#valentino 2017

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Valentino Fall 2017

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after 2015 until 2018 it seemed that things had calmed down a bit between valentino and marc, in the sense that they had started to be polite between them again and valentino no longer seemed to be on a war footing. then after argentina obviously the situation worsened again. in the podcast where valentino spoke in 2021 if I'm not mistaken, when he talks about marc,however, he only refers to the events of sepang and not to what happened in argentina which instead seemed to have been the final “divorce”. so my question is, during 2016 and 2017 did valentino just pretend to put up with marc? because in that podcast you can feel valentino's resentment is still a lot even after many years, so I imagine it must have been even greater in the two years immediately following sepang, even if it didn't seem if you see how he behaved

well. look. it was reflected in how valentino behaved... I think sometimes if you see isolated photos and gifsets, you can maybe be left with a bit of a mistaken impression of what that dynamic actually looked like for those two years. they got to a point post-catalunya where they were civil to each other, and maybe they'd exchange two lines in greeting, at podium celebrations, when somebody in a presser made a joke... and maybe marc at the very least was sincerely hoping they could get back to something like what they had before 2015. in reality, though, it was still very very far away. it wasn't open hostilities... at some point in 2016, valentino realised he simply couldn't go on like this. I talked about it a bit here:

you get this discrepancy in his 2016 output, actually. if you compare what he's saying that autumn for written press interviews vs what he's saying with marc right next to him... he'd clearly decided there was zero point in directly fanning the flames. at the sepang 2016 presser when marc and him are quizzed on what had happened the previous year, he just goes with marc's response and decides against reopening the controversy by adding anything from his side. but he still made it clear he hadn't changed his mind in interviews from the exact same time period! at times, he tolerates marc's tentative advances - at other times, he's almost accidentally sucked in, like he can't quite help himself from laughing at something marc has said. but there was never a period where he forgave marc for what he'd done... for various reasons he just decided he wasn't going to harp on about it too much. he did basically say as much post-argentina 2018:

but yeah, argentina 2018. it's an interesting one, isn't it? the stuff that valentino says there doesn't actually feel... quite in line with anything else he's said about marc. typically, when valentino criticises marc, it really is all about sepang 2015 - it's very focused, very specific, he's talking about being unable to forgive marc on a personal level for something marc had done to valentino... but it's not like he's really coming at marc for anything else... when other riders have gotten into spats with marc, he's stayed out of it - and generally he remains pretty neutral when he talks about everything else concerning marc. so, for example, there's a world where the moment alex rins is saying marc doesn't respect other riders in 2019, valentino immediately jumps at the opportunity to offer his hot take... but he doesn't do that. and yes, he had criticised marc's riding before, in particular in marc's moto2 days, but obviously those criticisms were considerably more restrained and sounded at times quite worried for marc's sake. (he also got close to that in silverstone 2016 when he remarked marc had 'something special' for their battles, but a) he's not wrong, except insofar as it's clearly mutual, and b) he explicitly said he didn't have a problem with that fight and considered it hard but fair). in 2017, when valentino was criticising other riders for being too aggressive... well, he wasn't doing so with marc, and he even conceded the point to marc in subsequent races after marc had obliquely criticised valentino at cota for his rhetoric not matching up to his own riding. when valentino's young riders have gotten into their own spats with marc, he's not waded in either, at most saying stuff about marc's fight with pecco that from his lips sounds almost like something akin to praise. radio silence after bez's run in with marc at the end of last year... argentina 2018 is the exception not the rule

and you know... at the end of the day, that was an emotional reaction. valentino might be wearing the habitual smile on his face during the media debrief and sound reasonably calm and composed, but he was furious. which, it's always worth remembering, isn't an entirely unreasonable reaction to that specific situation. yes, valentino doesn't have a clean track record either, but you're going to struggle to find such a... weaponised carelessness, a blatant disinterest in his fellow riders while shoving them aside, in the way marc was exhibiting that day - and indeed that whole weekend. looking back, of course argentina 2018 ended up being an isolated blot on marc's track record that he's not come close to repeating since (yes, he's made high profile errors that took out other riders, but it's different)... but we didn't know that at the time. also, I doubt valentino much appreciated being treated just like an obstacle in marc's path! the fact that valentino wasn't the only marc victim that weekend kind of has an interesting effect, because you have to doubt whether it would have helped if valentino felt like he was being targeted specifically by marc, but on the other hand... well, it's almost disrespectful, isn't it... being singled out is in a way still better than being brushed aside like any other rider

