#they hate the idea of Elia Rhaenys or Aegons liking him cause that ruins their perception that he's the devil

[fromtheseventhhell]

Why do people are convinced little Rhaenys hated her father Rhaegar? Where is the evidence?

It's cause they're working with backward logic, confirmation bias, and heavy assumptions about the story. So Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon were killed and Rhaegar left with Lyanna -> so Rhaegar must have been responsible for their deaths -> and since he must have been responsible for their deaths, that means he's a terrible father + husband who treats Elia and their children poorly (and let's call him racist on top of it for some extra flavor) -> and since he's a terrible father + husband, that must mean Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon hated him. Actual evidence from the text? Who needs that, we can logically assume all of this from the single fact that Rhaegar left with Lyanna...it's definitely not just something people who already hated him came up with to justify themselves.

[gameofthronesrenlyxlorasforever]

Jon's Targaryen name

Potential *****SPOILERS *****

There's a rumor floating around that Jon has a Targaryen name and that's what Lyanna whispered to Ned. I never particularly liked that notion. Lyanna wouldn't chose a Targaryen name. As for Rhaegar, I'm convinced by the theory that, by the time Lyanna was pregnant, he thought the third child would be a girl. He already had an Aegon and a Rhaenys. He needed a Visenya to complete the set. So he wouldn't have thought of a male name.

The worst rumor regarding this mess is that Lyanna whispered the name Aegon. If that happens, then d&d are truly despicable. Or if it's somehow GRRM's idea, (I seriously can't imagine it would be) then he's either not the amazing storyteller we know him to be, or he's writing Rhaegar as mad like his father. Why would someone give the name of his son to his new child? Why would Lyanna agree? If she didn't find the idea revolting, she was either a horrible person or dumb. From what we know about them, Lyanna and Rhaegar were not stupid. Reckless, perhaps, but that's not quite the same thing. Naming Jon Aegon would be a horrible move personally and politically.

It's a blatant replacement of the heir of the crown prince. It's snubbing Elia and her children in the worst way possible. I've seen the disgusting argument that Elia and her children don't matter. That it's ok to replace them because Rhaegar didn't love Elia and Rhaegar and Lyanna were True Love™. Whoever said that is super insensitive and completely misunderstood the world of the story. It's a medieval-ish world. Powerful people don't marry for love. The ones who do, like Robb on the show, ruin things with the decision not to marry for an alliance. Yes, there can be an overlap between romance and a marriage for a suitable alliance, such as Ned and Catelyn and Jon and Dany, but it's not how the nobles of Westeros view marriage. If there's love, that's very lucky, but it's not a prerequisite. Or a requirement. It's not necessary for a marriage at all. By modern standards, we know this arrangement makes people unhappy. That has nothing to do with the world the characters in this story inhabit. Applying modern views to fantasy worlds is a ridiculous way of looking at them.

I'd like to believe Rhaegar and Lyanna weren't evil, but if they named Jon Aegon, they were horrible people. I used to kinda root for Lyanna and Rhaegar. I still kinda like the book version of them, but I find it hard to like their show counterparts and we haven't even properly spent time with them. If only Gilly read that the archmaester married Prince Raggar to someone, in spite of the fact he already had a wife. They could have just as easily gone the polygamy route. That makes way more sense. Or better yet, leave Jon as a bastard. He's struggled too much with his bastard identity for the issue to magically disappear by making him a legitimate son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

The better rumor is that Lyanna whispered the name Jaehaerys. That's way better, but not simply because it doesn't ruin the child's, Lyanna's and Rhaegar's relationship with Rhaegar's family (Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon).

Side note - Dorne and basically every noble would hate the idea of Jon being named Aegon. It's a feudal society. Peace hinges on clear inheritance. Naming the new child the same as the heir signals that succession doesn't matter. That the wives and heirs can be thrown aside without repercussion. This would mean that a marriage treaty does not guarantee anything.

Naming him Jaehaerys works better because it gives Jon yet another parallel to his true love, Daenerys. Rhaella named Dany what she did because she wanted her daughter to represent the same thing the first Daenerys did. Peace after a difficult war. The name was meant to signal to Viserys and Dany, and all their supporters, that Rhaella had a clear idea of what she wanted them to stand for: unity and peace. A just rule under a Targaryen monarch, restored to the dynasty's rightful throne.

