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thecostumeplot · 4 years ago

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Episode 12: Cinderella (1997) & Mirror Mirror

Please consult these Instagram slideshows for accompanying images: Cinderella Mirror Mirror part 1, part 2

Both

Welcome to The Costume Plot.

Jojo

I'm Jojo Siu.

Sarah

and I’m Sarah Timm. We're professional designers with a passion for costume design and the performing arts. Our podcast does contain spoilers.

Jojo

We hope you'll join us every other week as we delve into the wonderful world of costume design in The Costume Plot. [music]

Jojo

Hello!

Sarah

Hi. Welcome back to The Costume Plot!

Jojo

Yes, it's weird. We're talking about kind of coming back to normal episodes this month.

Sarah

Yeah, we had no idea who was supposed to go first. [both laugh]

Jojo

It's been so many weeks.

Sarah

I know. We hope that this podcast finds you well.

Jojo

We're finally going to get the COVID vaccine. So that's exciting. Some new developments.

Sarah

Life maybe slowly getting back to some semblance of normal at some point soon, hopefully. [laughs]

Jojo

Yes! And you're going back to work next week, Sarah, so that's exciting.

Sarah

I'm going to be working on a filmed production at South Coast Rep, which is very exciting. There are a lot of rules for even getting in the building. And like, not eating when I'm inside and stuff.

Jojo

Yeah, you know, the every day thing.

Sarah

It's gonna be a challenge for me!

Jojo

Absolutely.

Sarah

I'm a snacker at work. So that's gonna be challenging. [both laugh]

Jojo

I know, there's a snacker in all of us, right?

Sarah

Especially, I mean, this is true on film sets, too. But at theaters, there's always a snack table full of goodies.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

So there's not going to be that during COVID times.

Jojo

It's our sustenance!

Sarah

I know. How am I supposed to get by without like, 15 Oreos in my workday? [laughs]

Jojo

I'm also-- I'm always more of a salty snack person. Like, I love Goldfish.

Sarah

Oh, yeah.

Jojo

It's so bad at home.

Sarah

Salty in one hand. Sweet in the other. That's how I like to do it.

Jojo

True. That's why those trail mixes are the best. Gives you a little bit of both.

Sarah

Oh, yeah. I love a trail mix. [laughs]

Jojo

Yeah. Gonna be a weird new normal.

Sarah

Yeah, yeah, I am already dreading wearing a mask for eight full hours. Oh, I think I'm gonna bring multiple ones. So that it doesn't-- I feel like I'm gonna get acne on my chin. You know? Gross.

Jojo

I've already experienced that a few times. It's just like, I need to not have this thing on my face for this long.

Sarah

Or I need to remember to wash my face. Like as soon as I get home, you know, 'cause that's... that's gross.

Jojo

It's a constant washing.

Sarah

Yeah. So anyway!

Jojo

Back to our podcast. [both laugh]

Sarah

We wanted to do a quick reminder that we do have a YouTube channel. So if you're, you know, feeling limited by only looking at our pictures on Instagram, and following along there, you can go on YouTube and the full episodes are up. It's just the audio, but then it's a slideshow of all the pictures. So if that's how you prefer to listen then please go do that.

Jojo

Yeah, it's it's a really nice way to be able to see the pictures pop up as we're talking about them as well. [beeping sound] So really easily followed along, which is nice.

Sarah

I think my fire alarm just chirped. I hope it doesn't again.

Jojo

Uh-oh, might need a battery change, maybe?

Sarah

It's like... it's a fancy WiFi one. And it's like hooked up to my sister's... phone.

Jojo

All right.

Sarah

...Podcast!

Jojo

So many distractions today. [both laugh]

Sarah

Sorry!

Jojo

It's been one of those mornings.

Sarah

Yeah. Okay, so. So today's theme is fairy tales. And we're both really excited to talk about our movies. So let's just get into it.

Jojo

Yeah!

Sarah

Let's do it. Okay, so, you know by reading the title of the episode that I'm covering "Cinderella." I'm covering the 1997 TV movie.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

Oh, my sister says it's a "monthly self test" that it does. Okay, great.

Jojo

[laughs] That's good to know. I will say, I'm so glad that you're covering this version. I mean, I like the new version as well. But like, this is such a classic.

Sarah

I was waffling between the two because I really do enjoy the Lily James, Kenneth Branagh live action one. But this one has been in the headlines recently because it just had an anniversary, and it just came to Disney+.

Jojo

Yay!

Sarah

So I was like, "well, it's it's the perfect time to cover it." And maybe I'll get to the other one eventually.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

So yeah, let's see... it was directed by Robert Iscove, and the costumes are by our old friend, Ellen Mirojnick...

Jojo

Yeah!

Sarah

...whose name you might remember from the "Bridgerton" episode. I was really excited when I saw that. She clearly does excellent work.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

And I looked at her IMDb to see what she's up to. And she's working on another "Cinderella". That's coming out this year, I think, and it has Camila Cabello in it.

Jojo

Wow!

Sarah

And I was like, "Why didn't I know they were making this?" [laughs]

Jojo

I'm not sure how I feel about that. [laughs]

Sarah

Me neither! People always be remaking "Cinderella," like there are never enough versions.

Jojo

And I guess-- I guess the singing part of it will be great.

Sarah

Well, I don't know if it's a musical. I mean, I assume it is if they have Camilla.

Jojo

That's what I was thinking. Because I was like-- I'm assuming if they're putting a musician in there that they really want her to be able to sing well, but...

Sarah

Yeah, I didn't read it to see if it's also the Rodgers and Hammerstein one or if it's like a Disney thing? I don't know.

Jojo

That's so weird. I feel like they JUST came out with the other "Cinderella". But maybe that's my warped sense of time now. [laughs]

Sarah

There's a lot-- I think, really, people just... they're really going for the nostalgia factor. And studios especially are like, "we know that this will sell tickets." So it's not a big gamble to do it.

Jojo

That's true.

Sarah

So like they always go with the safe one. Yeah, they know it'll sell tickets. And that's all they're thinking about, is money. So...

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

Anyway. So this is the Rodgers and Hammerstein musical. And it's the only Rodgers and Hammerstein musical that was written for TV. And it was written for Julie Andrews, actually, she was in the original version in 1957, on CBS. And then it moved to stage after that, but it's had a couple more iterations on TV, it was done again in '65. And then this one in '97. And they added songs to this one, they added three songs that are actually-- I thought that they were written for this version, but they were actually borrowed from other Richard Rogers musicals, which is pretty funny. They're...

Jojo

Interesting!

Sarah

They weren't-- he was just like...

Jojo

"I don't want to write something new." [laughs]

Sarah

I didn't look to see if he was the one who was alive and said, "Yes, let's use them." Or if people were just like, "let's just borrow from his other work." So… Oh, and then this musical finally made it to Broadway in 2013, which is pretty late. And I saw it on its tour, and it was wonderful. I loved it. So-- and it has really beautiful transformation costumes, like magic quick-change costumes...

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

...and you can find some of them on YouTube, which is something I always want to do, is watch all of the transformations over and over again. [laughs]

Jojo

All the magic moments.

Sarah

It's... I have gotten to work on one magic quick-change dress, but nothing as big as the ones that are in that.

Jojo

Yeah, it's pretty amazing seeing them.

Sarah

There's-- it's like engineering, you know, it's a whole different side of costuming.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

So, I have become sort of a Cinderella defender because this movie and the Kenneth Branagh one, especially, make her into a lot more interesting of a person than, say, the cartoon does. Also "Ever After," which is a great adaptation.

Jojo

Oh, "Ever After" is so good. We'll have to cover that eventually, too.

Sarah

Yes, yes. [both laugh] And then I'll cry about that white dress.

Jojo

We'll just do another Cinderella episode. [both laugh] All the different versions of.

Sarah

Like, "it's Cinderella year, we're only covering Cinderellas this year," and then we would never run out because there's so many.

Jojo

[laughs] It's true.

Sarah

I really like how she's-- she's basically an abuse survivor, right? So this one and the Kenneth Branagh one, and "Ever After" make her into this radically kind person who stays positive even though she's faced a lifetime of mistreatment. And she wants to find love, but it's because she wants someone to see her and appreciate her for who she is.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

Not because she wants to be rescued, but just because she knows her own value, and she's waiting for somebody else to finally see it.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

So I think that's wonderful.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

Okay, moving into the costumes. This is the legendary Bernadette Peters as the step mom, and then the two step sisters. And you can see right away that this is a very colorful world. It seems to have no time period or setting, geographically. It's really just pure fantasy, which is fun. You can do whatever you want. It's just like a crazy mishmash of all of these styles. This is Calliope, the taller sister.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

She has a hobble skirt on, which is so named because you can only hobble in it, you can't really walk because it's so narrow. [laughs] And the step mom has one under this crazy tiered skirt too.

