#trad author

[tamiveldura]

Another version of this scam is "submit to this short story/poetry press for our next collection"

Followed by "congrats, you've been accepted, for just 45$ you can have your own hardback copy!"

No. Author copies, usually 1 or 2, are FREE.

Money flows to the author.

This is a friendly reminder to never, ever publish your book with a publishing company that charges you to publish with them. That is a vanity press, which makes money by preying on authors. They charge you for editing, formatting, cover art, and more. With most of these companies, you will never seen a cent of any royalties made from sale of your book. A legitimate publishing company only makes money when you make money, they will never charge you to publish with them. If a company approaches you and says "Hey, we'll publish your book, just pay us X amount of money," tell them to go fuck themself and block them.

[emeryleewho]

Saw a fun little conversation on Threads but I don't have a Threads account, so I couldn't reply directly, but I sure can talk about it here!

I've been wanting to get into this for awhile, so here we go! First and foremost, I wanna say that "Emmaskies" here is really hitting the nail on the head despite having "no insider info". I don't want this post to be read as me shitting on trad pub editors or authors because that is fundamentally not what's happening.

Second, I want to say that this reply from Aaron Aceves is also spot on:

There are a lot of reviewers who think "I didn't enjoy this" means "no one edited this because if someone edited it, they would have made it something I like". As I talk about nonstop on this account, that is not a legitimate critique. However, as Aaron also mentions, rushed books are a thing that also happens.

As an author with 2 trad pub novels and 2 trad pub anthologies (all with HarperCollins, the 2nd largest trad publisher in the country), let me tell you that if you think books seem less edited lately, you are not making that up! It's true! Obviously, there are still a sizeable number of books that are being edited well, but something I was talking about before is that you can't really know that from picking it up. Unlike where you can generally tell an indie book will be poorly edited if the cover art is unprofessional or there are typoes all over the cover copy, trad is broken up into different departments, so even if editorial was too overworked to get a decent edit letter churned out, that doesn't mean marketing will be weak.

One person said that some publishers put more money into marketing than editorial and that's why this is happening, but I fundamentally disagree because many of these books that are getting rushed out are not getting a whole lot by way of marketing either! And I will say that I think most authors are afraid to admit if their book was rushed out or poorly edited because they don't want to sabotage their books, but guess what? I'm fucking shameless. Café Con Lychee was a rush job! That book was poorly edited! And it shows! Where Meet Cute Diary got 3 drafts from me and my beta readers, another 2 drafts with me and my agent, and then another 2 drafts with me and my editor, Café Con Lychee got a *single* concrete edit round with my editor after I turned in what was essentially a first draft. I had *three weeks* to rewrite the book before we went to copy edits. And the thing is, this wasn't my fault. I knew the book needed more work, but I wasn't allowed more time with it. My editor was so overworked, she was emailing me my edit letter at 1am. The publisher didn't care if the book was good, and then they were upset that its sales weren't as high at MCD's, but bffr. A book that doesn't live up to its potential is not going to sell at the same rate as one that does!

And this may sound like a fluke, but it's not. I'm not naming names because this is a deeply personal thing to share, but I have heard from *many* authors who were not happy with their second books. Not because they didn't love the story but because they felt so rushed either with their initial drafts or their edits that they didn't feel like it lived up to their potential. I also know of authors who demanded extra time because they knew their books weren't there yet only to face big backlash from their publisher or agent.

I literally cannot stress to you enough that publisher's *do not give a fuck* about how good their products are. If they can trick you into buying a poorly edited book with an AI cover that they undercut the author for, that is *better* than wasting time and money paying authors and editors to put together a quality product. And that's before we get into the blatant abuse that happens at these publishers and why there have been mass exoduses from Big 5 publishers lately.

There's also a problem where publishers do not value their experienced staff. They're laying off so many skilled, dedicated, long-term committed editors like their work never meant anything. And as someone who did freelance sensitivity reading for the Big 5, I can tell you that the way they treat freelancers is *also* abysmal. I was almost always given half the time I asked for and paid at less than *half* of my general going rate. Authors publishing out of their own pockets could afford my rate, but apparently multi-billion dollar corporations couldn't. Copy edits and proofreads are often handled by freelancers, meaning these are people who aren't familiar with the author's voice and often give feedback that doesn't account for that, plus they're not people who are gonna be as invested in the book, even before the bad payment and ridiculous timelines.

