#there's a lot more i COULD say about my justice league/justice league unlimited rewatch than i have been saying

[navree]

I saw your post about the greek Tragedies and the greens and then the ask thay followed about madeline Miller and I have no choice to follow you. Please keep doing lord's work and gatekeep Greek history because there's way too many 'takes' about Greek mythology 😭

Have a good week! <333 🤍🪐

The gatekeep quest is working, this is why I fight, that's for you Yiayia 😘

But in all seriousness, this is nice thanks so much!! Hope you're prepared for a lot of rambling about multiple pieces of media of varying quality, classic lit horror novels (the gatekeeping Greek mythology quest is only edged out in tenacity by the "Victor Frankenstein did nothing wrong" quest), and several historical figures that no one else particularly cares about.

Hope you have a lovely week as well!!! <3

[clay-cuttlefish]

All of Vic's cartoon appearances.

DC Showcase: Blue Beetle

A 60s-styled short using the Charlton incarnations of Vic and Ted, plus Captain Atom and Nightshade.

I'm on board with Vic being an objectivist for the sake of a janky throwback. There is no Rorschach energy here, this is entirely a parody of Ditko.

The comedy's not super inspired but hey, it's 15 minutes, it doesn't overstay its welcome. Look at these losers go.

Batman: The Brave and the Bold - Mystery in Space!

Vic is so shaped. Just a little guy.

Most of these teasers are meant to show off who the guest hero is and what they do, but not Vic. He's just chilling. Zero explanation of what his deal is other than "guy who is Around."

BatB - The Knights of Tomorrow!

Of all the heroes who have been on BatB, Vic is probably the least qualified to go to Apokolips. Why did he agree to this.

Unsurprisingly he falls in lava. Sad. Well there are other heroes.

BatB - Darkseid Descending!

And then he singlehandedly saves the world from Darkseid while most of the Justice League International blows up. King.

I love BatB's commitment to weird little dudes. It plays fast and loose with characterization (it's a kids show that's mostly about Batman and does it with everyone, I'm not gonna nitpick it) but it's got a lot of interesting randos.

I think this is the only time Jaime and Vic appear together? Actually appear, not just as nonspeaking cameos in a big event.

Scooby-Doo! & Batman: The Brave and the Bold

I watched this while babysitting and I had a great time. It's a kids movie, but hey, I have Scooby-Doo nostalgia and a soft spot for campy Batman, this does both very well.

Vic shows up, is annoying on purpose, and gets his shit rocked and his identity stolen. Extremely Vic behaviour.

Justice League Unlimited - Fearful Symmetry

I know this is a beloved portrayal. Jeffery Combs' performance is well regarded for a reason. It's the biggest adaptation Vic's ever had. It acknowledges his comic connections to other characters. I get it. I just do not enjoy him as the baseless conspiracy theorist and it drives me up the wall that it's the best he's got.

Like I'm sorry but he would not fucking say any of this. He's annoying and bad at superheroics for many other reasons but he is extremely aware of the real roots of corruption, he's not going to be repeating antisemitic conspiracy shit. Even when he genuinely sucks he sucks in very specific ways.

JLU - Double Date

Points for being partly based on Cry for Blood.

It makes me so sad that I don't like this take on Vic and Helena's relationship. I wish I did.

JLU - Question Authority

I do actually like Vic getting deeply upset by the thought that the bad future is predestined and trying to throw himself under the bus for it. That feels fitting to me even if the details aren't.

There's a version of this story that lives in my brain where Vic is more of his stubborn, no-nuance early reporter self, and he breaks into the secret government facility to try and leak everything to the world only to get his ass kicked instantly by Captain Atom.

JLU - Grudge Match

This is the world's dumbest nitpick but Vic fucks. It's the one part of being in a relationship he doesn't suck at. I have no real problems with this sequence, it's funny and does the conspiracy bit better than his main appearances, but I discovered while rewatching that this is a thing I have opinions about and where else am I going to put these extremely stupid thoughts.

JLU - Destroyer

It's just rude that Vic is in the suitup montage but has his mask on the whole time. Let him transform.

I liked his JLU episodes a hell of a lot less this time through than when I first watched them. It's generally a good show, but knowing that this version of Vic is the most accessible one is incredibly frustrating, and the overall strength means that I'm annoyed about missed potential. BatB was never going to be the serious showcase of his nuance or whatever, but JLU could have been an incredible adaptation, and it just isn't for him. Sorry JLU fans.

[fialleril]

that post about the jlu sequels had me giggling with excitement, esp that episode idea with wally inviting shayera to central city!!

okay i sent the previous ask about halfway though the post and let me tell you that i would give my left kidney to see said post realized

Same, anon. Same.

We never actually got a full Wally and Shayera buddy episode in the show. They had all sorts of great moments, and even referred to each other as siblings, which is so great, but I still kinda wish they’d had a whole episode.

Also, even though the JL/JLU fandom pretty much universally agrees that John, Shayera, and Wally are the “little trinity,” there’s never actually an episode that focuses on the three of them as a team and their relationships with one another as a trio. We got John and Wally episodes (but only in Justice League, and I always miss their team dynamic when I get to Unlimited in my rewatch), and of course we got John and Shayera episodes. But I want a trio episode, dang it.

