#this movie and elphaba especially mean so much to me

[dianasprnce]

jon’s entire speech was extremely heartfelt, but this portion of it in particular made me very emotional because it perfectly puts into words why wicked is so important and why it means so much to so many people

[the-clock-of-the-time-dragon]

Really loving the fact the Wicked movie homed in so much on the motif of getting "your heart's desire" — Elphaba telling Nessa when they were kids that the Wizard would grant it to people when they meet him; Glinda writing that sweet note to Elphie telling her she hopes she gets it; etc. — and how they really had the Wizard ask Elphaba specifically if having Glinda by her side is what her heart desires. It's interesting that she thinks about it and then talks herself out of it by prioritizing her politics — because of course she would, Activist Sapphic™ as she always is — but the reason it's on my mind is because of Act 2.

[spoilers]

The Wizard gets a second shot at tempting Elphaba to join him, and it's frankly amazing in retrospect that in the musical he didn't try to leverage Glinda in that sequence. Y'know, "hey, and Glinda is here with me, if we rehabilitate you then you can have your friend with you again", something like that. It's a no-brainer. I can't even really imagine that they'd omit that in the film version — especially not now that they've put such heavy emphasis on this thematic motif.

Part 1 Elphaba, when asked if her heart's desire would be to live with Glinda in Emerald City, said no — but if the same question gets asked AGAIN, in Part 2, now that she's seen and felt the consequences of her choices before... Well, obviously she'll still end up ultinately saying no and opposing the Wizard till the day she dies — but I suspect that with all the ways this theme will have been set up by that point (not only with the first film, but with everything in Part 2 that will further develop it: Thank Goodness is just a giant explication on this theme of heart's desire, what it means, etc.), Elphie will be specifically tempted with the proposition of getting to be where Glinda is. Which — true to the original show — she accepts! Because that's what her heart truly desires, and always did. Only once she finds Dr. Dillamond (and then Fiyero reveals his own unexpected heart's desire as well of course!) is she once again forced by conscience and circumstance to deny herself the desire to reunite with Glinda — because as much as she loves her, Glinda chose wrong, and their desires can never truly be fulfilled until that wrong is righted and the false happiness that ruled them — the Wizard — is gone.

Glinda is "behind the curtain" with the Wizard, and Elphaba never finds a way to bring it down and set her (and all of Oz) free. Glinda does. But she's only able to "bring down the curtain" once her heart's desire — her Elphie — has already been taken away from her forever. Glinda has always relied on hope, on optimism — the very thing the Wizard manipulates to get power over people — so only once all her hopes are dashed, and she's accepted that all she ever wanted is dead and gone, is she finally able to break the Wizard's figurative spell over her and finally take the leap, take hold of her own power, and do what Elphaba wanted her to do all along.

[atalana]

actually you know what, while this isn't something i had an issue with in the movie (and honestly the costume designers for wicked did an incredible job), i do wanna talk about elphaba's stage dress bc i think the tumblr lesbians will have fun with it!

so like i made a post a bit ago about how i literally only have one gripe with the wicked movie and it's that every glinda outfit was pink (probably for marketing purposes, but stage glinda is incredibly varied in her colours, and she only has one pink dress, alongside a white, a yellow, a green, and two blue dresses)

but i didn't really go into how elphaba is, in her own way, just as colourful!

because if you read interviews with susan hilferty, the original costume designer for wicked, she talks about how the primary thing she wanted to play with was the idea of these two as earth and sky

glinda comes from the sky, both literally in terms of her first scene being in the bubble, but also that is who she is as a person, bright, airy, expansive. she gets so many colours because she represents the rainbow, and whenever her and elphie are put in contrast, she gets the light side as is fitting for the show

(i did mention this in my glinda post too, but in the show the school colours for shiz are blue and white, which they do conform to, but while every other student is wearing blue and white stripes, glinda is dressed entirely in white and elphie entirely in blue)

but to the point of this post! you then get elphaba as earth. i've seen posts around about how elphie's magic is so strong because she's more connected to the world around her, and that's not only true but something worked into her costume design! hilferty talks about mica and geodes being an inspiration here, elphaba comes from the earth and is an intrinsic part of it, she may not look like much from the outside but she holds an incredible beauty inside

and so her dress is designed to look black from a distance, but it's actually not! it's dozens of layers of different dark colours, that shine and catch the light in different ways

(these dresses are also all slightly different because she mentions they made each dress for the actress who would wear it, each one is unique to fit how that person plays elphaba)

it also to me represents her public vs private image, people like glinda who've seen those layers to her knows she's a beautiful person inside and out, know how she could be seen and loved and appreciated for her complexity and depth, but no one looks that closely. they see from a distance, and they see what they want to see - a wicked witch in a black dress

(especially poignant given how colourful oz is and how no one else, no one 'good', ever wears black)

and i genuinely do love the details put into elphie's movie design, i'm a big fan of victorian style costuming and she's got a lot of those elements (plus the amount of detail and complexity put into dresses that are entirely black should be commended)

but i wanna show off her coloured dress too, because it means the world to me

[contrarian-grammarian]

Glindafication, or the Trap of Persona in Wicked (2024)

So I recently saw Wicked for the second time in theaters (this week). As a longtime fan of the musical, I think I'm one of the few people who has always loved the love triangle in it... actually, I think I'm one of the few people in fandom spaces who is willing to be open about loving love triangles when all of the characters are narratively and/or emotionally connected. Idk what to tell you other than I love mess and when shipping echoes the themes of the text.

Anyway, that's a longwinded way of saying that while the movie adaptation didn't make many changes to the story (including not adding a lot of extra Fiyero/Elphaba scenes, which I thought they might given how much that ship drives the plot in Act 2), I thought it highlighted/made me realize a number of things about Elphaba, Glinda, and especially Fiyero that I think are both really interesting character moments and foreshadow their eventual arcs in Act 2. (Spoilers for all of Act 1 below).

