#thinking about. deltarune because of the stuff surrounding ralsei

[spam-monster]

Random Assorted Deltarune Post Ch 3-4 Theories:

Our choices may not matter...but the choices of the other characters do, and our actions can influence them. We can choose to influence Noelle into choosing to blindly follow our instructions and become a killer in the Snowgrave Route, but we can also choose to spare and recruit all the Darkeners we can and encourage Susie and Ralsei (and maybe even eventually Kris) to choose to try and defy the prophecy.

"The ending will be the same" isn't as restricting as it seems; consider that in Undertale the True Pacifist and the Genocide routes both end with "no more monsters in the Underground" even though the circumstances surrounding how it happened is wildly different.

Jackenstein was meant to become the secret boss of the Church Dark World, and maybe the main antagonist of the chapter like King/Queen/Tenna was, but Gerson intercepted the dark shard and kept it away so that he wouldn't become corrupted. The important thing was that we ended up with the shard after a boss fight; Gerson just manipulated things so that he became the boss fight instead and as a result the world is a lot more peaceful.

Asgore is going to be the next Dark World boss/secret boss fight. He has the same motivations and themes as a lot of the other main bosses - a parental/caretaker figure who feels abandoned and is trying to recapture past happiness to make everything the way it was before.

Carol is trying to control those with ties to the prophecy to make sure it goes according to plan. Us choosing good routes over the Snowgrave routes and Susie getting involved at all are the biggest obstacles to her plans, because we're encouraging free will and doing the right thing over blind obedience.

Kris used to be a he/him before figuring out they were really a they/them, but Carol still thinks of them as a boy. Mostly because it fits with "Snowgrave route is toxic het relationship that religious mom approves of" versus "Normal route is cute lesbian relationship that mom does not like" allegory. (Not that Kris/Noelle can't exist in a non-toxic way, but that Snowgrave specifically is forcing Kris into a corrupting male role over submissive girl Noelle).

Carol also doesn't like that Dess used to be into punk rock stuff, and is forcing Noelle to suppress the part of her that likes horror stuff. Both girls would usually have similar tastes to Susie, which is another reason Carol wants her to stay away. Her family has an Image to Maintain.

Sans knows more than he lets on. It's possible he knows the Knight is after Toriel for some reason, and that they were going to make a Dark Fountain in the church to try and get her again, so he purposefully distracted Toriel from choir practice and hung out with her all night so she would be safe. He isn't aware however that we were looking for her all night or that Kris and Susie were gonna be so upset by the whole thing.

Knight!Dess is not dead, but not alive either - she's in the same "fallen down" state that the monsters who eventually became amalgamations were in the original Undertale, and Carol is trying to bring about the prophecy and Heaven to restore her daughter back to "normal" instead of accepting what she became. Part of the reason the Knight acts so erratically is mental stress because Carol locked her away from everyone else and is constantly rejecting her as her daughter.

Carol = "Ruthlessness is MERCY upon ourselves"

[d3f3n3str4t10n]

Undertale 9th Anniversary Newsletter Teasers!

Undertale's 9th anniversary newsletter dropped, and the only part I care about is the Deltarune stuff lol.

We've got more teasers! The one up top is for Chapter 3. I... don't know what to make of it, honestly. It almost looks like something is censored... or just, not brightened up? No clue what those hubby things are, or why they're on a pier, or where Ralsei is... but, it kinda reminds me of the dock scene with the Goner Kid.

To be honest, the nubs kinda remind me of shag carpeting. But... I've got no idea why that'd be an area lol.

Here's Chapter 4's teaser. Noelle looking into a flashlight, surrounded by birthday presents. The scene is pretty small, probably because there's a bunch of other stuff we ain't supposed to see yet. Could she be telling a scary story, or trying to find something in a dark room? Considering one of those presents in the back is very candy-cane shaped, I'd say this is somewhere in her house...

chapter 5's teaser is a balloon. That's it. People think it's gonna be the day of the town festival... which could be true, but iiiiii just don't see it. Seems like an obvious red herring to me.

[phoenixesse]

Deltarune Chapter 3/4 Spoilers

I think I’ve finally come up with a plausible theory for how the Dark Worlds are opened but Darkners still have incredibly detailed personalities and backstories.

This idea comes from a few disclaimers I thought about while making it.

Firstly, Dark Worlds aren’t on a separate plane of existence or anything. I originally used this to try and fit some stuff together, but I realized it just doesn’t work with Ralsei’s explanation of the parallels between the Light and Dark Worlds. The space in a Light World no longer exists when a Fountain occupies it, so calling it a separate plane, as if they co-exist, seems contradictory, especially when Ralsei also says Dark Worlds are illusions.

Secondly, Darkners take attributes from their Light World counterparts (and the creation of a Fountain is a rebirth of sorts).

And lastly, every, or nearly every place in the Light World has the potential to be a Dark one. I say this because I think this is what keeps the Light/Dark World balance. Every place has dormant (or potential) states in darkness. Opening one Dark Fountain does not throw this off balance because light still surrounds it. Multiple Dark Fountains, however, create potential for Dark Worlds to eclipse the Light counterparts, amalgamating them so much that their origin points cease to exist. Darkners would all turn to stone during The Roaring because not only can they not properly interact with the Light World (which would no longer exist with so much darkness), but also not have a proper starting point where they become Darkners from a specific Dark Fountain. All of the darkness would cancel itself out, leaving the Lightners to try and survive the universal terror that needs multiple Dark Fountains that makes up the Titans.