It’s really unfortunate that Michael Rosenbaum was unavailable for the first season of JLU, because probably the best opportunity for a Shayera and Wally buddy episode would have been when she first returns to the League, and she’s feeling awkward and self-conscious and honestly pretty lonely because she doesn’t really have relationships with any of the founders anymore and she doesn’t know any of the newbies and everybody distrusts her and she doesn’t blame them. And then Wally comes dashing up and just welcomes her back with a hug, without a hint of hesitation, just genuinely thrilled to have her back, and Shayera’s just so relieved to have this one person who actually wants to be around her and who treats her completely normally.

Like it should be really awkward because the last time she saw him he was giving her a hug then, too, but it was because she was leaving the League. And before that he was pinned to the ground by a gravity beam in a Thanagarian prison because she told them how to exploit his weaknesses. And sure, she already knows his secret identity, but she knows it because she was a spy and she knows what his face looks like because he, Bruce, and Clark were forced to go undercover as their civilian identities because of what she did. (Later, Wally will always tell her it wasn’t her fault, that she was caught in the ultimate no win situation and that she always did what she believed was right on the basis of the information she had at the time, but Shayera’s not inclined to agree with that herself and sometimes she could almost hate him because she knows that he does believe it, sincerely and wholeheartedly.)

I imagine it went something like this: on Shayera’s first night back on the Watchtower, as she's settling into her bland, hotel-like new room, and debating whether to brave the mess hall for dinner or just go hungry, Wally suddenly shows up at her door with a stack of movies and like ten boxes of pizza. (Nine for him, one for her, or so he claims, but he ends up eating half of hers too.) And she lets him in because really what else can you possibly do when faced with a grinning Flash who looks a fraction of a second away from dropping pizza all over the hallway. Then he zips in, sets the pizza and movies down, whips off his mask and says, “Hi, Wally West, Central City police lab, nice to meet you.” (She’s so surprised by the show of trust that it takes her a while to realize it was an even bigger show than she first thought. Sure, the other founders all know his name and therefore could probably find out all about his civilian life, and she’s sure Batman knows more about Wally than Wally knows himself, but the fact remains that...well. He never voluntarily chose to share his name or his face with her, not before, but there was nothing forcing him to tell her what he does for a day job, especially because just knowing what his day job is kind of pokes a hole in his Obfuscating Stupidity act, and he’s got to realize that and he’s got to realize that she’ll realize that, and the more she thinks about that the more she thinks that, actually, this is kind of a big deal.)

Of course we didn’t get to see any of that in the show. But I do think it’s at least partly implied, because Shayera and Wally are a lot closer in seasons 2 and 3 of JLU than they were in JL. Their banter has become a lot more explicitly sibling-like, and they hang out casually on the Watchtower in a way that Shayera, at least, really doesn’t do with anyone else. She tries to help him get a date, and she knows he needs help getting a date because he turns into a giant helpless dweeb when he’s actually interested in someone, and both of those things are a big change from JL. Hawkgirl teased Flash about his inability to get a date and it was fun and playful teasing but she did actually think he was a wannabe playboy and he did actually want her to think that. That’s changed in JLU. Shayera seems to know that it’s basically all an act, and Wally is perfectly comfortable with her knowing that.

And, of course, she’s the one who pulls him out of the Speed Force. Which I think is not something you’d actually expect, if you only knew the characters from Justice League and hadn’t seen any of their interactions in Unlimited. On the basis of JL alone, I think you’d expect it to be John or J’onn who drags Wally back from the Speed Force. And J’onn is the one to sense that he’s still alive, and John is the first person to grab Shayera’s arm and try to call Wally back*, but it’s still Shayera who plunges her hand into a dangerous vortex of unknown power without a second’s hesitation because that’s her bro.

( *I also think it’s a nice subtle touch that Shayera and John are the two who make a point of calling out to Wally individually: Shayera reaches in and grabs him and calls him by name, and then John chimes in with “I’m here too,” and again calls him by his name. And then Supes adds, “We’re all here.” And, idk, it’s just kind of a great way of indicating, at one and the same time, that they all love him and are doing everything they can to save him, but also that the close relationship Wally has with Shayera and John is of a different kind than his friendship with the others.)

tl;dr: I have a lot of feelings about Shayera & Wally and about Shayera & Wally & John.

[thenixkat]

Thoughts on the cartoon Static Shock

So these notes n’ stuff was part of my 4th? rewatch of the series. I’d watched it once to actually finished the show since I never caught all the eps when it was airing on tv, another time when I was on a Static Shock kick, and the 3rd time streaming it with friends to see what they thought of it. Each time I picked up on more stuff like character and events, but this time I gave it an actual serious watch to get details, timeline, and a solid handle on characterization and abilities, and plots that I can work on for my fanfic. And taking off the nostalgia goggles and giving it a real hard critical look?

It’s not great.

