#tht's what u get mr. hoffman!!

[angeltrapz]

ok saw asks!!! bcuz i have Amanda on th brain rn i wd like ur take on her interacting w Lawrence? personally idk how much she knew of his involvement bc she implies in 3 tht Lynn was entirely John's choice, but i also think th idea of her Knowing + deliberately not telling Hoffman is extremely funny. Hoffman cant come 2 th weekly disciple meeting bcuz hes got Cop Business so he misses Lawrence's introduction + Amanda is just like "sure John of course ill tell Mark that we got a new friend :)" and just never does. LOVE that thought

dhgsdkj thank u!!

it Is extremely funny 2 think that she just. knows but refuses to tell Hoffman + THAT'S why Hoffman doesn't know who Lawrence is until he jabs him w the needle + takes off the pig mask lmao omg. just like "oh yeah of course I'll tell Mark we have a new teammate don't worry abt it!" and she Never Does dkjkdsg??

okay but 2 Seriously answer yr question. when I think abt it I always think that like. it wld b pretty hard fr John 2 keep them frm each other given how integral Lawrence's participation is in every game from SAW II onward? 'cause like we know Amanda helps w the kidnapping process + placing them in their traps, which one CLD argue would only mean she wld see them after Lawrence would do his thing but. I feel like she'd be vaguely aware? bc she wld also then have 2 know that he survived his game, given that she helped set it up - we know that she'd AT LEAST know his name.

to elaborate on th idea that only HOFFMAN doesn't know (both bc it's fucking hilarious + actually how I view things happening jdkhfksd), I feel like Amanda + Lawrence's interactions wld be rather limited. in canon, Lawrence becomes a disciple after John "rehabilitates" him or whtever he wants 2 call it, but I feel he'd have to be aware of Amanda, too - both that she is also a disciple + SHE'S th one who helped get him in the bathroom in th first place. as grateful as Lawrence seems to feel toward John + as much as he believes in John's "work," I feel like that wld be smth he'd have to work thru: working side by side w someone who had a direct hand in basically destroying yr life as u knew it. n I feel like Amanda wld know that, n as such she'd want to keep her distance bc she can't predict how this man will act/what he will do, even if he is technically on her side. so like. things wld def be tense btwn them until Lawrence has had some time 2 process his new life + what tht means for him, and until the two of them can have some sort of talk/acknowledgement of that.

though I will say that their roles kind of imply they'd at least see a good bit of each other. Amanda scouts, in a way, helps subdue & bring ppl in, which wld then be brought to Lawrence fr any medical procedures they feel r needed (such as sewing th key behind Michael's eye in II) so it'd definitely be like a "hey did u bring some1?" sort of thing. Mark is muscle of course so like I know he def helped on tht end (I believe Amanda is th one who caught Lawrence in the parking garage but like it wld be SO much funnier if Hoffman was the one crawling around) but IDK if he rly Saw Lawrence bc. Cop Business. so he'd just kinda b like "here u go" n bring ppl to Amanda n then peace out 'cause he's gotta keep tht reputation of Respected Detective. we know he also might've messed w traps themselves as well (like The Rack in III), which wld definitely keep him separate from Lawrence bc Lawrence had No Involvement in designing/setting up traps. tht was strictly a John/Hoffman/Amanda endeavour.

as fr how they'd feel abt each other? it's really dependent on how u view thm as characters. Lawrence, after he becomes a disciple, believes that what John is doing is truly helpful and truly has the capability to change lives; he devotes himself 2 it, shows countless times tht he has complete faith in John + his methods, so much so that John left a tape fr him telling him to look after Jill + to act on his behalf if smth were to happen to her. he calls Lawrence his greatest asset. his trust in John + the Jigsaw legacy is unwavering.

Amanda, however, has been shown several times to act directly against John's beliefs, such as constructing inescapable traps (Kerry) or rigging others' games (Adam). th breakdown she has in III I think showcases the disconnect between her love fr John as a mentor/father figure, and the realization that not only is John entirely hypocritical and doesn't stay true to his own beliefs half th time, he truly has shown no regard fr her safety + has only been using her to further the agenda that was built upon a fragile foundation 2 begin with. u've mentioned this b4 too but John always liked 2 say that if u can anticipate the human mind, then nothing is up 2 chance - which wld mean that he KNEW Xavier might throw Amanda into the Needle Pit to get out of it. he KNEW Daniel was just a fucking kid and was perfectly fine w putting him in very real danger to get back at some1 he felt like needling fr the express purpose of provocation and nothing else. he KNEW Laura, a woman she'd formed a bond w and pretty much swore to protect th minute she woke up and saw her crying in the corner, could begin to seize n choke on her own vomit and die in that house. he knew all of those things, ENCOURAGED the belief that smth was wrong w her because she wasn't "fixed" as he had claimed, and it's so unfortunate that she doesn't realize that sooner (I fully agree that she deserved to lose her shit completely on John. it's what he deserved! it's what SHE deserved!!!) but she still Does before she dies (which, again, I Don't think should've happened. she didn't deserve 2 go out like tht + she deserved so much more of her story being told).