This idea mostly surrounds itself with retroactivity, so hopefully to make it less complicated, here’s a timeline of my thought process.

1. A Dark Fountain is opened.

2. A Dark World is created, contorting the space it used to occupy in the Light World into an illusion. Darkners are created from inanimate objects into their new forms.

3. Darkners 'live out their lives'. I imagine that Darkners not only personify certain characteristics from their Light World counterparts, but they also 'live' what would have been their lives as soon as they're created. It's almost as if they live what will become their memories at present in the blink of an eye, where they aren't manufactured, necessarily. I think their Light World memories appear just how we expect them to, but this moment where their memories are being created is still one that is influenced by the Darkners' choices. Spamton and Tenna's relationship still happens on their own accord because of their choices. Ralsei feels as though he's been waiting his whole life for Kris and Susie even if it's maybe not even been a day since the Castle Town fountain was created. Seam still has some sort of strange history with Jevil that goes beyond their Light World counterparts just sitting in the same room or something. Just thought I'd use this as a bit of a clearer picture.

4. Darkners are 'placed' in the present. This is more of a fulfillment step than anything. With their pasts being retroactive, I almost imagine it as everything coming together so that Darkners appear how they're supposed to. Their memories sort of catch up to them in the present, making them full characters with in-depth personalities without it being inauthentic by the nature of their creation. The Dark Fountains create beings out of almost nothing, but as soon as it does, some of their aspects become things that already happened years ago to them, even if the Fountain is a few seconds old.

Darkners seem to be very aware of not only the prophecy, but that they are made from Fountains, even if they do have lots of memories. I wonder if the possibility of darkness keeps their Darkner forms somewhat dormant in the Light World, too.

[jubider]

ok here's my interpretation of the prophecy stuff in chapters 3+4 (very long textpost under the cut)

the girl in the prophecy is (intended to be) noelle.

there's quite a lot of evidence supporting her being in the original trio. she obviously has a close, personal connection to kris, she has a lot of connections to the dark worlds and the general weirdness surrounding them, the line ralsei has about the ribbons being 'for susie' - the girl in the prophecy etc...

she's also the only other lightner so far to join the party in the dark world. that may well change with future chapters (given we haven't really had another party candidate in chapters 3 and 4), but i still think it has significance.

in the prophecy, the girl is (really) the only character with agency. the cage (kris) is just a vessel for the soul. the dark prince (i cant be bothered to find the original wording) doesn't matter as darkners don't matter. the girl is (seemingly) the only one of the three with the ability to meaningfully affect things.

obviously, the biggest evidence for this is the weird route. the only way we can fundamentally alter the story within the dark worlds. the route centered around noelle, a seemingly minor character who really shouldn't be as relevant as she is for not being part of the prophecy.

if noelle isn't the original 'girl,' then why is she the only one who can meaningfully change the story?

so, here's my idea of how susie inherited 'the girl' title in this timeline.

the events of deltarune have already happened before, but previously noelle took the mantle of 'the girl'. the prophecy was fulfilled, including the tragic end that was referenced in chapter 4.

(we're going to assume dess (or a fragment of dess) is the knight from here on for simplicity sake and because that's what i believe)

assuming this tragic end involves some kind of character death (be it kris, dess, noelle etc...), someone resets the world through dark world/roaring shenanigans, in an attempt to get a better outcome. at this point its basically pick your mystery boogyman - kris, dess, even gaster if you want to go that far - for who actually does this, but i can see it going a multitude of ways (even a powered up (angel?) noelle). hell, it could even be carol given how she seems to be orchestrating things with the knight.

the world is reset, but with one major change. susie is 'the girl' instead of noelle. i don't have an exact idea on her origins yet (whether shes a creation of gaster or just a random person; i could see it working either way), but putting her into the trio massively changes the outcome of the story.

first off, i want to address the actual prophecy section in chapter 4. the windows clearly display susie's silhouette, not noelle's (same with the prophecy in chapter 1). this could kill this theory, but i think the visual representations of the characters in the prophecy don't actually matter that much.

in chapter 1, ralsei is the one telling us the prophecy. its filtered through his lens, with the information he can see about the legendary heroes in front of him (this is assuming the slides are even meant to be diegetic in the first place). he also (as we now know for sure), omitted parts of the prophecy, namely the tragic end. who's to say he didn't just change the representations himself to match the timeline?

that brings us to the big question of ralsei, and whether or not he knows about the reset. i would lean heavily towards no. if he knew, he wouldn't be so worried about the prophecy coming to pass - he wouldn't call susie's hope naive if he knew she was specifically put there to change the ending. i think the only character who would actually know is kris (though i'm not sure how - maybe soul shenanigans (i won't touch much on the soul in this theory for simplicity's sake)).