So, anyway, 1. go easy on authors and editors when you can. Most of us have 0 say in being in this position and authors who are in breech of their contract by refusing to turn in a book on time can face major legal and financial ramifications. 2. Know that this isn't in your head. If you disagree with the choices a book makes, that's probably just a disagreement, but if you feel like it had so much potential but just *didn't reach it*, that's likely because the author didn't have time to revise it or the editor didn't have time to give the sort of thorough edits it needed. 3. READ INDIE!!! Find the indie authors putting in the work the Big 5's won't do and support them! Stop counting on exploitative mega-corporations to do work they have no intention of doing.

Finally, to all my readers who read Café Con Lychee and loved it, thank you. I love y'all, and I appreciate y'all, and I really wish I'd been given the chance to give y'all the book you deserved. I hope I can make it up to you in 2025.

[multi-fandom-lunatic]

something something booktok has a BIG problem with white feminism

[physalian]

I’m feeling in a conscientiously objectionable mood right now, as an author who was brought up on the fanfic community and who is now published on the indie market.

There is enough room for all of us, original and fanwork. I don’t care if I get called a snowflake or if my kindness is seen as some charity participation trophy by cynics who are too proud and pretentious.

Writing is art, and art should be fun. I don’t care if it’s a songfic, I don’t care if it’s an E-rated smutfest, I don’t care if it’s a 500k word slowburn epic, I don’t care if it’s baby’s first fanfic rife with typos but with heart and soul, or a veteran’s memoir.

There is enough room for all of us.

Be kind. Leave comments and kudos and likes. Tell somebody they’re doing a good job. Tell somebody you like their work. Be lenient, be gentle. None of us are pretending to stand up against the literary giants. None of us think we’re perfect.

There are enough critics in the world that will tear art down for the sake of being art and “useless” because it lacks function. There are enough critics in the world who will say “Well, it’s no Charles Dickens, thus it could be better”. There are enough critics who will stand on their chosen virtue against queer characters, disabled characters, female characters, minority characters, no matter how well they’re written or how little what they are matters to who they are. There are critics who won’t even read it, and will instead parrot hearsay that was never true.

There are enough assholes out there. We don’t need to do their jobs for them holding other writers to impossible standards.

One kind review won’t turn someone into an egomaniac. One kind review won’t skyrocket a single book to stardom and the NYT Bestseller list. One kind review won’t boost them to the top of the charts. One kind review isn’t cheating or lying or rigging the system that’s already rigged against us.

But it helps. It gives somebody confidence. It tells them that somebody notices their work. It gives them hope that more will follow. It proves all their doubters wrong. It’s a hand outstretched, when they’ve only ever had people kicking them down. It’s five seconds of your time that might make their whole month.

If you’re going to gatekeep praise for only the best of the best, if you’re going to stack them up against the best of the best when they never presumed to, if you’re going to focus on what it’s missing, instead of what it has, when it never promised otherwise… well, that sounds like quite a lonely endeavor.

What do you stand to lose?

[not-poignant]

Hi Pia

Feel free to ignore if this is unwelcome, but have you ever thought about publishing traditionally to sublimate your income and draw in new readers? I know you've self published two books already and that you didn't feel like they did very well, but maybe the experience would be different if someone else was in charge of marketing and all the other business stuff?

Obviously everyone's experience is different but as an author myself who's published both trad and self, traditional publishing has been a completely different experience and has allowed me to focus more on writing because I'm not the one responsible for advertising/marketing/financing anymore.

There are a ton of literary agents nowadays that want to represent diverse and lgbtqia+ fiction, some of them even in Australia.

Websites like Reedsy, AgentQuery and Jerichowriters have extensive directories to find literary agents.

(This is lengthy folks so I'm putting the other two parts (and my response) under a read more! Also putting it under a read more so the anon can skip my response since it's very 'here's all the reasons I can't do this' and they just might not want to read that, lmao)

(continued -> )

Trad publishing houses have better resources for marketing and helping authors get more attention than any self publishing website could.