:readmore:

Most of this character analysis is coming from one scene that really stood out to me in the film, even though it is basically unchanged from the musical. It's a very small moment between Elphaba and Fiyero, right after 'Popular' (though I think we can assume some time has passed in the actual timeline) and right before Dr. Dillamond is fired. Elphaba is practicing her hair tossing that she's learned from Glinda, and the camera cuts to Fiyero, watching her with a slight smirk, who then says: "You've been Galindafied." Pause. "You don't need to do that."

I didn't really notice this on my first watch--like I said, it's almost the exact same dialogue as in the musical--but it did stand out to me on my second watch because of a few other acting choices for F & E that I will point out later. But on my second watch, I was like, "Wait... what do you mean, 'Galindafied' (derogatory)?" Dude, that's your girlfriend?

In Act 1 of the musical, Fiyero presents way more sincerely as a male version of Glinda. He makes a much ruder comment about Elphaba in their first meeting, and (at least in the stage versions I've seen) really seems settled into his playboy persona in 'Dancing Through Life.' However, in the movie, I think it becomes clearer earlier on (due to the sincere interest displayed in his and Elphaba's first meeting, as well as some other small acting choices during his first meeting with Galinda) that Movie!Fiyero does not actually like fakeness. Which means he doesn't like himself, because he knows how fake he is.

I think in Fiyero's mind, he is two people: Fake Fiyero, who is selfish and shallow and stupid and hot, and Real Fiyero, who knows that Fake Fiyero sucks and it's all a bullshit cover to make his life easier. And Real Fiyero is onto Galinda in a heartbeat--at least, the version that he first sees of her, which I'm sure he considers Fake Galinda. In Fiyero's mind--as seen when he compliments her machinations with Boq and Nessa--Fake Galinda is selfish and shallow and manipulative and hot. And he thinks Fake Fiyero and Fake Galinda "deserve each other" (derogatory).

Interestingly, I think Glinda also knows about Fake Glinda and Fake Fiyero... but she thinks they're the best versions of themselves. In Glinda's mind, everyone is supposed to wear their shiniest, most perfect versions of themselves as a mask in front of their real face. It's why 'Popular' happens right after she connects with Elphaba--in Glinda's mind, the best thing for Elphie is to develop her mask, so that everyone else can learn to love her too. Glinda is aware that it's possible to love the person under the mask--that's how she feels about Elphie and Fiyero ("I don't even think he's perfect anymore and I still want him!") but the mask is preferred.

To tie this back to the Galindafied scene, I think Fiyero sees someone doing what he thinks is the height of bravery at the OzDust dance--being themselves, unabashedly, in front of everyone despite the mockery. "I'll say this for her, she doesn't give a twit what anyone else thinks," is, in Fiyero's mind, the best thing a person can be. He's obviously misreading how much Elphaba does care, because I don't think Fiyero can fathom how somebody could care and still do the brave/embarrassing thing, but when Glinda explains that Elphaba really does care, he becomes even more impressed. And when Glinda joins Elphaba and then they both run out of the ball together, you can tell by the look on his face that he's just been impressed by both of them.

And then, it's the next time he's alone with Elphaba, and she's doing Fake Galinda's hair toss. And Fiyero's like, goddammit. He thought that Elphaba and Glinda might both be real, and now Glinda's making Elphaba into a Fake Elphie. And he's done the fake persona thing himself, he's going to keep doing it, but he really doesn't want Elphaba to think that's her only solution. That Fake Glinda is better than Real Elphaba, and she needs to change for people to like her.

In the musical, "You don't need to do that" always kinda came across to me as a "you're not like other girls" line, but Movie!Fiyero's delivery comes across as both very sincere and something of a warning. He's willing to play a fake person, and he's willing to date a fake person, but he knows perfectly well that being fake sucks, and he doesn't want Elphaba to do it. And Real Fiyero, who's not stupid or selfish, follows this advice with another comment that could never come from Fake Fiyero: "C'mon, let's get to class." And Elphaba gives a small smile before following him. Because, for the first time, I think she appreciates that Real Fiyero exists, and that he would stand up for Real Elphaba.

And speaking of Elphaba... Once she becomes friends with Glinda and Fiyero, Elphaba basically ignores the false front that Glinda and Fiyero put up and judges them based on how they see themselves. Like Fiyero, she prefers their real selves to their fake shells, but she accepts all of the parts of them that they accept. Which is why she is so much more patient with Glinda than Fiyero. She sees that Glinda is both much happier and more integrated into her mask role, and sees that it still allows her to have a basically good heart. (It's also why she's so accepting of Glinda's decision not to leave with her in the end.) She prefers the real, genuinely kind Glinda, but she can accept Fake Glinda as a protective covering.

But Elphaba sees that Fiyero is deeply unhappy with his persona, and tells him--as he just told her--you don't have to do that. "No, you're not. Otherwise you wouldn't be so unhappy." She knows that it's harder to go through life as a Real Person, but it is possible--and now she's learned that it's even possible to have friends.

At the same time, Elphaba, who otherwise is so clear about her friends' true selves, is still incredibly blind about her own worth and identity. And if she can't (or chooses not to) be Galindafied, she'll have to build a different type of mask/persona to protect herself from getting hurt. And she chooses the role of the lonely outsider who would never even be considered as an option for romantic love. "He could be that boy... but I'm not that girl." That ends up being her Fake Elphaba... one that I'm very interested to see how she sheds in Act 2.