my explanation for why the windows in chapter don't match either is basically the same. the dark worlds are affected by what happens around them. if, in this timeline, 'the girl' is susie, the glass would show susie.

basically, the written word of the prophecy is absolute (at least in terms of the heroes). the interpretation is not.

so, why does susie matter?

she represents the idea of true, agency. she often doesn't listen to the souls commands. she can refuse to change her armour/weapons. she pushes ralsei to become independent and defends noelle's autonomy when berdly and her mother try to impose.

in the end of this timeline (if the same events come to pass) they are somehow thwarted by susie. probably using her ultimate heal (which toby has stated will be important and could symbolise her rejection of roles imposed on her by outside forces - the prophecy). this would give us the 'true' ending of deltarune, and effectively tie up the thematic content around choice, freedom and agency.

susie just doesn't fit in with the rest of hometown. obviously, shes (at least somewhat) new to the town, doesn't have any real known parental figures and is generally at odds with the rest of the residents friendly and inviting demeanours. with the information in chapter three, we can assume shes likely in the foster system - constantly being moved around and not feeling like she belongs anywhere (+ her insistence on tenna getting a home after the end of the chapter). while this also adds some weight to the idea of her being a creation of gaster/whatever else, it also puts her at thematic odds with the rest of the light world kids. noelle and kris' stories are heavily intertwined with the theme of family. noelle's missing sister and controlling mother. kris living in the shadow of their older brother and dealing with their parents divorce and baggage. hell, the entire conflict of the game (if my other theories come to pass) is caused by carol's refusal to let dess go and resurrecting her through a dark world to create the knight. susie has no family, no past, and in a story where family and the past are so important that clearly sets her apart.

i also think susie in chapter 1 is a lot more important than most people think - specifically her refusal of the title of 'hero'. she refuses to be labelled as a hero at first, only accepting the title when she realises she can be a hero in her own way - she doesn't have to be a traditional hero - she can make her own path. noelle on the other hand probably would have accepted the title immediately, taking it at face value. the title of 'hero' and the expectations of being a 'hero' would have changed her, rather than the opposite with susie (especially with chapter 1 ralsei being chapter 1 ralsei...).

now, the 'love will find the girl' part. in the original prophecy, i assume this was noelle and kris, but that obviously isn't happening in the normal route of this timeline (even in the 'original' timeline, depending on kris and whether or not the soul was present, it probably would have been unhappy and forced too).

well, with susie, its obviously not. the light world sections in chapter 4 really highlight the growing romantic relationship between noelle and susie. in my opinion, this is representative of noelle rejecting the things being imposed on her as well - both her mothers controlling attitude and dislike of susie and her relationship with kris as outlined in the prophecy. it's not 'supposed' to happen, but it does because susie has been introduced into the story artificially.

susie's refusal to see darkners as less than her is also important to this idea. she rejects the idea of darkners having a defined purpose (to make lightners happy) and sees them as their own independent people, yet another example of her going against fate and what is ordained in the prophecy.

in contrast, i think the weird route represents the player paradoxically 'going back to' the original prophecy in an attempt to break fate (this is by far the shakiest part of the theory as i haven't fully familiarised myself with all the weird route stuff in chapters 3+4 yet). the weird route emphasises the uncomfortable, forced, heteronormative romantic relationship between kris and noelle. i think that in doing the weird route, although we may change things on the way, the ultimate ending to the game will be the original, prophesied ending, tragedy and all (that is, if susie doesn't throw things completely off the rails). this parallels undertale's genocide route, as in trying to find all of the games secrets, we end up getting the worst ending/going against whoever set up susie within the story.

ultimately, i think susie is the most important character in the game - the one who will allow us to break free from the 'only one ending' (i've never actually thought the game would have only one ending - i always interpreted susie's 'your choices don't matter' line in chapter 1 to be equivalent to 'kill or be killed' in undertale - something that will be ultimately disproved in the true ending) and allow us to get a truly good one.

ramble over

jesus christ that was long

[oldmen-enjoyer]

[[Sweet horror]] and many more!

(Please click image for HD!!)

My headcanon is just shoving body horror onto it ghghgh

also warning: it may disturbing to some of you!!!

Spamton have eye-mouths! The two eyeballs he have in his pocket (or carry around) is just collection. He have collection of all kind of eyes. He never have his own eyes so he think they're really neat!

He still can "see" just fine. Don't worry!

Pipis are egg-like larvae that will pupae into a mimic of their current caretaker. To identify the caretaker. It need long physical contract with the caretaker. If it left alone for too long, it will not pupae into anything.

Parasites is a creature both exist in lightner and darkner world. They're, well, not hostile. But they're in need of host to move around properly. And to live ( normally they can't speak and function most of the time beside trying to find a nearby host ). They're barely noticeable in normal surrounding (like the town and first dark world) but they're more visible in Cyber City. But they managed to camouflage into wire / robot-like.

There's currently two type of parasites (so far): the orb and the beak.