It’s about average like it still makes it to my top ten superhero shows but its like probably number 7 on that list. It is still absolutely my favorite show in the DCAU; but ya gotta take into account that I don’t like Superman, I hate Justice League b/c it’s very much a drama and its ep should have just been released as hour-long things, I refuse to watch Batman Beyond, and I prefer The Batman over Batman The Animated Series. What I’m saying is literally the only other thing in the DCAU that I’ve watched and liked was Justice League Unlimited and even that I have issues with. 

If I’m ranking DC shows that I like I’d go:

1. Teen Titans

2. Black Lightning

3. Static Shock

4. Legion of Super-Heros

5. The Batman

6. Justice League Unlimited

So what do I like about Static Shock?

Black people. Like, holy fuck there’s so many Black people in this show. With different skin tones, hairstyles, eye colors, body types. Got em as good guys, bad guys, and neutral parties. Got a Black girl as the protag’s main love interest. Introduced a slew of original Black heroes and villains to the pasty as fuck DCAU, even if the rest of that universe likes to forget that Static Shock takes place in it. 

Just, I love dorky science types like Virgil and Richie? Also, I like their friendship very much. That is some good shit right there even if I hate the ship and thus don’t interact with most of the fandom b/c of it. And paying close attention to it added a lot more complexity and depth to the characters than I’d known was there.

Also, I don’t normally like female characters, but Shebang is good. I like her very much and I will not forgive the writers for “She-Back!”. Also, Sharon is a boss. Daisy is the best girlfriend and could literally do so much better than Virgil, that boy is blessed to have her.

And I do like to see superhero noobs who have no fucking clue what they're doing and keep trying their best. And I like more stuff where like the hero does more than just fight people? And has a life outside of heroing?

The show is also just, genuinely entertaining to me? Like both as an adult and as a kid its fun to watch. It's something that younger me tried to catch on tv.

My problems with the show?

This show does not do right by its female characters. Frieda drops from the face of the earth for long stretches of time when by all rights she should appear at least as often as Daisy. The show forgets that Frieda and the main boys are very close friends. The main girls are never brought in on the loop as well as their intelligence gets completely underfunded that they don’t figure out the loop exists in the first place. Others like Trina and Shenice just fucking vanish, much like Frieda, even when they shouldn’t. Sharon spent an episode being blatently ooc. Also, Virgil’s mom literally got fridged for drama and male character development. And doing a bit of reserch it also fucked up a femal character from a different show and then killed her off in a brutal graphic manner.

There are plenty of spots where the writing is either noticibly lazy or outright incompetent. Especially in the aformentioned area in handling characters. Other times there’s the plot of an ep being pushed in a direction that doesn’t make sense given what we’re being shown, or don’t make sense going by just... fucking basic ass phsiscs, or doesn’t make sense b/c it contradicts things we’ve previously been shown.

Speaking of that! The lack of continuity very much hurts the show. Characters at the very least should learn from previous experiences. Past events should effect the present and the future.

Also, I’m not sure what’s at fult for it, either the Y7 rating or the writers’ lack of nads, but the show ignoring many many deaths and how they’d logicly effect characters also robbed it of some of what it could have been. For the same reason is probably why the gang and coruption of city officials and such dropped from the show so quickly. Its possible that I would have not noticed this as much if I never watched Black Lightning (which is fucking good btw) and seen it done right.

And as a show for kids some of the episode have fucking gods aweful messages or undertones. I will not forgive the use of the ‘what measure is a nonhuman’ trope in “Toys In The Hood”. Nor will I forgive the narritive fucking around with characters and their relationships to punish Shenice for being a confidant Black girl in “She-Back!”. And I don’t know who the fuck thought that telling kids that people who break the law don’t deserve human rights and its ok to use them is human guinea pigs was ok in “Wet N’ Wild”. And did no one stop to think that maybe they shouldn’t portay a dude poisoning the community of an in-universe predominantly Black comminity with largly untested and potentially dangerous experimental chemicals on the reasoning that “most of them are thugs” as a good guy. Idk, someone shoulda stopped and thought a little bit about that in the entire time it took the ep to get made. WHAT THE FUCK WRITERS.

What I would change?

-Have Frieda and Daisy in on the loop. Frieda either figures it out or is told in the 2nd ep and Daisy figures it out in her debute ep. Sharon figure it out durring ‘Brother-Sister Act’ and she isn’t written wildly out of character. Have the 3 of them become superheros, expand the fucking team.

-Remember that Shenice and Trina fucking exist? 

-Remember that all of the other villians that nly show up in 1 ep still exist and would likely be able to escape from prison about as easily as the onse that do get to make multible apperences.

-Remember that BacPac isn’t a backpack and can act with his own agency.

-Scrap 90% of ‘Toys In The Hood’.

-Have characters actually effected by people they knew dying in the Big Bang? I. E. Hotstreak’s entire posse never showed up again and he should feel some fucking way about that. Virgil and Wade had known eachother for years.

-Do something with the fact that Brainiac did fucky shit to Richie that should have lasting and possibly traumatic concequences. Also all of the nanites, where are they?

-Have Dr. Todd be a villian and the heros and villians working together to stop his plot b/c holy shit its unethical.

-Just... so many things. Little improvements.

