#thw point is that we are all different and we are also a minority and stronger together.

[misterradio]

discourse is crazy sometimes u just have a divisive topic that rules your dashboard both sides duking it out and no conclusion is ever reached and then suddenly u realize u havent heard anyone say anything about it in years

[silentfcknhill]

FAVORITE SHOWS IN POSTERS

Well, we’re back for another installment of this tagged meme, this time for TV shows! I also stole this from/was indirectly tagged by @jcmorrigan. My taste in shows also differs a bit from my taste in movies, as I tend to like a lot of comedy shows with not as many horror ones. I’m not into shows as much as movies overall, but there are some that I am very passionate about so I picked twenty again. So, here we go for part 2, in order:

1. Avatar: The Last Airbender/The Legend Of Korra (2005-2014)

I'm including these as one show since they take place in the same universe and tell a continuation of the same overall plot. Altogether this is probably the best piece of media to ever exist, including movies. It has so many great characters and villains especially and some of the most epic sequences, charming humor and heartwarming moments ever. I've never met a person who didn't like these shows, even people who normally don't like cartoons. My dad, who is biased against animation? He loved it. My mother? She loved it, watched it with her multiple times. My grandmother? Loved it. My ex-boyfriend? Loved it. My best friend? Loved it. I dare anyone not to, and I'm so glad it's making a resurgence since it's on Netflix for a new generation to enjoy.

2. Black Butler (2008-2014)

I never was big into anime growing up and only really started watching anime when I was like 16 and above, but this is one of the exceptions because holy shit is it ever dark and epic. I'm not sure I'd really recommend it for kids, it's more of a teens and young adults kind of anime and that's probably why it's so good, because it isn't afraid to explore dark and mature topics and do it with all of the intensity and gravitas required to do said topics justice. It has lots of great characters, and the story of demons who make deals with children who have a dark side is fun to watch play out.

3. Seinfeld (1989-1998)

My dad was a huge fan of this show so I watched it growing up since I was a toddler and it became a classic for me. I've watched thw hole show through at least 8 times, and I'll never stop because it never gets old or boring. It's also my only comfort show when I'm having a panic attack because of one time a few years ago when I was having a drug-induced psychosis episode and watching it calmed me down, so now it's like the opposite of a trigger and whenever I'm having an episode or something I watch it to bring me back to reality. For that reason it's more than a show to me, it's a medical treatment and I'm forever grateful to it.

4. The Good Place (2016-2020)

The big four shows made my Michael Schur all made it on this post (The Good Place, Brooklyn Nine-Nine, The Office and Parks And Recreation), either in the main list of the honorable mentions, but this is my personal favorite of the four. It's so funny, quirky, relatable and basically tailor-made to suit my interests. Not only is it an entertaining and wholesome show, but I think watching it helped me come to terms with a lot of things like mortality, ethics, philosophy, religion and my relationships with other people. It gets  alot of different viewpoints across and if you're a very analytical and philosophical person like me you'll probably enjoy seeing it all play out. Not to mention, every single character is 'favorite character' material. It's rare you find a show with no filler characters in the main cast, but I genuinely can't choose who is best.

5. Brooklyn Nine-Nine (2013-?)

Another of Michael Schur's shows, this one is just barely under The Good Place and to be honest it was tough to pick my favorite between the two because they're both equally funny. I know it's kind of controversial right now because of the whole law enforcement thing, but I actually think they do a good job of handling social issues in the show and remaining respectful of real-life systemic problems. As for the characters, this is another one of those shows where every single character is gold and I think that tends to be a trend among Schur's shows in general. He produces damn good comedy, and damn good characters. I can't wait to see what they bring next.

6. Rick And Morty (2013-?)

This is unfortunately one of those cases of 'great show, horrible fandom' and for that reason I don't get involved in the fandom even though I love the show. It's a shame because it really is a great show, so funny and, again, such good characters. I think it's a lot more accessible than the fandom likes to claim, so I'm hoping more people will give it a chance and not get put off by the intellectual elitism of the fandom because it does have some of the most entertaining and batshit crazy episodes ever, poking fun of some of the staples of science fiction in media while also poking fun of itself the whole time. Unlike the fandom, the show doesn't take itself seriously and that's enjoyable nowadays.

7. Orange Is The New Black (2013-2019)

While this show is a comedy, it is also a lot of other things and it's probably made me ugly-cry just as many times as it's made me laugh. Well, maybe not as often, but those few scenes (if you've watched the show then you know the ones I'm talking about) made me hysterically sob hard enough to be worth like fifty minor sads. But I didn't even mind because the show is just that good, and it makes you /feel/ something in a real way. Probably because of just how real it gets in terms of telling stories that happen all the time in the real world, sometimes with inevitably tragic endings. But these things do happen every day, and it's important to shine a light on that. It's not just representation for LGBTQ+ but also for POC, the neurodiverse, the poor, and many more. Give it a watch to broaden your perspective!

8. Big Mouth (2017-?)

This is probably the grossest show I've ever seen but by god is it ever funny. Maybe it's because I have an immature sense of humor or something, but I love this show. It definitely won't be everyone's cup of tea and I don't recommend you watch this show with anyone else around because it will get awkward. I think part of its appeal to me is that everyone I talk to who likes it considers it so relatable to their lives growing up but for someone like me who grew up on the autism and asexual spectrum and who was physically an early-bloomer by years, nothing about this show is relatable to me in any way so it makes it all the more crazy and bizarre watching how the people around me must have experienced things. Did y'all really have these experiences with puberty in middle school???

9. Dexter (2006-2013)

I recently heard that this show is coming back for a reboot soon and I'm so excited because this is my absolute favorite drama/thriller show, as evidenced by the fact that it's the highest one on the list so far that isn't a comedy. I love the idea of having a protagonist who is sort of a villain (or at least morally dubious), and the idea of a serial killer who only kills bad people is particularly satisfying for some reason. Maybe because he's the vigilante we all deserve and want in this unjust and evil world of modern times? Idk but the very premise of this show set it up for big things and aside from the ending I think it delivered consistently.

10. Once Upon A Time (2011-2018)

This show took us on some journeys, and you can't deny that. Sure, maybe it didn't always finish what it started and didn't always end in the most satisfying way, but part of its charm is that you didn't care because the experience was just so much fun. They took characters and stories that have been told to death and somehow managed to put a unique and unexpected twist on them, and that alone is admirable. Good twists, good villains, and pretty much every cliffhanger known to man will keep you hooked on binge-watching every episode.