The orb is more docile parasite, when they choose their host at least. They rather choose dead host like corpse or inanimate object. Current known orb parasites is: Seam and Jevil

(Host for Seam is patched up taxidermy cat. The tendrils mimic wool strings and the orb *tried* to mimic button)

(Host for Jevil is a ceramic doll. The texture on the orb is similar to ceramic even on the clothes. )

The beak is similar to orb beside the fact that they look like beak. They perfer living host. They're still docile but they're extremely harmful to their host. Imagine having your will strip away and only time you can do anything on your on (via screaming) is when they decided to open their mouth little too wide. If the parasite ever leave the host, the host will fall in permanent paralysis until the parasite return. You basically become puppet.

Current known beak parasites is: Swatch, Swatchlings and Tarques Manager.

(Host for Swatch and Swatchlings are partly mutated since the feathers and bird-like features isn't in original unmutate humanoid host)

(Host for Tarques Manager is decapitated humanoid host with robot body part. The tendrils mimic a wired and horns is mimic an ear)

The Queen is aware that Swatch and Swatchlings is parasite but choose to tolerate them since their service is pretty dandy. That goes for Tarques Manager too.

Spamton, who isn't parasite, is also tolerate by The Queen though she would bad-mouth him on occasional because he's not robot and she's also one of people that got weirded out by him.

Swatch and Spamton got along okay though. But Spamton doesn't dig in any deeper terms and just stay as platonic homie who would hear Spamton talking about nonsense. Imagine someone suddenly talking about ancient aliens after one shot of whiskey. That's how Swatch feel about him.

Now changed timeline because I have a bit more clear picture. Spamton decided to turn into garbage man / pre-JHC Spamton because he caught sneaking into mansion + stealing important stuff and Queen basically order Swatchling to take him out and dip him in acid lake like Oreo. Now he's partly unhinged but nothing too bad. Just sorta isolated himself for awhile before he found Jekyll and you know the gick. Become big shot and stay in mansion. And also alienated by almost everyone. All of that happened in span of several years ( the JHC Spamton exist for few months. The reason he can't use his wings because he don't really know how to fly and barely use it).

Gordon is given name by Jekyll after he show Spamton how Jekyll got his name from so I'll pretend these two father n son play Half-Life series and Spamton liked how Gordon sound.

After the ending of Deltarune chapter 2, Spamton actually don't change like other characters since he's full fleshy 250 cm tall dude. So now Spamton either lurk in Dark World own by Ralsei or occasionally roaming the town and become cryptic figure. And he still gonna sell weird shits to those people at 3 am yeah.

Oh and he occasionally hop into realities and visit The Crew. Though he perfer to work from the world he's familiar with :)

Manage to make few friends too! Though tjat s just Spamton from other reality:

[protectchara201x]

(ignoring all the other juicy Deltarune 2 stuff to shove Chara Talks into it lololol)

I haven’t been super active on this blog because frankly I have like, three? looong analysis/theorycrafting posts I’ve been putting off working on and it fills me with shame to log in and see them waiting in my drafts.

But.

With the release of Deltarune Chapter 2, I wanted to talk kinda in general about how I thought it could impact the fandom’s perception of Everybody’s Favorite Demon Baby, and also point out something in specific about the Weird Route that might connect back to Undertale.

Putting it under the cut to avoid spoilers and long-winded ramblings for the unwilling. Includes spoilers for the Weird Route.

(NOTE: may update later if I notice more things for to put in section II. I’d like to make a full list of parallels if I can tidy them up.)

I. Pre- vs Post-Release Thoughts (you can skip down to II if you don’t care, it is genuinely Long and Pointless)

Okay, so first off. I got SO worried like, the day before the new chapter dropped? It hit me that whatever new stuff we got out of this, people would connect back to Undertale, and. Honestly, I really do hate connecting everything back to Chara, because I do think of Kris as their own character and I really like them and don’t want to ignore everything they got going on. But, I am first and foremost a shameless Chara stan and they’re very important to me, so I kinda... did spend a few minutes reeling from all the new DR stuff as its own stuff, and then immediately started thinking about how this would reflect back on Chara in Undertale lol.

But that’s ok for me to do here because this is my All Chara, Only Chara, All The Time blog, so I am gonna only really talk about Deltarune here to talk about them lol.

So yeah, I started getting anxious beforehand worrying about how everyone would take any and all implications and apply it to mean “aha, Chara IS evil!” The fakeout with the pie reveal in the anniversary stream was a big relief, but I still got worried leading up to the release about what could be in it.

Because part of why I’ve always thought that “Chara was genuinely evil from the start” and even “ok maybe not TOTALLY evil, but Chara was still a kinda bad person” were unlikely was, even if you throw out all the other popular Chara-sympathetic theories. To me, both these takes just seemed too below TF’s talent and the way he wrote all his other characters with depth and love; a Chara like the one these theories propose just doesn’t belong in a world created by TF, and the way the Dreemurrs talk about them overall, the way TF made a point of having Chara say they were guided and repeatedly, correctly blame you the player for the destruction in Kill-All, I was sure that he never intended them to ever be as bad as the fandom sometimes tried to make them out to be.