[gveret-fic]

Your Elphaba soul post got me thinking about just how different bookverse Elphie is vs movieverse Elphie. I don't think movie!Elphie would ever say she doesn't have a soul! I think it would be utterly offensive to her. Maybe I'm just not in the right fandom circles, but it seems like no one talks about how, dare-i-say woobified movie!Elphie is. I would love to hear your take. I've seen Cynthia saying they wanted to give Elphaba some innocence to lose so that her character arc would mean something, but it also just kind of seems like the easy way out to me? I know the musical and the book are two very different animals, but I think even in the musical Elphaba is a lot more Daria-esque than movie!Elphie is.

Oh they're wildly wildly different. It's the first thing I noticed when I watched the movie, and at first it put me off Cynthia Erivo's performance. Her Elphie is sweet and quiet and gentle where book Elphie is abrasive and rude and loud; poised and dignified and intensely feminine vs off-putting and strange and gender non-conforming (and intersex); open and vulnerable and easily lovable vs provocative and difficult with defense mechanisms for miles. It's basically a completely different character who's unfortunately found herself in similar circumstances.

It took a second watch to let go of my expectations for the character and just let myself fall in love with this version of her on her own terms. Of course, she's much more easily digestible, with more broad audience appeal, and this inevitably removes some of her complexity. Woobified is a good term for it; she really is just the most huggable sweetie pie put through hell through no fault of her own. But Erivo really portrays her with so much pathos and genuine heart and charisma that you just can't not love her. I am not immune to big puppy dog eyes and a bright gap-toothed smile and a warm little chuckle at Galinda's antics lol.

I'd say the musical characterization is equally simplified/homogenized for broad appeal. Maybe she's a little more generally sarcastic and standoffish in the musical, but I kinda like this more genuine version, I think Erivo's Elphaba seems more heartfelt, especially in her relationship with Galinda. You can see this particularly in Popular; in both versions this is the comic relief song, but in the musical Elphie is generally long-suffering and uninterested while in the movie she's an active participant and genuinely seems to be having fun playing along, mimicking Galinda and giggling like a school girl. It's really cute.

Also there's the issue of race. In the musical there hasn't been a full-time Black Elphaba until now with Lencia Kebede, who was of course cast only after Erivo. I think it's easy to see why they'd choose to make the first major depiction of Elphaba by a Black actress more unimpeachably lovable. Of course they shouldn't have to, but that in itself is a commentary on its own.

Unrelated but a major improvement of the movie over the musical is the handling of Nessa and her disability, which was just atrocious in the musical. In the movie they make it a point that pushing a wheelchair without permission is a serious violation, and in general give Nessa a bit more personhood and genuine chemistry with Elphie.

It's never gonna be as interesting and complex and political as the book, but for what it is I think the movie did a fantastic job and had a lot of love and care obviously put into it. Bookverse Elphie is still my number 1 though.

[merinathropp]

okay here's my massive and hugely late Wicked movie review in case anyone is still interested alksdjalskdjaldk bless you all for your patience

Glinda - 11/10 no notes I am besotted. I was so wrong about Ariana Grande, she was pitch perfect and melted into the character. She played Glinda with all the nuance she desperately deserves, she was SO MUCH MORE than just a mean blonde girl, she had a sort of 'spoiled rich girl innocence' and genuine sweetness in everything she did. And the RANGE!!!! Her expressions during No One Mourns get the award for First Thing To Make Me Weep, there was SUCH pain and bitter resolve underneath her composure. Ariana the woman that you are.

Fiyero - I feel like Fiyero is a character who only works if you make him a bit camp and silly and absolutely commit to The Flynn Rider-ness of it all, and Jonathan ABSOLUTELY DID. He was outrageously charming. Love that he flirted with girls and boys and even members of staff, really drove home the whole 'scandalous reputation' thing. Equal opportunity Fiyero Flirting. What a time to be alive.

Elphaba - Okay this is where things get complicated. I really struggled with Cynthia's Elphaba. I totally respect that she wanted to take the character in a different direction, making her more vulnerable and soft-spoken and sad.

It just didn't work for me, because it stripped Elphaba of all the things I love about her in the show: her fierceness, her rage, her explosive nature, her terrible temper. I just adore how messy she is. And I missed that in the movie.

I've seen people talk a lot about how Cynthia's Elphaba is 'internal' - she doesn't let her emotions show, she keeps it all on the inside. Again, this was a choice that really bugged me. So many classic Elphaba Reaction Moments were reduced to Cynthia just...looking?? It drove me mad.

Her vocals were out of this world. She looked absolutely stunning. But I just can't connect with this new version of Elphaba as much as her stage counterpart.

Sets, Props & Costumes - GORGEOUS. A literal feast for the eyes, this is a sumptuous movie and I kept wanting to pause the frame just to take in all the little details. Everything felt so distinctly Ozian, all the bizarre textures and fabric choices and steampunk Victorian vibe...ughhhh obsessed.

Screenplay - I think my overall take for this section is: The additions they made were fun, but if I'd been in charge, I would have prioritised completely different things lol.

With the 3 hour runtime, I guess I just assumed they would put all that glorious extra time towards Gelphie and Fiyeraba? Especially because there are SO many juicy cut scenes from older versions of Wicked (e.g. workshops, San Francisco tryouts), and this was an amazing opportunity to bring some of that stuff back.

But instead, we got like...A Sentimental Man dance break, more dialogue with the Wizard, a big action sequence with Elphaba and Glinda escaping the guards, a new song about the ancient sorcerers of Oz, loads of Pfannee and Shenshen dialogue etc.

Again, I don't think any of this stuff was bad! But I wish the extra time had gone towards expanding the character relationships rather than like...The Wizard Will Dance For You Now lol.