[aion-rsa]

Ed Asner: The Most Memorable Animated Roles From the TV Legend

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We lost a great one this weekend with Ed Asner. The lovably gruff actor died at 91. Asner was a prolific actor, not only having well over 400 credits to his name, but also still performing roles to the end. Sure, every obituary is going to talk up how well known he was for The Mary Tyler Moore Show and all that, but for many of us, he was a huge part of our childhoods.

Ed Asner did plenty of voice work. More than I can talk about here, but his deep, growly, and at times friendly voice lent itself well to a lot of cartoon characters. Not just the old man from Up, but lots of villains and supporting characters in superhero shows. He was also in FoodFight, but we don’t need to talk about FoodFight.

Here are our favorite animated characters that Ed Asner gave voice to…

Roland Daggett (Batman: The Animated Series)

It really says a lot about how high-quality Batman: The Animated Series was when they had Ed Asner doing a bang up job playing Roland Daggett and he was probably considered the least interesting recurring villain. Giving Batman his own Lex Luthor wasn’t as strong a dynamic as it should have been and other than being a side villain in the Clayface origin episodes, Daggett’s episodes don’t really stand out among the rest.

When you do watch one of those episodes and remember that Daggett exists, Asner’s charm definitely does some heavy lifting. He absolutely pulled whatever blood he could out of that stone.

Hoggish Greedly (Captain Planet and the Planeteers)

Ah, Captain Planet. Incredibly cheesy, but honestly way better than it really had any right to be. Asner played Hoggish Greedly, one of the various go-to villains on the show and one of the villains who was so on the nose that he’s made to look like a literal gross animal to drive the point home how evil he is. Greedly was half-pig/half-Trump, which led to Asner doing oink-based laughter that went on way too long. I’m sure that saved on the animation budget.

Asner’s Greedly also did a lot of yelling at his sidekick Rigger and that guy was voiced by John Ratzenberger. Forget all the pollution and trying to murder children and eco-Jesus. Being mean to Cliff Clavin is going too far!

Hudson (Gargoyles)

Third season excluded, Gargoyles was one of those shows that was so good that you can’t help but look back in wonder at how fortunate we were to have something so good. Asner was the team’s resident grizzled mentor character Hudson (who named himself that after thinking that naming a river is stupid as hell). He brought his A-game, plus a Scottish accent, but was a bit overshadowed by the team’s leader Goliath. Asner may have had a gravely voice, but he was a silver medalist to Keith David’s gold in that regard.

Despite being a battle-weary soul, Hudson always brought a weird sense of optimism to the show whenever he was around. He acted like living as long as he had was something to be celebrated and that he was lucky for it.

Mike Cosgrove (Freakazoid)

As the story goes, Asner was prepared to voice Sgt. Cosgrove with more pep and emotion, but when he blandly read through the lines to get them down first, others told him to just go with that. Cosgrove’s complete lack of enthusiasm in contrast to Freakazoid’s over-the-top behavior is what makes him so memorable and likeable. He was like the anti-straight man.

There’s a real Dadaist charm to Cosgrove, who is entirely competent (he once caused a Cthulhu-like being to back off via a threat to bust his lip), but really outlines the utter weirdness of Freakazoid’s world with his mild banter. It doesn’t matter how dire the situation is, if Cosgrove invites Freakazoid to some random distraction, it will almost always work. Then he’ll tell him something odd like how pigs are smarter than bears, but they can’t ride bikes. Then he’ll convince Freakazoid to get back to the plot and move on.

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This did lead to the biggest BS moment of the show, though. One time Freakazoid couldn’t go get a yogurt with Cosgrove, so Cosgrove asked the viewer if they wanted to join him, followed by reacting as if we said no. Don’t you put that evil on me, Steven Spielberg! I don’t appreciate the gaslighting and I know I’m not the only one.

Asner did get to reprise the role one last time in a recent episode of Teen Titans Go! that guest starred Freakazoid. Once again, he got distracted from a life-or-death situation because Cosgrove wanted to buy him a donut and then discuss the different types of donuts.

J. Jonah Jameson (Spider-Man: The Animated Series)

When it comes to Jameson, it’s all but unanimous that JK Simmons is THE portrayal. Even in terms of animation, people tend to think of Paul Kligman for nailing the character back in the 1960s. That said, Asner played him a different way and it worked. Asner’s Jameson wasn’t a motormouth with an inflated sense of importance. He was a gruff and, for lack of a better term, menacing boss who was a thorn in the side of Peter Parker’s two identities.

While he did come off as a jerk, they made sure to emphasize that he wasn’t a bad guy, just a grouch with an axe to grind. That made it all the better in the aftermath of Peter’s wedding when he revealed in secret that he paid for the whole thing, but didn’t want Peter to know he actually liked him.

Even though Asner was able to play Peter’s cantankerous quasi-father figure, he did get a brief shot at Peter’s more loving one in Spectacular Spider-Man. As Uncle Ben, Asner showed some real grizzled warmth that really stood out despite being a very short role.