... Like, mostly sure. Like, 80% sure? Because he never ever talks about them, so it’s impossible say for sure, and it is still theoretically possible that “Chara was and is bad” was the cold-ass take he’d intended all along. So yeah, leading up to the release, I started getting antsy that whatever new lore came out of it, either he’d directly confirm “Chara was a villain?” “*cocks gun* Always has been” or there’d be something that’d at least heavily implicate them, or could be twisted to implicate them, as a negative force. More ammo to be used against them in the Chara Debate Circles would be a drag, and outright confirmation of them as a villain would honestly break my heart and I’d be forced to disown Toby Fox, My Beloved Cool Dad.

And, right now? Tell the truth, I’m SO relieved and I am SO happy. And not just because of how much depth and characterization it seems Kris is getting! (imo, because rn I just headcanon them as an unhappy teen desperately trying to keep their new friends going on adventures with them and trying to fight back against the player’s control)

I love how this chapter seems to be TF doing course-correcting based on fandom interpretations. Because Kris just isn’t evil, even if they are a knife teen, even if they are the Knight, they’re just NOT evil and that’s canon, baybeeee; it’s made clear in this chapter and the previous one that they love their family even outside of the player’s control, they care about their new friends even outside of the player’s control, they’re established as a weird creepy kid but no one sees them as scary or evil, they’re just Kris, and even in the Weird Route, TF made a point of hammering in the differences between Kris and the player in the Weird Route: Susie and Ralsei notice how distressed Kris seemed after you have Noelle ice Berdly, Noelle heard a voice that she said wasn’t Kris telling her to kill, and the FUCKING Spamton fight: “Kris called for help... but nobody came” again and again, and then “You whispered Noelle’s name”... you, not Kris.

I know TF has never commented much on fans’ perceptions of Frisk and Chara, or who exactly is pulling strings in different routes. But after all this, and especially after seeing all the little winks and nods to fandom jokes in this chapter (what comes to mind: pulling everyone’s leg by seeming to have Kris attack Toriel with a knife only to reveal that pie theory was right, Susie not liking Ralsei’s real face as much as his shadowed one, Ralsei with a gun getting referenced with the ad, Kris getting a joke fixation with knives after the fans made Chara and Kris have knife obsessions as a joke), and seeing what looks like him try to correct some things (what stuck out to me was doubling down on showing that Kris is loved and valued in their family: lots of fans came away from Chapter 1 thinking that Kris was not valued as much as Asriel, but here we see that Toriel is supportive of Kris’ friendship with Susie, and it’s stated that Asriel is the one who used the crappy controller, not Kris) -

I think while he hasn’t commented directly, while he admitted to being overwhelmed by Undertale’s success, while he tends to be pretty tight-lipped about the lore (whether that’s because it’ll be addressed by future chapters or because he prefers to let fans sleuth it out), this chapter convinced me that Toby does keep tabs on fan reactions in Deltarune, so he probably does with Undertale too and would know about all The Discourse surrounding Little Mx Pink Cheeks (and in turn, popular theories like Narrator Chara... Toby if you integrate Narrator Chara into Deltarune being a borderline creepypasta and have the narrator start talking directly to the characters or to the player or the characters start talking to the narrator I will lose my damn B E A N S).

(Kris and Chara not being demonized and the narrator interacting directly with the characters were the only two things on my wishlist going in, I was fine with literally anything else happening lmao)

I even kinda think he’s going out of his way to separate Kris and the player because we didn’t get it before with Undertale, we still insisted that Frisk or Chara was the one doing it, and he’s even using Kris to show that even if this kid can be scary, maybe even mean, and maybe they’re even the Knight (with their reasons unknown), they’re still not a bad kid, they’re still funny and likable, and they still genuinely love their family and friends - which falls in line with Undertale’s cast of complex but likable people who can be antagonists and make mistakes but still aren’t truly bad people, and imo is a direct response to some people fixating on the idea that Chara was always evil because they seem scary/complicated.

... Which is a long way to say that I came out of Deltarune with my confidence fully restored about TF’s intentions with Chara and Kris. Even if he never comments on Chara directly, now I really don’t think TF thinks they’re evil or ever intended for them to be. Deltarune convinced me more than ever that Chara is meant to be complex, yes, and able to be influenced to do horrible things, but they were never intended to be as malicious or shallow as some fans insist.

TLDR:

Toby Fox read your mean fanfiction where Chara is a bad abusive serial killer no one likes, and he made Deltarune in revenge.

... Hm? Ah, you’d like me to get to the point! Right this way!

II. Undertale, Deltarune, and The Point

While no doubt some will still take the voice Noelle hears to be Chara influencing her to turn her into a murderer (I haven’t gone looking for it yet, but I’m sure it’s already a thing because I know this fandom), since it’s made too clear by the game that they can’t blame Kris for this one, I think at this point that’s just being too stubborn to consider other ideas.

If you believe in the totally made up idea used in so many fanfics that Chara is an evil spirit trying to whisper in Frisk’s ear to kill everyone, literally (for some reason) the embodiment of raising stats, and gets more control over people who have increased LV to take over their body... sure. Could be them, they did talk about moving on to the next world and all. I mean, that wouldn’t really make sense because it’s literally never implied in the actual game that Chara encourages you to kill outside of the Kill-All Run or even wants you to, certainly not as the narrator and we get no hint of them doing this as an unseen, unheard third-party either.