still, valentino's pushing it with his criticisms, he's out of line, and he clearly did lash out in the heat of the moment - which was of course largely a product of the resentment he'd been holding onto those past two years. calling marc's behaviour that day dangerous? sure, you'd find a lot of agreement for that. saying that marc was ruining the sport? that he was intentionally causing other riders to crash? ... well, hold on one moment. I reckon the simplest explanation is the best one here: valentino was angry and said stuff he wouldn't otherwise say, which we know because he's not done so before or since. of course, he was never going to retract what he said about marc that day - he wasn't ever going to apologise for it. not with their history, not when there was still just enough about those argentina comments that he meant... so he wasn't going to feel too much regret about the bits he wouldn't have said under any other circumstance. the problem post-2015 for valentino is that constantly signalling his fury to the world wasn't doing him much good... but pretending like everything was just fine clearly also took a bit of a toll. argentina 2018 wiped the slate clean - even though they gradually crept back towards basic civility after that. and valentino really didn't continue with that line of critique... since then he's basically completely reverted back to a sepang 2015-centric approach. maybe a few hints at it... in 2021, he said something along the lines of how he doesn't feel good when he's on-track with marc, but that's pretty generic while also crucially being personal - he's not saying marc is a problem for the series, he's saying it's them specifically that have an issue with each other

which doesn't mean he didn't believe what he said in argentina 2018 in the moment... when they reconvened in cota and had marc and valentino do separate media debriefs from the main presser, valentino said he stood by his comments - but also didn't actually repeat them or elaborate on them or anything. he's back to terse short responses to the press' questions, saying he wants to focus on the race ahead: kind of the go-to approach when it comes to marc post-sepang (with notable exceptions). he's walked his strongest comments back as much as he was probably ever going to - by simple virtue of the fact that he's left it at that. and you know, he's a complicated guy... 2016-17 was both pretending and it also wasn't. he didn't act like everything was forgotten, but he certainly was willing to let people believe that this relationship might end up being mended - which quite frankly was probably never going to happen. mostly, he was just sort of sick of the whole thing, struggling to enjoy himself in what had become such a charged, hostile environment for all the riders involved. at the same time, look - fundamentally, the interpersonal chemistry with marc was always fine. they click as people! they click as riders! marc makes valentino laugh! sometimes, that line between 'pretending' and 'letting yourself pretend' and 'actually not pretending at all' can be quite thin. when valentino talks in that time period about how much he enjoyed a battle with marc, of course he isn't lying - because he really does enjoy those fights! that's what racing is all about for him, and that's something him and marc still share! as long as marc isn't barging him aside and causing him to crash, that is. maybe it'd be easier if it were all a pretence, but it wasn't... sometimes, when you say you thought a race was hard and fair, you really do mean it and you really did have a lot of fun. sometimes, the struggle isn't actually acting nice for the cameras, it's trying to bite down the temptation to laugh alongside your sworn enemy

see also assen 2016... like, isn't this kinda wild? you've just had catalunya the race before, you've just had the mere semblance of a tentative start to a possible reconciliation - then they return to the place that was really the beginning of the end for them. they go on a few track familiarisation laps, including to check out the resurfaced final chicane (aka the scene of the crime). they race each other on said track familiarisation laps. then marc brings it up in the presser, giggling about the whole thing, and apparently valentino also finds it pretty funny - before he visibly swallows up his grin. later that weekend, marc pointedly decides to try out valentino's final chicane move himself during the warm up session. this is all obviously deranged, but it's a type of deranged where they are fundamentally on the same wavelength. it's the kind of ridiculous behaviour they're both incredibly fond of... you see it in how valentino shrugs off the towing at catalunya 2019, and thinks it speaks to marc's smarts and wiliness - unsurprising, really, because they're so similar in that regard, and valentino has never shaken his admiration for marc as a competitor

valentino can clamp down on his animosity towards a rival during his direct interactions with them... lord knows if you watch a few of the casey and valentino face-to-face interactions over the years, you really wouldn't match that up with the sheer vitriol of some of the stuff they were concurrently saying about each other in the press. that rivalry was never really personal (on valentino's end), it was never fraught in the same way (for valentino anyway) - still, it shows he's theoretically capable of separating this stuff out when he needs to... and he just about managed with marc for two years. if he had just been waiting for an excuse, surely you would have heard at least a hint of that when him and marc swapped paint in 2017. you never quite knew how he was going to answer the inevitable questions about marc's riding, but no direct criticism was forthcoming at any stage. the post-argentina 2018 rhetoric wasn't in any way premeditated from valentino's side, and personally I don't think he was just waiting for an excuse either. it was the result of a constant internal conflict between knowing that engaging in any more active beef with marc wouldn't do anyone any good, and the fact that he still hadn't forgiven marc... and then a race came along that simply pissed him off enough to push him over the edge