so there's the conflict of beliefs between thm. I think Amanda definitely starts out like Lawrence does, completely devoted + believing every word John says, but thru II we can see that certainty begin to falter n her faith in John is completely shaken by the end. I don't think Lawrence wld Know she felt tht way until after she died, if he ever finds out at all, bc I doubt that's smth she'd want to express. it's not even smth she discusses w John himself until III, in which she's already made up her mind to shoot Lynn as a final act of misguided disobedience. I still think tht Lawrence wld feel fr her in some way, though, bc even b4 he became a disciple he was rather horrified when Sing + Tapp had him sit thru her testimony; his feelings would change on this a lil, bc he'd see it as her rebirth (as she once did too), but I still feel like he'd want 2 like. watch over her a little. not super directly, + not because he felt threatened by her presence or anything like that, but because they're in this together n I'm sure John's told him abt some of the circumstances regarding how she came to be a disciple after her game as well. I feel like he wld definitely be saddened by her passing, bc I feel he'd come 2 respect her at least a bit, but fr him it's like. they have 2 keep moving. John is gone now too, smth I'm sure was probably a pretty huge blow fr Lawrence, and now he has to put his energy into making sure Hoffman stays unaware of him. just in case he has to act on that warning John gave him abt Jill. but he wld still miss Amanda n wld mourn her, to be sure.

I don't think they'd be close or anything like tht. kind of just friendly coworkers who only see each other every once in a while, passing thru the doors of each other's lives with a nod and a wave and maybe a greeting if they're feeling up 2 it. they're not too involved. Amanda can't tell u tht Lawrence's favourite flowers are sunflowers. Lawrence can't tell u tht Amanda's favourite smell is lavender or tht her favourite colour is a deep, almost greyish purple. but they're connected thru John, thru their work, n that still means smth to both of them, at least in some manner. when Amanda dies, Lawrence grieves. Jill pays for her headstone n Lawrence makes sure to bring fresh flowers every once in a while, but he has to hold his head up n keep walking. now tht John's gone, there's work to be done.

and someone's gotta keep an eye on Hoffman.

[angeltrapz]

oosdkk dude im sorry ur mood dropped too.. i hope u feel better soon <3 but like i wld love 2 hear more abt ur thoughts on Art in general bc Boy Is He Interesting, and also a lil more abt Daniel coming out as nonbinary to his dad (whether he knows Eric is trans or not at that moment skjdfhdskf)! + if ur feelin it just more abt Mallick in general ESP cuz we agree that Brit doesn't make it thru V

djhfjdks thank u sm <3

okay Art first. I genuinely wonder abt him so much, something in specific I think abt is that aside frm Amanda (+ Eric, obviously, but talkin abt disciples) Art is one of the only trap victims EVER 2 be tested twice and it’s like... what’s that abt? Why? as u’ve said b4 it rly depends on how you personally view his character: whether he’s a disciple or not. fr me, both options are equally plausible, n honestly I don’t rly confine myself to either; it sorta depends on what I’m feeling/writing. if we’re talking abt art being a disciple, then the Spinecutter not going off (one of my BIGGEST questions) makes total sense, as Hoffman’s side of the trap was never set up to work either, + Jigsaw disciples have a history (aside from Lawrence) of appearing as victims in other tests/traps. if he were not just another pawn and was in fact a disciple himself, then the Spinecutter was never meant to go off - it was there just to make Eric think it COULD go off/make it look convincing to outsiders. which brings me to ANOTHER question: what does Art know abt Eric? does he know anything? what does he think of Eric?