Not to mention they’re NOT literally possessing you because of increased LV; they don’t control you even with high LV in any Undertale route other than arguably the Kill-All, and if you fail the Kill-All and it turns into a high-body count Neutral, Chara suddenly stops using first-person narration and showing up in mirrors entirely even though they were showing themself before, the LV remains the same or even can get raised as high as LV 19, nor do they suddenly take over in any other Neutral runs. We can speculate on why (personally, I’d place this either on Chara’s mindset, such as them sinking into shock from the trauma or becoming more assertive as the player feeds their megalomania, or as a sign of Frisk’s withdrawal, leaving Chara alone in the body to take the reins and act out the player’s orders), but canonically, no, Chara does not take over due to high stats.

In fact, there’s even more evidence against this. First-person narration also exists for fleeing your battles in Undertale, even on Pacifist runs with base stats, 0 EXP, and an LV of 1. Since Chara is established to use first-person narration to refer to themself, is the only one who canonically does so, and is confirmed to be present even in all runs through their name and memories always showing up, it seems pretty likely that Chara can take control to flee battle. That means an increase in stats is not a sign of their presence or control, in Undertale or Deltarune.

The most damning blow to the idea that Chara is the voice corrupting Noelle are the lines in the fight with Spamton I mentioned. Kris called for help, but nobody came. You whispered Noelle’s name. Well hold on. If that’s Chara, shouldn’t it be “I whispered Noelle’s name”? As soon as you’ve officially started the Kill-All in Undertale, Chara starts up their “It’s me, Chara” schtick right away, right there in Toriel’s home in the first area, and if they weren’t the narrator before, they’re beginning to speak through the narration now. If the voice was Chara, surely Toby Fox knows it’d be a way bigger “oh shit” moment if the creepy scary hidden route once again switched into first-person, scaring us the same way he did before when we first saw “It’s me, Chara” and knew something was wrong; unfairly or not, their reputation as a villain is still well established and hinting to Chara’s presence with a simple “I” would drive the menace even further, if he intended for them to simply be a demon that possesses player characters when you grind enough. But it’s still just you. The player.

The Weird Route does even more to help Chara’s case than that. Not only is it made pretty clear that Kris and the player are separate, and the player is the one responsible for corrupting Noelle and making her kill... consider how similar Noelle and Chara are, in the Weird Route and the Kill-All Route.

This “voice” that “guides” them in growing strong, compelling them to kill everyone in order to fight for them, eventually driving them to murder people they know. Chara calls themself “the demon that comes when people call its name”, and you whisper Noelle’s name to have her appear to kill Spamton. Noelle’s conflicting emotions towards Kris and the voice as she is manipulated, as she becomes more violent and sadistic, as she goes into shock; does that not sound like Chara, who flipflops between holding you dear as their partner and wanting to move on to the next world together, to be together forever, and them being disgusted by your refusal to accept consequences and the perverse enjoyment you get in killing everyone again and again? Chara, who clings to their quirky narration for much of the Kill-All, but keeps slipping up, who becomes terrifyingly cold, aggressive, power-hungry, and even sadistic, yet still calls Undyne “the heroine”, still seems to still care about their locket, still has moments where they seem to falter?

Noelle does put up significantly more resistance to the voice’s commands than Chara does, and at least much more visibly shows distress and trauma. I don’t think this is a black mark on Chara’s chara-cter either, or an indication of them being more violent or cruel.

For one, while Noelle is still herself with her own soul, it is heavily implied by Chara, Flowey, and Undertale’s lore that Chara was reincarnated without their own soul, at best perhaps attached to Frisk’s (or yours): as I speculate in one of my currently unfinished theories, while monster souls are made up of love, compassion, and hope and thus Asriel was reincarnated without these qualities, it could well be that human souls are correspondingly made up of their own multiple traits, namely determination, patience, bravery, integrity, perseverance, kindness, and justice; if true, a soulless Chara would be lacking these qualities, which would make them less equipped to resist the player’s commands or to feel as torn up about it.

Also, the player has a hold on them both as “party members” to the player’s vessels, but it is also possible that the player naming Chara and having them directly attached to Frisk also gives them a stronger connection to Chara they can abuse, similar to how Kris and Frisk (as the player’s direct vessels) have much less autonomy than Kris’ party members.

(Fun observation: We know that when the thing controlling Kris forced Noelle into becoming a killer and using her to kill Berdly, Kris was horrified and shaken-up according to Susie and Ralsei. How do you think Frisk felt watching Chara be used to slaughter the Underground and then erasing the world when they’re totally corrupted?)

And lastly... look, Noelle and Chara are both minors, but Chara is significantly younger - a small child compared to Noelle’s teen. I know it’s fiction and strong wills and determination and anime is real and all, but a traumatized young child who died two violent and awful deaths back-to-back, may have literally experienced being a corpse in their own coffin/grave for who knows how long, and then came back ”confused” only to immediately start hearing a voice relentlessly commanding them to kill everyone?? I can absolutely see a traumatized kid shutting down and just going with it out of fear at first, before the LV sets in.

TLDR:

What you do to Noelle in the Weird Route is the same fucking thing you do to Chara in the Kill-All Route.