(Not to mention they cut some of Fiyeraba's dialogue - a BIZARRE choice, I scream into the void etc, these two have such limited time together already, Why Would You Cut More Of It)

Misc Things I Loved - Galinda and Elphaba's new little 'signature wave' for each other, based on their Ozdust dance. Destroyed me emotionally every time they used it.

- Popular was a MASTERCLASS in adapting a musical theatre number to screen, I was so worried it would be Too Much but they pitched it just right. It was hysterically funny but still sincere, Galinda was very much 'kid who's had too much sugar at 3am' and she was so DRAMATIC and silly and sweet, I'm besotted fjhakjsdhaksjda.

- ALL THE CHOREOGRAPHY. Bursting with energy, highly musical. I found myself wishing the camera would slow down / zoom out a bit, so we could enjoy it more fully.

- Doctor Dillamond actually saying to Elphaba that she has a friend in him, and gently offering her one of his hooves to so they could 'shake hands'. My friend and I were both like 'we did not expect to get emotional about the goat professor, yet here we are'.

- Fiyero 'yeah I ate grass as a child' Tigelaar. he absolutely did. not a single doubt in my mind.

- The Wizard, trying to convince Elphaba to join him: uhhhh you can even bring your...friend...with you! (I was literally like HAHAHA HE GETS IT oh no. he gets it. oh no. I just loved that he seizes immediately on the one thing that might sweeten the deal for Elphaba, which is having Glinda with her.)

[deeplyshalllow]

Hello! I am very much enjoying your character analyses- Fiyero especially. He’s probably my favorite character after Elphaba, and I like that the movie has made him kinder than what we see in the show (no hate on the show obviously) . One thing I haven’t seen really talked about is his brief interactions with Boq. During their first scene together, I expected Fiyero to be a bit of a jerk towards Boq since he’s a dork in a sweet way. However, Fiyero treats him like a genuine potential friend. I like the idea of Fiyero being a character that brings people together in a sense. I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on this? It’s nice to see people recognizing the depth these characters have.

Hi, thanks! I’m so glad you’re enjoying my stuff! I’m enjoying writing it :D

I must say the Boq stuff took me by surprise in the film as well. Pre movie, I’ve always really pictured the Foq relationship to be one of not outright hatred, but kind of brimming resentment: Boq is bitter that this hot prince just comes in and charms his Galinda, and Fiyero is very aware of Boq’s feelings towards his girlfriend and is some degree of condescending/annoyed about it.

But you’re right, in the movie it’s very different. It’s highlighted even more in the screenplay:

As for why? I think yes, a lot of it is because he’s just genuinely shown as all around kind in the movie, which in itself is a bit of a contrast to the people around him – who we know aren’t very nice to people who are different. I guess it’s also a bit of foreshadowing that he’s someone who will care about the plight of people/Animals who are othered.

I’m sure there is a degree of him ensuring that everyone loves his persona, but he doesn’t really need to make sure anyone but the “acceptable” people like him. I wonder, as well, if he, at least subconsciously, wants people he’s friends with to not just like him because of his good looks and reputation?

So yeah, in a world where Oz is busy valuing one type of intelligent creature over others, I think you’re right in that it’s telling that Fiyero is instead shown as bringing everyone together.

I'm very curious to know if this will mean we end up with some scarecrow and tinman scenes.

[gelphielover69]

I have many grievances when it comes to the wicked movie but one of my biggest ones is some of the storytelling elements from the stage show that they took out. ESPECIALLY THE UNLIMITED THEME.

I already think the extra unlimited section in defying gravity is awful and unnecessary because it gets in the way of the progression of that theme from Elphaba to Glinda BUT. THE FACT THEY TOOK OUT THE UNLIMITED CUE THAT PLAYS RIGHT AFTER NO ONE MOURNS THE WICKED. WHYYYYYY

It kinda flows past you when you’re watching it live and it is sometimes difficult to hear on bootlegs but it plays right when Glinda is saying she has much to attend to with the wizard’s “unexpected” departure and it MEANS SO MUCH.

The progression from Elphaba thinking she and the Wizard would be unlimited together to knowing she and Glinda would be unlimited together to accepting the fact there’s nothing more she can do and that Glinda is the unlimited one and in the end (chronologically) Glinda stepping up into that position for her is just such a big aspect of their story and dynamic and the fact the movie took it out is so :/

And I get it. They needed a different score for the movie and couldn’t keep every musical cue from the musical but that one was just so important and the fact it got taken away upsets me so much.

[fandomshatepeopleofcolor]

WICKED SPOILERS AHEAD

Okay so I’ve never seen the stage musical nor read the books so maybe I’m completely wrong about this and if so, I apologize in advance, but like, can we talk about Wicked for a second? Specifically its racism metaphor? This is gonna be a bit long, I apologize! 😅

So, don’t get me wrong, I love this movie and I think it’s a really visually and musically stunning masterpiece BUT!!

I have a bit of a problem with the fact that it’s a story about racism/fascism except that it’s animals that are victims of it when there was sooo much potential with the idea of having a race of green-skinned people with magical abilities that Elphaba could have been a part of (instead of the whole cheating and green elixir thing).

I usually dislike stories like this where authors create fictional peoples/beings being victims of oppression instead of writing about actual characters of the global majority, but it’s generally because 1. The characters in question are played by White people (cf. Hunger Games, Carnival Row). 2. The reason why they’re marginalized is usually understandable (cf. Zootopia), like it’s usually because they were actually murderous a long time ago or because they tried to harm people in some way. And 3. The authors of those stories are usually White people (but there are always exceptions) who don’t understand how racism, colonialism and oppression work and tend to romanticize those things for their Forbidden Love Stories or whatever and also because they see real people’s oppression as entertainment or writing prompts.