Granny Goodness (Superman: The Animated Series)

I already mentioned Daggett earlier, but Asner has done his lion’s share of DC characters. The animated adaptation of All-Star Superman had him as Perry White, which is so obvious in retrospect that I can’t believe it took that long to do (Asner had also been considered for the role as far back as Richard Donner’s Superman: The Movie). He was also Hephaestus in an episode of Justice League Unlimited, which was overshadowed by the extremely inspired casting of the brothers from Wonder Years as Hawk and Dove.

Just as inspired was Asner as Granny Goodness. A cosmic evil in the form of a “loving” grandmother type is one of the most Jack Kirby of Jack Kirby ideas. Having Asner trying to use his menacing gravel voice for a female character is just so fun to check out, especially once you figure out it’s him. Granny didn’t get too much use, but I would love to see the footage of Asner in the booth trying to make it work.

Carl Fredricksen (Up)

While I can talk about Cosgrove and Jameson for days, Asner’s most famous role is that of Carl, the crotchety old man from Up. It helps that by the time we first hear Asner’s voice in the movie, we’ve already seen Carl through his whole life, including the heartbreaking tragedy that comes with it. It lets us know that underneath the harsh growling, there’s a sensitive man underneath and Asner’s performance opens up throughout.

Though again, he’s mean to John Ratzenberger and I can’t abide by that!

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Up is a great companion piece to A Goofy Movie, in how it hits differently for each generation. Much like how kids identify with Max while adults identify with Goofy, Up has Russell the scout and Carl. When Kevin the bird gets kidnapped, Russell can only scold Carl in disbelief for letting it happen. Carl, whose house and belongings were literally just on fire a moment ago, responds with the emotional and fed-up, “I DIDN’T ASK FOR ANY OF THIS!” which is probably my favorite Asner line read.

I’m really not looking forward to rewatching that movie. I love it, but it’s going to break me. Let’s see what else Disney+ has to offer… Oh, Dug has his own series of shorts! …Oh man.

Santa Claus (Various)

One of roles people these days remember Asner for is Santa Claus in Elf. That was neither the first time nor the last time Asner portrayed Jolly Old Saint Nick. He’s played the character various times in various projects. For some reason, Ed Asner just made for a fantastic Santa. It’s not like he was playing him the same way every time.

His performance in The Story of Santa Claus was your regular vanilla take. The version in Elf (which had an animated spinoff short, so it’s on-topic!) felt like a well-meaning but flawed take on the legend. Olive, the Other Reindeer added some real cynicism to Santa while Regular Show went even further to the point of absurdity. But yet no matter the version, Asner added warmth and wisdom to his portrayal of the seasonal gift-giver.

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Honestly, an Ed Asner Santa marathon isn’t the worst idea for this December. It’s a good way to remember such a beloved talent that I’m certainly going to miss.

The post Ed Asner: The Most Memorable Animated Roles From the TV Legend appeared first on Den of Geek.

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[lady-griffin]

Birds of Prey and The Not So Fantabulous Opening Weekend

Birds of Prey did not do well at the Box Office.

I’ve seen some people disagree with that…but it simply didn’t.

$35 Million (Domestic) is not a strong opening for a Superhero Hero movie that cost between $85 – $100 million to make (not including marketing).

It’s Worldwide Total Opening was $81.6 Million, which is also bad.

Birds of Prey is the lowest opening for a DCEU film. It’s about $20 Million below Shazam, which made $53.5 (domestic) its opening weekend.

Not a good sign, since Shazam/Captain Marvel (DC) is not a character known by general moviegoers, while Harley Quinn is an extremely popular character and was made known to many people through Suicide Squad and was one of the most popular things to come out of that movie.

Now, I’m of the personal belief that the first two weekends of movie really tell you whether it flopped or not, as well as the movie’s entire box office earnings. 

But it’s not looking great for Birds of Prey.

So, I wanted to talk about some of the reasons why it might’ve suffered over the weekend and also what are the chances of it making a comeback. As well as what the movie will likely have to make to earn its money back.

Title Confusion

Talking to some of my friends and family, I realized that the title did not do BOP any favors. 

A few of them didn’t realize Birds of Prey was the a Harley Quinn movie, let alone a Superhero/DC flick. They knew a Harley Quinn movie was coming out, but they hadn’t realize the two were one in the same. 

Birds of Prey and Birds of Prey (and The Fantabulous Emancipation of One Harley Quinn) are not exactly eye-catching or gripping titles.

I personally, thought Birds of Prey (and The Fantabulous Emancipation of One Harley Quinn) is not a good title and annoying long. 

Which leads it to be shortened to make it easier, which is how people are going refer to the film, and Birds of Prey doesn’t indicate to your casual audience what it is or about.

Especially, when not many people know who the Birds of Prey are, while a known superhero group for comic book fans, it’s not a well-known hero group.

And the studio seems to agree with that, if you go online to look up the film, it’s now Harley Quinn: Birds of Prey.

That was not the title on Box Office Mojo on Sunday (Feb 09).

So the studio is definitely trying to fix the title problem.

Personally, for me, I think it would’ve been better if the movie was titled Harley Quinn and The Birds of Prey from the very beginning. For a few reasons, but mainly -

I think that’s more accurate to the actual plot of the movie and the importance of the characters in the film

You know it involves DC and Harley Quinn

And it has a more Girl Vibe to it, to the likes of Josie and The Pussycats

However, I am honestly curious if this title will change anything for the movie, especially with the box office this upcoming weekend or if it’s simply to late.We shall see. 