Second side note - the first Daenerys was the wife of the ruling Prince of Dorne. Naming her baby after a Targaryen consort of Dorne implies that she wanted Viserys and Dany to be friendly with Dorne and have Sunspear's support. Rhaella must have adored Elia and Rhaenys and Aegon. She would want Dorne to always be an ally to her House.

Lyanna's husband Rhaegar and her brothers fought against each other in a war. If anyone wanted peace, it was our she-wolf. Why wouldn't she fight for peace with her dying breath? If she said Jaehaerys, it implies exactly what Dany's name implies. Peace and a brighter future. There was a well-loved Targaryen king by the name Jaehaerys. Lyanna would want her child to stand for peace. Naming him Aegon would only cause contention. Why would any Stark give her child enemies simply by giving him a name that would anger everyone in the realm? That's not the kind of people the Starks are. If Lyanna whispered a Targaryen name, Jaehaerys is the one which makes her look better. Aegon is the one which makes her and Rhaegar seem vile. But whatever the outcome, Jon will always be Jon Snow. He will always be a Stark. He will be Ice and Dany will be Fire.

[whiteladyofrohann]

Honestly, i think Rhaegar and Lyanna are the worst couple in GOT now. Rhaegar abandoned her wife and remarried Lyanna, yes they got divorced first but Elia is just pity, she really deserves better! Last night episode totally surprised me. Lyanna named her child Aegon, same name as Elia's child, and Elia is her husband ex-wife! Really there are a bunch of Targaryen's name and you choose Aegon? This is just ridiculous, I can't accept how horrible it is, D&D just ruin Rhaegar and Lyanna!

Hey anon :). I don’t think they’re the worst couple in GoT, far from it. There are several relationships that are just plain disgusting, weird and a lot worse than Rhaegar and Lyanna, but they’re all not canon. If we’re talking about canon couples, then besides Jaime and Cersei, I’d have to agree with you. There’s nothing gross or anything about them, and if it were different, they could be a good couple. But the fact he was married, she was due to be married, and the war that followed means it’s not a good couple. People ship it of course, I just personally don’t.

Obviously the world of GoT is fake, but its based on medieval times, and in medieval times if you were a noble, you had to do what duty told you, and that included marrying people you probably didn’t want to. Lyanna would’ve been miserable married to Robert, but I can’t see how much better her life would’ve been if she had lived and stayed married to Rhaegar. Most of the kingdoms would hate her, and her brothers probably wouldn’t respect her anymore. 

I agree that Elia deserved so much better, and I’m disappointed in Lyanna for naming Jon Aegon. Yes, it would’ve been Rhaegar’s idea, but Rhaegar was dead at that point and naming him Aegon is a massive kick in the teeth to Elia, a woman who didn’t do anything wrong, who, unlike Lyanna, did her duty.

I often feel for Lyanna, because if she died at 16, that makes her 14/15 when she runs off with Rhaegar, so she was a child. But I still feel that her decision was incredibly irresponsible and it led to the deaths of her father and brother, and Rhaegar’s own children.

What disappointed me most about the show, is in the book, Rhaegar actually cared for Rhaenys and Aegon. He originally thought Aegon was the Prince Who Was Promised. I’ve never been a Rhaegar fan, but although he didn’t love Elia, he loved his children so it’s annoying how the show make him seem like he doesn’t care. And Rhaenys and Aegon do exist in the show unlike characters like Arianne, because Oberyn mentioned them, and I’m pretty sure Thoros did at some point.

To be honest though, they just aren’t the couple for me. Their love story certainly isn’t the greatest in ASOIAF because of the damage it caused. And I don’t believe that people who knew each other for such a little time have any justification for the deaths that followed

[samwpmarleau]

Why do people want Jon to be legitimate so bad? It's almost like they're buying into the stigma that being a bastard is bad and something to fix. And like you said, it's as simple as Rhaegar was married, Lyanna betrothed, and polygamy illegal. He's a bastard. And I really doubt Lyanna would be so naive (well her running away in itself is naive but different context imo) as to believe 'marrying' Rhaegar before her gods would somehow be noble or recognized.

Oh man. I have THINGS TO SAY.