But here for once I thought it was pretty well-written. It’s very clearly established that the victims of the system are being marginalized due to the lies that have been spread about them and the blame that has been unfairly placed on them for the Ozians’ problems. I just think it would have been better if the animals had been replaced by green-skinned people. I know, I know! It’s been done so many times but bare with me PLEASE!

Imagine if Elphaba hadn’t been the only green-skinned woman in the land of Oz and she was actually part of a race of green-skinned people who used to have magical powers, have been stripped of them and are now being blamed for the issues in the country? The reason why they no longer have magical powers is because Ozians stole their magic because they believed that the green-skinned people were dangerous (which was of course completely false because they were always benevolent but the people behind their oppression have always lied about them). It would have been a really nice metaphor of colonialism (the colonizers taking all the resources from the people they’ve colonized, demonizing them and trying to strip them of their humanity, dignity and identity)!

And so for centuries they thought that the green-skinned people no longer had any magic until this green woman with magical powers shows up and shakes up the system! I was talking about this with a friend who said that all of this would have not been very “subtle” and I was like yeah?? I mean, why would you be subtle for a story about fascism? Even if it’s fantasy racism, the point is to make people think, not purely entertain them (unless you’re one of those bored White authors who don’t have enough imagination ugh… Reminds me of the video where a white woman talks about her book and gleefully mentions how it was about forced depopulation and residential schools… Like, she was literally smiling while talking about it)

With a race of green-skinned people with magic especially, I’m reminded of how during colonization, European people thought African people were “evil” and were practicing sorcery and worshiping demons because they didn’t understand their religions nor wanted to (and thus the term “Black Magic” was created)! It would have been interesting to explore this in the movie!

And how cool would it have been to reveal that not only are the Wizard and his sidekicks impostors but the green-skinned people were actually the original Ozians before the colonizers took over, which is why Elphaba was able to read the ancient language of the Grimory and use its magic and not the wizard? I think that if they had just replaced the animal characters with green-skinned people, the movie would have been the exact same if not better or even perfect and it would have made more sense to see Elphaba finding her people at Shiz for a while before having to become the Witch of the West because of the wizard’s shenanigans.

In my opinion, stories about fantasy racism aren’t inherently bad, it just depends on the way they’re written and the Wicked franchise was a missed opportunity… Unless I’m completely wrong and Part 2 is exactly about all of this lol! I don’t know anything about Part 2 but I have a feeling it could be something close to this, so maybe I’ll end up looking like a complete fool but I just really needed to get all of this out of my chest! 😂

Hey sorry I left your ask in her for ten days!!! I have been really busy with caring for my elderly parents and taking them to appointments and work ofc.

So ok I LOVE your alternate version of Wicked!!! And I agree it would have been much better. But I really don't think that part 2 is going that way sorry. I'm currently rereading the book and while its got really great characterization and vivid imagery you're right it misses a big opportunity.

That's the problem with lots of white people denying that there is a racism problem in fandom though. Like stories about colonization/oppressive stories are compelling but white people tell them and warp them to make a white person the savior instead of the oppressor. I think that's why I love star trek so much tbh. Like yeah its got its problems but they continue to push the envelope with putting poc in the spotlight. Which is vastly different from star wars because it only imagines white people as the chosen ones or the saviors.

Sorry about the tangent!!!

Please come by and talk to us some more! I haven't seen wicked in theaters and i don't think I'm going to be able to. (p broke right now lol). But I am rereading the book and its reminding me that although this book blew me away 20+ years ago now its evident that they missed a golden opportunity to really talk about racism/colonization/oppressive systems properly.

mod ali

[apollosdreams]

twitter sucks, yes, but i also wish people here would think more critically every now and then about media... fandom spaces on tumblr have never felt like a safe space (*for me a black woman) because criticism is usually dismissed as an overreation. two things can be true: western media constantly masculanizes dark skinned black women and with elphie being played by a black woman in the new movie, people are allowed to raise their brows at fanart of her looking more masculine than she canonically dresses especially because the art was reposted there without the context of it being for an AU fanfic. it's ALSO TRUE that the art is beautiful and there's nothing wrong with artists making art that isn't canon typical, way fewer people would have cared if the reposter had given that context initially, but even so I don't think it's okay to dismiss black fans being critical of art or protective of characters as hate.

(this isn't in anyway hate towards you or the other artist, you're both incredibly talented.)

Hello OP! You're completely valid and right! I understand where you're coming from, i absolutely see that tendency in art spaces, I also see a tendency of people immediately brushing off black characters as aggressive as well. It's also terrible that you are unable to have a safe space because of people on socmed lacking any media literacy AND empathy. I'm fortunate that I haven't met that type of reaction before as a colored person myself.

Thank you for the kind words by the way and I agree it should be addressed, I personally see Elphaba as a very androgynous character cause I myself am androgynous and have mostly read her as androgynous, I was just drawing her in a dress a few minutes ago 😭 (which is not to be made as an excuse). Thank you for bringing that up and now I'm realizing that yeah, they (dark skinned black women) actually are made more masculine than usual, whether made in an effort to perpetuate that stereotype or not! I'm hoping to bring more diversity to my work soon as well.

I see where you're getting at and the thing that sucks the most with what happened on twitter is the fact that they reposted it without permission! And then people practically started hating masc headcannons like a freight train! But besides that, I absolutely see what you mean and my initial comment or reaction was to never shun away black fans or be critical of them. I hope I cleared up what I meant!

Out of topic though, I personally have a tendency to draw characters in a masculine way, this is why i actually haven't posted much of Glinda art pieces because it's really hard for me 😭 I'm still studying my models and characters! I don't wanna post an art of Glinda and it just falls short cause I couldn't capture their essence well.