[alilaro]

What are your headcanons for Kris and Noelle?

warning for deltarune spoilers!

firstly, I really like all the characters from undertale/deltarune. toby pays so much attention to each one; even background ones; and has a way with making everyone very charming and likable.

kris: I feel bad for every time I play. like on a meta level the game guilts you into playing: you have to play to progress, but playing means you are possessing kris; a young kid, into doing your bidding. even if you make "good" choices, you still are controlling them to do so. kris is your puppet. (it's not a surprise they ripped the veil in the end of chapter two. its not them being evil, it's their only means of feeling in control, and a cry for help)

there are options in the game where you can force kris to hug ralsei, despite other characters stating how much kris hates hugs, and it feels violating and perverse, it feels wrong. i believe kris genuinely would like susie regardless of the players intervening, but ralsei obviously looks like asriel and the idea of trying to push them together into some weird make-believe like you're playing dolls freaks me out.

i deliberately avoid ralsei in-game because of this (also bc they're obviously hiding something lmao), and even though I don't know much about Kris, using tidbits from other characters I try to make choices based on what I think kris would approve of most.

+

noelle: I think is super super cute. i love the ghibli-static hair thing her sprite does whenever she gets embarrassed talking to/about susie. and how she is very warm and friendly, but likes a lot of weird and dark stuff too.

I'm also really interested in the lore surrounding her and her family. her dad is in hospital with an illness that he makes light of despite it seeming pretty serious. also I think him and asgore have some sort of romance between them? her mom is the mayor and apparently a hard-ass, and I'm excited to meet that character in the upcoming chapters.

there's also the fact that noelle has a sister name 'Dess', or december, but its heavily implied they died. there's a bit where berdly and noelle were in a spelling bee, and the only reason berdly won was because the last word was 'December' and it made her freeze up.

the snowgrave end is really eerie too. the idea of manipulating noelle into killing people—killing berdly, while she's under the premise of everything being a dream, and afterwards is so out of it and exhausted she just walks around by herself until she eventually finds a way out. (the way berdly's dead corpse just lies there at the table and no one notices)

[friskibitz]

about player theory

ok i’m gonna get real here.

i just want to talk about my experiences and the unique way i relate to these stories, and why it’s the reason that player theory upsets me. i don’t intend to antagonize or push others around, i just want my voice out there. i just hope that people can relate to this if they feel the same way, or understand even if they don’t. also, i want to make it clear that what i say about the theory in this post are entirely my personal feelings on it.

so if you don’t know me, just know that, well, that “living embodiment of hyperempathy” thing in my bio isn’t that much of a joke. i experience really strong hyperempathy, especially towards fictional characters, which will be the point of this post.

in my experience, hyperempathy doesn’t just mean there’s an increase in the intensity of empathy i feel towards others (although that is true for me), but it’s an increase in the scope as well, like i feel this not only towards irl people but also stuff like toys or even characters. and honestly, for the intensity i feel, it’s pretty hard to get into a lot of new media for a lot of reasons relating to this.

so, Undertale is... pretty much a perfect game for me. i think it kinda inherently appeals to people with hyperempathy, because it inherently allows for a lot of kindness and understanding towards fictional characters, to the point where there really is some sort of positive connection between player and character. in fact, i feel like it even encourages this sort of emotional connection. so yeah this stuff basically makes UT perfect for me. i have the potential to be help and be kind to these characters, i can actually help do things for them, i can help get the best ending for them, and i can it take to the point where i really refuse to replay the game unless i buy a new copy of it. and because this feeling runs so deep, i really feel Real emotions towards these characters, almost like they’re people.

and this feeling... really carries on to the apparent follow-up game, Deltarune. my attachment for the characters really hasn’t dwindled here, if anything it’s grown more, both for Deltarune’s characters and Undertale’s as well.

and so... this is where i need to be honest, and i’m sorry that this may end up being controversial, but it really makes me worried and cautious around a lot of speculation and theorymaking surrounding Deltarune. it’s why i’m worried about the implications of Ralsei being a sort of construct from feelings, because i don’t know if he’ll eventually be handled by the narrative with the same level of respect in terms of how “real” he is compared to other characters. it’s why i even worry about ideas of Deltarune being a sort of “created” universe, an idea i helped create, because i don’t know if it’ll be eventually treated by the narrative as “real” as the Undertale universe is. and it’s especially why i’m averse to Deltarune’s commonly-named player theory.

player theory is the idea that the player is indeed that red SOUL controlling Kris. the problem with that for me starts with the fact that Kris doesn’t look like they like to be possessed. in fact it looks like they really dislike it, given their actions in the ending of Chapter 1. and of course, i don’t blame them, it’s like someone’s taking their place in life. but the problem for me is... what does that make me, then? if player theory comes true in the narrative, what have i done? i started out the game controlling Kris, taking their place in their life without even knowing it, and it’s just like. something like that, i don’t know how to take back.