Obviously most authors, unless they're really prolific, don't get a huge advance (the average is between $1000 - $5000) but getting your foot in the door or on the traditional publishing "ladder' so to speak can have a huge benefit for your serials. Because it gives you more exposure. Plus it's in the agent's best interest to find a publishing house that accepts stories that contain darker themes and negotiate the best deal for you.

For some reason places like Amazon and the like accept and keep up more "dark" books that are traditionally published than they do with self pub ones. Maybe because they have more respect or leniency for publishing houses? I have no idea. But you could use this to your advantage. I think I remember you mentioning that writing novels felt quite isolating to you? But you already have 2 completed novels (3 if you count the fae one) that you could potentially revisit or rewrite to your liking and get them represented by agents.

You already have a loyal readership and that's very attractive to trad pub houses and agents.

As well as trad publishing, you could also make s simple website that doesn't require much maintenance. It could be just a landing page that says something about you and then has links to your tumblr and patreon where you're more active. That way you increase the chances of getting your serials found by additional readers and also come across looking more "professional". Not that you're not professional now. You are and I admire you greatly, but the unfortunate reality is a lot of people still judge by appearances and some will be more drawn to an author's website than a tumblr page, at least at first. So I think having a simple landing page would open up another door for you to benefit from.

Trad publishing is work but definitely not as much as self publishing, and you can continue on with your serials. Getting an agent can be time consuming but I personally believe the pros outweigh the cons and I also believe that your stories would be a huge treasure to the growing lgbtqia+ market. Seriously there needs to be more!

These are just suggestions and thoughts and like I said before, feel free to ignore. But I know you've mentioned wanting to grow your career in the past and I genuinely believe you can do so with some of these pathways.

~

Okay, my response. Posting this because firstly I think the suggestions could work very well for other authors reading this! And I hope they take the advice to note, and secondly because I haven't talked about this for a hot minute so let's talk about it again.

So the TL;DR is yes I have considered traditional publishing. I have actually been traditionally published in short stories, poetry, and also had my art published on covers and re: interior illustrations. But my Fae Tales works got soundly rejected when I sent them to publishing houses that were doing open calls for that sort of material. I've never heard back from an agent and I never expect to, heh.

~

Now for a bit more detail

I have been traditionally published before (it's how I got my writing out there long before I ever wrote serials), and yes, I have approached publishers with my writing since then. In fact Tradewinds was written for the traditional publishing market, and it got soundly rejected, and then shelved. The reasons it was rejected ran the gamut from 'I don't like that these fae eat humans no one is going to relate to these people' (while the editor then went on to publish vampire books idk) to 'There's too much worldbuilding you can't expect readers to keep up with this' to 'Your stories are too long, no one wants to read characters talking all the time.'

Meanwhile in my online serials I was getting feedback like 'my favourite chapters are the ones where the characters just sit in a room and talk' lol.

The traditional publishing world is also not quite as utopian for most authors as you make it seem. I'm friends with a lot of authors who are traditionally published because that's the world I came from, and unless they're solely in KU and doing generic rapid release formula romances, none of them are making that much money. Certainly not enough to live off. It may have been that you were very fortunate, anon, but I know hundreds more traditionally published authors that left trad pub to make money, and I know about 5 in trad pub personally who are making enough to live off of.

Only one of those is really writing what she truly loves to write, and even then, publishing houses have refused to commit to her entire fantasy series (and she's regularly in 'Top 10/20 Women Fantasy Authors in the World' lists) and forced her to finish the series prematurely. Something I never ever have to worry about in self pub.

The reality is that in trad pub these days, you're still in charge of most of your marketing unless you're one of the big earners for the publishing house. In fact I'd be expected to keep even more of a social media and marketing presence than I do now. I don't do almost any of the things you're supposed to do as an author in marketing to be appealing. I don't have a Facebook author account. I don't have an Instagram author account. I don't maintain or regularly send out newsletters (which automatically puts me in the like 0.05% of authors who make money doing this lmao).

I don't know if you ever have looked that closely into what m/m publishing houses expect from most of their authors, but the newsletter swaps, cover releases, review circuits, interview circuits and more are fucking grueling. We're expected to be responsible for our advertising and our marketing to a fairly massive degree. Some traditionally published in m/m still have to pay for their release blitzes out of pocket. These publishing houses, by and large, do not offer advances. You say most authors don't get large advances. I don't think most authors in this arena get offered advances at all unless they're somehow miraculously acquired by a Big 4.