11. RuPaul's Drag Race (2009-?)

A bit different than the other entries on my list in that it's not fiction but a reality competition show, but I couldn't leave Drag Race out because it's just so fucking iconic and perfect. Even when you disagree with the judges or can't stand a certain contestant you'll still be having a good time. It's got the personalities you love to love, the ones you love to hate, and the comedy that's completely meme-able. I mean just how much has this show contributed to pop culture and the internet? More than most of us, henny. I've watched every single season, even the international ones and all of the spinoffs. This show will probably be on for another thirty years when Ru is throwing shade from a hospital bed and I'll still be watching.

12. House (2004-2012)

Some people hate on this show, and I don't get it. I love House. Yes, he's an ass. That's the point. He's supposed to be unlikeable, and that's why I like him. Maybe because I always love the rude, sarcastic, misanthropic jerkass-genius characters for some reason. And I also love procedural shows, so it's a win-win. I also work in the healthcare field so it appeals to me for that reason too, because obviously the whole premise is outlandish which is what makes it funny. Of course it's not realistic for a hospital, so just enjoy the absurdity and don't get too hung up on the details of medical accuracy and professional ethics and you'll be fine.

13. The Office (2005-2013)

The third of Michael Schur's show and the last one that made the main list (sorry Parks And Rec, I love you too but there was just so many good shows to choose from and I saw you last so the nostalgia isn't as strong!) I don't think I need to hype this show up any, it's already a classic and you can't even turn around online without getting hit in the face by a dozen Office memes. You'll have to pry this show and it's relatable characters (especially Michael Scott) from my cold, dead hands.

14. All Hail King Julien/The Penguins Of Madagascar (2008-2017)

Like Avatar/Korra, I also consider this as one show for the sake of this list because it also takes place in the same universe (Madagascar, specifically) and I just couldn't choose one over the other because they're both so perfect. They're funny and I love all the characters (it cut out the weaker links of the Madagascar film series and just focuses on expanding the standout side-characters like King Julien and the penguins). It also delved into some lore, particularly the first show, and even though I didn't also agree with the directions it took (you may have seen me get salty about the ending because I cared too much), I can't deny how much I love it.

15. Bones (2005-2017)

One of the other scarce non-comedy shows on this list, it still has it's funny moments. It's also, like House, another procedural show that involves some medical stuff, but this time on a more scientific and forensic level which is even more interesting. It's nice to see a lead female with Asperger's, too. There's a lot of cop/law enforcement shows where they try to solve crimes, but this one is the best, and I'm saying that as a fan of CSI as well. Don't fight me on this, I'm right. Oh yes, it's corny, it's campy, it's cheesy, but I love every minute of it. Don't watch if you have a weak stomach though.

16. The Simpsons (1989-?)

We all grew up with this show, don't lie. It's been around longer than most people on tumblr have even been alive. Should it have ended seasons ago? Hell yes. But that doesn't take away what the first like 20 or so seasons gave us (there's a lot of argument about when the show jumped the shark, for me it wasn't until much later than the popular consensus). The characters are amazing, but the secret to the show's longevity is that they always return to status quo and there's comfort and nostalgia in that. Bart will still be in 4th grade when you're out there pushing 90. This show is persistent. This show is eternal. This show will outlive us all.

17. Ash Vs. Evil Dead (2015-2018)

Sorely underrated. This show is hilarious, gruesome and campy as hell and I love it. I don't think you necessarily have to watch the Evil Dead movies beforehand in order to get the plot of the show, although it would probably help. In my opinion this show ended way too soon and I'm hoping someday we'll get a comeback because Ash is the reluctant, self-absorbed hero we all need and it's 2020 so at this point there really might actually be a demon-zombie apocalypse and who's gonna save us then if not for the impulsive womanizer with a chainsaw for a hand?

18. Malcolm In The Middle (2000-2006)

Another show I grew up with, I don't think it gets as much credit as it deserves. It has some damn funny episodes and great characters, and it did a lot of the popular sitcom tropes before they were 'cool'. Some other great sitcoms, The Middle in particular, took a lot of influence from this show and it helped pave the way for the future of sitcoms at a time when they were about to make a comeback. If you want a good show about the real experiences of growing up, this is a much more accurate representation of the highs and lows of being an awkward tween from a dysfunctional home.

19. A Series Of Unfortunate Events (2017-2019)

Unlike most people I actually liked the movie version from the early 2000's, and I read the books growing up so I was excited when I saw there was a live action television adaptation of it on Netflix because I felt like they cancelled the movie franchise too soon. I was interested to see how new actors would handle the roles, and I was not disappointed. I wouldn't say I liked either portrayal of the characters better or worse, they both added their own twist to it and this show is a great and loyal adaptation to the books, probably because the author was so heavily involved. He knew just when to stick to the books and when to improve upon what he had done with the benefit of hindsight. This show is basically the books, but remastered.

20. Winx Club (2004-?)

Sort of an odd one out on this list, but I really love this show even as an adult and it may surprise you to learn it is still going on and the most recent season came out last year. They take big breaks sometimes in between seasons, but it's still going strong and in multiple countries. The only thing I don't like about watching this show is all the different and inconsistent dubs since the original show is Italian and each dub only goes for a couple seasons so by the time you get used to one set of voices/names for the characters oyu have to abruptly switch to another, but it's still worth it for the beautiful animation and cool characters (especially the villains!)

Honorable Mentions: 

13 Reasons Why, America's Next Top Model, American Horror Story, Arrested Development, Bates Motel, Battlestar Galactica, Black Mirror, Care Bears, Chernobyl, Courage The Cowardly Dog, Criminal, CSI, Duck Dodgers, Goosebumps, Kenny Vs. Spenny, Kim Possible, Kingdom Hospital, Lazytown, Lost, Making A Murderer, Mayday, Mindhunter, Modern Family, Monster High, Obsession: Dark Desires, Parks And Recreation, Prison Break, Project Runway, Queer As Folk, Queer Eye, Salem, Schitt's Creek, SCTV, Spongebob Squarepants, The Emperor's New School, The Good Doctor, The Haunting Of Hill House/Bly Manor, The Middle, The Pretender, The Walking Dead, The X-Files, Through The Wormhole, Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, Unsolved Mysteries, Yugioh

Tagging: @bullet-farmer​ and anyone else who wants to!

[bi-bi-want-dragon]

So... I think I found New Berk? 

(long post warning. so so long. and lots of pictures so sorry mobile users...) I don’t know if anyone else had pinpointed a possible place that New Berk exists in relation to Hiccup’s map, but I might have somewhat of an answer.

I was doing a bit of extremely major minor world building trying to figure out where the Hidden World and other places are in relation to Old Berk.  @redkiteslike​ actually pointed me to a couple posts she made or added to here that pinpointed a possible area for the Hidden World’s location.  And that was incredibly helpful (thanks again, Reddie!)

But then I did more digging and dug back out that interactive map, you know the one dreamworks had on their website and then took down, the Race to the Edge one, the one I’m sure we all have at least seen a reference to before?