What is this film even about?

Going off my own personal conversations with other people, a lot of people don’t know what this film is really about. Which is think is connected to both the title and trailers. 

I was super-interested in the movie and I was actively seeking it out on my own. Looking up fan theories or speculations as well estimates for how the movie will do and I recognized who the character were in the trailer. So, I knew what it was going to be about.

But, if someone is more casual about this kind of movie or movies in general, than I can see where they felt lost or didn’t know all that much.

One of my friends had no idea that Black Canary and Huntress were even in the movie and once she learned that they were in it, her interest increased. 

Especially, when I told her that this version of Black Canary and Huntress our second to my favorite from Justice League: Unlimited. Which is where she knows Black Canary and Huntress from. 

Suicide Squad PTSD

Or, as two friends put it, the trailers reminded them so much of Suicide Squad that it turned them off from wanting to see this film. 

That’s interesting to me and I think provides a unique problem for Birds of Prey in the DCEU, but also something I don’t think some reviewers focus on.

Overall, a telling of a movie’s success is (if it has one) its sequel’s success. Sequels are often expected to do better than the first movie, because they are going off the good will of said film. Now that’s not always the case, but that’s what Hollywood is hoping for.  

And while many, many people saw Suicide Squad, its opening weekend being $133.6 million (domestic), a lot of people did not like the movie.

 Including myself.

I liked aspects of it – Harley Quinn, Dead Shot, and Amanda Waller and two scenes that I thought were excellent.  

People not wanting to see Birds of Prey because it looked too much like Suicide Squad, might seem less like a BOP problem, but I would disagree.

The movie still went with many style choices that are from Suicide Squad or similar enough. 

And beyond style, the movie does have Suicide Squad elements. While I thought those aspects were done better, I wonder if that matters enough in the long run.

The Trailer

I personally did not like the trailers. I thought the music choice was not the right pick and made the movie feel like it was going to be slow and low-energy, which is the opposite of what you want for Harley Quinn.

When I think of Harley Quinn, I think of high-energy and I think a movie starring her should be a fast-moving and high-action movie with lots of energy.

One problem, I found with the film was its pacing. Sometimes it was too fast (with jumpy editing reminiscent of Suicide Squad) and other times it seemed liked molasses.

So, I thought the trailer was not the best marketing that could’ve been done for this movie. Especially when I thought a lot of the posters were really good and the music choices in the film were well-matched and worked with the film. 

I personally love Joke’s On You By Charlotte Lawrence. 

R-Rating

One of the reasons Birds of Prey struggled was because of the lack of teenagers.

An R-Rating makes it difficult for teenagers to see this movie. And from the “leaving cinema” reviews audiences gave, those under 17 had the most positive reaction to the film. 

So, if the demographic that liked this move the most can only see this film with someone over 18, then BOP shot itself in the foot.

Not only does the rating make it more difficult for them to see the movie in the first place, but also multiple times. Especially with theatres being stricter with R-ratings from what I’ve heard. 

This movie did not need to be R as it didn’t really use its R-Rating to the fullest extent. I even wondered what the point of the R-Rating was when I was watching. 

Honestly, some edits and it could’ve easily been PG-13 and that would’ve opened it up to a larger audience.  

One of my favorite parts of the movie, was the Police Raid Scene, where Harley uses non-lethal (movie-wise) force. And while that makes Harley more appealing to audiences (not killing people) it also feels odd and kind of makes the R-Rating pointless.

That was a major problem. Especially in comparison to the Joker, which I though utilized its R-Rating fully. 

Also, DC clearly was trying to have Harley Quinn be their Deadpool. Which could work in theory, but they didn’t really commit to it and honestly it didn’t work out as well as I thought it coud’ve. At least with the execution.

So, maybe the R-Rating was not the best choice for this film and maybe it should’ve gone with the safer PG-13.

Theatre Rewatchability

How many people went to see this movie two or three times over this past weekend?

I’m going to hazard a guess and say not many, if any at all. And that is an interesting point in the huge box office success of big blockbuster movies.

How much of their monetary success is due to moviegoers seeing a movie just once vs. seeing it 2-3 (or even more) times?

Now to be fair, I wonder what the demographic of moviegoers who go to multiple viewings. I’m assuming male, 20s-30s. But honestly, I have no idea and I could be completely wrong, since I don’t do that. 

Seeing movie multiple times in a theater is not something I personally get. There are very few movies where I’ve actively wanted to see it for a second time in the theatre, let alone actually went to see it a second time. 

I can remember 6 movies in which that was the case - Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse, Aladdin (2019), Avengers: Infinity War, Wonder Woman, Captain America: Civil War, and Avengers.

So, while I am actually likely to see this movie again (with my dad in like two weeks), I can’t say over the weekend I desperately needed or wanted to go see it again. And I liked the film and had a good time.

Of course, that should be taken with a grain of salt, since again I’m not the type of person who does that. 