We're expected to have an already established social media presence because of that (that's why it's so appealing to publishers that we have social media presences already, anon, so we can market, they can save money, and we still see only a minimal cut from the royalties).

And you still have to focus on your finances, because publishing houses like Dreamspinner straight up didn't pay a whole bunch of authors for so long they destroyed careers. They still haven't paid some of their authors. And they're still running a business and people still buy their books.

Trad publishing houses have better resources for marketing and helping authors get more attention than any self publishing website could.

This is true if a) they're a big publishing house and not an indie publisher of which most LGBTQIA+ publishing houses are and b) they're willing to use them on you.

The authors that make the most money get the most resources. If they believe you're going to earn back your advance and move thousands or tens of thousands of units per book, then yes, you will get those resources.

I have been told so many times now - even from friends who run publishing houses, including one who works at HarperCollins - that my work will never be mainstream enough to have broad appeal. They literally told me not to keep trying re: trad pub, because that was my dream for a long time. These folks have given me rock solid advice in the past, it's one of the reasons I'm doing so well now via Patreon + Ream. But they were like (paraphrasing) 'you don't write 60-80k romances and you don't want to and that's not your strength anyway, you're multi-genre which makes you hard to market, you write psychological and literary trauma recovery which is hard to market, you write character studies which are hard to market, publishing houses often don't commit to series anymore if the first two don't move units and if they pulled the plug you'd be contractually obliged to never finish that series until your contract was up.' I could go on, but it was like yeah...actually. Fair.

For some reason places like Amazon and the like accept and keep up more "dark" books that are traditionally published than they do with self pub ones. Maybe because they have more respect or leniency for publishing houses?

They do, but most publishing houses want very formulaic dark romance which is not what I write.

I have a 300k omegaverse slowburn that still hasn't had any penetrative sex in it, anon. Publishing houses don't want that. They don't expect anyone will wait 4 full length novels to get to literally a single penetrative sex scene.

But you already have 2 completed novels (3 if you count the fae one) that you could potentially revisit or rewrite to your liking and get them represented by agents.

If I rewrote them to my liking, trad pub wouldn't want them. They'd be too long! I think agents etc. take one look at me and go 'oh god, no thank you!' I'm not an easy sell, by any means.

Plus I'm very e.e about all of that with the knowledge that they then give me only about 10-15% of the royalties on the sales, vs. self-pub where I get around 70%, or subscription where I around 80% of it. When someone subscribes to me, they don't have to worry about 85-90% of their subscription fee going to a publishing house. I don't have to think about how many thousands and thousands of books I'd have to sell to make the same amount that I do now via subscription.

As well as trad publishing, you could also make s simple website that doesn't require much maintenance.

If it was that simple, I'd be doing it. I don't mean this in a facetious way, I mean it in a: I've made a lot of websites, in fact I run one at the moment not connected to my writing (I've been running it for so long it's now in its 20s and can probably has a driver's license). I find it so tedious that I barely remember to check in on it. But forgetting about it means there's always maintenance to keep up with when I get back to it.

Running websites is simpler than it used to be, but it's still not simple. There's hosting and hosting costs, there's server changes, there's back-end maintenance etc. I'm considering it for down the track, but there's a reason I decided to go the route of Patreon over my own site. There are authors (like Christopher Hopper) who actually do subscription through their own domain, but it's a lot of work.

Even placeholder sites are still work. They need updating, details change, story titles changing etc. Maintaining my Patreon + Ream About pages is enough, they're always both a little out of date, lol.

Not that you're not professional now.

Oh no, I mean from a 'traditional publisher looking at me to see what kind of candidate I am' I'm really not though. Like I said, I don't have the newsletter (100 subscribers who get one newsletter a year is not really a newsletter), I don't have the Facebook/Tiktok/Insta/Twitter/Bluesky/Threads accounts, etc. I write multi-genre across multiple steam levels, and I'm allergic to writing serials shorter than 150k. One of my best performing original serials was an 800k contemporary story with no sex in it but a lot of BDSM. It can't be marketed as clean or sweet, it's not high steam, an entire chapter is 'boy saves snail from rain.' Also he was cruel to animals, so not exactly what I'd call a sympathetic main.