Again thank you op and I apologize for the long reply 😭

[lookingfts]

My totally unqualified opinions of Wicked

Well I went to Wicked for JB and he did not disappoint. That man is fucking charming. My mom swooned for him and now wants to watch Bridgerton (she's never seen it).

I think most of the scenes he was in are things I've already seen in trailers or BTS. Which is to say, I would have been happy to watch him a whole lot more. But every scene he's in, I absolutely loved him. I don't think the role of Fiyero shows much of his emotional range and depth (I mean, compared to what we've seen him do as Anthony), but I think that's just due to the actual amount of time he's in it. But obviously he sounds amazing in the musical numbers, I loved watching him sing and dance and enjoying this other side of him. And his smolder is just unmatched.

Some light spoilers, but not much. Other random thoughts:

Costumes, 1000. I wanted all the clothes, especially Michelle Yeoh's coats.

Set design, very cool. Knowing how much of that was practical made me enjoy it more. Everything feels pretty immersive.

I'm not a musical theater fan, and I guess every musical has those songs that are like...eh, I could skip this. But I loved Dancing Through Life and Defying Gravity, and a few of the other smaller numbers.

It was way too goddamn long, but so is every big-budget movie these days. I think a lot of what could have been cut were musical numbers, but of course you have to include them if you're trying to adapt a popular show. And a few other scenes that just felt long. Overall though I thought the pacing was good, there was just a stretch in the third act that I got a little restless.

Cynthia, holy shit. I got chills several times when she sang. Also, as my mom said, Elphaba just cool and you would want to hang out with her.

Cynthia and Ariana have great chemistry together. Galinda is way over the top but she made me laugh quite a bit. If the central thread is their friendship, I think they really make that work.

Side characters are all great but most of them have so little screen time that they don't feel integral to the story yet - perhaps in part 2.

So, if you want to see it, I think it's very enjoyable! People clapped in my theater. I was happy I went. Will definitely see Part 2, and would probably rewatch Part 1, I imagine there are a lot of details I missed on first watch.

[facelessghouldmine]

I’m back, I’m stuck on No One Mourns the Wicked.

Like first of all HELL YEAH to the score for the entire movie but especially this track. The music theory is music theory-ing for sure. I’m too tired to google all the appropriate terms but y’all get it.

But energetically and lyrically, especially with Ariana’s choices for Wicked (2024)? ((Yes I know I keep specifying but I feel that’s important considering how many iterations there are and I’ve only consumed this one so far))

Like… Glinda is on crowd control. Love her or hate her (I’m a Glinda apologist make no mistake), she consistently throughout the track steers the ensemble back to her in the spotlight. So much talk of “good” throughout act one when it comes to Glinda. She’s clearly goodness personified for this number.

Which can be selfishly triumphant or veiled grief, depending on your view of her character.

Yes, her higher notes are canonically less sincere according to the creators. But that doesn’t mean her messaging is wholly insincere? throughout act one she uses her operatic high notes to bring attention to herself (and the only time she’s silenced/allows herself to be silenced is when she comes to the Emerald City with Elphaba to support her).

So especially the last note of NOMTW to me, when Ariana opts up, is an indication of her insistence that the crowd look at HER and remember HER. And if you’re a Glinda apologist, we can read that as an attempt to redirect the focus of the celebration of death to the triumph of goodness, right? Because that keeps the crowd from focusing on the death of her best friend, and keeps her from needing to hide her grief among throngs of Munchkins burning an effigy of Elphaba…

Anyway I’m staying on my bullshit and will be back to scream into the ether later

[princesssarisa]

Character ask: Fiyero and Boq (Wicked)

I'm not really a die-hard Wicked fan, but here goes. This is for the musical only, since I haven't read the novel.

Warning: spoilers below.

Fiyero

Favorite thing about them: That despite seeming like a silly playboy at first, he proves to be a kindred sprit to Elphaba, who loves and respects her as she is, who tries to help and defend her when no one else in Oz is willing to do so, and who ultimately sacrifices everything for her, even (nearly) his life.

Least favorite thing about them: That he leads Glinda on by not breaking up with her even as he starts to fall for Elphaba, and then goes along with their engagement even though he doesn't want to marry her. He should have ended things between them long before it reached that point.

Three things I have in common with them:

*I can be snarky.

*I dislike fakeness and selling out.

*I can seem like just a fun-lover, but really I think and feel deeply.

Three things I don't have in common with them:

*I'm female.

*I'm not royalty.

*I was never a partying troublemaker in college.

Favorite line: His joke when Elphaba tells him she realizes he's not as shallow and self-absorbed as he seems:

"Excuse me, there's no pretense here: I happen to be genuinely self-absorbed and deeply shallow."

And these lines from his dialogue with Glinda at the beginning of Act II, where he calls her out on her tragic flaw of choosing fame and popularity over everything else:

"You can't leave because you can't resist this. And that is the truth."

And when she objects that no one could resist it: "You know who could. Who has."

brOTP: His horse Feldspur in the movie, and probably Boq, especially if we keep the Scarecrow and Tin Man's friendship in mind. Not to mention Dorothy, even though their interactions are kept offstage.

OTP: Elphaba.

nOTP: Glinda.

Random headcanon: Hmmm... In the movie, he really did eat grass as a child. He's not just joking when he says he did.

