#tony just watched his parents die and was no more rational than Loki in the back half of Thor 2011

[sofiadragon]

As someone who goes hard for death of the Author I need to add one huge fact that puts an enormous thumb on the scale:

In the movie, there are no civil rights violations mentioned. That's just in the wiki. They only talk about Avengers missions and the fact that with SHIELD gone the Avengers are a fully independent vigilante group that doesn't answer to anyone [and especially not any part of the US Government according to CAWS.]

This is key for me. If all the stuff in the wiki was what was on the papers given to Steve Rogers then I would be team Cap. The ankle monitors, being treated like walking WMDs instead of people... it is clearly over the line. The problem is that in the movie the only issue anyone really talks about is this:

Is it OK for the Avengers to cross international borders with no approval from local authorities and perform vigilante justice with no oversight?

Well, no. If your initial reaction isn't no, then take the Avengers out of it and substitute any random gang that protects their territory and see if you feel the same way. Lots of gangs the world over protect their own - if you live there, if you follow their rules, then no other force is going to come in and do anything to you from the police on down to rival gangs or freelance crooks. If somebody vandalized a local church /temple /community center then the gang might go out of their way to beat the crap out of them and nobody in the entire neighborhood would have seen it happen in broad daylight in clear view of 7 apartment buildings.

Spiderman, Daredevil, and similar small-time heroes are absolutely analogous to the best parts of these gangs - idealized versions because they don't fund their exploits by collecting insurance money or selling drugs or do anything else unsavory other than beat up people - who are highly likely guilty of some crime that we don't punish with physical violence anymore and may well be let off on the technicality of having been a victim of vigilante justice.

That's vigilante justice in the real world. The MCU phases 1-3 were much, much more grounded than the comics - less zany and more realistic. So we don't have a world like the comics with enhanced criminals popping up right, left, and center. They are very rare, if only because the inhumans and anyone like them have been in hiding or nearly killed off due to shield/hydra hunting them for so long. Phase 4 seems to be leaving that behind, for good or I'll, but CACW was very much grounded in real world situations.

If you only watched the movie, the main reason why the Accords are bad is that the counter- terrorist swat team went in guns blazing against James Buchanan Barnes and opened with a lethal grenade instead of a flashbang. "The Accords were going to kill an innocent man!" Well, that's just the state of law enforcement. Going up against a known serial killer or a seasoned assasin? Lethal force will be authorized. Should it be the first option? No, I'd prefer not, but I'm pretty anti-gun for a military spouce raised between a sheepfold and an orchard. Well trained officers of the law should start at a reasonable level based on the threat they expect and escalate when necessary. I'd say they should probably have used a flash bang, but this squad chose to go in with lethal force because the Winter Soldier merited that threat level by their assessment. Nobody knew Zemo existed at that stage and law enforcement isn't omniscient. Even the superheroes make big mistakes in the MCU.

Also, are baseline human anti-terrorist squads affected by the freshly ratified Accords? Most UN resolutions have a period of time between being made and taking effect. Since this didn't happen in the USA, that squad wasn't working for Ross or the CIA like Carter. Even the wiki seemed vague on that, but the movie doesn't say anything at all about the lethal force being out of line for taking down the Winter freaking Soldier.

It does imply that Rogers and Romanoff said beep about Bucky to anyone since the events of CATWS, which means these people are 100% expecting to go up against a fully operational Hydra assasin with no mercy or humanity.

One final point, because I saw a post today and it made me want to scream: If people are going to give Cap a pass on the extremely risky and selfish move he makes at the end of Endgame because "that's the writers fault, not Caps fault, you can't say he values his personal relationships over the lives of huge numbers of innocent people" then I have to apply the same pass to Tony. He's all about transparency and accountability and wouldn't be down for any of the stuff in the wiki based on his characterization in IM 1 and 2. He certainly wouldn't let his Iron Man tech be used by the government, so he wouldn't accept the Accords if he would be forced to fight against his will by them.

Let’s talk Civil War.

(Ik. It’s been years. I’m sorry. I’m stuck in the past.)

Other than the fact that Tony’s side of the Accords is the non-contested accepted correct side in the entire fucking world except the USA (seriously, the entire world is telling you you’re wrong and you still insist otherwise? Maybe y’all’s really do belong on Team Cap), let’s dissect every Team Cap fan’s POV and rebut them.