Yeah that one :) (ignore the funky looking places, it’s pieces I edited together) ANYWAY

My little nerd butt was trying to calculate some travel timing both by boat and dragon between Old Berk and the Wingmaidens or Old Berk and Berserker Island or Outcast Island to blah blah blah you get the picture.

And then I got to New Berk. And I couldn’t find any point of reference for that.  So in trying to figure out how long it would take to get from, say, Old Berk to New Berk, went back to the third movie and took some clues from there.  From context clues the Hooligans were able to get to the location that would become New Berk in less than a day.  They went west and it wasn’t a previously discovered island, so it would have to be west of the edge of Hiccups current map (above).  Dragon’s Edge was also about a day’s flight from Old Berk.  So I just drew an imaginary line directly west of Old Berk about the same distance away as Dragon’s Edge but in the opposite direction, and said “Yeah, that good enough!”

And then it wasn’t.

So back to the third movie I go for the umpteenth time to see if I somehow missed something after combing through it over and over and over and...

I skipped straight to the part where they’re en route for New-Berk-to-be, but this time I paid more attention to the things Grimmel was saying.  Which I hadn’t done before, because although he got lucky, he incorrectly guessed the reasoning behind Hiccup’s decisions about which direction exactly to go.

And then I saw his map.

Now I never paid a whole lot of attention to it before because it was a lot scarcer than Hiccup’s map so I didn���t really think it accurate.  And then I noticed this little guy. (Apologies in advance for the awful photo quality, I’m a writer not a digital artist.)

Kinda looks like the shape of Dark Deep on Hiccup’s map.  And then this guy...

Not too bad for Berk.  And these look a lot like the Rookery and Scauldron Island.

So then this little line of islands here...

Must be Dragon, Thor Rock, Crescent, and Sunstone Islands.

Grimmel’s are slanted differently just because of the angle of the shot.  And they’re not exact, but that would make sense because I think it’s safe to assume that Grimmel made this map himself, just like Hiccup made his.  So they wouldn’t be exact, they would potentially be skewed by perspective and be dependent on the skill of the creator.

So Grimmel basically says that the Berkians would have to follow the line of Dragon, Thor Rock, Sunstone, and Crescent islands on their path away from Berk.  We can assume he’s right because, well, he found them not long after they left.  And we know New Berk is northwest of Old Berk as well.  So looking at that northwestern corner of Hiccup’s RTTE map...

We’ve got a pretty good view of where they may have been flying.

Now.

I wanna talk about this guy.

It’s not named, and I don’t recall it existing anywhere in RTTE or HTTYD2; after all, if it was, we’d have a name for it.  It’s directly in line with the islands the Berkians followed.  And the shape especially peaked my interest.

We don’t have a clear shot of the entirety of New Berk, but the two views we do get of the side of the island show that it doesn’t seem to have many irregular outcroppings, and almost a corner on the side they approach from (i.e. the southeastern side of the island).

Which is consistent with the shape of the island on Hiccup’s map.

Now, I will say that going off of distance, I wouldn’t have placed New Berk quite that far out from Old Berk.  But we all know there’s enough inconsistencies between RTTE and THW (or the movies in general) that I’m not too concerned about it.  And the fact that it does already exist on Hiccup’s map makes me a little hesitant.  However, Hiccup never said whether or not it was a known island.  Just that “this place is very nice, but it’s not the Hidden World,” and that “it’s defensible, hidden.”  Which, to be fair, there’s not exactly much else adjacent to that island both in the movie or on Hiccup’s map.

This also fits fairly well with what Reddie said about the location of the Hidden World.  Hiccup says its “nine days east of the Edge of the World” which would be the Hidden World, and I would assume nine days would be by ship.  So the Hidden World would either be directly west of New Berk...  Or directly west of Old Berk. Aka southwest of New Berk. Which there is plenty of space there for the Hidden World to possibly be. That could even place the Hidden World fairly close to the Rookery by dragon-flight standards.

So... Welcome to New Berk?

[kingofthewilderwest]

Do you feel that the producers limited themselves with insisting on only doing three httyd films? They could have done so much more if they weren't so adamant on just doing the three films and six netflix series.

It’s true that when you write an end to a story, you create limitation. But I wouldn’t use the word limitation in the sense you’re putting it at, where you’re suggesting they shortchanged themselves. I feel the limitations were the exact correct choice for HTTYD, and I hold enormous respect for the fact DeBlois insisted on capping at three films.

The most important part of storytelling is knowing the scope of your own story; rushing an ending or stretching material too thin result in unsatisfactory results. Whether or not every HTTYD film used its full potential for time budgeting, it was exactly the right length for a well-structured, nicely-arced storyline. We have three films - a beginning, middle, and end - focused on a specific overarching narrative.

Once you reach a large number of films (let’s say, for instance, there were six HTTYD films) then each movie can start to feel like “random adventure with boy and dragon friend”. The large number takes away from a sense of progression for The Whole. You get more minutes out of the franchise, sure, but do you get more value and emotional import? Adding individual adventures detracts from the power of the overarching narrative, whereas keeping it to three allows us to focus not just on what HTTYD or HTTYD 2 individually does… but where the entire trilogy is taking us. 

HTTYD has Hiccup as a son butting with his chief father; HTTYD 2 has Hiccup struggling with becoming chief and losing his father; HTTYD 3 has Hiccup remembering his father and making choices as chief. There’s progression and purpose to every installment. HTTYD has Hiccup losing his leg and gaining a friend; HTTYD 2 has Hiccup losing a father and gaining leadership; HTTYD 3 has Hiccup losing his dragons but gaining a world of peace. All three movies are about becoming of age in different ways, each building on the other as Hiccup reaches adulthood. If we try to add more and more films, we water down the overarching narrative structures, ramble too long without progressing, and take away from the beauty of the Whole. There’s MEANT to be a beginning, middle, and end, and closely tied-together narratives, across the films. And while some people say they could’ve used a fourth film (no, that was just some questionable time budgeting choices on 3, in my opinion - one movie’s length is more than sufficient enough to wrap up information), I don’t think so… it would have just watered down the power of the overarching whole.

And even if they had tried to stick close to the central plot throughout, I feel HTTYD’s scope and plot would have been stretched too thin with more films (like The Hobbit trilogy got stretched too thin for plot).

There’s also the fact audiences only have so much interest in sequels. A trilogy is graspable and appreciable. Once you say “How to Train Your Dragon 4,” people roll their eyes. And the HTTYD franchise is huge, besides! I know you said “just three films and six Netflix seasons,” but honestly, I think DreamWorks milked a TOOOOON out of this franchise! They’ve given us a huge amount of material! We have:

Three feature length films (HTTYD, HTTYD 2, and THW)

Five movie shorts (Gift of the Night Fury, Book of Dragons, Legend of the Boneknapper Dragon, Dawn of the Dragon Racers, and Homecoming)

“Three” television series (ROB, DOB, and RTTE) for a total of 118 episodes

A fourth television series for little kids! Rescue Riders!