Unpopular opinion: I like him better than Glinda as a romantic partner for Elphaba. Of course I understand that Elphaba and Glinda's bond is more central and more fleshed out, I see the appeal of Gelphie as a ship, and I know how much Gelphie means to countless fans. But personally? Without denying Glinda's importance to Elphaba, I prefer Fiyero as her love interest. He embraces her values and comes through for her in a way that Glinda only does at the very end, and no attempts I've read by Gelphie shippers to dismiss that fact ring true for me. As a couple, Fiyeraba reminds me in many ways of Esmeralda and Phoebus in Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame (these Stephen Schwartz musicals have recurring themes!), and I don't see many fans putting down that pairing, even though they're a bit underdeveloped too, and even though Esmeralda's friendship with Quasimodo is more central to the plot. On the contrary, the fans hold up their love as the main example of healthy love in that story! Besides, if we don't think Elphaba really loves Fiyero, then "No Good Deed" loses its power. If he's just "comphet" to her, why should his apparent death break her so much that she resolves to really be wicked and kidnaps Dorothy? And the reveal that he's still alive is what snaps her out of her breakdown and lets her reconcile with Glinda in the end. I have nothing against shipping Gelphie, but I can't dismiss Fiyeraba as just "boring comphet" the way most of the fandom seems to do.

Song I associate with them: "Dancing Through Life"

"As Long as You're Mine"

Favorite picture of them:

Norbert Leo Butz

Aaron Tveit

Andy Karl

Derrick Williams with Stephanie J. Block (more actors of color should play the role)

Adam Garcia with Idina Menzel

Jonathan Bailey in the movie

Boq

Favorite thing about them: Well, when we first meet him at least, he's a sweet, adorkable character, and if the Tin Man we know from The Wizard of Oz is a mostly accurate portrait of how he behaves on his journey with Dorothy, he never really loses those qualities.

Least favorite thing about them: First that he leads Nessarose on (a recurring flaw among the young men in this story, it seems) and lies about why he asked her out, even if his reason is to avoid hurting her. And later, of course, that he becomes such a bloodthirsty witch hunter, out to kill Elphaba for turning him into tin even though she saved his life by doing so.

Three things I have in common with them:

*I can be socially awkward.

*I'm not always good at standing up for myself.

*Sometimes I want to blame people for doing things that made me uncomfortable, when really those things were good for me.

Three things I don't have in common with them:

*I'm female.

*I've never had any romantic entanglements with witches.

*I've never been turned into tin.

Favorite line: His verse in "March of the Witch Hunters," even though it's his darkest moment:

And this is more than just a service to the Wizard I have a personal score to settle with El... With The Witch!

It's due to her I'm made of tin Her spell made this occur So for once, I'm glad I'm heartless I'll be heartless killing her!

And the Lion also has a grievance to repay If she'd let him fight his own battles When he was young He wouldn't be a coward, today!

brOTP: In the Shiz days before things go bad, Fiyero, Nessarose, Elphaba and Glinda (especially in the deleted scene from the movie that shows them all hanging out together). And after he becomes the Tin Man, Dorothy.

OTP: None.

nOTP: Nessarose or Glinda.

Random headcanon: When he sees Elphaba "melt," he'll be unexpectedly horrified; he'll find himself remembering their days at Shiz and the girl she once was, and realize that seeing her die horribly doesn't feel as good as he thought it would. (I'm basing this on the Tin Man's close-to-tears face after the Witch melts in the 1939 Wizard of Oz: we'll see if Wicked: For Good has Ethan Slater react in a similar way or not.)

Unpopular opinion: Even though he's far from blameless, nothing justifies Nessarose stripping him and all the other Munchkins of their rights and forcing him to stay with her, then trying to magically brainwash him into loving her. He may deserve some karma for lying about his feelings for her, but he doesn't deserve all that.

Song I associate with them:

His part in "Dancing Through Life"

"March of the Witch Hunters"

Favorite picture of them:

Christopher Fitzgerald

Riley Costello

Ethan Slater in the movie

[thinenotthee]

other thing i cannot stop thinking about!

i LOVE that the movie does not demonize these college kids for not taking a stand like elphaba does. because while we all know that college kids are more than capable of standing up to societal wrongs (look at the last year, or the last 60 years), sometimes you are also just a scared 18 year old! after the "Animals should be seen and not heard" scene, you get that shot of dr. dillamond headed to his secret Animal meeting, but you can hear the students wishing him a good night. because they know what happened was fucked up! and they're trying to show him some kindness because he literally had a hate crime perpetrated against him earlier that day.

AND! in the scene where dillamond is dragged away, every student has on their face a look of shock and horror. because what else are you supposed to think when the damn military shows up and removes your professor. while i know we all like to think we'd immediately get up and do something like elphaba, the truth is that you'd most likely be in too much shock, especially if you've never seen this kind of violence in person before. elphaba has been subject to some level of this violence her entire life, but most of these shiz kids haven't. and they're scared and don't know what to do!

i don't know, just the conjunction of those two scenes really means something to me. it's honest without being cynical. and it feels especially cruel when we have SEEN that the students at shiz will rally against bullying someone ("what is this feeling?") but when the stakes get so high that there's actual state violence involved? well, sometimes you're just a scared 18 year old.

[jessmalia]

"As for Cynthia Erivo, I think it's great to cast a non-white actress for Elphaba, but she's not nearly ugly enough, sorry."

What do you mean? I think the casting could have been much better. Someone younger for a start. (Same with Glinda!)

(Little disclaimer here: When I'm talking ugliness I mean what's considered ugly by our society's standards, not my own personal ones. I'm not hating on anyone's looks. I actually don't care about others' appearances on a level that I would personally consider anyone ugly.)

Well, I meant that since Elphaba is literally discriminated against for the color of her skin, it's fitting to cast a non-white actress for this racism allegory, but a very important part of her character is also that she's very ugly, beyond that of her unusual skin color. Sure, Cynthia Erivo doesn't have any euro-centric features, which is less conventionally attractive in of itself, but I don't think that's enough. Hollywood just has a pretty people obsession (especially nowadays), so this was just never gonna happen.