Jojo

I love it.

Sarah

This fabric looks maybe like velvet like upholstery fabric, almost.

Jojo

Yeah, it really does.

Sarah

So this is telling us-- it opens, basically, with these people. And it's like-- this tells us this world is crazy. It's fantasy. It's drama, you know, colorful. And then we have Cinderella who is... I couldn't get a lot of great shots of her in this because she's carrying huge packages for the whole scene. [both laugh] I have a... see, nope. That. That's it.

Jojo

Oh yeah.

Sarah

It's like a loose knit cardigan over just a very simple sort of muslin-colored dress. So this is a situation where everybody else is so crazy that she stands out because she's so plain, you know.

Jojo

Right. I do love this color palette on her, too.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

Like that really nice rust red.

Sarah

Yes. So conveniently, the prince is also wearing that color in this first scene, which is a funny scene, because they're singing the exact same song pretending like they don't see each other. [both laugh] But they're, like, inches apart.

Jojo

Yeah. Less than the socially distanced six feet. [both laugh]

Sarah

And then they turn and see each other. It's like, he was literally right next to you this whole scene. So funny.

Jojo

That's usually how musicals go, though. It's so improbable, but we just believe it anyways.

Sarah

Yes, suspension of disbelief, and also it's shot in fullscreen. So the frame is small. So like, for two people to be together, they have to be quite close. [laughs]

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

Yeah. So I like that they're both wearing the same color. You know, it tells us that they're-- they want the same thing. They're destined for each other.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

I love his sort of-- I mean, this is his outfit in disguise. Like, people aren't going to realize that he's the prince because he's, what, because he's wearing a shirt and pants? [both laugh] He didn't even do a Jasmine-style cloak.

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

You know, he was just like, "they won't recognize me if I'm not wearing brocade." [both laugh] I don't know.

Jojo

Maybe it's the lack of embroidery and texture on his costume.

Sarah

Yeah, I mean, when you see what the royal family wears, I suppose it makes sense. But you would think that since this whole-- the kingdom, the village, seems to be so obsessed with him, and the fact that he later gives the ball, they would know what his face looks like.

Jojo

Right, right.

Sarah

That's okay. More suspension of disbelief.

Jojo

[laughs] I guess it's not like they had TV or, you know, things where they could actually see his face plastered all over media all the time.

Sarah

That's true. That's true. Maybe they've only seen illustrations.

Jojo

Right, right. [both laugh] Pencil sketches, you know, a little-- little stick figure drawings.

Sarah

Okay, so this is our king and queen, Victor Garber and Whoopi Goldberg, having a ball. You can tell everybody loved making this movie, which is like... that's always fun.

Jojo

[laughs] It's been a while since I've seen Whoopi Goldberg in something.

Sarah

I know, I love her.

Jojo

I do .

Sarah

I think they greenlit "Sister Act 3," which--

Jojo

They did?!

Sarah

I think... I remember seeing it on Twitter or something when it happened. I hope it happens because "Sister Acts" 1 and 2 are literally in my top 10 movies. [both laugh]

Jojo

I do love them so much. So good.

Sarah

So I love their color palette. You know, again, very bright. This hot pink thing on Victor Garber is so fun. And I read a little bit... I found a scan of a page from the book "The Art of Disney Costuming" that talked very briefly about this movie. And apparently they didn't have that big of a budget. And I think that you wouldn't know that unless you were told, you know, because the fabrics look very luxurious. Nothing looks cheap, I would say... for the most part. [both laugh]

Jojo

There's there's a few exceptions.

Sarah

Yeah, I mean, all looks pretty darn good. But it's funny because they actually-- most of the characters, at the end of the movie, go back to what they're wearing at the beginning. So they kind of recycle the first looks into their-- so most of the characters have two outfits, maybe three.

Jojo

Okay.

Sarah

So that's kind of where we can see that there's not a lot of budget.

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

But I like sort of the sari fabric that Victor Garber has on. And here's a wide shot where you can see it's nice and long.

Jojo

That is almost like an Indian coat.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

Very Indian inspired.

Sarah

Yeah. And I think that using sari fabrics and using fabrics that have a metallic or an interesting pattern is an easy way to make things look luxurious without having to put a ton of trim or crystals on it. You know what I mean?

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

Yeah, so I think they look great. Whoopi Goldberg wearing burgundy velvet. I love the natural hairstyle she has. Very good, very good. No notes. Looks great.

Jojo

[both laugh] No notes.

Sarah

So here we have the stepmother during the "prince is giving a ball" scene, and she looks cuckoo-bananas in this scene. I mean, everybody does.

Jojo

Look at that floating thing around her head!

Sarah

Yeah!

Jojo

It's so great.

Unknown Speaker

It's like a sheer sort of shawl. Except she's also wearing this large headpiece, which, don't worry, I have a picture of it.

Jojo

Oh my goodness.

Sarah

There it is. It looks like clock hands? Like, wacky clock hands.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

Doesn't it?

Jojo

Like all stapled together. [both laugh]

Sarah

I think it's great.

Jojo

She looks very-- for some reason, she just makes me think of Ursula. Like, I feel like these are things that she could have collected from the bottom of the sea and just fashioned into a little headdress. [both laugh]

Sarah

Oh man, I love that visual. It's hilarious.

Jojo

Maybe it's also that she's wearing that purple high necked collar.

Sarah

Yeah, she does wear a good amount of purple. She does. So yeah, that's a fun look.

Jojo

It's beautiful.

Sarah

Yeah, I like this purple fabric. Once again, looks sort of Indian-esque.

Jojo

Yeah, it's got that Indian trim that's typically on the sari, as well. And then the small gold embroidery.

Sarah

Oh, I don't have a picture of him. But I wrote down in my notes, "Jason Alexander doing the same inscrutable accent as the stylist in 'The Princess Diaries.'" Because he's doing this weird-- it sounds like New York, Brooklyn, and then it sounds vaguely European. It's, it's like nothing. It's just an accent but--

Jojo

Whyyyy?

Sarah

--it's not a real accent. [both laugh] It's pretty funny. So here we have the step family once again. And this is when they're getting ready to go to the ball. And I love that their, basically, dressing gowns and underwear are as exciting and interesting as their actual clothes. [both laugh]

Jojo

Yep.

Sarah

One thing I didn't appreciate is, once again, there's a tight lacing scene. Because we always have to have one of those. And it was on Minerva, who is the shorter curvier sister and I was like, "okay, of course the curvy one is the one who has to be squeezed into a corset."

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

Of course. Yeah, I love how elaborate this is. Like, this petticoat she has is so many different fabrics and it's really voluminous and fun. And then I-- the other, the taller sister, is very Carol Burnett. She looks like Carol Burnett the whole movie. It's like she's doing an impression of her.

Jojo

I love that a headdress that she's got going on. It's almost like she layered multiple shower caps onto it and like just attached them. [both laugh]

Sarah

Yeah, it's like a bonnet? I guess.

Jojo

Oh, okay.

Sarah

I don't know... for like, you know, people wear to sleep or to put over their curlers.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

That's kind of the vibe it's giving me?

Jojo

I love it. [laughs]

Sarah

I love this peachy-apricot color of Minerva's outfit.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

I think it's really nice. Okay, and then Calliope's is like-- it looks like burnout velvet, maybe?

Jojo

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. It's almost got a slightly 1920s vibe to it.

Sarah

Yeah! Yeah.

Jojo

Like those draped... they're not really dresses. They're more kinda like capes, I guess?

Sarah

Yeah, where it has sort of the the swag shape of like a... yeah, I know what you're talking about.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

Also their house... is INSANE looking. Like, it looks like a Disneyland ride. [both laugh] It's wild.

Jojo

Like, look at that wallpaper and that weirdly shaped door..[both laugh]

Sarah

It's... this whole movie is so fun. I-- it used to be on YouTube. And I watched it many times on YouTube. I think we watched it once in the shop at Fullerton, because--

Jojo

I'm pretty sure... I feel like I walked in when that happened, with Rachel's class probably.

Sarah

[both laugh] Yeah. That's the best, I love watching movies at work.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

Okay. So now we are going to the ball. And here is Bernadette in purple again. This costume is so pretty. It's very much... so this is '97, so you can kind of see the '97-ness in some of the silhouettes.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

I think that the volume starting at the hip instead of the waist is pretty-- it's very late 90s, early 2000s to me because like--

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

I remember formal dresses at the time looking like that.