1. The government should not impose on powered people’s freedoms.

Aside from the fact that this shows a fairly concerning blatant ignorance of the United Nations and all forms of international government, I can name on one hand the number of countries where “freedom” is portrayed as it is in the USA. Do you know what the stance on freedom is in the rest of the world? Your personal freedom ends at the safety of the community. (This is especially interesting during COVID and the vaccine and masking) Your life is your own, do whatever shit you want to do. No one gives a fuck if you want to eat ham or turkey for dinner. But when your “personal freedom” starts putting other’s lives at risk, it’s a fucking problem. It’s not “personal freedom” when you’re marching into a school wearing bombs. It’s not “personal freedom” when you start carrying a machine gun and threatening anyone you think is wrong. That is effectively what most of the Avengers are. They’re walking around with weapons and threatening anyone that doesn’t agree with them. And if you can’t see why that’s problematic, I don’t trust you.

2. The Government should not monitor individuals.

All governments monitor individuals and if you think otherwise, then I’m sorry but what fantasy world are you living in? Governments monitoring individuals is, usually, what leads to them catching terrorists before they blow up your local gas station or school. Governments monitoring individuals is an everyday occurrence in the entire fucking world and for due reason when people start threatening to murder world leaders or hate crime minorities. The Avengers getting monitored by the government is no different than any other civilian but for the crucial factor that the Avengers can and have acted on their threats based on personal disagreements.

3. The Government is corrupt.

This again just shows a blatant ignorance of international law and the United Nations, and, frankly, entitlement. The Accords were never going to give the United States government complete control over the Avengers when the initial problem was that US citizens were parading around with their weapons without any regard to international concerns. Further, even if any government is corrupt the way Hydra infiltrated the US government, the United Nations consists of 193 countries, 117 of them voted for the Accords, all of them would still have a say in what the Avengers do. Tell me, and use your logic please, how it could possibly be easier to corrupt 193 countries, the entire fucking world, than it is to corrupt 6 weaponized individuals all US citizens?

4. General Ross is known as the bad guy and therefore the Accords are bad because he supports them.

Correlation not causation. The Accords were written by at least 117 countries and amended by all 193 of them. Under international law, every country is allowed their representatives of their choosing, but all representatives must be present for something to actually pass. Meaning, yes, the US representative was a corrupt piece of shit, but there’s at least 192 other representatives (some countries choose to have multiple), thus, again, we go back to the argument of, is it easier to corrupt one individual or a whole board?

5. The Avengers would never have been deployed because countries have opposing decisions.

The Avengers were never supposed to be deployed for Earth-level threats anyhow. “So when the world needed them, they could fight the battles we never could” ~ Nick Fury. Key words: when needed, never could. In other words, the Avengers were not supposed to be constantly on missions, only when there was a need for a team of heroes. Further, they were not meant to fight the everyday bad guy, not terrorists or thieves or murderers, the Avengers were made to fight Extinction-level threats. It takes years of training to learn how to correctly, legally, and safely catch the everyday bad guy. None of the Avengers have gone through that training, and them being involved in such missions has canonically resulted in mass casualties. And when it comes to extinction-level threats, darling, not a single human is going to go, “well, I want the planet I’m living in to explode”, therefore, the Avengers will be deployed for those, aka: their correct purpose.

6. Some countries can’t fight their bad guys.

If you cannot see how this is blatant American Imperialism propaganda, I don’t know what to tell you. It’s true, some countries struggle with crime rates, but it is still their right as a country to decide when and how to ask for help rather than have it be imposed on them. Are you also walking around saying “we had to send our military to Afghanistan and blow up their lands, they couldn’t deal with their bad people” or “we had to take over Iraq, Syria, etc”? It’s not the place of the US government to choose how other countries deal with crimes, and it is most certainly not the place of 6 weaponized (white) US citizens to do so either.

7. Some countries are corrupt and choose not to fight their bad guys.

This effectively makes the Avengers political weapons (one of the valid concerns of the Accords), and proves exactly why the Accords are needed. Are the Avengers supposed to assassinate any world leader they deem corrupt? Because that is what it would be, assassinations. How is that not abuse of their powers? How can it be justified in any shape, way, or form? What would make them different than dictators then? “If you don’t agree with me, I’ll assassinate you and replace you with someone who does”.

8. The Superhuman Registration Act is a bad thing in the comics and the Accords are in its place.

True, the Registration Act was a terrible thing, but it comes under very different circumstances in the comics than it does in the MCU, and to ignore the political climate and story of the MCU is downright idiotic. The MCU is an entirely different story and universe than Earth-616. Why are you watching the MCU if you just want the story of the comics? Go read the comics then. This screams either one of two:

A. A lack of cognitive abilities.

B. A child throwing a fit because they didn’t get exactly what they want.

And honestly, neither is a cute look.

Did you also throw a tantrum when they replaced an orientalist racist depiction of a Chinese villain by a white man in Iron Man 3?

