#u already answered me so theres no need to rehash

[a-mouse-named-blu]

No no no this all makes sense op.

1stly thank you for the response. I'm with you on everything you said although I probably didn't phrase it that well.

LIKE I HEAVILY BELIEVE MEN ARE PUNISHED FOR BEING MEN THE WRONG WAY. (And maybe this is because I have been socialized as a black female) But the way I see it. Manhood as it exists in the world is intrinsically tied to white supremacy. Like that's how we measure what is masculine or feminine. So to be seen as a man or masc you have to align urself strictly with being a cishet white nuerotypical able bodied male and any deviance from that is strictly punished. Same thing on the opposite spectrum with femininity. (So if I were to explain this with myself as an example. I'm punished by society not because I'm female but because I'm queer and black and masculine AND A FEMALE. I'm punished for every wrong adjective that proceeds the gender. Which is how I understood idk...the world?)

I also agree about the radfem philosophy that is actively hurting masc trans and nbs. That was what I was trying to allude to when I was talking about gender essentialism and puritan takes in progressive spaces. It's the most frustrating type of brain rot.

I, personally, am still figuring my gender out. Black people have always existed outside the white gender binary. And due to my size, skin color, and appearance I often experience many of the same problems black men, black trans mascs (femmes too but that's not relavent here), black masc nbs, and black studs post about online.

But im not trans???? Idk. None of the labels really fit as of right now. I like my femininity but have never truly felt feminine. Like I said I'm still figuring it out. And the fact that most queer discussions are dominated by whites doesn't really help.

All I DO know is that the things that hurt or help the trans community on any part of the spectrum do actively hurt or help me. And that our trans mascs and masc nbs def need more support n love.

Like im still affected regardless of whether I was the intended target. So I find that most of the time I'm interacting with the same posts and try not to say anything one way or the other cuz I understand it's not my place.

But, yeah, when the transmisandry ---> transandrophobia discourse dropped and then v quickly (some of the loudest ppl) became anti-black and misogynistic that was extremely jarring and off putting.

Like a group I felt kinship with just valued about how much they despise people just like me. It also felt like very terf/radfem like in certain cases.

There are still tons of trans men I follow and support and none of them really use any of those terms. But idk. It is something that has always deeply bothered me.

You are def right that we, as in ppl that are not confirmed trans mascs, will have to ease up on whatever word is officially chosen. Cuz every new word will probably just feel like some insidious cover for "transmisandry" which is what I'm pretty sure happened to transandrophobia as soon as it dropped.

I'm...also not sure...how I feel about it being "more than transphobia". I understand what you mean so please don't think I'm reading this in bad faith. But I've always thought of transphobia alone as being incredibly nuanced and complicated. Because there is no one type of trans person. And transphobia is interwoven with racism and intersexism and sexism and ableism innately. I felt like transmisogny is just the type that's the easiest to make one word out of.

I always thought that the problem was that as a queer community we are not boosting the voices of our trans community properly which was creating a very narrow idea of what transphobia alone could entail. And maybe it's hard with everything under one tag too when everyone's experiences are different. (Like how we can call lgbt bigotry homophobia but we still have like gay specific homophobia, lesbophibia, biphobia, etc etc)

Anyways I'd like to thank you for responding. I've tried to figure out more specifically about the semantics around the terms transmisandry and transandrophobia but everything I interact with is either aggressively pro or aggressively con and I wasn't getting anywhere.

Some folks would rather spend their energy intellectualizing in unrealistic, immaterial ideals while looking for reasons to be holier-than-thou. They're too busy power tripping on keyboards to see shit that is right in front of them when it comes to what trans men and trans mascs live with.

How can you witch hunt people in your own community like this and not question for even a second who might have put it in your head to divide us? (the answer is cis people, radfems, and bioessentialists in general). You're helping them, you're holding hands with and playing into the agendas of radfems and conservatives, which is to make us self-cannibalize so we can't actually make any fucking progress bc were too busy biting one another's heads off over semantics.

How do you cope with the fact that this attitude can and WILL inflate the issue of trans masc suicide, because if we can't even turn to other trans people then what the fuck do we have.

Stop alienating us and deciding the only good trans masc is one willing to self-destruct and self-deprecate! You all are GASLIGHTING an entire branch of the community. The amount of trans mascs I see folding and tokenizing themselves in this argument bc if they don't they'd be immediately cancelled is ridiculous. You are tone policing people on their own god damn trauma and oppressive experiences, INCLUDING and ESPECIALLY the trans mascs of color being harassed and accused of racefaking over this discourse.

Meanwhile half of the "transandrophobia truther exclu/proud transmisandrist" crowd claim that "only white trans mascs are talking about this lolol y'all wanna be oppressed so bad" For fucks sake would you listen to yourselves? Actually no- please STOP listening to yourselves for a moment and listen to the trans mascs and trans men of color, intersex trans mascs and men, and multigender trans men and mascs you are belligerently harassing for speaking about THEIR INTERSECTIONS OF OPPRESSION.

Y'all talk about intersectionality, but where is it though???

Even when we don't mention trans fems at ALL we are crucified and accused of transmisogyny over the mere word "transandrophobia" existing. Even when we explicitly explain how and why this is needed and how it can be used in cooperation with transmisogyny. Even when we are actively working to advocate for ALL trans people, it's not enough unless we minimize ourselves.

This is dogma. This is political cult mentality, and it is directly sourced from radfem ideology. Trans communities are not immune. Trans people can be radfems, and you might want to ask yourself if you're surrounded by them.

Saying transandrophobia exists is not equal to saying transmisogyny isn't real, it's not saying we have it worse, nor is it saying trans women and fems "oppress" us. That's absurd. No trans people can oppress one another, but we All are susceptible to rhetoric and propaganda, and we ALL can be bigoted, including to Ourselves and One Another. Period. No trans person has "systemic male privilege". Not a single one. Yes this includes "passing" trans men, who are still denied healthcare and oppressed by any and all cisnorm authorities that know they're trans men.

If trans men and mascs can be transmisogynistic, then I hate to inform y'all that trans women and fems can be transandrophobic.

And for that matter, trans mascs can be transandrophobic and trans fems can be transmisogynistic. Nobody is immune. Ever.