Jojo

It's like almost a slightly dropped waist.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

Which I always hated because I was like, "I'm too short for this." Like, "this is so unflattering on my body." [laughs]

Sarah

Oh yeah, I have a pretty good hourglass, and then-- but dresses like that, I always felt like just kind of emphasized my belly. And made me look like I have a really long torso, so...

Jojo

Right, right.

Sarah

It's not my favorite silhouette on me.

Jojo

Maybe for someone taller. [laughs]

Sarah

Other people. Yep. And then here's a close up of her bodice and her jewelry. I think it's... I don't know how I feel. I think it's beautiful. But I also there's something about it that I can't quite articulate what what it's making me think, or how it's making me feel.

Jojo

I feel like there's a very, almost-- maybe it is a very 90s thing, but there is a little bit of that craftiness that feels almost kind of kitschy?

Sarah

Yes.

Jojo

So I think it is bordering on that like, not not quite bad, but it could go really bad. [laughs]

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

She walks a fine line with this design. Let's just say that. [laughs]

Sarah

I feel like from far away it looks really good and expensive. And then when you zoom in, it looks a little bit like the stones are kind of hot glued on willy-nilly.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

You know what I mean?

Jojo

It's like some mom decided to craft her own dress and decided she needed more jewels and got her Bejeweler set out. [both laugh]

Sarah

The jewelry is very interesting. It looks like... I wonder if it's metal or if it's something else. It looks almost like gold plastic to me.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

I don't know if that's true. I'm sorry to the people who made it, if it's not true.

Jojo

[laughs] That could have been the effect too, though. Because, you know, I mean, there is something said about how she is trying to... I don't want to say "create this character," but she wants to look richer than she actually is. And maybe her version of-- it's kind of like how I feel about "Bridgerton," there's that mom who... her and her three daughters are in that really ugly kind of chartreuse color. And they're supposed to look kind of over the top and exaggerated and a little like they crafted everything themselves even though it's way too much for everybody else.

Sarah

Right. It is unclear to me-- like, there's not a lot of background in this movie because it's only an hour and 20 minutes or whatever. So it's not clear if the step family is rich or if they are so desperate to marry the prince because they need to raise their status.

Jojo

Right right.

Sarah

Not sure. Not sure. I do like it from far away though, I love the swirls. I think it's very fun and fantasy.

Jojo

It definitely looks much more luxurious from far away.

Sarah

Yeah. And so here we have the sisters at the ball. And I love Minerva-- well, I love both of these dresses. But I love Minerva's especially, because it's this iridescent lamé that is just so pretty and sparkly. I have a second picture where you can kind of see the skirt.

Jojo

[laughs]

Sarah

I know.

Jojo

I love this shot.

Sarah

Oh, this picture is bad quality. [both laugh] Whoops. I like it too much, I'm gonna keep it.

Jojo

Oh, that's pretty great.

Sarah

I love-- it's iridescent organza and lamé just layered on top of each other. I think it's so cool. And then Calliope's is like this crazy lampshade thing, which was probably really difficult to make--

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

-- but looks really cool. Oh, and the makeup in this movie is also very, very late 90s. Like, you can't really see it in these pictures. But they have full Bonnie Bell glitter gel highlights. And I'm like, "Oh my god, that was me." [both laugh]

Jojo

I remember that from-- I do remember that from the when Brandy's character comes out at the end. Doesn't she have a whole bunch of glitter on her cheek too?

Sarah

In her wedding dress? She may, I didn't get any pictures of it.

Jojo

Or maybe I'm thinking of Whitney Houston.

Sarah

Yeah, I think... Brandi actually, I wrote in my notes that her makeup stays pretty matte the whole time. It's not very glossy, not a lot of dewiness, very matte eyeshadow. Very thin eyebrows, you know.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

Very 90s. I have a couple pictures later on of the ensemble at the ball. And they are so different from what these step family are wearing. So they really stand out. [both laugh]

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

Because they look cuckoo. Okay, so next is Whitney Houston.

Jojo

Ahh, Whitney Houston.

Sarah

And she produced this movie, which is fun. I heard that she originally wanted to play Cinderella herself and then she was like, "Oh, wait, that might not be a good idea. I might not be the right age." [both laugh] That might just be a rumor though.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

So I have complicated feelings about this costume. I think that it is kind of cheap looking?

Yeah.

It's effective. I like the fabric choice, it's kind of sparkly. But I think that the embellishment on it could look more expensive than it does.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

I think it looks a little bit like-- if you're gonna use stones like this, especially on camera, they should be nice ones. They look kind of plasticky, and not--

Jojo

This almost gives me the same effect as Bernadette's...

Sarah

Right!

Jojo

...front dress. It's it's kind of this hot glued on, giant Michaels gemstones, like... [both laugh] very kitschy.

Sarah

Right. A little bit, as my friend Erik would say, "Becky Home Ecky." [both laugh]

Jojo

Yes.

Sarah

Yeah, so I like the actual dress and her little cape that is attached to her fingers is cute.

Jojo

I'm trying to figure out what this material is. Because in that last shot, it almost looks like-- it almost looks like latex. I think just because of the way that it's kind of see through and stretched over her bust.

Sarah

Yeah. It's very shiny.

Jojo

Yeah. Because in your second image, I can't tell if it's transparent or not? It doesn't look as transparent here. But with the other shot, because you can actually see the neck line...

Sarah

Oh, look at this. Look, it has a pattern in it.

Jojo

Ooooh, interesting.

Sarah

I-- my guess would be... I feel like I had clothes made of stuff like this in the 90s and early 2000s. Sort of like polyester-y, stretchy, very slinky?

Jojo

Yeah, it's like that cheap, spandexy kind of... I think I know you're talking about

Sarah

Yeah, and I think it is sheer. I think it's two layers.

Jojo

Okay.

Sarah

Yeah, you can kind of see right here in the skirt that it looks like it may be a layer of sheer on top of another layer.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

I think that sort of the holographic sparkle effect is cool.

Jojo

Could be, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Sarah

But yeah, it's the embellishment that is problem.

Jojo

They're also in kind of random places.

Sarah

[both laugh] Yeah! Like...

Jojo

Like, I'm curious what the goal was for how she laid those out.

Sarah

Yeah, and the shapes are confusing, too. I mean, look, the wall next to her has the same shapes! [both laugh] I don't-- was this a trend, 'cause...

Jojo

Match your wallpaper. [laughs]

Sarah

It almost reminds me of home decor from a certain era?

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

Do you know what I mean? Like, triangles and swirls were like sort of kooky decor?

Like, the geometric shapes.

Yeah, I... it's just a bit confusing. But I had a second sort of thought. Oh, I will say, I think this could be greatly improved with some Swarowskis...

Jojo

Yes!

Sarah

...but there are not many outfits that couldn't be. I do like how different she is, because everybody else on screen looks so cuckoo-bananas, that she comes in this streamlined silhouette. This all one color.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

You know? With this beautiful hair. And I think it really is sort of like a... she's sort of like a visual break from all of the insanity that everybody else is wearing. So I do like...

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

...I do like that, that she looks so different. And that helps her look more magical. And ethereal.

Jojo

Mmhmm. Good job, Whitney Houston.

Sarah

Yeah, I mean, she's great in this role. She's great. Okay, so let's talk about Cinderella's dress finally. Beautiful.

Jojo

Ugh! So beautiful.

Sarah

There are so many iterations of Cinderella's, you know, classic blue or silver dress at the ball.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

And this one is very of its time, you know, it's very late 90s.

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

But I think it's very effective. It's... I had to kind of think about the fact that at the time in the late 90s there weren't nearly as many Cinderellas as there are now. So it had probably been quite a while since people had seen a live action Cinderella. So it needed to be something really fresh and exciting and of the time for it to make an impact. And also, it's exciting that she is black so that makes its own statement too.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

And so it's like she's a-- you know, everything was all about the new millennium. She's like a Cinderella for the new millennium, the Y2K era. [laughs]

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

So I think it's really pretty. It's really simple but it's very pretty. She's got crystals.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

This is where they spent their crystal budget.

Jojo

Probably why they didn't have enough leftover for Whitney Houston! [both laugh]

Sarah

Yes. And then here's her makeup, you can see. Like I said, very matte, just-- only blue, super thin brows, but she looks beautiful.

Jojo

Also very 90s though. You know, it's like that really high contrast light blue eyeshadow was very common at that time.