And yet that story did so well for me via Patreon + Ream, because people want the kinds of stories that publishing houses generally don't want and I happen to be writing them.

Trad publishing is work but definitely not as much as self publishing, and you can continue on with your serials. Getting an agent can be time consuming but I personally believe the pros outweigh the cons and I also believe that your stories would be a huge treasure to the growing lgbtqia+ market. Seriously there needs to be more!

Anon I just literally do not believe an agent would want to represent me. I have 0% belief in that. Not from a self-deprecating angle but from a 'I am not a good bet for the trad market' perspective. From a 'I have so many friends who are trad pubbed authors who stare at me like I'm insane for writing serials as long as I do' perspective. From a 'professionals in the industry have told me it's amazing I'm doing so well in serials because there's no way they'd take a risk on what I'm doing' perspective. From a 'just because it's queer and diverse doesn't mean it hits literally any other thing a trad pub is looking for' perspective. I've been doing this for 10 years. There are agents who represent work similar to mine who know what I'm doing and wouldn't touch me with a ten foot pole. They're not missing out on a trick, they know I'm not broad appeal, and they're right.

Also the only way I'd have the energy to manage trad pub is by quitting serials. And honestly, I never found trad pub all that much fun while I was doing it for non-novel stuff. It was fine, and it is nice to have my stuff out there, but it was a ton of admin and a lot of going back and forth between people who really only care about marketing a product, and that's great and what they excel at! But I'm too disabled to turn this job into something crushing just to potentially make more money, I'd rather just quit and go back onto a full Disability Pension. I can't see any way I still get to write the stories I want to write, in the way that I write them, and be remotely appealing to a single reputable trad pub or agent.

Also *gestures to everything in this article*

[wojakgallery]

Title/Name: Ellen Lee DeGeneres, better known as 'Ellen DeGeneres', born in (1958). Bio: American comedian, television host, actress, and writer. She starred in the sitcom Ellen from 1994 to 1998, which earned her a Primetime Emmy Award for "The Puppy Episode". Country: USA Wojak Series: Tradwife (Variant) Image by: Wojak Gallery Admin Main Tag: Ellen DeGeneres Wojak

[v4mp1re-777]

[marciliedonato]

Someone tell me why (other than blatant transphobia and establishments protecting those who fit their norms vs those who don't lol) the girl from Italy who was a poor sport and sore loser is getting a monetary prize gold winners receive as compensation (for something? Biggest cry baby award ig?) despite not doing jack fuckin shit but cry and then whine bc she got punched... In a sport that revolves around punching meanwhile the girl from Algeria is not only being subject to unwanted and pointless public speculation about her gender identity (why are u so obsessed with her hormones?? There's an explanation for all of that, pls touch grass post haste 🙏) and scrutiny bc being a strong woman apparently means ur a man (as if that was the end of the world if she WAS trans??? Like?) and targeted/villanized by media, conservatives and failed personalities turned grifters (+ thousands of lowlife losers on the internet) but also being actively punished including being barred from competing in a world competition (I don't recall what it is specifically) DESPITE BEING THE OBVIOUS VICTIM IN THIS SITUATION FOR NO APPARENT REASON?? She just keeps on losing? like the bar for faith in humanity is truly in hell at this point

[duckprintspress]

I feel like I need to start talking more about how one of the big things that Duck Prints Press does is open the door to people who could never even get a foot in with traditional publishing or even most medium/"small" presses (we're a small press, but we're really more of a micro-press, I see places calling themselves small presses that are fucktons bigger than we are).

I've got some anecdotal evidence that people avoid the publications of Presses like this one because they think our writing and editing standards are lower - that we're the people who failed to make it in bigger presses because we weren't good enough - and that, consciously and unconsciously, gatekeeping biases on who is and isn't qualified to write lead people to support small presses less than they might support a more established organization.

So...y'all realize that there are a lot of reasons people wouldn't pursue working with trad pub, right? and I don't even mean ethical doubts, and I don't even mean "trad pub doesn't want to publish certain kinds of stories," though those are definitely factors - we're able to give more space to play with themes and genres because we don't focus solely on "is this marketable" as a sales rubric.

