, onto Rowena!

Which deadly sin are they?

Wrath. Wrath all the way. As kind and forgiving as she can be, Rowena can unleash a terrifying sort of fury. If Ornstein hadn’t stopped her, she might have flat out murdered Patches brutally. She’s sought out revenge at least one other time, not counting the times in her life before she was afflicted by the Darksign. She can be a vengeful and petty young woman when she wants to be. There’s usually some sort of reason behind it, but either the reason is childish or she takes her actions too far. It’s only gotten worse on this journey, since nearly everything and everyone is out to kill her. There’s a lot of pent up frustration that she hasn’t fully expressed, and she probably won’t admit to much more of it until later.

Which of the seven virtues are they?

Kindness. Rowena is full of compassion and empathy towards her fellow Undead, and she goes out of her way to help them, even though she has plenty on her own plate to worry about. She’ll even do small things to make others happy, like bringing them simple gifts or holding a nice conversation with them. She’s slowly learning to apply this kindness to Ornstein, but it’s a work in progress.

Side note: Kindness is apparently also considered to be one of the Knightly Virtues. Make of this what you will. 

If confronted with the need to choose: goodness or kindness? Do they believe in a distinction between the two? (Think the Witch vs the Baker from Into the Woods.)

Rowena believes that people’s actions speak more for the kind of person they are than the promises they make. Someone can tell her all they like that they’re going to be a good person, but she’s more inclined to believe them if they’ve been kind to her or someone else before. Bad actions are redeemable to a point. Then again, her tolerance for said actions has gotten considerably lower since starting her adventures...

What do they have the least tolerance for?

Cruelty. She has basically zero tolerance for people that hurt others just for the fun of it or for their personal gain. She has memories of hunting others down for doing this in her time before the Undead Curse. Seems like this has carried over to her current journey.

Rowena also can’t stand to be told what to do for very long. She’s very much accustomed to figuring things out for herself, so following strict rules and facing constant scrutiny is a huge source of stress. 

Which flaws are they aware of? Do they consciously work on them?

Rowena is painfully aware of the fact that she’s stubborn and loses track of her surroundings if she’s caught up in a whirlwind of emotion. But again, she’s spiteful to the nth degree, and she will build a fortress out of spite if she feels the situation calls for it. She’s slowly working her way out of that habit, though. No one’s going to succeed if she keeps it up, and Ornstein is pretty handy to have around. 

What view/belief are they most wrong about?

She tends to glorify the people like herself and side-eye the beings who had all of the power. In a way, it’s reasonable, considering her position and what she’s had to deal with. However, it also clouds her judgment and hinders her progress. So, she’s kind of right, but not completely right. Her protocol needs a bit of tweaking. Not everything is quite as black or white as she likes to think it is sometimes. 

Their opinions on loyalty?

Very important. It’s a subject she and Ornstein agree on. She’s been tempted to run off and ruin his duty, not to mention all of the times she’s threatened to poison him, but she doesn’t. She learns how important it is to him, so it’s one of the first signs of consideration for him when she settles into her journey with Ornstein and doesn’t run off into the void of Lordran. Besides, he’d probably find her pretty quickly. She’d get stuck in a tree or on a cliff and he would just shake his head before helping her down.

So you know their lawful/chaotic good/evil alignment. Do you want that to be a rule they function by for the entire work, or will they be challenged enough to shift into a different square?

Currently, Rowena is sitting pretty in the Chaotic Good square. Rules can and will be broken. Well, the rules that are left in this dying land, anyway. As long as it helps someone, including herself, and works towards solving the problem at hand, she’ll probably do it. However, there’s probably a few things that would occasionally dip her into the Chaotic Neutral square. For the most part, though, she’s Chaotic Good. 

Unless all of your characters have devoted a lot of time to puzzling out their philosophy, no one’s perfectly consistent. How are they hypocritical? Where do they contradict themself? Will they be challenged on it?

She preaches kindness, but has trouble going through with her own philosophy when it comes to people she’s none too keen on being around for long periods of time. Even though her anger towards Ornstein is starting to soften, she hasn’t exactly treated him well. It’s going to take a lot to rectify that attitude.

How does their personality present conflicts and challenges in their setting/story?

Her entire being creates conflict. Rowena escaped her home and wandered the world until she was snatched up and thrown in the Northern Asylum to rot for eternity. When she finally did escape, she faced a multitude of horrors. She was forced into the role of the Chosen Undead simply because no one else had really made it that far. She had nowhere else to go and not many people to trust, so she threw her faith into Frampt and rushed headlong into Anor Londo, hoping that her life would become marginally easier. Instead, she begged for Ornstein’s mercy, was saddled with said knight as a travel companion, and has to learn how to reconcile her own personality with his, lest they end up murdering each other at their earliest convenience. They’re stubborn, and she’s downright exhausted from everything she’s had to deal with, but her options are limited, and the thought of going Hollow terrifies her. She wants to end the curse, and this is the only way she knows how. It’s worth trying. Still, the thought of failure cuts at her drive. Basically, she’s a tiny bundle of fear and confusion and she’s not having a good time. Nevertheless, as frustrated and clueless as she is, she presses forward. Sitting around isn’t an option she can afford.

Welp, that’s the second Dark Souls related essay I’ve written in...three days? I don’t mind, though. It’s really fun to think about these things and write them down! Plus, I love these two a lot.