from 2016 onwards, valentino both very much wanted and very much did not want further conflict with marc, and neither of those impulses ever quite go away. usually, he's disciplined enough to avoid stoking the flames any further... potshots to the press outside of the paddock are essentially a free and harmless outlet in that regard, and even there you can tell he was trying to scale it back in the years where he was being forced to directly interact with marc. he was pretending and not pretending and sometimes pretending like he wasn't pretending and sometimes pretending like he was pretending. maybe it would have always just taken one major on-track confrontation for things to fall apart between them again... but you do kinda have to acknowledge the whole thing was really unfortunate. I've long thought that something like sepang 2015 was pretty inevitable as long as valentino managed to put himself in title contention once marc had joined the premier class, but I don't actually feel the same way about argentina 2018. an awful marriage of circumstance and coincidence and bad choices caused the relationship to fall apart again this badly. valentino might have had some more or less sincere misgivings about marc's riding, but at the end of the day he wasn't going to ever express them unless it got personal - because all of these people are incredibly self-centred and valentino wouldn't have felt like it was worth it. he lost his temper, he said some stuff he might partly but not fully believe, he's not inclined to bring it up again. that's that

[godfrey-the-chaos-duck]

Scrooge mcduck and valentino

my first, immediate thought was a horrified "... IN WHAT CONTEXT? DOING WHAT????" before I remembered the ask game PWKFDGJK

anyway for moth bitch valentinhoe

much as i hate to admit it he is a Well Designed Character. Unfortunately his hotdog-water personality outweighs his cool design

now for Scrooge McDuck (who is. my fave guy ever)

listen @achilleanauthor i know you haven't seen much of DuckTales but trust me this man is very very gender and probably bi in some way (it isn't shown but like come on the guy's over 150 you can't tell me he hasn't experimented a LITTLE)

also it's david tennant. come on.

[whoregaylorenzo]

QATAR GP 2017: Maverick Viñales starts from Pole in his debut race for Yamaha. After initially falling back to P5 at the start, he makes his way back up through the ranks and after an exciting battle with Andrea Dovizioso comes home in P1. His teammate Valentino Rossi completes the podium in P3. A noteworthy performance also by Aleix Espargaró in his debut for Aprilia finishing P6 and earning Aprilias first top 6 finish since they rejoined the competition. This win makes Maverick the second youngest rider to win with two manufacturers.

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Look 36 | Valentino Pre-Fall 2017

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All Valentino Rossi factory Yamaha YZR-M1 2009-2020.

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Valentino Rossi Sachsenring GP 2017

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Valentino ready to wear fall 2017

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Valentino / Fall 2017 RTW

[alternativerunway]

Valentino Fall 2017

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RANDOM THOUGHT! BUT

jorge lorenzo choosing that dichotomy angel/demon as his symbol, u cant tell me he wasnt inspired by the sun/moon thing

Like come onnn

oh my god yeah. surely!! like you say, it's a dichotomy just like the sun/moon thing, and it's conceptually similar enough to valentino's that... surely... yeah. all about establishing this little network of symbols for himself, his own web of meaning - overtaking around the outside!! x-fuera!! lorenzo's land!! butter and hammer!! angel/demon!! - to build his own narrative about his career. and this tendency is obviously tied to his penchant for celebrations, where he ALSO has a complicated relationship to valentino. on the other hand he's very insistent that the whole thing was NOT originally inspired by valentino, but then on the other he's hyper aware of valentino's influence... so of course he wants his own set of codes too!! that are both inspired by valentino but doing his own thing! and yeah!! sun/moon vs angel/demon,, that does feel like!! surely!!

what I find interesting is how valentino doesn't really talk much about this sun/moon stuff, there's just a bunch of symbols and narratives and imagery he tosses in there sometimes without really verbalising why he's doing it. kinda leaving it up to others to read into it for the most part. whereas jorge is obviously... not like that, way more willing to actually discuss this stuff. there's clearly something appealing to him about the idea of having a 'good' and a 'dark' side, he likes all this self-reflection stuff, loves a bit of omphaloskepsis, wants to continually analyse himself and discover his inner truth or whatever. and if he'd seen all the sun/moon stuff growing up and was thinking how much he vibed with that kind of dichotomy... of course it's extremely jorge to want to put his own spin on something valentino did in this way. makes perfect sense

was thinking about this passage from jorge's biography, obviously not written by jorge directly but the whole thing was written in close collaboration with him --

The material for this book was therefore a little unusual and the only possible objective was to get to the bottom of this combative, glory-hunting rebel, who sometimes looks at the world with defiance and arrogance and at other times with fear and a burning desire to learn and be liked. The devil in him has probably become more famous than the angel, because there have been plenty of controversial stories written about Jorge in the past. But his intimate side is interesting as well, and it's never too late for you to get to know him.