Three comic book series (ROB, DOB, and The Serpent’s Heir – Dragon Vine) for a total of 10 graphic novels; plus an extra FCBD short “Burning Midnight”

So many video games I do not feel like counting them 

Print books related to the franchise

SEVERAL live shows!

Other minor amusing things, like the Dragon-Viking Games

There’s hours and hours and hours and hours of content here! It’s amazing!

And of course, outside of DreamWorks, there’s the book series, with quite a few installments there!

DreamWorks did a glorious amount of expansion in HTTYD, and I think they did the right amount of expansion. They franchised it out to give us abundant material, but they didn’t water down the content ad infinitum. They understand their scope: a six year period where Hiccup’s flying with Toothless. They keep the core of the meaning, give us a ton of adventures, and leave us with a firm conclusion that shows there’s end game, direction, and point to the narrative.

[kingofthewilderwest]

Hey :) I want to watch more httyd but sadly I've seen all the movies, are the tv series' any good? Which one should I start with?

Oh goodness, I have a post somewhere answering this very question, but I’m too lazy to find it. TIME FOR A REWRITE! XD

I find the HTTYD television materials VERY worthwhile additions to the DreamWorks Dragons franchise. I feel like we are extremely blessed to have over a hundred episodes of a show filled with fantastic moments and memories. Personally, I always encourage people to check them out. The shows won’t be for everyone, which is alright, but I feel that the television series has a lot going for it. I love the shows myself and constantly reference some points from them in my analyses because I think they’re so critical. I’ll explain pros and cons so you can make your own choice about whether or not the shows might be your thing.

I’d say the number one highlight of the television series is the increased time with the dragon riding gang - Hiccup, Fishlegs, Ruffnut, Tuffnut, Snotlout, and Astrid. Many of these characters are secondary in the movie trilogy, having little time on screen, but the television series fleshes them out. It’s because of the show that I fell in love with Snotlout’s character and saw him in three-dimensional depth; I’d say he’s the character they handle best, going into how he hides his insecurities with machismo because he wants to impress a berating father. It’s the show for why I attach to the twins; their sibling devotion and love for one another is brought out wonderfully on screen. There’s good moments with everybody, and you’ll see everyone pair up with everybody - what’s the friendship between Astrid and Tuffnut like? Now you’ll know.

I think a decent test for whether or not you’d enjoy the character dynamics is… well… did you like the character bantering that happened in THW? If so, that had a very distinct tv series feel to it - to the point that they were even referencing ongoing television series gags like Snotlout getting his ass caught on fire.

There’s other characters to meet and engage with too! We’ve got Heather, a badass young woman who connects well with Astrid. We’ve got Gustav, an obnoxious wannabe “Snotlout” who shadows the older dragon rider. We’ve got Mala, the queen of a warrior-trained society that reveres dragons. And there’s Atali, Minden, Throk, Savage, Alvin, Dagur, Mulch, Bucket, Mildew, Krogan, Johann, Viggo, Ryker, and more!

The television series is also good for laughs. Did you ever want a musical episode where Snotlout sings about how amazing he is? Did you ever want to see an entire pile of fish dunked on Hiccup’s head? How about where Hiccup painstakingly tries to talk without using the letter s? “TOOTHLEH! PLAMA BLAT!” is a moment I’ll never stop laughing at.

I also think the best DreamWorks Dragons villains are in the television series. Alvin the Treacherous is a hoot on screen, delightfully voice acted by Mark Hamill. Dagur the Deranged has his fan base for a reason. And for me? Viggo Grimborn is my number one favorite villain from the DreamWorks side of HTTYD - a manipulative, morally gray trader who is such a keen strategist he makes Hiccup appear a foolish child.

One small last point: there’s extra depth to appreciate about the films if you go through the shows. Astrid sympathizing with Hiccup in the first film makes even more sense once you realize her family name got tarnished and she felt social ostracization herself. You see Hiccup attempting to develop his flight suit and sword, leading into HTTYD 2 material. The presence of Fireworms in the third film is a reference to a dragon species introduced in the shows. A conversation point in THW about having dealt with “their kind before” (that is, dangerous people like Grimmel) is a reference to Hiccup’s adventures with Viggo Grimborn. The underground caves that become stables in HTTYD 2 were first found in the television series, explored in DOB. Stoick and Hiccup have several conversations about leadership that lend extra feels to the tragedy in HTTYD 2. Tuffnut yakking to Hiccup ridiculously in THW brings up all the memories of weird conversations they’ve had before… there’s extra context, content, and background to appreciate when you approach the movies with knowledge of the full franchise. 

Now, the shows aren’t perfect, and it’s usually the same reasons why people don’t get engaged with the shows. Again: some fans love the shows and scream their way through episodes, some fans dislike the shows and refuse to touch them, and some fans are “meh” about the shows and get through them with liquor. It’s all dependent on the sorts of things you tend to attach to, and the things that tend to bother you.

One reason some people don’t engage is that the first episodes of the first series (Riders of Berk) can feel childish in tone with low stakes. It is to note that the adventures and stakes do grow from the start. The animation levels also drastically improve from start to end… it’s a wild difference to compare the first episode of Riders of Berk with the finale of Race to the Edge.

Another reason is that the shows are not about the dragon characters. There will be the introduction of many cool dragon species like the Death Song, Scauldron, or Thunderdrum, but the shows aren’t about the humans connecting with their dragon friends. They do not focus on the dragon characters. So don’t go here for Hiccup and Toothless dynamics. There’s a few feelsy moments to talk about, but not many; Toothless is mostly a background character as the stories focus on the humans instead.

Next, some people feel like the characters are “dumbed down” or written inconsistently, and while I wouldn’t phrase it exactly like that, there’s a point to be made there. Some audience members especially don’t like how Hiccstrid gets handled in the first half of RTTE, where they feel like the bumbling hesitant startings of romance is inaccurate to how the two would develop relationally. (It’s to note that another group of people fawn over the Hiccstrid dynamics). Others hate Heather, calling her a “Mary Sue” (a term I think should be retired from existence because it’s a pointless criticism word anymore, but anyway, some people feel like Heather is an Angst Child who takes too much screen time, and that’s a fair point too). Astrid sometimes feels too damsel-in-distress-y for me. As far as Hiccup? Well. Hiccup’s personality is presented a bit differently than you usually see in the movies. RTTE!Hiccup is some of my favorite Hiccup, but he is presented with a different flavor.