But that's not what I consider the biggest difference.

Hi, I'm Claire, and I own Duck Prints Press, and I have a massive history of clinical depression, including being suicidal in the past. I'm a great writer, and I'm not just tooting my own horn, I've got almost 150,000 kudos on AO3 that suggest that just maybe, I know wtf I'm doing stringing words into sentences. I don't need a big press to tell me I'm competent, I already know that. What I do need is to not end up suicidal again. If I face the gauntlet of rejections that's supposedly "required" as part of gatekeeping trad pub, it will do severe damage to my mental health, and probably destroy my ability to write as depression-induced self-deception eats through what I know to be true.

THAT'S what's different about a micropress like ours. Yes, our founding vision was to work with fans, but the vast majority of the people who work with us have mental illnesses, physical disabilities, neurodivergence issues, and/or other "meatsuits are terrible actually" issues that strict publishing environments can't or, really, won't accommodate. We say "fuck that noise" and go out of our way to accommodate people, granting extensions and ensuring everyone can work on their own schedule. We're able to be very flexible, which means we bring in a lot of people whose incredible skills are overlooked, ignored, looked down on, kept out of, more mainstream publishing options.

If someone has trouble with deadlines? We still work with them.

If someone has an illness that flares irregularly and unpredictably? We still work with them.

If someone needs frequent reminders? We still work with them.

If someone works slowly because they can only do a little at a time? We still work with them.

If someone needs extra time, additional support, special software...we have thus far been able to accommodate literally everyone who has come to us.

As long as the creators who work with us keep communicating and keep showing at least a little progress, we will find a way to make things work, because we want to be as inclusive as possible, and because we know that most people with these challenges, no matter how good they are at writing or art or whatever it is they do with us, would face many more hardships to have these opportunities with a larger, more strict organization.

Just, every time I see indications that people think we're "less" because we're not HarperCollins or Penguin or Tor or something, I get so angry, because it shows so little understanding of how gatekeepy and especially how ableist trad pub is, and I wish more of the people who are thinking things like that would recognize that their behavior is, essentially, snobbery.

And to be clear I'm not saying "people with these challenges never get trad pubbed," that's clearly ridiculous and untrue, but I am saying, people with these challenges shouldn't have to be The Most Exceptional just to have a chance, and we deserve to have a place that will accommodate us instead of having to perform health, perform neurotypicalness, etc. just to succeed. We deserve to not have one flare-up potentially ruin our careers, and we deserve the same opportunities and respect as people who choose other directions.

Between trad pub, small press, and self-publishing, no one route is inherently "superior." Backing one over another doesn't guarantee you're only going to get good stories, or good editing. Trad pub publishes utter schlock sometimes, and self-publishing is fantastic sometimes, and some small presses do have lax standards, and some small presses are exceptional, and I feel like maybe people just really don't understand why places like Duck Prints Press try to exist - it's because we're trying to create spaces that meet us where we are, instead of focusing on rigid conformity, marketability, hard rules, etc.

The only way we'll get a diversity of voices in publishing is by supporting a diversity of publishers. The only way we'll be able to make space for everyone is by supporting the places that carve out new spaces to fit those who didn't fit elsewhere.

I wish more people would understand what we do and why we're here, and that folks would at least try our publications before assuming that we're "like big press but worse at writing/arting/editing."

Idk. I'm just tired, and sick, and still working even tho I'm sick, and frustrated with how hard it is to get anywhere, so here, have a rant I probably shouldn't post.

(this post brought to you by me seeing Chuck Tingle - entirely reasonably, to be clear, Chuck Tingle is awesome and I support him entirely! - celebrating the Camp Damascus release to thousands of notes, and Tor posting a poll about some Locked Tomb short story and getting 1300+ votes, and how I have to claw our way out of the background tumblr noise to get 100+ notes even on our biggest releases)

[boltedfruit]

How I Outline/Plot: Including Author Resources for Developing Characters and Self Publishing

First and foremost, everything I’ve included in this doc that references resources (such as the plot outline below), is also available for free on the authors’ respective websites. I just wanted to recreate the template Scrivener file I use when starting a new project as I’ve collected everything in one master file.