I have to wonder, if the people who go to see (blockbuster) movies multiple times (especially on opening weekend) were simply satisfied with seeing this movie only once or simply didn’t like it or didn’t see it at all. 

Alienating Comic Book Fans?

I don’t know how true this is and as a comic book fan, I went to see the movie and I enjoyed it.

But I have seen a few people say they aren’t planning to see it (at least not in theatres) as they are tired of the oversaturation of Harley Quinn in everything, don’t like that Cassandra Cain is there in name only (which did annoy me), and that while being Birds of Prey there is no Oracle/Batgirl who is a main member of said team.

And I say I don’t know how true this or even accurate, but Birds of Prey didn’t do itself any favors by not appealing enough to a mainstream audience nor its niche audience who know and love the material it’s based on. 

Oscars

While the actual Oscars likely did not take away any audiences from BOP, as the Oscars aren’t exactly a huge audience magnet itself. 

I think a lot of people (or enough) went to see an Oscar nominated film this past weekend over BOP. 

My theatre was showing Oscar-nominated movies and had two theatres dedicated to an ‘Oscar marathon’ for both long and short nominated features.

In this past weekend’s Box Office results (Feb 07-09) , 1917 was 3rd, Little Women was 8th, Parasite was 11th and Jojo Rabbit was 12th. 

And Marriage Story, The Irishmen, and The Story of Two Popes are all available on Netflix.

So, I wonder how many people went to see an Oscar Nominated film before the Oscars and decided to see BOP another day or weekend.

Man Hating...depending on who you ask. 

This is probably longer than it needed to be, but I wanted to talk about. So feel free to skip to the Conclusion.

I’m sure plenty of people will disagree with this and be angry I suggested it, but a lot of people, both men and women thought this movie was hating on men and did not like that. 

And according to the opening night or weekend demographics the breakdown of the audience was actually 55% Men and 45% women. So it’s not like men refused to see the movie, some probably did, but apparently so did some women. 

Honestly that’s not a bad split of male and female demographics, but the movie was probably hoping for a larger female turnout, if not a larger turnout all together. 

While I’ve seen several men dislike the movie for its lack of sexiness (and the hating on men) a lot of those men still went to see it. So, whether or not they hated it, their ticket still counts.

But a negative opinion on any movie can turn away who knows how many future audience members. 

Now my impression of the movie was not so much Men=Evil and Women=Good, but more of the idea that this movie and its characters are dealing with the underbelly of Gotham City and the less than upstanding citizens.

Thay being said, I am only one ticket.

And when I thought about it, there are really only 3-4 male characters who weren’t straight up sexist or evil (which is a low bar) and all of them were extremely minor roles.

Spoilers Below

Male Assassin/Goon, who saw Helena was alive and saved her 

A non-speaking minor role and to my knowledge he didn’t have a name, so not exactly a great representation of a good man. 

The assassin thing is just neutral, given all the other characters.

Guy at Roman’s club, who was force to undress his friend/girlfriend out of fear of dying

You get why he had to do it, but he still did it. So again not great.

 And once I thought about it, I feel like this scene could’ve easily been done differently. The guy could’ve refused and Zsasz could’ve beaten him or kill him and the main point of the scene is still there, that Roman is unstable and very, very dangerous.

Doc, the man who knows everyone in the criminal world and sold out Harley for money

Here is where things get interesting. I honestly didn’t think he was a bad guy.

I got why he did it. It made sense to me and I think he made the right decision there. And Harley Quinn, basically did the same thing to Cassandra, so at the very least he’s no better then Quinn.

So, while I saw the Doc example as criminals being criminals. Many other people, saw this as another example of men being shitty. And even though I’m aligning him with the ‘good men’ of the film, that kind of proves people’s point of there being no good men in this film. 

Finaly, The Police Captain and Montoya’s former partner -  Captain Patrick Erickson. I had to look his name up, so that’s not good. 

Here is where I think you honestly get the narrative of the film being against men and unfairly so. 

We don’t see him do anything in the actual movie that is that bad or even sexist (or at least I can’t recall it). 

So while none his choices or actions in the film were bad, the narrative and the tone of his scenes (especially since their from the perspective of Montoya) he’s clearly meant to be seen as a ‘bad guy’ or at least an antagonist. 

We are literally told he took the credit for Montoya’s big case in a voiceover by Harley Quinn. And that’s it. 

A dick move to be sure, but again, nothing he does in the actual movie really shows him being a dick. 

So, for me it felt like his character got the short end and unfairly so by the movie. Especially since that voice over primes the audience to see him as an antagonist, despite what he does in his actual scenes.

So, thinking about that, I am liking it less and less. And feel like the movie could’ve made some simply changes. 

And while not my take away, I did consider this opinion after seeing it more than once. And I think that argument does have had a leg or two to stand on, especially when I consider how the movie handled the Police Captain Character.

However, for me I never really felt like this movie hated men, because while a villain and a complete psychopath who was sexist, I absolutely loved Ewan McGregor’s Black Mask. 

I thought he was such a fantastic and engaging villain and I absolutely loved his scenes and was hooked everytime he was on screen.