Next, some people say that the television series story is inconsistent, completely irreconcilable, with the events of the trilogy. I personally find the continuity blips minor at best, and similar to franchise blips that happen anywhere, but it’s your call, and it’s totally fine if you find the continuity irreconcilable. It’s your take! It’s your experience with the story! Things like Hiccstrid romantic development, whether or not Berk was at peace during the five year gap between HTTYD and HTTYD 2, whether or not Hiccup knew anything about Bewilderbeasts, and whether or not Hiccup had run into other dragon riders before Valka… well… the television series will present something different than you might have presumed from movie material alone. This HIGHLY irritates some people, as it can feel like it sabotages the efficacy of certain moments in the films. For other people like me, it’s an entire non-issue. All is all fair because we engage with media in different ways! Here’s the issue just so you know: you can make your call about whether or not continuity questions will bother you.

Last, the plot. The first two television series, the plot is straightforward and fine. For RTTE, the plot is not the best presented. I think the first two seasons start out GREAT, but then it gets increasing issues. It’s for this reason that some people like ROB and DOB but aren’t engaged with RTTE. There’s a lot of fun to be had in it, and there’s many points at which I was fully engaged. In many ways, RTTE does some things BEST of the whole series. BUT. It doesn’t take much observation to realize there are logic gaps, motivation questions, convoluted but repetitive plot twists, some eyebrow-raising unrealistic moments, and instead of showing smooth characterization, people have a tendency to suddenly jump forward or shift in spurts. If you’re someone who gets invested in a show primarily for long-term plot arcs, you might get irritated at decisions in RTTE. But if you’re someone who’s willing to go along for the ride and just have fun and take it for what it is, RTTE has an entertaining story with lots of adventure.

For me? The television series is a blessing and COMPLETELY worth the watch. But I hope this discussion of pros and cons can make your decision best for you!

So! With all that said! What order should you watch them in? The order that they were released:

Riders of Berk

Defenders of Berk

Race to the Edge

Riders and Defenders of Berk are not on Netflix and you’ll have to go elsewhere to watch them. Race to the Edge got released on Netflix and is still available there… though all the shows have been released on DVD by this point.

I highly encourage you to watch the shows start to end as they came out because of plot reasons. RTTE especially needs to be watched in episode order, but RTTE makes sense only in the context of you seeing ROB and DOB first. There are filler episodes, but there are overarching plots. If you went straight into Race to the Edge first, you’d have no idea who the Helheim Heather and Dagur are, and why it’s important to run into them. 

I hope this helps you and any others considering the shows! It’s so much more dragons dragons dragons dragons dragons and I hope that, if you watch, you have just as much of a blast as I did!

[kingofthewilderwest]

I totally get what you're saying about fandom and canon (or at least I think I do) and that what's really important is a love of the material, and I agree to that respect, but personally, reading the words "canon doesn't matter" kind of rustles my jimmies, because for some people (like me) and in some spaces, canon is extremely important. 1/?

People will find importance in canon for whatever reasons that are individual to them, and I think it’s important to consider that. There are also spaces where discussion of canon IS important, like when it comes to issues of representation. I think you’ve read my post about the phrase “there is no heterosexual explanation for this” and my rebuttal of “not every emotionally intimate relationship between two characters of the same gender is inherently gay” in response to people claiming that 2/

certain same gender pairings are “obviously” “gay for each other”, when there’s nothing in the canon that points to anything beyond an emotionally intimate relationship. One of the people who commented on it made a really good point that while it’s fine to ship something regardless of canon, it’s a different thing entirely to claim that something IS canon when there’s no evidence for it, or evidence that’s up to too much interpretation, because claiming that such a relationship IS canon 3/?

when in fact it’s barely hinted at and interpretable at best, it means that it’s much more difficult to call for better representation, when someone who is against representation can go “see? look at all the people who say [interpretable pairing] is canon. they don’t need anything more explicit!” 4/?

I think that there ARE spaces in fandom where that’s an important discussion to have. So I disagree with you that canon doesn’t matter, because there are places for it, and for individual people, it’s very important. But I agree entirely that there shouldn’t be arguments in fandom about what is or is not canon that basically involves gatekeeping “canon” or being mean to others because of what they think is or is not canon. 5/?

In a perfect world, people would be willing to agree to disagree about what is or is not canon and accept that other people have different opinions of how far canon goes. Unfortunately, that’s not the case, so I definitely agree that it’s bad for people to assert that their view of canon is the “correct” view, and - if I may be so audacious as to assume intent - is really the point you’re trying to make. 6/? (I think?)

I think that not caring about canon has its place in certain fandom contexts, but not all of them. It’s kind of like it’s a different analytical framework, one that’s useful sometimes but not other times. 7/? 

And certainly, I think canon has importance in places that exist at the boundaries of fandom, like when canon is considered in historical studies or in literature reviews. Though that’s also getting into discussions of where fandom ends and other disciplines begin, so it’s probably a moot point, and probably depends on someone’s perspective and intent. 9/? (or 8?)

I’m gonna stop myself here from going into literary theory/criticism/whatever about when and where canon matters, but I think I’ve made my point that while I agree with the sentiment of what you’re saying, I disagree with the statement that “canon doesn’t matter” in fandom. Because I think it does, but just not in every context. 10/10 (or whatever number)

From this.

As always, you’ve got a wealth of thoughtful and well-worded discussion here. You’re a brilliant human being, and one of the reasons I love talking to you is because of your deep analytical perspectives. I think another reason I jive with you as a friend is because we tend to hold similar perspectives. It’s fun, because we both entertain creative or emotional discussions extrapolated from source materials, and we both acknowledge what canon objectively contains. 

I apologize: I thought I’d been more clear with the context of what I was criticizing regarding fandom’s relationship with canon. I think I also banked on followers knowing I’m a logically centered individual who cares deeply about facts and not just heart. I suppose not, and I’m sorry if I were misleading. My mistake! How you disagree with my phrase “canon doesn’t matter” is not what I was intending to suggest and it’s not the values I have regarding canon. That one sentence wasn’t meant to stand on its own that much. We do in truth consider canon’s importance the same way!

My critique intended to be about the discussion of “What are the canon materials?” rather than “What information is in the canon?” As I read it, your response goes through both, and where you say you disagreed is mostly when you looked at the latter (but I was intentionally honing in only on the former). Maybe it’s a good idea for us to separate these concepts rather than conflate it into a large debate of “what is canon?” from too broad an angle.

My critique was about how fans police others’ engagement for things like Watsonian interpretations, headcanons, speculative meta, and fanfiction writing. If people want to analyze Edward Elric’s personality only from FMAB, or if they want to include minor tie-ins (ex: Prince of the Dawn, Sacred Star of Milos, omake, etc.), either perspective provides interesting analytical angles. They’re both valid ways of handling the character’s personality.