For many people, I think he’s just a special snowflake and they want him to be legitimate so that he’s not “tainted” by bastardy or whatever and he gets to have Everything He’s Always Wanted™.

But also, I think it’s for how much of an identity crisis Jon has had with being a bastard and the irony that this scenario would bring to it. We’re inside Jon’s head so thoroughly and thus are keenly aware of how for his entire life he’s been at odds with his status, especially since he’s not the typical bastard. Catelyn is frigid towards him not because he’s illegitimate, but because Ned brought him home and has raised him alongside Robb, completely ignoring the shame it brings upon his wife.

Yet, Jon’s not the same as Robb — he has the same basic education, but he’s never been in line for Winterfell and by virtue of his very birth there was always an insurmountable divide between him and his siblings. Except for as much as Jon dislikes his place, he abides by it well — even when he’s presented with what he used to dream of (though note it says “later, when he was older, he had been ashamed of those dreams … even to dream otherwise seemed disloyal”), to become an actual Stark, he refuses it because he knows it would be a farce and that Winterfell belongs to Sansa, not him.

It stems too from him having no idea who his mother was. Obviously Ned can’t tell him the truth, but he doesn’t even tell him a lie. Was his mother a whore? A merchant’s daughter? Ashara Dayne? Wylla? Who was she? Jon (understandably) desperately wants her to be a respectable woman, but he’s told absolutely nothing about her so even that is merely a hope.

“Words won’t make your mother a whore. She was what she was, and nothing Toad says can change that. You know, we have men on the Wall whose mothers were whores.”

Not my mother, Jon thought stubbornly. He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind.

The sad thing here is that we know Jon’s mother was beautiful, highborn, and kind, but Jon doesn’t. And he thinks of this constantly:

I will ask him about my mother, he resolved. I am a man now, it is past time he told me. Even if she was a whore, I don’t care, I want to know.

He wanted to say that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love, yet inside a small sly voice whispered, He fathered a bastard, where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of his duty to her, he will not even say her name.

Interestingly, his mentions of her fade as the series goes on, as he accepts who he is. He didn’t have any friends in Winterfell save (most of) his family, yet at the Wall he’s surrounded by people he considers not only friends, but brothers. Who actually like him. Then, where once he had thought he could never achieve any high position, he is elected Lord Commander. Sure, that command is of the Night’s Watch and not Winterfell, but the position has been held by many respectable men, and no one ranks higher than he does. He is in charge. People listen to him.

Enter that irony. For five books we have Jon slowly growing into himself, finding love (even if it’s dubious consent love) and friendship and honor and repute despite being a bastard, then we find out his parents were not only married but his mother was a Stark and his father was the Targaryen crown prince. If circumstances were different, Jon would have grown up as third in line to the Iron Throne behind Rhaegar and Aegon. But that could only happen if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, 100% legally, and if they could prove it and/or anyone actually believed them — it’s not enough that they simply had him, because then he could only ever be a legitimized bastard, who may have come before the girls in succession, we don’t really have precedent to say, but may equally have come dead last after Aegon, Viserys, Rhaenys, and Dany (possibly even Rhaella?).

They also focus on the Prince That Was Promised prophecy, and claim that he must be legitimate because then that title wouldn’t fit. This despite the fact that Dany is likely the “Prince” That Was Promised — 

“No one ever looked for a girl,” [Aemon] said. “It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. … Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.”

— and that Jon would still have princely blood even if he were a bastard. Both because Rhaegar lived and died as one, and because if everyone had lived and Jon were legitimized, he would then also be a prince, though not trueborn.

And we mustn’t forget that much of this bullshit has to do with people’s perceptions of Elia as well. Everyone and their grandmother says she would have been fine with it because she’s ~Dornish~ and Dornish people take ~paramours~ and so she wouldn’t care.

Never mind that the last time a Martell married a Targaryen, a Targaryen bastard set off five generations of war, the last of which occurred right on Elia’s doorstep and in which (probably) her uncle Lewyn earned his stripes.

Never mind that Rhaegar was not Dornish and by using the “paramour” excuse he would be disgustingly appropriating a culture to which he doesn’t belong.

Never mind that Rhaegar fathering a bastard, even an un-legitimized one, would present an extreme threat to Elia’s children. She’s Dornish, people are racist as hell towards her people (not to mention ableist towards her specifically), and love the Starks — what happens if Westeros decides one day they’re not into having a half-Dornish king and instead back Jon? What happens if Lyanna isn’t content with her son playing second fiddle?