-- which. lol. what a writing style. but anyway, I do think this ties into the appeal of the whole thing to jorge... he sees the two sides in fundamental opposition and also thinks the devil side is non-negotiable for professional athletes (true) but. but,,, the angel side is kinda like. what he's had inside him all along. the secret soft boi underneath the hard shell

and then there's a quote from yamaha stablemate james toseland,, where he's talking about jorge and valentino and it's kinda on a similar theme (x):

once the helmet's off, jorge's shy!! reserved!! a nice bloke!! the devil version is cocky and annoying, but he's also got this Other Side to him....

but yeah, unlike with valentino, we do actually have jorge himself talking a fair bit about this stuff. give us some insight into his thinking on this. like from 2013 --

-- where he's linking the branding to the 'devilish' number... the 99. he wants to be a good guy!! but he also can't lose his devilish side!! and this from from 2014 (x) --

-- where he's saying he's more of a devil than an angel because of the nature of competition. and this from 2017 (x) --

-- which. fascinated by the idea that yamaha was like... no. no devil horns on our bike. in the same spirit as forcing him to work with a psychologist, a red line. he did finally get to add the devil's horns in his ducati time:

and lastly this from 2017, where he expands on his choice to switch to two devils (x):

it's all aggressively jorge, isn't it. like valentino, he's hyper aware of his personal branding and puts so, so much thought into it. but he's more talkative about it than valentino is, just a bit more earnest about the whole thing. still talking about switching numbers, getting rid of the manager linked to the original '48'... of course that was hugely meaningful to him, of course he takes these branding exercises very seriously as a means for self-expression. also very endeared by him talking at several points about how he's more of an angel now, he's striving to be more of an angel, the angel as an ideal etc etc. BUT the demon/devil is non-negotiable and a part of him he must also embrace... to achieve his internal balance... but now that he's got TWO devils, he interprets the devil as being more mischief than evil. fascinating

and it's very valentino in how jorge finds a way to tie this into his own arc!! "special tastes that may not be understood by everyone" - Your Fave Is Queer-Coded lol - but also the point is that it's very much an expression of individuality, him determined to make his peace with being a bit of a rebel, a non-conformist, his own guy etc etc. the valentino commitment to self-narrativisation, this tendency to refer back to his own past work and build on it. very valentino-esque commitment to the drama of it all, the theatre of talking about The Angel and The Devil inside himself,, he's so sincere about it, so dedicated to verbalising what these two sides mean to him at different stages of his career, what it means for him to balance them. he needs the devil!! he's becoming more of an angel!! the devil is an inevitable part of competitive sports!! he's getting himself two devils!! the two devils are about mischief not evil!! and so on

MY random thought I'd somehow never had before is that. given that this is jorge's whole... thing, isn't it kinda funny that valentino repeatedly used 'god' and 'devil' to describe casey?? I mean to be clear this definitely wasn't aimed at jorge, it predates the jorge rivalry and certainly the angel/devil thing, it's just kind of funny. valentino, jorge would have loved you to use those descriptors for him!! but no, it was very much a casey thing to valentino,, he deploys the 'devil' label once each for two other riders (toseland and elias) but not for any of his other major rivals afaik. valentino uses the word to talk about casey as early as 2007 and as late as 2011 -- for whatever reason, this is very much linked to casey in his mind. annoying

anyway. yeah. I agree with you -- I think it's got to be very likely that jorge was on some level inspired by the sun/moon thing. similar conceptually in terms of exploring his inner dichotomy or whatever, a way of building on his own little network of symbols, him once again wanting to put his own spin on some rossi magic. and he stuck with it a long time!! he adopted the symbols in 2008, in a period of personal turmoil and also during his first year as valentino's teammate. and so he dealt with all the stress and the change and the trouble and the heartache by: coming up with a new number, figuring out all the ways said new number was weighty and meaningful to him, thought of new symbols that would fit in with this rebrand, made it all part of his Journey of Personal Growth. probably inspired by valentino - it is just quite similar the more you think about it!! the balance between valentino's light and dark side, of course jorge would vibe with that. and it makes sense for jorge to look to valentino for inspiration on that kind of thing!! and then he made it into a Whole Thing... very sweet

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ooc. not gonna let you forget how seggsy chrom's beefy arms in his chromas outfit. come get yo giftu. perhapseee.

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Jennifer Lopez | Valentino gown | Met Gala: Rei Kawakubo/Comme des Garcons: Art of the In-Between | 2017