(lil side note: if Art is a disciple, then I kinda wonder if it’s a lil bit of a Hoffman + Lawrence situation where Hoffman didn’t know abt Art either? just bc he looks so shocked when he sees Art’s face fully fr the first time... that could’ve just been acting on Hoffman’s part but IDK. food fr thought)

personally, I feel like Art probably does know a lil bit abt Eric - at the very least, he’d know tht Eric had been previously tested + failed by John’s rules, but then I feel that he wld also know Eric didn’t rly have a chance in his second test. that is why Art trying so fucking hard to keep Eric alive is interesting 2 me: what is his motivation 2 do that? like he’s been told Eric’s basically just there to get Rigg to participate, he doesn’t have any personal obligation or anything like that. sure, the aim is to keep Eric alive + see if Rigg can pass his “test,” but nobody said anything about grabbing a man you barely know around his ankles to keep him frm hanging himself w a noose made of chains. nobody said anything abt speaking to him so softly, not even raising your voice beyond saying “hey,” and asking him do you understand? when you tell him to keep still and prevent him frm killing his counterpart (which, if Art is a disciple, he knows it won’t, but he still speaks to Eric so softly, so compassionately, doesn’t he?)

nobody said anything abt grabbing him around the waist and steadying him again after being punched by said man. but Art does that. he stabilizes Eric’s feet on the ice as best he can and he keeps his hips straight and he basically says “look, we’re all stuck here, you need to keep it together ‘til that clock counts down if you want us to live, but I’m giving you a choice,” and he presses the gun w the single bullet into Eric’s hands and tells him it’s up to him. nobody said Art had to care but he does, I think, and it’s just like. he really didn’t have to keep Eric alive over the course of Rigg’s test. he didn’t. but he did and I just,, where does it come from? why does he care? this is even going beyond the fact that we’ve talked abt them being together after their test in a scenario where they both survive - I just think that Art at his core is a very stubborn but very compassionate person, whether he wants 2 be or not. like he HAS to know that kind of involvement cld prove to be extremely detrimental but he cares. I feel like that says a lot abt him (even if he does call Eric an asshole a couple times while doing it,,).

plus I also just. I think his reason for being tested (as it seems to be in most cases) is extremely flimsy. he was doing his job. he’s a LAWYER. often times it has nothing 2 do w personal feelings; they’re there to do their job and sometimes, unfortunately, that is defending possibly reprehensible people (in cases like Rex’s & Ivan’s). + John was already upset w him regarding their argument abt the urban renewal group so like it just feels So Very Petty, y’know?? even in the scenario where he IS a disciple, testing him twice seems entirely like John having a personal vendetta against him. Amanda is the only other person to be tested twice aside from Eric, so like. what. is that abt Mr. Kramer.

like I’ve said b4 in dms one could argue that Art is grey morally, bc we never rly see anything of him outside of flashbacks + acting as a test controller in IV, esp given that he... rly doesn’t seem too bothered abt it all? which is fair. but I also feel like the concern he shows towards Eric is smth to be considered as well.

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+ YESS NONBINARY DANIEL I know I’ve mentioned it b4 but for reference, I read Daniel as masc nonbinary (he/they)! so I feel like Daniel wld b pretty comfortable w his identity, he’s never rly had a reason not to be (it’s rly anyone’s guess here tho bc we never see Eric + Daniel + Kate... as a family unit, for obvious reasons), so I feel like he’s vry chill abt it? and in the scenario where Eric survives n is dating Adam, I feel like Daniel wld talk 2 him abt it first (Adam is an adult they quickly come to trust + he’s vocal abt being trans himself so there’s that added layer of understanding - other than his mom maybe Adam might b the first person they come out 2). they’re just kinda like “so I wanna tell my dad I’m nonbinary but like I’ve literally never thought abt coming out what do I do” and Adam’s just like. Aha. bc he knows Eric is Also Trans so like, he doesn’t tell Daniel that bc it’s not his info to share, but he’s definitely like “oh it’ll totally be fine. trust me you have no reason to worry” so Daniel’s just like Okay. I Got This

+ I know I mentioned this in dms but Daniel wld absolutely wear those floral ripped hem skirts over jeans, so I feel like on one of his visits to his dad’s, he just. wears that combined w a completely random niche graphic tee he bought when shopping w Adam (I adore this hc n I am Holding Onto It) n is just like. not super open abt it bc he doesn’t know what to expect? he just kinda waits fr Eric to comment on it but when he doesn’t, Daniel gets nervous n is like “do I look okay?” and Eric’s rly chill abt it, like “yeah! it looks vry cool, vry alternative.” n like Daniel is relieved, of course, but also he’s just like God Pls Say Something so he just comes out w it like “okay this is not working. I’m nonbinary.”

and he’s COMPLETELY SHOCKED when Eric is just like “oh why didn’t u say so? do u have a different name u wanna go by? is Daniel still okay?” bc he wasn’t sure how much Eric knew, so he’s just like “uh no Daniel is still good, he/they pronouns though” and Eric’s just like alright cool but internally Daniel’s just like ??????