Especially since I experience the “What is canon materials?” conversation with the HTTYD fandom, I tend to see the debate centered on continuity and OOC/IC interactions. Also, at times, how “big” a material is - like video games being “less authoritative” than the films. These conversations are more about how people do or don’t emotionally reject RTTE for their personal headcanon/discussion space. These are people who acknowledge the show’s implications rather than deny RTTE’s existence or the implications of the content. It’s exactly because people engage and examine its contents, that some people might like to talk about Hiccup through RTTE lenses, and others will never entertain such speculations. 

(You know this stuff, I’m sure, but I’m spelling it all out to be clear, and for other readers to follow.)

What I’m saying is that in angles like these, what is or is not canon doesn’t matter, because we have the right to recreationally interact with Hiccup through some of the officially licensed materials, or through all of them. We have the right to completely ignore ALL canon and imagine him as something else, too!

That discussion that I focused on is about what people accept as “the most official materials” versus “unofficial materials.” Your focus for the majority of your message looks to me like a nuanced angle on something else - the other “spaces,” “places,” “frameworks” you bring up. That’s about whether or not people acknowledge what’s inside those materials. It’s about whether or not people are able to acknowledge that things happen in official materials, or are able to correctly discern objective versus subjective information within that media. That’s not something I was covering in that conversation because it wasn’t contextually relevant, but yes, you’re absolutely right that these distinctions are important!

The viral post you mentioned is one I’ll never forget from you, because I agree with it 100%. It’s the same frustration I hold, so it was so enthralling to see it put to words. It’s poor thinking for fans to subjectively interpret canon materials and try to push it as The One Truth… when it is not objectively what the source material contains. Feel free to tie things together how you want for funsies, that doesn’t make it what the source ACTUALLY says.

This is why I mentioned, at the start of my discussion, that I get uncomfortable when people dismiss officially licensed materials as “fanfiction” or “not real.” These exist whether we like them to or not. The reason it’s important to distinguish fandom from canon is because canon is what feeds us, and is what provides authority for what the franchise is. Whether or not you like the materials or engage with them for things like headcanoning, they’re there, and you have to be able to acknowledge: these materials exist. The companies gave them to us.

Because a product exists, you can’t say “bye” to the consequences of its existence. You have to know it exists, and what it does/doesn’t contain. It’s poor thinking for individuals to extrapolate materials from canon that were objectively not intended by the creators, but fans still try to push it as “the true story.” What the source material objectively contains cannot be replaced by emotional wants or denials. That’s where things like representation or romance come into play, as you mentioned: it’s (usually) fine to relate to and interpret the characters as you want, so long as you can separate that from the objective reality of the source material. You have to be able to acknowledge what the source material contains.

I want to make it very clear:

There’s an enormous difference between emotionally deciding which canonical materials you engage with for your creative frameworking…

…versus denying the existence of what officially licensed products contain, or insisting that your subjective interpretation is objectively true. 

For the former: canon doesn’t matter. That’s my discussion of the previous post. Policing fans by telling them one source is canon and one isn’t… when it’s all licensed materials… is forcing people to engage with canon a certain way. We all have the right to engage with all licensed materials to the depth we want. If I want to accept RTTE and analyze Hiccup from RTTE to GOTNF to THW… let me enjoy that! Don’t tell me to quit analyzing RTTE!Hiccup because it doesn’t feel like he’s IC to you (and ergo, outside of your own mental “canon”). It’s fiiiiine! I can write analyses about RTTE!Hiccup!

For something like the “what is canon materials?” discussion you mentioned as far as academic documentation of a body of works, that is a REALLY interesting discussion, but yeah, as you pointed out, a little outside the boundaries of this current conversation. But I’d love to talk to you sometime about it!!!

For the latter: you better be able to know what the licensed materials actually contain. You shouldn’t deny something exists. Whether or not you call it “canon,” you should be able to acknowledge it’s an official product and not something a fan put on AO3. You should be able to objectively understand what’s in officially released products. If the books have problematic elements, if a show lacks explicit queer representation, if there’s a racial stereotype that’s handled poorly, that’s a truth that you can’t imagine your way out of! You can reinterpret characters for fun in your fandom discussions, but you can’t deny the reality of what the creators produced. Ignoring the truth of these issues, or making your interpretations “reality” you force on others… is dangerous illogical thought that has severe consequences for how you interact with the world and its issues.

As you say, there’s value in all these discussions. We’ve known each other a long time, so I know you know I’m a logic-oriented individual, someone who isn’t going to say “everything is okay!” and let subjectivity fly over objective information in source materials. When I say “canon doesn’t matter,” it’s not about subjectively letting our feelings erase what is objectively presented on screen / on paper. When I say “canon doesn’t matter,” it’s about whether or not someone wants to talk about tie-ins, or only select portions of officially released products. But when I say “canon doesn’t matter,” it is also with the assumption people are smart enough to distinguish subjective interpretation from objective observation, the angle which you brought up with the nuanced discussion we’ve seen. Thanks for speaking with such finesse again on why we can’t lets fans’ desires get in the way of what they call “truth.”

I love to both discuss things from a creative speculative angle and let my imagination wander or reinterpret characters… or discuss materials from a Doylist acknowledgement of how something gets sociologically presented. Hell, I hold such a huge value to official products and canon materials that I engage with almost no fandom content (fanfictions, comics, etc.). So yeah! I also believe that canon is very, very important, and is something to be talked about! 

I think it’s important to understand the impacts that official materials have, and I get frustrated when people pretend something DreamWorks or Disney officially sanctioned is “fanfiction.” I think it’s important for fans to discuss back and forth about what they think objectively happened when there’s a lack of clarity. For the romance thing, again, as you said, it’s a good discussion to have of “what is WITHIN canon?” when looking at whether or not it’s obviously queer, or if you’re reading into it. 

I also love to create synthesized interpretations for what characters are like and I get frustrated when people try to police me on what I can/can’t include into my canon analyses. 

I just have no patience for laypersons who debate “what is canon MATERIAL?” when looking at whether or not a video game should be considered “okay” to synthesize with a movie, and gatekeeping in the sense of what fans can include in our creative engagements. Whether or not X is “as canon” as Y doesn’t matter at the end of the day if you disagree with [insert username here]. It’s your recreation. It’s still a franchise product. Know it exists, know the objective materials, and move on. Do with it as you will and let your friends do with it as they will. 

[kingofthewilderwest]

it kinda bugs me how they cant make httyd3 longer just so they can emphasize the story in a deeper meaning, like your post abt it being disproportionate. httyd3 had a LOT more plot than httyd2 and we can already see how it has to cramp so much and why that makes D2's pace felt pretty fast. the structure of the story is actually well planned.. perfect, to be exact! but the execution like putting pauses, necessary humor, longer dialogue, is whats needed to make it um, understandable? im not sure..

this isnt meant to judge the movie as bad though! but its a question ive been asking why they cant do it longer, for that sake. is it the budget? was Dean really certain the script is okay? or is it meant to be like this so people can interpret the movie their way? (oof that one is confusing).. i dont know, i want to ask about your thoughts on that >

From this.