Sarah

Mmhmm. It's not as-- like, I think that makeup got a lot frostier, maybe the year 2000-ish. Because I...

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

I associate early 2000s makeup with really metallic and frostiness. But she doesn't have any of that.

Jojo

Mmhmm. Yeah.

Sarah

This is the-- this picture is from the "Art of Disney Costuming" book. So it's a nice shot of the silhouette from the side. I like how the bodice extends in the back.

Jojo

Mmhmm. I do love that.

Sarah

The sleeve detail is really pretty, love that. It's sort of got-- this little swag shape is sort of maybe a reference to sort of classic princess gowns, you know. Very pretty.

Jojo

It's the little details.

Sarah

Oh, yeah, I wrote "it fits her perfectly," because it does. Yeah, I think it's really nice. I wrote in my notes, "I think it's okay." And I think I've warmed up to it a little bit more since I took that note. [both laugh]

Jojo

The longer you stare at it, the more it grows on you.

Sarah

Yeah, I think it's really pretty. So here's the ensemble at the ball.

Jojo

Ooh!

Sarah

And this is interesting, because if they didn't have that much of a budget, that makes me go, "where did they get all these dresses that are identical to each other?"

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

I mean, in this shot, obviously, they're not identical. But like--

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

--everybody at the ball is wearing the same colors. So it's a variation of purpley-blue-turquoisey. And then we have Cinderella in very pale blue.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

So it makes me wonder if they found all these gowns somehow, or if they just outsourced them.

Jojo

I wonder if Ellen maybe had some sort of connection with a prom house or something like that.

Sarah

Maybe, yeah.

Jojo

Because that way they have-- you know, they have all the colors, and all the kind of nearby colors in one section. And they do some sort of a studio rental or something.

Sarah

Yeah, maybe they purchased-- because it looks like a lot of them have sort of like a tulle overlay. So maybe it's like they purchased them and then added a bunch of tulle to kind of marry them all together.

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

I grabbed this one because it has sort of a celestial star pattern on the skirt.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

On the left there. And then all the men are in sort of blue-purple tux, suit, things.

Jojo

It's a really nice color palette for sure.

Sarah

Yeah. You know, it does what we always talk about, which is: the leads really stand out, because everybody else is wearing the same colors. So I was really good, and I edited my pictures down. I have no pictures of the prince. I'm sorry.

Jojo

It's real hard. [both laugh]

Sarah

Yeah! I really wanted to talk about the ensemble and all the dresses, so I cut him. I'm sorry. You look very handsome. Okay, so I have some pictures of feet. [both laugh] Just to close out.

Jojo

Some pictures of feet.

Sarah

For all you fans... of feet.

Jojo

Look at those stockings!

Sarah

I know! So I like-- this is the scene where the glass slipper is being tried on all around the kingdom, and it's like a parade of really cute tights.

Jojo

Mmhmm.

Sarah

That's why I pulled all these, because they're all so cute. And this is only three, and there's so many.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

I hate the glass slipper. I hate it.

Jojo

Yeah, it's super ugly. [laughs]

Sarah

It looks like a loafer made of clear vinyl. [both laugh]

Jojo

You're right, it doesn't really have very much of a nice sleek shape, which is what you'd expect.

Sarah

It doesn't look like glass. It looks like Lucite or vinyl. I think the only live action glass slippers I've enjoyed are... the one in the new one. But it was heavily CGI'ed.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

They made them, I think they made them, and they look really like faceted crystal.

Jojo

Uh huh.

Sarah

And then I like the version in "Ever After," where it's kind of just like the heel is glass. And then the rest of it is really beaded silver. It's like a mule.

Jojo

I have to rewatch the movie, but yeah, I think I know what you're talking about.

Sarah

Yeah. And then when they do it on stage, a it's sort of like a stripper heel. But it's really crystaled. So I think that crystals really help sell the sort of...

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

...sparkly glass thing. This is like... not it. [both laugh]

Jojo

Especially when you're zooming in that close to actually look at the slipper up close. It's like, you really want it to look dazzling. And this just does not do that.

Sarah

Also, I don't have any pictures of it, but just imagine just Brandy's feet in these. She wasn't wearing tights. It's just like... toes. [laughs]

Jojo

"It's just like... toes!" [laughs]

Sarah

It's just like, "Welcome to my toes."

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

It doesn't look expensive. I'm sorry Ellen Mirojnick, I don't like them. [laughs] I just don't.

Jojo

At that point, you might have as well wear, you know, flip flops, or like...

Sarah

Well...!

Jojo

If we're gonna see your toes anyway.

Sarah

That transitions me into this, which is the shoes that Brandy takes off to put it on at the end of the movie. This is just like a full Walmart house slipper. [both laugh]

Jojo

Yep. I think I have those slippers.

Sarah

I've bought these for shows where we have an old lady character.

Jojo

Yeah, exactly.

Sarah

Who shuffles around her house.

Jojo

Oh, that's so funny.

Sarah

I think it's kind of hilarious. And I want-- I would love to talk to someone about how they arrived at these.

Jojo

Talk to me, someone. [both laugh]

Sarah

I'd like to know why.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

And my sister was like, "Maybe they didn't like whatever option they had," because earlier in the movie, she's wearing boots. And then she was like, "What if they grabbed these from Brandy's trailer," or from the costuming department, because they were like, "We need something she can just slide on and off really quick!"

Jojo

Right. It also makes me wonder, because, you know, a lot of the thing has to do with sometimes the shoe size you're working with. Because like-- I mean, I don't know what Brandy's shoe size is, but sometimes that can be difficult too. It's like, you'll find all these cool shoes that you want or that you wish you had, but then they don't come in the size of your actor. Or if your actor has particularly big feet, it's a lot harder to find a dainty looking shoe, or a dainty looking something-or-other that they can slip off. You know, that doesn't look like this. [laughs]

Right.

Jojo

So wonder, you know, I wonder if part of it might have also been shoe size, or just, you know, the options of shoes at that time. Because I feel like nowadays, we've really come into a moment where we're really honing in on designing shoes in a very intricate way. And I-- not that they didn't have cool shoes back then. But I feel like, you know, the manufacturing might have been different back in the 90s.

Sarah

Well, and they didn't have Amazon Prime. So...

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

...maybe it was a timing issue where they were like, "Shoot, none of the shoes that we bought for this scene are working." She can't take it off fast enough, or...

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

...it looks wrong on camera.

Jojo

And we can't order something that'll arrive tomorrow.

Sarah

Yeah, so they were like, "Run down to CVS and see if you can find some slippers." Or "go to the wardrobe trailer where they have slippers for people and just grab some," you know.

Jojo

Right.

Sarah

Like, it could have been, it could be... I just want to know. I just want to know what happened.

Jojo

Just tell us!

Sarah

Or if this was very intentional, and they were like, "Yeah, she's wearing house shoes because that's what people wear around the house." I don't know. [both laugh]

Jojo

I mean, I guess in this house where there's so much crazy over exaggeration, it wouldn't be that far fetched.

Sarah

Right! And it-- okay, I'm cautious to say this as a white person. But I know that a lot of people associate this kind of slipper with their black grandma. It seems sort of like... I don't know, I mean, my grandma wears shoes like this around the house too. So I don't know if it's-- if it's an intentional... if it's made to make us think about that, or...

Jojo

Right, right.

Sarah

...if it truly is just like, "This is what we had." I don't know. I don't know.

Jojo

[laughs] So many questions. This is another one of those where we just need to bring Ellen Mirojnick on this podcast.

Sarah

I know! Ellen, if you're listening, please get in contact with us. [both laugh]

Jojo

Please answer our troubles and our woes. [both laugh]

Sarah

Yeah, I mean, I imagine that they didn't intend for anybody to pull the screencap out and talk about the house shoes for five minutes...

Jojo

True!

Sarah

...but it's happened, so you can't stop us. [both laugh]

Jojo

It's already out there.

Sarah

Yep. So that's it for "Cinderella." Please watch it on Disney+, it's a delight. I think that... I am a Rodgers and Hammerstein super fan, and I think that it's a really sort of under-appreciated Rodgers and Hammerstein musical. I loved the 60s version when I was a kid and now I want to watch it again. And see...

Jojo

I don't know if I've ever seen the 60s version.

Sarah

I don't remember a lot of it. I remember that a lot of it looks like it was filmed indoors even when they're supposed to be outdoors. [both laugh]

Jojo

Like, indoors in a studio? Or like, just in someone's house indoors? [laughs]

Sarah

No, like a studio.

Jojo

Oh, okay.