n THAT is when Eric asks him 2 come sit out on th front steps w him n is just like. “I don’t think I ever told u this but I’m trans. I transitioned during training in my early 20s” n Daniel is nodding while internally he’s like Adam I’m gonna throttle u. he worked himself up fr NOTHING. he just kinda laughs abt it and Eric is like “are u good?” ‘cause he’s a lil worried but then Daniel just smiles and is like “yeah I’m fine! just realizing I had nothing 2 be worried abt” and it’s a rly good moment fr them. they sit out there together talking abt their experiences for quite a while n at some point Adam steps outside 2 find them deep in conversation + he just smiles n goes back inside bc he cares abt them both so much and seeing them talk like that makes him so 💞💞 (Eric is SO PROUD u can see it on his face)

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ohhh gosh Mallick,,, I spend a lot of time thinking abt him actually. he’s just one of those characters I feel vry connected to (me 🤝 Mallick: Ambiguous Disorder 💕) n one I got surprisingly attached to? hello (he IS one of my f/os)

I feel like Mallick is a very lonely person at his core. the way he sort of clings to Brit (w out the whole like. adrenaline of being in very very real danger w ppl trying to kill u SEVERAL TIMES) somewhat confirms this fr me. this is someone who has no reason to look out fr him, no reason to keep protecting him when their fellow captives hit him over th head w a club or attempt to push him into a bathtub to ELECTROCUTE him, but she keeps doing it and he’s just. in awe of it a little bit? ‘cause she could just let Charles knock him tf out or let Luba push him in but she fights for him, some1 she has no obligation to n met fr the first time literally when they woke up.

the moment they share b4 they stick their arms into the saws to activate the 10 Pints of Sacrifice is so very vulnerable and maybe even a little tender. yes he calls her a monster, yes she calls him one back, neither of them deny it. it’s an admission and an acceptance. they’re monsters, sure, fine, okay. but they are monsters and they are in this together. Brit tells Mallick it’s okay when he says he can’t do this alone. she says okay, okay, it’s okay, we’ll go together. and they help each other secure their tourniquets and they stick their hands in together bc it’s the two of them, literally hand in hand, fighting for their lives n for each other n they’re in so so much pain but they are doing it TOGETHER. I lose it thinking abt it!!! they even have a head bonk moment!!! I very much feel like it has some cinematic parallels to Adam & Lawrence’s moment in SAW 2004!!!!

+ as u mentioned, we both share the thought that Brit likely died since she wasn’t present at Bobby’s meetings, and. I want to touch on how fucking despondent and lost Mallick looks when we see him again in 3D. lights on but no one’s home. I feel like for Mallick, losing Brit was losing the first chance at a real connection he’s had in god knows how long - and for him, that’s just very shattering. he’s been thru hell, he’s watched three people die right in front of him, he sawed his ARM IN HALF, n the person he went through all of that with didn’t make it. but he did. and I feel like for Mallick that’s just like... he doesn’t understand it. but he feels even lonelier than he ever has b4 because the One Person who was there w him thru it all, the one person who could ever possibly understand what happened that night, is gone.

the Mallick we see in V would NEVER sit down n willingly listen to Bobby Dagen’s bullshit abt loving yr scars n taking pride in the fact u survived. he wld hate that man with a passion n I am very much sure of this. the fact that he’s sitting in that chair looking numb and glassy-eyed and silent? Mallick is trying to find some1 to connect to, find a place where maybe he belongs. trying to fill that hole that losing Brit made. why else wld he be sitting there, listening to someone he would ordinarily tell to shove his self-love bullshit up his ass? he’s lost. he’s just trying to keep his head above water and find a way to shore even though everything in him is fighting not to. he’s adrift without her.

+ ALTERNATIVELY, bc the reality of that is just. crushing n maybe not where I needed 2 go, in the scenario where Brit survived + just doesn’t want to put up w Bobby’s bullshit, I imagine them to actually move in together after a lil bit of time getting 2 know each other better w out the pressure of “oh god we’re gonna die.” she kinda helps him build up a sense of self-worth bc GOD it’s practically non-existent n thinking abt possible reasons why makes me sad. she’s definitely just like “no, you do deserve to be cared for and you deserve help when you need it, you deserve good things n to be happy.” she just kinds shuts it down while still making sure to talk 2 him abt WHY he feels that way (she’s not dismissing, but she’s trying to nip it in th bud) n Mallick is just like. huh. bc no one’s really done that fr him before. but it rly does end up helping in the long run, even if it is a very slow pace toward actually getting 2 a place where he recognizes his own worth + realizes he deserves all the things he wants Brit 2 have too. they’re there for each other thru thick n thin and if they made it thru their game, they can make it thru anything.