It’s an interesting conversation for sure! I believe that THW doesn’t have to be longer to be extremely successful in the ideas it needs to convey! The core ideas being:

Toothless cannot be a wild dragon and strong alpha leader with humans. Other dragons probably deserve the respect of needing wild dragon needs, too.

Humans like Grimmel are extremely dangerous to dragons and will continue to arise, so dragons need to go to an area separate from humans to live in optimal peace.

Hiccup and Toothless’ powerful friendship will separate (insofar as physical location) due to the first two points

I know you’re not the only person I’ve talked to who wanted a longer time because you feel like certain elements were cramped, needed more breathing room, or that dangerous plot points didn’t get enough sense of weight. More time would presumably give that flow and sense of scale and danger. Now, it’s true that more time would give us more content to develop these things. That said, I believe solutions aren’t always “add more.” Creating good art isn’t about adding new things; it’s about knowing when to take away or alter, and how to make every second of your creation count optimally.

I remember when I was doing my music composition degree, my instructors hammered into me what would make a good final piece: the editing process of deleting measures - even measures that were really good! - because they didn’t fit what the final product needed. It’s painful to delete, but ultimately, it’s freeing; instead of making a music piece more cluttered to put all possible good ideas in, I can make it less cluttered, more manageable, more beautiful, more meaningful, and more effective to audiences. A better overall piece isn’t putting in every good idea I have; it’s leaving the piece with the beautiful ideas it needs.

I suggest The Hidden World doesn’t need added materials so much as it needs refining what’s already there.

Budget, production green lighting, and carefulness to the script all seem to have been done. HTTYD 3 was given a longer production time than originally planned. They pushed back the date exactly so they could make their best product. Interviews with people like DeBlois and Spielberg (who read several definitions of the script) talk about how much the script was transformed and bettered through its drafts. They did enough tweaking and care to rework the script. As for budget, the movie was 129 million USD, which sure was the cheapest of the HTTYD trilogy to create, but it’s about on par with what DreamWorks has spent on other movies like Home and Trolls - it’s not like there was skimping - and it’s all about making your money count, which I think this glorious, top notch animation quality film effectively did. So from what I’ve heard, I think production ran fine and we can’t question THW there.

I think most of THW’s problems can be solved simply by tweaking how scenes go down, taking a few small elements out, and adding a few small elements in. It doesn’t need time changes; it needs internal modifications to what’s already there. What I propose wouldn’t change much of the movie’s length - though maybe I we could add 5-8 minutes for things like a longer climax.

1. To Feel Less “Cluttered” or “Rushed”

The movie didn’t feel rushed to me or too cluttered, but it’s cluttered. You’re right. In addition to creating less clutter, my suggested tweaks will clear up time THW can spend elsewhere, streamline THW into fewer palatable essential ideas, and give a slight tone makeover that will add more sense of danger and conflict that THW needs.

Fewer humor side gags with minor characters (and less time spent on them). The gang’s antics are fun additions, yes, but that doesn’t mean they’re central to what the plot needs. Spending too much time with them adds clutter and takes away from plot-central, tone-central material. There’s a huge gaggle of gags in THW, more than any movie needs in a less-than-two-hour-long run time. Do we need all these to give THW its comic relief? Don’t get me wrong - I loved the humor - but time needs to be prioritized, and the movie will be improved once “less is more.”

Less time with Tuffnut’s pep talks. This goes with my first point. This comedic gag was lengthy in particular. It’s in part because it connects to the idea of Hiccstrid marrying, which THW does make more central in its themes. However, I also propose:

Spend less time (or delete) the will-they won’t-they marry Hiccstrid plot. THW intends to parallel Hiccup and Toothless maturing into adulthood, including their romantic connections. However, a will-they won’t-they marry subplot in Hiccstrid isn’t needed to create that parallel. Not to mention: it can be uncomfortable to have this undertone of romance as “required” adulthood maturation, and the fact that Hiccstrid are so close and intimate makes it feel “off” that they’re so uncomfortable talking about marriage. Spend less time here, simply make fans aware they’re going to marry in the future but not today, and return to the main relationships THW needs to pay attention to: that of Hicctooth and Nightlight. 

2. To Make Grimmel a Greater Sense of Threat

One of the central points is that Grimmel is extremely dangerous and represents one of many humans that’ll continue to be a threat to dragons. While Grimmel can be overcome, Hiccup will need to interact with Grimmel in such a way he can understand that dragons and humans cannot coexist in today’s civilization without continuing to risk danger, and that it’s best for everyone to live happily in two separate civilizations. It’s not being defeated by the enemy’s oppression, but taking a brilliant countermeasure to give humans and dragons both a better existence.

Making Grimmel feel like a greater sense of threat, and helping audience members understand what Grimmel represents overarchingly of humanity’s current antagonistic state, will help us and Hiccup process why a separation is best. This can be done by:

Show Grimmel’s impact on human society. All we’d have to do is change what his base looks like: it could be located in an area taken over from another human civilization, showing his army’s power and place in this world over humans.

Greater weight placed on Berk’s exodus. The Hooligans lost their home, but it’s played too lightly. It’s not written optimally as an emotionally impacting or destabilizing moment, which decreases the sense of threat Grimmel has. Instead of having the Hooligans excited to find New Berk, show them grieving. They can butt against Hiccup’s ideas of finding the Hidden World, but instead in a way where they’re frustrated at his naive solution and hurt at what they left behind. This isn’t adding time to THW; this is tweaking phraseology and presenting an event differently.

Change how Berk is abandoned. To make the attack feel more dire, threatening, either: 1. Have the Hooligans more reluctant and grumpy to leave in the town meeting, and not play the leaving scene so lightly, or 2. Have Grimmel chase them out of Berk so they have to flee then and there. This might even reduce time! 

Show Grimmel’s power over dragons. We could have a few-second-long flashback of him standing over a field of dead Night Fury bodies, or have his place cloaked in dragon skins or skulls. 

Show Grimmel’s power as a warlord. Grimmel acts in almost a solo fashion, despite cooperating with warlords and having an army. It doesn’t give us a good sense of scale. Show his interactions better with the whole of his forces to make him feel more dangerous, and for humanity as a whole to feel more like a threat against dragons. For example, in the scenes where he’s trying to trap the dragon riders, show him commanding more people.

Show Grimmel’s impact on the dragon (and/or human worlds) through landscape. What if, as the Hairy Hooligans try to find a new place to stay, they fly over several islands that have been destroyed by Grimmel’s forces? Either human civilizations, or homes once havens to dragons, with characters making comment they “hope” people got away. And what if, when Grimmel takes their dragons near the end of THW, it’s again through more violence and a raid and fire and destruction? 