and  i want to address something else. i have my own theories and such, and this isn’t the place for that, but i believe that alternatively, the red SOUL is Frisk. and i know that there’s a concern there that Frisk and Kris might be at odds, and i understand that, i don’t want that at all either. whether the SOUL is Frisk or any other character, i don’t want whoever they are and Kris to be at odds at all, but the difference is that they’re both characters. whoever the red SOUL is, they were probably placed in this situation beyond their control, and as a character then they and Kris have the opportunity and ability to work things out through the narrative in a way that i can’t with Kris. if player theory is true, and unless Toby somehow figures a way to do this, i can’t talk to them directly, i can’t explain myself the way i need to, i can’t actually resolve this properly, and i’m not gonna lie this guilt is kinda going to haunt me. i don’t want to feel like this, especially for something i didn’t have control over.

so... yeah, i really hope player theory isn’t true. ^^; Deltarune is really a mysterious thing to everyone, and who knows what might happen. but i want to speak out my feelings on this. with player theory being as popular as it is, and with me not knowing very many people who feel this way, i just want to help people either relate to or understand the way i feel.

to be clear again, i also don’t want to push people around, but pleeease tag it, as i intend to completely avoid it. and also... please don’t assume player theory is true? i know it’s prevalent, but that really doesn’t mean it’s true. like just say “the red soul”  or something instead of “the player” if you’re not talking about something related to player theory specifically. like seriously, i ran into it on a post about the utdr kids being nonbinary. i just wanna experience content without being affected.

thank you for reading!

[jaypelt]

Y’know, I may as well start on Ralsei and stuff surrounding that ask earlier. Because, frankly, there’s so much to say about Deltarune that I’m not even sure where to start. So, more under the cut.

Now, what I mean about “I wish there was a bit more to him” is, well, exactly that. I absolutely love him from a design standpoint, he’s so fucking cute and adorable and some of the interactions you have with him are so, so good. Thank god for Toby letting the first thing you do with him, is fuckin’ hug em. That moment immediately caught me, hook, line, and sinker. However. The thing with Ralsei... is that he’s mostly the sweet, accommodating, and innocent type with not much else to him. Not that I can’t love a character like him still, but he doesn’t have almost any times where he really steps outside of that. Nor does he have much of a dynamic with any particular character besides the same sort of thing, not even with the human. Sure you can give him the bow and hug him, but... that’s mostly it. Ralsei talks, you listen. For the most part. In fact, that one who probably fosters the strongest dynamics with both the human and Ralsei, is Susie. Hell, Susie practically has the strongest dynamic with *everyone*. Her times with Lancer are hilarious and endearing, the starting point of her relationship with the human is a bit trepidatious and leaves quite an impression, especially in contrast to her behavior by the end of the game. It’s clear she’s a better person and cares for the human, striking out at the King who repeats the same words she said to them at the beginning of the game. Then the conflict of sorts between her and Ralsei is there too. She’s arguably the one character he steps outside of his usual polite and nice attitude for, just a bit, while still leaning on his accommodating nature. One of my favorite moments of his has to be when he actually confronts her after she just made things more difficult with the Dog Checker boss(I don’t remember its name >.>). Like “Hey uh, you actually didn’t help. Like, at all. In fact, you made things worse and have only been making everything harder to deal with. Like, can you try being nice? Is that word in your vocabulary? Do you understand that concept?” Though, not exactly like that :p, still more with his polite attitude. And you have their exchange in the elevator. It’s genuine, and we really get to see Susie step things up between the group. But it’s also like the human may as well not be there at all, until the end, for how much they’re involved. It’s probably something to do with that whole “you don’t actually have a choice” thing the game enforces, but still. It really is a shame, because it would’ve been perfect to have some kind of exchanges, especially with Ralsei. Because despite him being the character that probably spends the most amount of time with you, there’s not much of an actually personal or strong dynamic between you two. At least, maybe not in comparison to that of the relationship between “Kris” and Susie. It doesn’t even feel right to say that due to the human’s nature, it make sense that that isn’t there, because then you’d have to question the relationship between them and Susie, y’know? There also isn’t much shown of what Ralsei may actually want. Sure he wants to do the whole hero things and save everyone and help people and be nice, but that’s almost all you ever see and we don’t get to learn much about him. Where did he really come from? How is he a prince with no subjects? What’s left for him after the ending? And I know it was coming, but did he really have to be a goat? So much more is told and implied with Susie’s(and Lancer’s) development than anything pertaining to him. Of course, those are probably bound to be answered at a later point. Deltarune had many, many, many loose ends and questions it left over. Not even in the same fashion as Undertale originally did, either. And that’s another thing, while the goat thing was coming, I still personally don’t care much for it. I prefer his design before the reveal and have kind of had enough of a character I like being overshadowed by the fact that they’re a goat. khemFloweykhem. But who knows, we’ll see where it goes. Maybe I’ll change my mind. And even with all that, I still really like Ralsei. Because despite what could be considered his shallow character by this point, I still really enjoyed that and loved playing through the game with em. You do still cooperate with him, have those cute little moments between you two, and I’m a sucker for cuties. And y’know what? I can find enjoyment in the purely nice characters just as well as those who are problematic and irredeemable assholes. ....Honestly, I think some of this could’ve been fixed if there was some option to talk with your party members throughout the adventure. I mean, think about it. You could get more interactions and dialogue and characters bits via actually talking to the people you’re traveling with. Fancy that.