What happens if Rhaegar decides Jon is a better choice, especially if he changes his mind about Aegon having the song of ice and fire, and either sets Aegon and Rhaenys aside or declares Jon his heir over Aegon? Brandon was betrothed to a Tully, Ned was warded with Robert in the Vale, and Tywin hated Aerys — that’s a ridiculously powerful bloc that could oppose Elia’s children, who would have only Dorne and maybe a handful of other houses in support.

Elia would never be on board with that. I could see her putting up with Rhaegar having a mistress, because almost every guy in this series has one, but not a highborn one, and not having a child on one. And the way he went about it? By abandoning a newly postpartum Elia who nearly died giving birth to an heir who looked exactly like him, running off with the 15-year-old only daughter of a Lord Paramount, not leaving so much as a note or letting Lyanna tell her family she’s all right, disappearing for over a year, not returning even when Brandon and Rickard were killed or when war broke out or when his wife and children were taken hostage, then being so overconfident about winning on the Trident that he lost in gruesome fashion.

He caused not only the downfall of his own house, but crippled the Starks (Brandon, Rickard, and Lyanna all die, then Benjen takes the black shortly after the war) and the Dornish (10,000 spears were extorted from Doran, Elia was raped and murdered, their children were brutally killed, Lewyn was killed in battle, Arthur was killed, and Ashara committed suicide), put the Baratheons and Lannisters in power, and ruined the prophecy as he’d interpreted it.

Had Rhaegar not been so politically braindead, none of that would have happened. So no, Elia would have hated him for that, not signed off on it. Fuck that noise. People often talk about paramours as though every Dornish person takes one and that it’s not cheating, which is simply not true. Oberyn had one, but Oberyn was not married, the occasional additional liaisons he took were not only approved by Ellaria, but they participated in those liaisons together, and he and Ellaria were in a committed relationship for 14-plus years. 

We also really don’t have that many examples of Dornish people taking paramours at all:

Ellaria

Neither she nor Oberyn were married, and they were both completely devoted and faithful to one another.

Old Lord Yronwood’s that Oberyn slept with

Which, incidentally, we don’t know that Yronwood was cheating at all. Perhaps Yronwood was a widower, or his wife was fine with it, or his wife joined in, we don’t know the details.

Lewyn

Hey guess what! He wasn’t married, and was completely faithful to her, exactly like Oberyn.

Daemon Sand

There were rumors that he and Oberyn were lovers (which, gross, on so many levels), but we have only the one mention and no proof. Arianne maybe counts here as well, depending on your definition.

Drinkwater twins

Cletus suggested Quentyn take one of them as a paramour after he was married, but again we don’t know the details of that hypothetical, and Quentyn rejected it anyway.

Many Dornishmen took women of the Rhoynar for paramours; however, presumably that would have been more for purposes of alliance and to permanently join the two races.

Sylvenna Sand

She was a whore in King’s Landing who was the paramour of Essie, who was also a whore, so yet again, no adultery there.

Now, the text often refers to mistresses as paramours, but they are used interchangeably outside of Dorne. Within Dorne, they’re a separate thing. And, as you can see from the above, no one except maybe Lord Yronwood was married.

Rhaegar was. With two small children. Lyanna was betrothed. Their affair was full-blown adultery, none of this “paramour” business. Once more I say: fuck that noise.

Also, like … GRRM once said Rhaegar was a “lovestruck prince” and Barristan said he “loved his lady Lyanna” (neither sentiment is one I believe), but we’re never told anything of Lyanna’s thoughts on the matter. I am baffled as to where people get the idea she would agree to a marriage with Rhaegar.

She wanted out of her betrothal to Robert because he was not faithful, why would she enter into polygamy?? Why would she agree to get pregnant at 15?? She’s compared to Arya constantly — can you see Arya ever doing all of that?? It makes no sense!

Not that they could even get married. The Faith prohibits polygamy, and we have no examples of people in the North (save beyond the Wall, which is not in the Seven Kingdoms) ever having polygamous marriages either. So even if there were some kind of “ceremony,” it would never hold up.

Anyway. People are dumb.