Sarah

Like, sets that were made to look sort of outdoorsy, but they are not fooling anybody.

Jojo

Ohhhh.

Sarah

That kind of vibe. [both laugh] I wonder if it's out there. I wonder if it's on YouTube anywhere. But yeah, so...

Jojo

I'm sure.

Sarah

Watch it. It's a great hour and 20 minutes. And that's... that's it for me.

Jojo

Yay, so exciting! Thanks, Sarah.

Sarah

You're welcome! [laughs]

Jojo

Okay, I will pull up... did we need to take a water break? Or you're doing okay?

Sarah

I think I'm okay. Are you good?

Jojo

I'm doing good.

Sarah

I'm so excited.

Jojo

Me too! Okay, so I'm super excited to be covering "Mirror Mirror."

This is another movie/live action that's been done quite a few times in multiple different varieties: the story of Snow White. I do love the way that this particular film, kind of similar to what you said with Cinderella--or your version of Cinderella--where they really emphasized kind of the strength of Snow White, and almost her independence. Whereas in the original Disney movie, she's a little bit-- I mean, this was their first Disney movie that they ever released, you know.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

I mean, cartoon, I should say.

Sarah

Yep.

Jojo

But, so her-- I think that time period, her character was not as as strong as we see women today. So I love that this version really emphasizes Snow White being able to do things on her own and being able to fight her own battles. And even though there is a love story involved and there is the Evil Queen, it's very much about her kind of finding her own strength and discovering that.

Sarah

That's awesome.

Jojo

So I really love that about this version of Snow White. This particular movie is absolutely a visual feast. It is one of my favorite costume designers. And I'll talk a little bit more about the release first. So, it was released in 2012. So not too long ago. The director was Tarsem Singh, who-- he's actually worked with the costume designer, that I'll talk about in a second, quite a few times. So this was their fourth movie together. I believe he's an Indian director who did, if you don't know-- "Emerald City" is one of the newer shows that he's doing about Oz, which I haven't seen, but I'm very excited because I just love Wizard of Oz stuff. He also did "The Cell" with Jennifer Lopez, "Immortals." And then one of his greatest passion projects, which I had to watch in grad school class, but it is the most beautiful movie I've ever seen... it's called "The Fall."

Sarah

I have heard of-- I know the costumes for "The Fall." I've never seen it, but...

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

... I've seen pictures.

Jojo

Oh my gosh, it's just it's a beautiful movie. It's actually... they say it's his passion project, because it literally took him, I think, like 10 years to to film it.

Sarah

Oh my god.

Jojo

Just because-- and that they were constantly, you know, running out of budget and running out of everything. But again, it's just so visually breathtaking. And that's very characteristic of a lot of his work, which is also why he continually works with the costume designer. So Eiko Ishioka, who's... she's Tokyo born, she actually started out as a graphic designer, but again, she's literally done all of these movies with him. So she did "The Cell" with him, she did "Immortals," she did "The Fall." And then of course, "Mirror Mirror." And I'm a little sad about this because "Mirror Mirror" was actually her swan song project. And she passed before she even got to finish the movie, or before it even got released. Which is, you know, very sad for all of us who lost her because she was such a visionary in terms of costumes, and you can definitely see the graphic design quality of her work. She also won the Oscar for Bram Stoker's "Dracula." So it was the newest version of the movie with Gary Oldman, and Winona Ryder, which is beautiful, if you haven't seen that, that's another great one. And then she also got nominated for a Tony for "Madame Butterfly." So she's kind of done, dabbled a little bit in a bunch of different things. But again, like I said, this was her final project. And what a beautiful project it is. I really love this particular movie, because one of the things I did want to talk about in particular was that this movie really showcases how costumes can really be about evoking an emotion, as opposed to just about the storytelling, because there's a lot of kind of impractical storytelling things that happen in this movie. A lot of the costumes don't necessarily make sense in like, a logical way, when we talk about why she's wearing certain colors or why she's wearing certain shapes and silhouettes. But, boy, you're going to be staring at how beautiful those costumes are. [laughs] And I think Eiko really paid attention to what her costumes look like against the backdrop in addition to just looking at, you know, what she's actually designing. And so just to give you a little bit of background about the sheer amount and number of costumes that she worked with... and I think she she tended to do this with a lot of her pieces. She worked on a really grand scale, and she knew how to do that very well. And she also was just one of those people who she kind of either went 100% or 110% full throttle or she did zero so...

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

...there was never really an in between for her, which is one of the things her director said about her after she passed. So the costumes were made in a combination of places; her shop in Montreal. It was also a combination of New York's Tricorn Costumes, Jennifer Love Costumes, Corelli Costumes, and Eric Winterland Costumes. Most of these places, I have no idea where they are. But I assume a lot of them are in New York, other than her shop in Montreal, of course. So then, in total, she had 400 costumes custom made for "Mirror Mirror."

Oh my god. 400?!

And then she had over 600 costumes that were rented and altered for "Mirror Mirror." Like, that's ridiculous. I can't even begin to talk about how many costumes that is. Like, we talked about the sheer amount of costumes in "Bridgerton"... this... this just overshadows that completely.

Sarah

And this is one movie, and "Bridgerton" is a 10 episode show. That's crazy! [laughs]

Jojo

Exactly! So it's like, the fact that, you know-- if you're going to make this your swan song, this is going to be the one. So anyways, I just wanted to start with all that copious amount of information about her costumes. [laughs]

Sarah

She's a legend.

Jojo

Alright, so I'll start with the-- this is kind of in order in the film. So of course, we see Snow White first in her princess dress. And one of the things that Eiko Ishioka talked about when she wanted to create this costume was that she wanted to tie Snow White in with nature. And it specifically is more seen in the beginning, I think. And of course, she's covered in these flowers. Her time period--because this isn't really set in a specific time period--it goes anywhere from the Renaissance, all the way up to probably the late 18th century. So you'll see a variety of different silhouettes, but again, because there's not a specific time period, and because this is such a fantastical environment, she really had pretty much free rein to kind of do whatever she wanted. So this particular one has a little bit more of a Renaissance silhouette. We've got kind of the the Tudor era little... petals? For her peplum?

Sarah

Yeah, little tabs.

Jojo

Yeah, the little tabs that she's got on her bodice, and then this skirt shape as well as is very Renaissance. Alright, so we've gone over this, she has a lot of florals on her dress and all over the top. It's weird because it almost feels like part of it is peeling off. And I don't know if that was intentional, or if they just use a fabric stamp or... curious. Who knows, that'll be a question, I guess, one day when I meet Ishioka again. [both laugh]

Sarah

In... in heaven? [both laugh]

Jojo

Okay, so this next one, there's a lot of kind of animal creatures that she uses in... there's a particular ball scene where she has everyone dressed in these beautiful dresses, and then she has them each having some sort of animal equivalent. So they have some sort of animal headdress. So this is actually from the ball scene. But Nathan Lane also plays kind of the assistant, very downtrodden assistant, to Julia Roberts, who is our Evil Queen. But I loved this outfit, because I wanted to emphasize the fact that his coat has actually been made to just stand out very much like a cockroach. And spoiler alert, he does get turned into a cockroach for a short period of time later on. So I love that she's already kind of given us this hint that he's gonna turn into a bug and that he already is kind of the bug of the piece because he's so abused the whole time.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

And he's kind of like that bug that you just want to get out of the way. And I think Julia Roberts definitely treats him like that the entire time.

Sarah

Aww.

Jojo

So it works very well. Moving on.

Sarah

Oh my gosh.

Jojo

So this is the first dress that we see Julia Roberts in. So one of the things that I love about how well Ishioka has thought about this is that she's really thought about the entire big picture of this film. It's not just about how beautiful all these details are. She's really paying attention to how the colors of the characters really line up with each other. And I'll talk a little bit about this as I go through, but I love that she constantly has kind of parallel moments in both Snow White and the Queen's life happening in very similar--or pretty much the same--colors. So obviously this is her first appearance and you see that kind of same peach that Snow White is wearing reflected in the peach dress that's worn by Julia Roberts. I love that she's just sitting in this shell-like throne when you first see her, and she's just kind of laid back. The other thing I really wanted to zoom in on, which I think this picture captures really well, is her sleeve. Because it's got this built out almost heart shape.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

But it's just standing there, and then she's also encapsuled that with an additional embroidered diamond, which is just incredible. So, I don't have a lot to say about these first two dresses, I just wanted to put it out there, because they're just so gorgeous. And this is the first thing you see. So it really does, again, introduce you to the world of Ishioka's work, and the remainder of her costumes are going to be pretty much just as spectacular as this.