Far from a good guy to be sure, but to me that didn’t matter so much, because he was such a fantastic character. And he was such a fun and gleefully evil character to watch.

For me, having a male character that’s was so goddamn fun and enjoyable mattered far more than whether or not he was good or bad, morality speaking. 

Unfortunately, the movie wasted his character at the end.

So, whether or not you agree or disagree that this move hates men. 

I would say that having at least one male character who wasn’t a bad guy or at the very least as good as the main characters would’ve helped the movie, given how it’s done so far.

If the movie had done amazing or met expectation, I would say you might have a different argument. 

Conclusion

There could’ve been many reasons why BOP did less than great at the Box Office (to put it nicely). Some of the reasons could’ve been the main reason or not the reason at all, but most likely it’s a combination of several different factors. 

However, if it has a good hold this upcoming weekend, then well the narrative of BOP’s success will change. 

And that doesn’t seem impossible for it. 

Despite some vocal negativity and it not being everyone’s favorite, Birds of Prey overall got a postive reaction from a lot of the people who saw it. It has done well with audiences and critics and while not a guarantee of anything, that’s something.

6.7 out of 10 on IMDB.

83% and now 80% on Rotten Tomatoes. 

B+ Cinema Score.

Google says 83% of its users like it. 

Google Audience’s score is 3.7 out of 5.

60% on Metacritic

So while not the most amazing reviews of all time, they are not overtly bad and even some of them are decently strong. 

The real questions is BOP capable of expanding on the moviegoers who liked and saw it. 

BOP needs a good hold this upcoming weekend in its box-office numbers.

Basically movies that drop 60% or higher from their opening weekend to their second weekend, show that said movies are not going to do well (box office wise) and that they have no legs to continue on (not likely to make a lot of money in theatres). 

They simply didn’t have a good hold. 

Blockbusters are a bit of a different story, as most have a drop rate of 60% or higher, but that’s because so many people went to see it the opening weekend (they’re front-loaded films).

Also, if your movie made 100+ million (domestically) it’s first weekend, well your movie is likely going to be just fine. Actually, that depends on how much the movie cost to make and what were the expectations for it, but you get my point.

Birds of Prey did not have a Blockbuster opening, so a drop of 60% or higher would be awful for it and the movie will truly be dead in the water.

Second Weekend Total:  $13 mil or less would be bad to very bad (60% drop)

Less than 59% is (technically) okay to even good.

Second Weekend Total: $15 million (55% drop) not great, but certainly better than awful. And I think people could spin this to being good or bad result. 

Less than 50% is very good.

Second Weekend Total: Around 18.5 million (45%) would be very good.

Less than 40% pretty darn great and an excellent hold.

Second Weekend total: Around $21 mil (35%) would honestly be so good for this movie, I don’t know how likely that is to be honest.

Birds of Prey’s hold for its second weekend, could easily make or break this movie.

Of course, while the first two weekends of a movie are important, a movie’s final box office total matters just as much, if not more. 

BOP cost $85-100 mil (not including marketing). So to find out what the movie would have to make to earn it’s money back for the studio. We are going to do a bit of movie math. 

I am going to say the budget cost $100 Mil (to be on the safe side) and since marketing budgets are not public information, we need to guess that element. 

To figure the marketing budget we just need to cut the production budget in half to make a safe assumption for the marketing budget (a good rule to follow for any film). 

Birds of Prey cost $150 Million to make. ($100 Production + $50 Marketing) 

It would have to make $300 million to make its money back. I say $300 not $150, because theatres get half of that money. So even if it make $150 Million, the studio is only seeing half of that.

That’s the simple version of that, as technically there are more complications to consider, but were not going into that. 

Whether or not the second weekend is a good hold or not, if Birds of Prey makes $300 million in its box office, it has made its money back and was not a loss for the studio. 

That doesn’t mean it’s a success, but salvaged its theatrical run. 

Now of course, just because a movie doesn’t do well at the Box Office doesn’t mean it’s a bad movie. 

That’s always important to remember. Especially, if you liked the film.

And while the Box Office is a very good indicator of a film’s success and its future (sequels and franchise), there is also the factor of the Ancillary market (non-theatrical markets for feature films) this includes streaming, renting, television, airlines/hotels and so on. 

So, a movie like BOP if it does badly Box Office wise can always find a second life in the ancillary market world. 

And the sad truth is that Female-Centric movies do have a harder road to go down. If a male-centric movie does badly, no one’s take away is going to be that movies heavily featuring men are box office poison.

And yet, unfairly so, that can easily become the take away for this movie. There is simply more pressure when a female-centric film does badly.

And I think female-centric movies that are just okay, don’t invite in a lot of success either. Female driven movies simply have to be more than just okay and while that’s not fair, it’s true.

And there are going to be men (and probably some women) who don’t want to see a movie because they think it is too female focus or too feminist and that can always hurt a movie. 

But the good news is while some of those people have loud voices, they are rarely the majority of people.

I think I’ve lost my point.

Basically, BOP did not do well in its opening debut and there could be many reasons behind that, but there is always a chance it can salvage itself (if not do very well) in its second weekend as well as in its overall run in theatres and out of theatres.