Conversations more clearly talk about Grimmel’s dangers over dragons and humans, and how he’s one of many people that’ll arise. This idea is embedded in THW dialogue, but not clearly enough to fully grasp its weight, especially not in the sense we see characters grasp this. Have Hiccup and Astrid and Valka or something talk about how widely destructive Grimmel is, how even once he’s gone another man like him will take his place, and that while they may continue to fight and win for human and dragonkind, it’s ultimately not the right move to make for everyone to live safest and alive. A conversation laying this out makes a world of difference in our understanding of what dangers are going down and why we need to come to the solution THW concludes with. Again, this isn’t adding time; it’s changing phraseology. 

Add a few minutes to the climax. Make the final fight with Grimmel obviously the final fight, the threat bigger, the action more intense.

Perhaps show that Berk’s done good work changing the world by their choices. Even though Berk ultimately decides to let the dragons go, they are meant to be the voice of peace that changes their world. The good guys can’t resign to letting themselves live under the thumb of bad guys’ choices. Show that they’ve made a difference - Grimmel and his armies are gone and the world is regrowing (no more torched landscape, if we add that element in) - but that it’s still going to help their world by letting dragons go, too… for this generation, at least.

3. To Make Hiccup and Toothless’ Parting Jive Better

Hiccup and Toothless separate out of need - they can’t live in the same place for the better of both their kinds. However, since the movie spends so much time on Toothless chasing after the Light Fury, we don’t get that full sense of need. I propose:

Open THW with a clear Hicctooth sappy bonding moment. We need things like “Forbidden Friendship” and “Where No One Goes” to feel the power of Hicctooth’s love. Give us that starting sense in THW of how close they are before adding in the complications. It can even be done by tweaking how the opening fight scene goes down.

Show dragons profiting by living with humans, but it also being Complicated with their wild side. We need to acknowledge that the relationship between humans and dragons has done the dragons good, too! Otherwise it might feel incongruous with the rest of the franchise.

Show dragons being unfit in the urban area through their own restlessness. The movie tries to show this with Moosie Boi being too big for Berk, and Berk being so crowded with dragons Gobber finds the soup unsanitary. But if we see Stormfly restless and want to leave for the Hidden World, too, wouldn’t this say something more about where dragons are pulled to and belong?

Less time spent on Toothless investigating the Night Fury. You can’t cut this down too much or we’ll feel like rushing, but since THW focuses so much on just Toothless and the Light Fury’s connection rather than an overarching problem for dragons, it’s hard to feel the full-scale issues of the problem. Making it just him and her feels more like a hook up love story than “dragons and humans are incompatible for their needs.”

Change Toothless’ body language. Show more emotional division in Toothless about his conflicting options. Show him hesitant to leave Hiccup and the two interact over that. Show him lonely away from his kind when with Hooligans. Show him feeling that loneliness met - that deep emotional need of being with his own species - when he’d thought was lost to him (rather than focusing on it being a romantic hookup interest). This doesn’t take more time; it tweaks what was already given on screen.

Change Toothless’ emotions with the Light Fury to feel more like loneliness being met than horny boi practicing kissing with a rock. This does a better job of showing that Toothless has a deep need that needs to be met as a wild animal and as a social draconic species.

Change conversations Hiccup has with humans about Toothless’ struggle. Maybe have Hiccup processing less with people and more by himself or with Toothless. Don’t write the conversations with people be about “Toothless has a girlfriend” and “of course he left.” Discuss instead how Night Furies are social creatures and Toothless hasn’t been with his kind in six years - that’s a huge hole in his heart being filled. Validate the deep connection Hiccup and Toothless have, while simultaneously acknowledging the struggle of this moment now. The movie shows that the Light Fury can never be domesticated, so I think that’s fine, but maybe one line from Astrid saying, “I don’t think she’ll come to live with us,” would be enough to help other audience members pick that up too.

More time spent on all dragons being in danger, and Toothless as an alpha unable to protect them with Hairy Hooligans. The story doesn’t show Toothless being much of an alpha - intentional - until he reaches the Hidden World and it clicks. But I suggest it’d be more effective to pull this out more than having an issue with Moose Boi taking up too much space in Berk, and Berk being so crowded Gobber has a dragon in his soup.

Put more of a deal on Toothless being an alpha. You can say that Toothless didn’t understand or use his role as alpha when with humans, but I think showing more sense of conflict, and of an alpha needing to be wild to protect his own, would be useful. Make this an issue for all dragons. The alpha status being used as a blackmail device against Toothless to keep the Light Fury alive could be replaced with us seeing the full species of dragonkind being unable to be protected by an alpha apart from his own people. More needs to be done than dragons bowing to him in one scene to understand what the alpha does for his society.

Show Toothless with more Light Furies. The Light Fury being his singular focus is great. But what about, in the Hidden World, Hiccup and Astrid watch Toothless interacting with a whole group of Night Furies, and he’s clearly in a situation that was Made For Him?

THW already has great content in there - Toothless and the Light Fury interacting, Hiccup crying when he realizes Toothless is fit in the Hidden World, Hiccup freaking out and Astrid comforting him when he feels a low, and Hiccup and Toothless parting ways touchingly at the end.

With these proposed tweaks, we get Toothless and Hiccup’s relationship being addressed deeply from the angle of both friends. We understand what both Toothless and Hiccup emotionally feel, and palatably sense how both love the other. We get a sense that Toothless is attracted to the Light Fury and might want to mate, but that she’s also calling him into a wild life and reminding him that he’s been alone, separated from his kind. We get a sense that it’s not just Toothless, but all dragons who might be called back to the Hidden World. We get a sense that it’s not just Toothless, but his whole role as alpha affecting the entirety of dragonkind.

And once we add in a greater sense of Grimmel being dangerous, and that more humans like him will continue to rise up, we can understand why Berk would release all their dragons. It’s not that dragons hate living with humans - THW can make that clear - and it’s not that dragons haven’t been profited by living with humans. But in the current call, the current situation, it’s best to go to the Hidden World.

I’m mostly tweaking how scenes go down, changing lines and reactions rather than adding material. Feel free to propose a longer movie! For me, THW already has enough space to share its message. Maybe it needed to be a few minutes longer, but I suppose my own sense is that they had enough time to budget in this material, make a smooth-flowing movie with all the material they needed to present, and come away with an astounding storyline.

Like you, this isn’t meant to judge the movie as bad! It isn’t bad! It’s downright wonderful in many aspects. I’m so happy I’ve seen it and can scream over it! Simply, if I were in charge of tweaking the script, these are the first alterations I’d make, and I think it would make THW even better.