It's so frustratingly ironic that Wicked's entire point is that people equate beauty with goodness so much that they make Elphaba a villain and Glinda a hero solely based on their looks (and other surface level attributes like class etc.) when the opposite is in fact true, and then the only time an actually conventionally unattractive actress has been cast to play Elphaba is in The Wizard of Oz where she was the villain of that story.

I mean, this isn't just about the Margaret Hamilton's looks, it's also the makeup and costuming department working to support a certain aesthetic. The ratty hair, the plain clothing, the unkempt eyebrows, the wart, the prosthetic nose. It's also in her performance. The way she moves her face and pronounces her words and walks with a really hunched back. It's all working together to make her unappealing and creepy, so that the audience won't like her and cheer as she's taken down.

I mean, here's a picture of Margaret Hamilton just as herself:

This is most likely a professional headshot. Her hair is done, she's wearing makeup, earrings and nice clothes. Sure, she's not today's Hollywood Pretty, but you can see what a big difference this sort of thing makes. The most important thing for me, is that both in this headshot and in the movie, Margaret Hamilton looks like a real person, and my biggest issue with Wicked (2024), from what I've seen so far, is that everything looks incredibly fake.

I mean, let's compare this to how Cynthia Erivo is styled in the movie:

Like, fucking look at this! The neat braid, the green contour, the ombre shaded lips, the eyeliner, the mascara, the perfectly drawn eyebrows, the fancy clothes. They did everything in their power to make her look as pretty as possible. And unless they changed the dialogue significantly, which I doubt, they're gonna have characters go on and on about how ugly she is! God, I hate this fucking movie.

[mysteriouslyhopefulstranger]

In Defense of Nessarose

((Before I saw the Wicked movie, I had become aware of the hate against Nessarose for not sticking up for Elphaba, especially to the point where people were making abelist jokes against her. Poor Marissa Bode had to speak up about this, saying how people can't seem to handle morally grey characters.

When I went to see the movie, I could honestly defend most if not all of Nessa's behavior. Let's start with her childhood:

Nessa seemed to speak very little as a toddler. When those bullies came in to jeer at young Elphaba, Nessa closed her eyes and ears and started bawling. This reminded me of a meltdown, which makes me wonder if Nessa is autistic. If so, then how could a toddler suffering a meltdown be able to explain to her father that Elphaba was trying to defend herself and her sister? Plus, again, she was closing her eyes; she probably couldn't even see much of what Elphaba was doing.

Now onto Nessa going to Shiz. From what I can see between Nessa, Elphaba, AND Mr. Thropp, Nessa isn't just embarrassed with Elphaba like everybody says [which sucks]. She is coddled and overprotected by her father. Mr. Thropp treats her like she could shatter at every little move. It makes me wonder if she was ever allowed to interact with other people outside of the Thropp estate. Nessa wants to have a normal life and be treated like everyone else. Going to Shiz probably gave her a chance to be independent. Elphaba seems to understand her sister far more than her own father does. When Mr. Thropp ordered Elphaba to accompany Nessa to her room, Elphaba said no, like she knew that Nessa didn't need her help, like she knew that Nessa could handle herself.

And then there's this moment:

I have read plenty of stories of wheelchair users stating how they HATE having people move them without their permission. She's once again being treated like she's broken here. Elphaba reacts because, again, she knows her sister. She knows that she hates being treated like this. Elphaba had to use her powers to get Nessa away from this woman.

Now I've seen people get angry at Nessa for snapping at Elphaba for saving her. I understand, but let me remind you that Nessa got YEETED off of the ground!

With one wrong move, Nessa could fall off of the wheelchair and either die or have more problems than just legs that don't work! I'd be frazzled to the point of snapping, too! Plus, referring to the possibility of Nessa being autistic, can you imagine the overstimulation of having your wheelchair moved without your permission and then flying in the air without warning?

Now for the solo exchange between Elphaba and Nessa in "Dancing Through Life." Pay attention to this line Nessa sings:

"Fin'lly for this one night/I get to have a fun life"

This solidifies my theory that Nessa has been coddled by her father to the point where she couldn't go out with other people. The Ozdust Ballroom dance was probably her first dance party. Her father probably never let anyone ask her out. Once again, all she wants is to have a normal life which means she wants people to treat her like anyone else.

Can you imagine her joy when the most popular girl in school got a sweet boy to workup the nerve to ask her out to dance? To give her a chance to have her independence and fun for the first time in her life? Can you imagine her joy when the boy "confessed" that he asked her out not out of pity but because he thought she was beautiful? It makes you wonder what kind of self-esteem issues Nessa had growing up. If she felt that the wheelchair was too distracting.

Now I'll admit that I did get a little miffed when Nessa didn't join Elphaba when she danced on her own. But I want to go back to that autistic theory. Nessa at one point said "I can't look!" Was that shame? Or was she embarrassed for Elphaba, like ultra empathy that some autistic people have?

To wrap it all up, I want to bring up a possibility that will make you hate Mr. Thropp even more. If you recall Elphaba's monologue on why Nessa came out disabled, she started off by saying "My father hates me." Despite the fact that it was really HIS fault that Nessa needed a wheelchair and he wife died of childbirth, Elphaba is carrying the guilt that this all happened because she came out green. Mr. Thropp does not hide his favoritism between his daughters and his disdain towards poor Elphaba. If he didn't tell her outright blame her, he must've dropped passive-aggressive hints at her.

WHAT IF MR. THROPP ALSO PLANTED THOSE SEEDS OF HATE IN NESSA? What if he told Nessa that it's Elphaba's fault that she's bound to a wheelchair? If he did, it would add onto Nessa's distant behavior towards her own sister.

If this is true, then a heart attack is too good of a death for that creature.))