9. Captain America is an amazing hero in the comics.

Again, in the comics. Not the MCU. In the comics, Peter Parker’s best friend is Harry Osborn, not Ned Leeds. In the comics, Pepper Potts marries Happy Hogan, not Tony Stark. In the comics, Wanda and Pietro Maximoff are Romani-Jewish, not white. In the comics, Alexei Shostakov is Natasha Romanoff’s husband, not father. Catch my drift? The comics are different, and MCU Steve Rogers is not 616 Steve Rogers. To pretend otherwise is boring.

10. Team Cap is hot.

Honestly, the blond blue eyed look isn’t my cup of tea, but I get it. What I don’t understand is why you have to justify all their actions to love them? I adore Tywin Lannister. I’m not walking around justifying him wiping out entire families and ordering the sexual assault and murder of Elia Martell and her children. You can like someone and admit they’ve done some fucked up shit. It’s not that deep. It’s deep when you try to say they’re in the right for the fucked up shit they did.

11. Bucky.

Honestly, Bucky is his own whole complex post and if I get into it here, this post will last for days, so I won’t. I will admit that Tony was in the wrong for some parts of that, but even yet, Rogers was entirely in the wrong for everything he did “for” Bucky, and this whole dilemma could have been prevented if Rogers had for one singular second thought to go about everything the legal way. (I could make another post if I’m encouraged enough)

12. The Avengers are the good guys.

That’s the Doylist explanation. We as outside viewers know that. The Watsonian explanation is entirely different. World governments in the MCU don’t know for sure the Avengers are the good guys. What they know is that the Avengers have been involved in the complete destruction of government buildings, intelligence buildings, an entire country, and more. Do you know what we call people who blow up governmental and intelligence buildings full of innocent civilians here? Terrorists.

13. The Accords.

This isn’t an argument I’ve seen per se, but more of a general misunderstanding I’ve seen on both sides. It doesn’t surprise me though. Civil War shows one single thin file as being the entire Accords, that Rogers flips through quickly and decides is a mistake. There is absolutely no way that is correct for the United Nations. UN documents can be thousands of pages long, they’re written by legal professionals from at least tens of countries, they cover every possible scenario and they’re open to amendments. They’re worked on so long that it takes years for them to be passed. They’re filled with so much legal jargon that one singular flick will result in you understanding nothing. More likely though, Rogers was given a brief introduction and summary. Thus, him immediately deciding he doesn’t like it without even knowing what it is, gives the same energy as a child throwing a tantrum for being forced to try kiwis for the first time.

It is possible that I’ve forgotten some arguments, I’m only human after all, but if you, (respectfully. I will not be answering anyone who throws slurs or hate speech), have any, I don’t mind dissecting them.

Lastly, to wrap up my post, all I have to say is one question. Is it possible that the whole world, that at least 5-6 billion people, are wrong, and Steve Rogers is correct?

[xxruinaxxmcu]

EmpathxLoki part 3?? (Maybe a jailbreak scene??)

part 1

part 2

Y/N knewthat there was no way for Loki to escape from the dungeons without the help ofsomeone in the royal family. But it was too early to let him escape, too. Thelast thing anyone would want is to provoke the Avengers, and Y/N was prettycertain that neither Steve Rogers nor Tony Stark would appreciate the prospectof the guy who tried to take over the world and lay waste to New York being onthe loose again.

After achat with the Allfather’s wife and queen of Asgard, Y/N was given an artefactthat allowed them to bring the spirit of a person out of their body, to showthem the world without physically being there. Like that, Loki would remainimprisoned and the danger would be contained.

“Whatwill you show him, Y/N?” Frigga asked the empath in front of her.

Y/N smiled:“Humanity. I will show him humanity.”

Walkingdown the stairs to the dungeons, everything started to feel familiar. Theinmates, the cells. The stone walls.

But onething was different. The usual guards had a special guest, someone to containall possible danger. A bit behind Y/N, a woman walked. Lady Sif. It had beenFrigga’s special wish to have her there, too.

“I donot know why you try to talk sense into him through humanity. The very thing hedesired to oppress just a moment ago” She held her sword as if she bracedfor an imminent fight and pressed her lips together.

“Thatis exactly why I do it. Humanity is flawed and even more so, humanity ismortal. Our morals aren’t set in stone, our emotions aren’t rational. This verytruth insights chaos - and death through war. But it is also the origin forhumanity’s most beautiful aspects that are too often disregarded, even byhumans themselves” Y/N replied and raised both eyebrows: “And ifthere is one thing I have learned through humans, it is that there is no solelyevil person. We’ve had monstrous dictators, warlords and rulers of all kinds,and most of them had a human side. Loved classical music, loved animals, weregreat parents. You just have tolook.”

Y/N walkedthe last meters to Loki’s cell alone.