Sarah

Those sleeves are kind of giving me a Tudor feeling.

Jojo

Very much so.

Sarah

It's like a reference, but it's not literal, you know, it's just kind of evoking sort of the vibe of a Tudor sleeve.

Jojo

Yeah, definitely. And this is kind of where it starts, she actually does get a lot more Tudor...

Sarah

Oh!

Jojo

...in the other sleeve shapes that Ishioka puts on her. So she starts getting kind of those long, draped over-sleeves that are very common from that time period. So yeah, lots of influence from the Tudor period here. Okay...

Sarah

Oh my god.

Jojo

Then we go to the scene... this is kind of a short cut in scene at the beginning to introduce our prince. And I don't have a ton to say about the prince because again, we have to, you know, filter down, but I wanted to pull this picture because I wanted to show just the dwarves and how creative Ishioka was with this. Because it's this fact that, you know, the seven dwarves are actually this band of thieves that kind of steal money from the rich that are crossing through their forest. And so their way of being more intimidating is to be walking, and kind of bouncing around, on these accordion stilts that they just run around through the forest on.

Sarah

That's crazy.

Jojo

And it's funny because you know, when you first see them, you don't think that they're dwarves and you're just kind of like, "okay, who are these random bandits?" And then you realize, when the prince finally gets bested by the seven of them, you just see them kind of all lower down their accordions, and then they shrink down to their actual size. And I wish that I had captured that whole movement down because it's just so hilarious. And you can tell the dwarves in this movie are certainly comic relief. I mean, there's quite a few bits of comic relief here. And it's interesting, because it's Tarsem directing, you can actually tell there's a lot of very Indian, kind of corny, cultural jokes, if that makes any sense.

Sarah

Mmm.

Jojo

Like, you're not necessarily saying things in Indian jokes, but I think there's something about Indian... what's the right word? Filmmaking. That kind of pushes that exaggerated corniness, that you definitely catch in this movie as well. And I'll talk a little bit more about the dwarves in a second. But I just love this image and seeing kind of this very acrobatic and very circus-like feature of Ishioka's work, because I think she's also designed some stuff for Cirque as well.

Sarah

That makes sense.

Jojo

So that having that knowledge definitely makes sense here.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

Okay, so let's talk about the gold robe. So, like I mentioned before, this is totally impractical. anyone trying to sneak out of the castle would not wear something this bright.

Sarah

Bright yellow! That'll be incognito. [both laugh]

Jojo

Yeah, exactly. But I mean, it's so so beautiful.

Sarah

Beautiful.

Jojo

And we'll talk a little bit more about this later on. But there's a really nice foreshadowing moment, because when she wears this giant cloak, Julia Roberts actually wears a very similar silhouette in a cloak shape towards the end of the movie. But hers is in this vibrant blue, and she's kind of riding out at night. And that's when she's trying to actually go after Snow White and kill her. So in this first appearance that we see of Snow White and the gold-- and this is kind of my own notes to myself, so I don't know if this was actually Ishioka's intent. But I love that even though this is obviously not a good way to sneak out of the castle, I love that the gold that she's wearing in this actually sort of represents the sun. And then when Julia Roberts wears a kind of blue cloak to parallel that later on, it's sort of her representing the night.

Sarah

Ohh.

Jojo

So there's a very clear, kind of good-versus-evil. And the best thing... and I'll actually-- let's see, okay, so I pulled this photo, because it's her in the yellow cloak when she's going to visit the town. Because she wants to see the conditions of the town that her father has basically ruled over for a long time. And this is her first experience seeing how poor they've gotten, how the Queen has basically taken over the land and taxed them way too much. But again, it's this idea that she's sort of the golden sun in the midst of this really drab place. So I think, again-- very, very symbolic. I love that even if this wasn't Ishioka's intent, that's kind of what we're seeing here.

Mmhmm.

So yes... and still kind of matching with that same color palette, even though it's a much more vibrant and saturate yellow, it still fits in with the rest of the browns in this scene.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

So then we go to the first gold dress that we see Julia Roberts in, and this dress is actually recycled quite a bit throughout this movie. And this is where I'm talking about that kind of Tudor draped over-sleeve that she's got, and one of the things that I really love about this-- it's actually even more Elizabethan...

Sarah

Yup, that point.

Jojo

...because she's got that really long bodice and kind of that lower neckline. But this is always the color that she wears whenever she enters the mirror world. So her way of entering the mirror-- whenever she says "mirror mirror, who's the fairest of them all," she actually walks through the mirror and then ends up coming up through the water into this deserted wigwam somewhere in the middle of nowhere.

Sarah

I need to watch this movie, clearly, like... this sounds crazy.

Jojo

[laughs] Oh, you haven't seen this movie yet?

Sarah

I was gonna watch it because you're covering it! And then I never got around to it, which happens to me every time.

Jojo

Oh no, it's good, please do watch it. Like I said, it's one of those stories where it's like, the storyline isn't the strongest.

Sarah

Sure.

Jojo

It's very like, okay... kids' Disney, you know, Snow White version. But costumes, man, it's, it's pretty phenomenal. So she's always wearing this gold dress anytime she enters into the mirror. And the way that they've presented the mirror is that it's actually her confronting herself.

Sarah

Mmm.

Jojo

So it's a very kind of Dorian Gray moment where it's like she doesn't want to age. So her way of preserving her youthfulness is actually to trap another soul in this necklace that she has, that she's constantly wearing. And well, you know, I won't really spoil that part of it. But either way, whenever she's facing herself in the mirror, the mirror version of herself that kind of talks to her is this much younger version. And there's this whole joke about how the mirror version doesn't have wrinkles, whereas the real version, or her version, does. So again, every time she enters this kind of holy haven, she's always in this gold. But the interesting thing, again, is that right when we see Snow White kind of entering the town in this golden cloak, this is when we see her in the gold kind of going into her own haven. So it's like they're each kind of going to their own separate outside location outside of their comfort zone that's, you know, maybe their private safety. But they're in the same kind of parallel colors. Moving on.

Sarah

Oh my gosh.

Jojo

So this is the same yellow dress, or gold dress, but I wanted to kind of-- there's a zoomed-in picture of how much pleating they've done on her bodice and on her sleeves, which is incredible. And then, of course, they add even more, that giant Elizabethan ruff to just kind of give her that sort of "head on a plate" effect, which is very common from that time period. So I just wanted to show another quick picture of that.

Sarah

So cool.

Jojo

So let's go back to the dwarves really quick. I pulled this really nice vanity shot of them. Because I loved that Ishioka has really given each of them a character. And they don't necessarily-- like, we don't have a one-for-one. You know, it's not the same Seven Dwarves that are in the original Disney movie.

Sarah

Right.

Jojo

But there's some crossovers here and there, but I wanted to kind of list how she sort of separated them and it's mostly with their hats, which I love.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

So, the guy with the wolf pelt, I kind of equated him with our equivalent of Sneezy, but he's kind of the eccentric one. He just goes around pretty much howling like a wolf all the time.

Sarah

Oh!

Jojo

And that's literally his name, so he introduces himself as Wolf. The metal knight's helmet, the guy in the kind of metal armor--or medieval armor--he's Will Grimm, and he's kind of our Doc equivalent.

Sarah

Mmm.

Jojo

So he's kind of like the smart one. The whole joke at the end is that because his last name is Grimm, he ends up being the one to write all the little fairy tales.

Sarah

Cute!

Jojo

But he's also kind of our leader. And so, you know, he has the helmet to kind of symbolize that. The French leather beret, this is Grub. And he's... I kind of equated it with Dopey, but he's always the one that's hungry. So every line is him being like, "I want more food," or like... food is always the priority. [both laugh] Or he always has to be eating something. And then the leather cowboy hat, he's our Grumpy, so he's the one that kind of out the gate doesn't trust Snow White. We have Napoleon, who obviously is wearing the Napoleonic bicorn hat. And I kind of saw him as... well, he doesn't... I don't really know if I saw him as an equivalent. He didn't have a specific equivalent for him. I think he was the only one that I was kind of like, "I'm not really sure where he belongs." The leather kind of suede liripipe that we've got going on here-- and a liripipe is basically a giant long stocking cap, essentially.

Sarah

Ohh!

Jojo

So it's very much that kind of "Christmas Carol" Scrooge hat.

Sarah

Mmhmm. Yep.

Jojo

But it's all made out of leather here, and he is called Half Pipe. And he's kind of our Bashful equivalent. So he's the one that's sort of overly romantic, he's secretly--but not so secretly--in love with Snow White. And he's just constantly trying to trying to woo her, even though she's clearly...