MASTER TEMPLATE GOOGLE DOC: https://tinyurl.com/boltemp

I recently posted the chapter count for my upcoming Mafia MM romance I'm writing for NaNoWriMo this year and was asked how I plot by @duckyreads

Below, I've included screenshots of the first couple beats of my process and how much detail I usually include when outlining. The template I'm working from is an edited one of Romancing the Beat by Gwen Hayes, who offers her beat sheet for free on her site and in a Scrivener Template.

Using Romancing the Beat, I first went through and made a separate page for each story beat for my protagonist, Zac. I can't do just normal three act structure as it's too vague for me. I need Too Much to work with, then I can whittle it down later. I then did the same for the love interest and Mafia boss, Joe. (name might be changed idk yet.)

The colored dots represent which act of the story I'm in. Light pink= Act 1: Set Up, Dark Pink= Act 2: Falling, Blue= Act 3: Retreating, and Purple= Act 4: Shake it Off.

I also want to note that even though the epilogue is written in for both characters' POV, I'm only writing it once, from Zac's POV. So not every single beat necessarily translates directly into its own chapter. A few from Joe's POV are definitely combined more than once.

So Chapter 1, Scene 1: Zac's sister Riley has made him a dating profile and set him up on a date with who will soon be revealed as a crime lord.

I'm repetitive, because I've gone back in at different points and added little notes here and there. But my basic points I want to convey right off the bat: Zac is a hot mess who drinks to excess at times, has a sister who loves him but he is always putting her in a hard position, and has issues with money and violence from his childhood.

I also like to include some dialogue or rough snippets for scenes because it helps make the scene feel more concrete to me. I don't always do this though.

This is Chapter 1, Scene 2. Very short and to the point. (This was something I originally started writing as a fic btw.)

This is Chapter 2, Scene 1 and is the first from Joe's perspective.

It's plotty compared to the first chapter. I haven't done any nitty gritty location research yet so I put stuff I don't know yet in asterisks or brackets or in something like "XXX", because XXX is easy to find and change with ctrl+f > replace.

This is from Chapter 3, Scene 1. Just vibes.

This is from Chapter 4, Scene 2, from Joe's POV after the date.

This is what I ended up with. I'm sure as I work through it, the chapter count will go down. I don't really want my romance book to be so long, but I saw recently that 50 Shades is apparently over 500 pgs, which is wild to me. I'm also doing alternating POV, so it'll be switching between my protag and the love interest.

My outlining/plotting steps:

Decide on genre and type of story structure I want to use.

Decide on my protagonist and lay out a new page/note for every story beat of whatever structure I'm using.

Go in order or jump around and write a little per beat based on how I want a scene to go. For me, feeling is more important than knowing exactly what's going to happen. I'm not naturally a plotter, so I still like to not be constrained when I'm actually writing. (ie I'm not adhering to some rigid word count per chapter.) And if I changed something or added a thing while writing, I go back to the outline after and add it in so it all lines up and I don't forget something I did.

If a beat doesn't fit its own chapter, I make it a scene. It's also okay for multiple beats to happen in one chapter too.

Do the same for any other POVs involved in the story. Try to make each character have their own arc as well, no matter how small.

Really my main advice is go with your gut first because you can always add on or retract later. Write what you want (with some awareness of genre tropes/audience wants if you're trying to write to market to some extent). All book publishing is fickle and mean a lot of the time. And honestly unless you're one of the few who gets picked up by traditional publishers and offered an amazing deal, you'll be expected to pay for all the things you'd be paying for with self publishing, except with fewer rights to your own work. I'd rather pay and manage my own website, ads, and ARC readers and retain total rights to my own creations than give my rights to a publisher who might hold my book up for years, and still expect me to fund my own advertising, book tours etc.

And besides, if you self publish, there is no rule you can't have another book (and then even your backlog) traditionally published later on. You can have both.

[arcane-vagabond]

It’s not creativity if you wait for other people to take the leap of faith of trying new things and then taking advantage of the results that show people actually like diverging from the same old stuff.