“Aren’tyou getting tired of coming here? You don’t have a thousand years to live”Loki remarked whilst putting the book in his hands aside.

“Idon’t, you’re correct. But I’ve chosen to be here, and I’d appreciate if youdidn’t make me regret my decision” Y/N replied and raised their hand:“Frigga told me you know this thing.”

His eyesseemed a bit more interested when he saw the metal bracelet on Y/N’s wrist: “Ido, I used it when I was a child.”

“Careto use it again?” Y/N asked and raised an eyebrow whilst smiling:“I’m sure you’d like to see something else than this cell, though, it’s alovely cell.”

He stood upand in his eyes, there was a sly sparkle that showed his desire for achallenge: “Whatever you say.”

“Thenplace your hand over the bracelet.”

“Iknow how this works, Y/N, remember?” he replied with a smirk and placed hishand on the cell’s window.

Screams.And gunfire. People running, children crying.

“Whereare we?”

“Itold you about war” Y/N said, “And here it is.”

Men werehiding behind anything they could find, cars, boxes, debris to have enoughprotection to open fire on the enemy. Women were trying to get cover, some wererunning through doors to get in their houses, others were trying to get awayfrom them.

“Whyare you showing me this?” Loki asked.

“Soyou see the insanity, the insanity that is humanity” Y/N replied andpointed on a young boy that was hiding behind the remains of a collapsedbuilding. He spotted a girl, even younger than he himself, that was standingout in the open. In the direct line of fire.

“Shewill die.”

“Notif someone interferes” Y/N replied quietly.

In thatmoment, the young boy jumped up and ran like the devil. He grabbed the girl,yelled “RUN” and dragged her to relative safety.

Y/N lookedat Loki’s face. He watched the situation unfold, without much emotions seepingthrough: “It’s a civil war, isn’t that so? If their rule had been morestable, there wouldn’t be one.”

Y/N nodded:“Maybe. But this isn’t freedom you describe.”

“Freedomis a lie, the greatest lie of one’s life” he replied coldly, “We havea part we all have to play.”

The settingchanged. In front of their feet, there was a mass grave with white crosses stretchingto the horizon.

“You knowthis?” Y/N asked and bowed down to the crosses.

“Isuppose a war cemetery” Loki replied, “You have many of those.”

“Notjust any” Y/N replied, “Those men fought for the freedom of Europe. Mostof them Americans. It’s a part of the men that gave their lives for the idea ofhaving democracy and peace in the world and to defeat the Nazis. The Nazis hada beautifully running state: Everyone knew their role, there were no major protestsand every order was given my one man.” Y/N’s voice turned bitter:“The problem was that this man had the wish for ethnical cleansing and expansionof his country, which led to one of the worst genocides in human history. Thesemen, alongside thousands of others, stood up to this man. They gave humanitythe chance to do things right this time.”

Y/N lookedat Loki with sad, but defiant eyes: “The man in Stuttgart, the man whostood up to you. Guess why he did that.”

Loki raisedan eyebrow, but his face changed. It grew darker, more conflicted.

“Helived through hell as a child. When he said ‘not to men like you’ he comparedyou to the men he knew. When he said ‘there will always be men like you’ hesaid that you - you were just like the men he knew. That’s why we do not want tobe ruled, Loki. Look around you, you’ve seen the cost” Y/N said silently.

The scenechanged yet again and a train could be seen in a station, a person was trappedin the gap between the train and the platform.

“Andin all of this darkness, we find faith. And good” Y/N said and pointed tothe group of people that pushed against the train, to move it some inches, tofree the person.

Y/N watchedLoki’s expression. His eyes, they were confused.

And thescenery changed, again. Now, they could see firefighters freeing people from aburning house, little children, their parents and their pets.

“Theavengers aren’t humanity’s only heroes. We have entire facilities that aredesignated to save lives. Firefighters, doctors, policemen and women. Ordinary peoplethat stop others from killing themselves” Y/N said while Loki pressed hislips together.

“What isit?” Y/N asked, “Being silent doesn’t fit your usual pattern.”

“Whata conflicting species you are” He muttered.

“Weare, but so are you. We can choose to do good, we can choose to save lives - wecan also decide to take them. And you, Loki, can do the same.”

Y/N brokethe connection of the bracelet and Loki. They back in the dungeons.

“Why didyou cut it?” Loki asked irritated.

“Ithink you’ve seen enough to see what humanity is” Y/N said with a smile,“What do you think about Midgard now?”

“…They’retougher than they look” Loki said cautiously, aware that Y/N was waitingfor him to make a tactical mistake.

“Iwill return soon. Maybe you will have come up with some conclusions until then,Loki” Y/N said and turned to Sif: “See? I told you I will befine.”