Sarah

I like how he has wa prince cape?

Sorry, I interrupted you.

Jojo

Yeah, yeah, he's definitely the romantic the entire time.

Sarah

So cute.

Jojo

And he gets weirdly jealous when he finds out she's in love with the prince instead of him. [laughs]

Sarah

Aww.

Jojo

So yes, and then the squished top hat back here, our little Asian one, he's Chuck. They also call him Chuckles, so he's obviously our Happy. And it's just funny because he doesn't-- he's not happy in the normal sense of the word. He does this kind of maniacal sort of crazy laugh a lot of the time. [laughs] But he's always laughing, so. So yes, I love that she's kind of given a hat to sort of symbolize each of these different dwarves and their characters.

Sarah

They look great.

Jojo

Okay, so that's all I had to say about that. I just, I wanted to spend some time on the dwarves, they're just adorable.

Sarah

Oh my gosh.

Jojo

Okay, so then there's a ballroom scene. And of course, the Queen has thrown this giant ball because her plan-- because she's run out of money, instead of just taxing the people which she has also done, she decides that she's going to marry the prince. Who somehow... because he's been basically robbed by these dwarf bandits. And so he ends up in the Queen's court totally in his underwear.

Sarah

Oh!

Jojo

And this happens multiple times, he gets robbed by these same dwarves like three or four times. So it's this really funny running joke throughout the entire movie. But of course, when the Queen sees him, her... you know, her instant thought is, "great. This is a way to solve all my money problems. I'm just going to get married to this prince." And of course, he's not in love with her. He's in love with Snow White. But she holds this giant ball to announce to the public-- she's basically forcing him into engagement with her, right. So at this ball, the idea is that they're constantly changing partners, so it's very much like a speed dating kind of thing. So you dance with one partner, then you switch to the next partner and kind of shift around. And each of the ball members... I didn't pull too many images of the ball, just because I didn't have enough images, and it was too many. So I wanted to pull this particular dress for Snow White. One of the things that Ishioka talked about was that the swan wings almost... and actually, this was not necessarily Ishioka's words, it was someone else kind of making the suggestion, that it was almost like her wish to escape the cruel queen. So that's why she was represented by a bird. Everyone in the scene is actually in some form of cream, so she doesn't actually stand out. And the intention of this is that she's trying to sneak into this ball. So she's hiding, so the Queen doesn't recognize her. But of course, the prince ends up getting paired with her very last minute, even though the queen is trying to dance with him. And he ends up, because he wants to talk to her so long, he spends this whole dance basically pushing other suitors out of the way.

Sarah

Aww.

Jojo

So he just continues to dance with her every time they turn around to switch partners.

Sarah

Cute.

Jojo

So yes, she ends up getting banished into the woods. So this is where she basically gets exiled out of the kingdom. But instead of sending the Huntsman she actually sends Nathan Lane who's, you know, her kind of bumbling cockroach assistant. So of course he doesn't kill her, but basically she ends up in the forest without her wings, in her swan head, in this beautiful white lace gown. And you can see here, there's all this detail in her bodice and her incredible lace gloves she's got on.

Sarah

I was staring at those. Those are beautiful.

Jojo

Yeah, and the sleeves. It's just incredible.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

Okay, I don't think I have it. But there's-- right after this, when she falls in the snow in white, is when the Queen hears back from Nathan Lane. And she is dressed in this head to toe kind of cream night gown.

Sarah

Mmm.

Jojo

So again, parallel colors. I'm going to keep mentioning this, but... not very practical in terms of the story plot, but very much about the symbolic, you know, tying in of all the characters, so she's really looking at the big picture very well.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

Okay, moving on to the peacock dress. So again, this is that same ball scene. She's the only one in the red. And I think I've got a bigger picture. Yep, there it is.

Sarah

Ohh!

Jojo

It's so beautiful. [both laugh]

Sarah

Oh my god.

Jojo

So, you know, obviously there's a lot of Rococo, 18th century, late Georgian era silhouette to this particular dress. But one of the things that Ishioka talked a lot about was that every one of the Queen's costumes has some sort of jagged or sharp edge, something to basically indicate that she's evil, you know.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

Everything about her is very kind of sharp and pokey, and you don't want to get close to her.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

And so that was very, very well done. And I think she was very successful with that. And also the fact that the Queen is constantly this very vain character and so the peacock feathers definitely helps emphasize that as well.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

Okay, moving on. [laughs]

Sarah

Oh!

Jojo

So you can kind of see the peacock feathers are actually the back of the Queen's dress, but I wanted to pull-- this is the one image I pulled of one of the ball dancers. But like, again, each of them was supposed to be some sort of an animal, but like, look at this costume! I don't even know what it is. It looks so gross.

Sarah

It looks pornographic! Like, it looks like...

Jojo

It does! [both laugh]

Sarah

...you know what it looks like.

Jojo

YUP! But I pulled this because again, he's like the fourth or fifth, you know, pairing or guy that's basically switched to dance with the queen. And she's of course waiting for the prince to show up.

Sarah

Right.

Jojo

[laughs] But it's all these gross looking other characters.

Sarah

Is it a walrus? Like, are those tusks coming down?

Jojo

Yeah, I think this is supposed to be a walrus.

Sarah

Okay.

Jojo

But yeah, this particular shot. This was like all I could capture. Because there are no pictures of this online, of course. [both laugh]

Sarah

That's... well, that's a thing... that I'm looking at. [laughs]

Jojo

Yeah, but you know, you'll see that-- and I wish I could pull other images, I'll probably pull a couple extra to put on the YouTube page or something. But there's a couple other pictures of just-- there's a woman who's dressed as a sheep. And she's got these like, giant sheep's horns. And then there's a unicorn and like, it's incredible. I can't even describe the amount of sheer costumes that Ishioka must have designed for the scene. And all the other scenes. Okay, moving on.

Sarah

Oh my goodness.

Jojo

So then Julia Roberts has a green dress. And again, just sheer gorgeousness. I don't have too many notes about this one. But again, that same idea of the ragged edges and making everything look really sharp. This is when she's having breakfast with the prince and basically is trying to convince him that he needs to marry her, and that they're going to have this wedding whether he likes it or not. But one of the things I wanted to focus on was just, oh my gosh, this beautiful open petal that she's created, right in the front. And it just goes to kind of show how creative Ishioka was with the silhouettes that she used, because you're not really seeing this in any kind of history book, you know. Like, yes, you're seeing the silhouette, but just the ways that she reutilizes fabric and creates such structure and like-- it's almost like origami that she's created here. And she's very good at that.

Sarah

She is really-- she was the queen of fabric manipulation and structure, and like, making fabric look the way you've never seen it look before. Like, really manipulating it.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

Like, this doesn't have any trim on it, you know, but it's so visually interesting.

Jojo

Yeah! Yeah, ways to really create texture that we keep talking about without necessarily needing to have embroidery to showcase that.

Sarah

Yeah, or crystals...

Jojo

Even though she also has embroidery too.

Sarah

...or spangles or whatever.

Jojo

Yeah. So again, another color pairing that she's really really good at, I wanted to showcase that the prince is in this almost really deep purple, which he's in quite a lot of the movie. And then just in contrast with the green, she really used this kind of secondary color compliment.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

Okay, so this is the only other gold dress that she's got on. And I wanted to showcase the back because again, just I love a good pleating. But I mean, look at that. It's her night robe! This is like her sleeping gown.

Sarah

Amazing.

Jojo

So this is when she's actually about to drug the prince because of course he's refused to love her. So she finds a potion to basically force him to fall in love with her, and she asks the mirror for this. And of course, the mirror warns her that there's going to be danger, you know, working or playing with black magic. So she ignores that and then ends up giving him this drug, and he drinks it, and she finds out after he's already drank it that she basically gave him a puppy love potion. So he basically ends up becoming like a human dog.

Sarah

Oh no.

Jojo

He starts licking her on the face, he starts jumping on her on the bed, and like-- so it's this weird... and she's like, "whatever, as long as you marry me" kind of thing, "because I just need your money." But again, just focusing on how beautiful the detail is in the work that she's created. And like, she only has the pleating on this train and this tail, and everywhere else is just immaculate. And I think she's also got some really nice knife pleats on her shoulders as well.

Sarah

Beautiful.

Jojo

So then we go to the wedding gown. One of the things I wanted to say about this dress: she's only ever in it for... I don't know. It's really not very long, it's maybe 10 minutes, not even.

Really? Oh, lord.