[emeryleewho]

Maybe it's just me, but as a writer, I try really hard not to moralize to my audience. I have strong opinions on what characters are doing bad things and who I hate and who is redeemable or irredeemable to me personally, but I'm not gonna tell you that in the prose. I wrote them that way so you can weigh all the info and draw a conclusion informed by your worldview. If I'm just gonna tell you what to think, you don't even need to read the book. I can just shout at you on Tumblr like a normal person.

[abalonetea]

I think there’s something funny about picking up and reading a very much acclaimed professionally published, cited by Stephen King as being the best of the best book, and then seeing two people talk in the same paragraph, and inconsistencies in whether the character is referenced by the first or latest name in a single POV. Like, I don’t know. There’s something about it that just gets a person thinking.

[southsidestory]

Currently imagining a future in which I filed the serial numbers off The Valley of the End or In Times of Peace and got a book deal.

The world of publishing is so damn grim now. The industry seems to have forgotten that part of its job is marketing debut authors!

Sometimes it feels like, if you don't bring an established audience to them, they don't want you. Simple as that.

[mermaidsirennikita]

You mentioned how authors are forced to write differently with trad publishing vs indie , which ones do u mean? I'm curious...

"Forced" probably isn't the right word, but "heavily encouraged" [by the companies signing the checks] is closer.

Here's the thing with traditional publishing right now. You walk into a bookstore or Target or whatever--you may very well find some very high heat books. I've seen Sierra Simone in Target. However, all those titles were originally published independently, and Sierra works with a publisher who essentially strikes a deal where they handle print and get the books into those stores, whereas (from what I can tell) she maintains the digital rights.

Traditional publishing offers some releases that are quite high heat, but like... Tessa Bailey's trad books, for example, aren't touching the upper echelons of indie in terms of heat. Because trad is meant to appeal to as broad an audience as possible, and tbh, trad has been swinging safer in a lot of ways.

Ali Hazelwood's books are praised for being high heat--The Love Hypothesis only has one full sex scene, though it's long. If you've read Ali's fanfiction (... which I have) she writes way dirtier than that. She mentioned on a podcast that when they were shopping TLH, she was encouraged by her agent to trim the sex down to make her MS more appealing to publishers. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

With historical romance, I think there's a little more tension, because trad is very confused about who they're marketing historicals to. Like, some of them still seem to be pointed towards conservative white ladies imo--women who want a very sort of... straight, missionary, wait until the wedding night type of historical. Whereas I think they should be making more of an appeal to a younger gen. Some of them seem to be basically giving up on that, though. But I digress.

ANYWAY.

Authors I can think of right now--Minerva Spencer writes indie historical romance under the pen name S.M. LaViolette. Some of the LaViolette books are straight up erotic historical romance so obviously they're higher heart than her trad books. But even those that aren't are much higher heat than her traditional books. Like Hyacinth for example--not an erotic historical imo, but it has waaaay more sex scenes, and more creativity (hero coming untouched during a whipping scene, butt stuff which you HARDLY EVER see in trad historicals).

Joanna Shupe has published trad and indie HR. I consider her books on the higher heat end of trad historicals. However, if you read her indie novellas, they are higher heat, they're kinkier--all that. Lol never mind her mafia romances which are a very different game. In indie, Joanna did a BIG age gap romance, a virgin auction romance, a scene where the hero licked up his come and the heroine's ~virgin's blood~ after he deflowers her... you're not gonna see that in trad lol.

Eva Leigh also writes on the higher end of the heat scale in trad, but her indie historicals are different--and it isn't just the explicitness or quantity. As with Joanna, it's the kink, too. The creativity. She wrote MFM, age play, etc. You can just go a lot further.

And I mean? I would also say that you can see a big difference in authors that aren't hybrid. Grace Callaway has tons of sex scenes in her historicals, and they're long and creative and she DOES in fact include butt stuff in the books! Nicola Davidson does really fun poly historicals. When Sierra Simone wrote historicals, there was obviously group sex, kinky stuff, etc.

You just see a really big chasm, bigger than I'd say you see with other subgenres, between trad HR and indie HR. And I can only assume that it's because of an industry pressure. With indie, you can do whatever you want. With trad, there's a standard to conform to because before you sell to readers, you're selling to a publisher.

[guardsbian]

man I was kind of getting back into being on a writing forum but I might have to dip. the regulars are kind of fucking miserable. sucks