Which is so sad, because of course she comes to the wedding, and at this point Snow White has been living with the the dwarves. And she's been training, and she's learning how to fight and defend herself. Again, a very independent version of no white... Snow White, wow. "No White." [both laugh]

Sarah

No white. No white allowed.

Jojo

So Snow White finds out about the prince's marriage and basically goes and kidnaps him and tries to break the spell. So she shows up at this giant party, which we'll see some more pictures of the ensemble because they're also incredible. But she shows up at this party with this giant dress, walks in, finds the prince missing, walks back out. And that's the end of the scene. [laughs]

Sarah

Oh lord.

Jojo

I was like, "oh man." But one of the things I wanted to say about this dress is that apparently it weighed over 60 pounds.

Sarah

[gasps]

Jojo

And it was eight feet in diameter.

Sarah

Oh my god!

Jojo

And apparently it was so heavy and just so huge that Julia Roberts actually pulled a thigh muscle when she tried to turn in it! I was like, "wait, WHAT?"

Sarah

Maybe that's why it was only on screen for 10 minutes, or less? [both laugh]

Jojo

So crazy, but apparently this dress, in addition to Snow White's later wedding dress, which we will see, were all made up of up to 35 yards of fabric.

Sarah

Oh my god, so expensive.

Jojo

I was like, "that's insane!"

Sarah

Wow.

Jojo

But again, I mean, everything was-- like, 400 costumes custom made, this is definitely one of them.

Sarah

And she doesn't half-ass any of them.

Jojo

No.

Sarah

Eiko goes all the way.

Jojo

Definitely not, there's no sacrifice of quality in any of these.

Sarah

Nope.

Jojo

Okay, anyways, moving on.

Sarah

Amazing.

Jojo

I'm talking too long about all of these, these are just so great. But this is the wedding scene. So these are all of her guests from the other royal, wherever...

Sarah

Wow, cool!

Jojo

...in the land. And again, just looking at the beauty of all of these costumes. One of the things that I will point out, which I think is so funny, is like-- at some point when the the dwarves and Snow White crash this party to kidnap the prince, you know, because they're all dwarves they all end up squeezing themselves under all the women's skirts to just hide themselves. And so this-- just this one lady that I'll point out, she actually has this giant bustle, and you find out one of the dwarves ends up hiding under her bustle to try and you know, stay hidden. And then she walks away from the bustle and the bustle just stays there! [laughs]

Sarah

Ha!

Jojo

And you realize that it's just a detachable, decorative bustle. [laughs]

Sarah

That's cool!

Jojo

So then you just see the door like pop out, and he's like, "oh, shoot." And so he tries to follow her and basically bumps into her back. But it's just this hilarious moment that she's like, made these very functional, but beautiful costumes.

Sarah

I love it.

Jojo

So just some other close ups, like...

Sarah

Oh wow.

Jojo

...how much color, like, ugh! It's so beautiful. And even the wigs.

Sarah

That's cool.

Jojo

And then she's almost got a pin cushion hat.

Sarah

Yeah!

Jojo

And even his split hair, which is just so crazy. And then again, more pictures of...

Sarah

Wow.

Jojo

...just the-- I mean, these are ensemble characters, like they're essentially background, and she's just put so much work into it. Okay!

Sarah

Ooh.

Jojo

So then moving on to Snow White's wedding dress. And I have a couple images of this. But again, just look at the sheer detail of that smocking.

Sarah

[appreciatively] Ugh.

Jojo

It's just so intricate. And like, I don't know if she did this by hand, or if she had a machine to do this, but like... so crazy.

Sarah

So crisp!

Jojo

And then just the sleeves that she's got. One of the things she talked about was that at the beginning, she's very much about connecting with nature, but by the very end, she wanted this wedding dress to be very much like she was a present, kind of a wrapped present.

Sarah

Aww!

Jojo

And so you'll see that when I turn her around...

Sarah

Oh my god!

Jojo

...so that's the back of the dress, it literally is like just a giant bow on the back of her dress...

Sarah

I love it.

Jojo

...which I love.

Sarah

That's so pretty.

Jojo

So I'm going to focus a little bit on her and the prince's-- this is probably one of the only times I'll talk about the prince's outfit, because it's just so beautiful. But she's in a lot of kind of blues and golden yellows, or oranges throughout this movie. And those are the two color palettes that Ishioka has kind of stuck to with her. And I wanted to focus on this sleeve because I mean... like, look at that ribbon that she's attached just on the bottom of that sleeve.

Sarah

Wow.

Jojo

It's just so incredible. Like, every inch of her costume is just coated in detail and texture.

Sarah

I love the lace. The lace is so geometric looking and delicate at the same time.

Jojo

Yeah.

Sarah

So pretty.

Jojo

Yeah. And it's like, you can tell she's chosen some very particular things. Like, it's not like this is lace you could just buy off wherever online.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

She's clearly made some very intentional choices.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

Yeah. So just some more pictures of the back, I wanted to focus on the back of the prince's as well, because again, just even this ribbon is just so luxe looking. You know, and it's definitely-- it doesn't look like... there's a lot of ribbon that can look like this, but a cheaper version of it.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

So clearly this is sort of a notch up. And then there's the front of his jacket.

Sarah

Oh, I like that.

Jojo

Me too. Like, all the little fringe. There's just a lot of movement, which I love. And then they have a really funny Indian-style dance at the end, where it's very clearly Indian music or Indian inspired music, but then it's just them dancing to the Indian music. So, I'm just picturing him with all these tassels moving back and forth. Okay, just another picture of the dress with her dwarves around her.

Sarah

Pretty.

Jojo

But you can see how vibrant the color is. And I think that's something that Ishioka was really good at, and kind of did magic with a lot of her costumes, because even in "The Fall," it's very similar. Like, she looks very much at the background that they're up against, and then really pushes the vibrancy of her costumes.

Sarah

Mmhmm.

Jojo

Okay, and then I think this is my last one. So the final picture I wanted to focus on was just a picture of one of the guards. Because again, it's such a minor thing, but even the guards have so much detail. Like, she's given them this very kind of fish-like mask, almost. And then they're just in this hardened kind of black leather for the rest of it. So yes, that's all I had. I mean, there's so many other beautiful costumes to look at in this movie that I just don't have the time to cover, but just the level of impeccable precision that she's put into every single costume is so amazing. So RIP Ishioka, we wish we could see more of your work and celebrate more of your work with the world. But yeah, this was just such a beautiful final project. And you know, what a huge feat for her and Tarsem to be able to work on all of these projects together, and be able to do some really beautiful work.

Sarah

It's always so cool when you find out that they work with the same director over and over. And I-- it's always like, oh, that's really nice. Like, they like each other and they collaborate well together. It's always nice to find those people in your professional life, that you're like, "we really come up with good stuff when we're together." You know, that's always cool.

Jojo

Yeah, I think Tarsem mentioned that too. He was like, "once I found Ishioka, I couldn't work with anyone else."

Sarah

I don't blame him!

Jojo

And I was like, "Yeah, that totally makes sense!" [laughs]

Sarah

She was a legend.

Jojo

Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah

Unparalleled.

Jojo

And so humble too. I think that was one of the things a lot of the actors were saying. They were like, "she didn't talk very much, and she didn't have a lot of strong opinions. She was always just smiling." Like, all the time. And I was like, "Oh, that's just so wonderful."

Sarah

That's... that's so nice to hear. Because you've, I mean-- a lot of us have... you know, like, "don't meet your heroes." You know, a lot of famous people are not nice people. So...

Jojo

It's true.

Sarah

...it's really reassuring to hear that somebody you admire was a was a good person, as well as being very talented.

Jojo

Yeah, that's usually how it is. I feel like those are the people we respect more too. It's like, when they're so good at their art, they're totally and fully invested in their art. So it's not about the fame and receiving the recognition. It's about like, "Am I making something that's beautiful that represents who I am, and what I want to give to the world?" kind of thing.

Sarah

Yeah, it should be about the work. It shouldn't be about you, you know?

Jojo

Yeah. Yeah. There's too much ego in our industry. We don't we don't need more of it, if it doesn't have to be there.

Sarah

Amen to that. [both laugh]

Jojo

Cool. Well, that was our episode for fairy tales.

Sarah

Yeah!

Jojo

I'm super excited. This was a fun episode to watch and record and pull together images for.

Sarah

This was a really fun one. I have a feeling this will be a theme that we do several times, because there's just so much fun to be had.

Jojo

Yeah, there's so many fairy tales out there, too.

Sarah

Yeah, exactly.

Jojo

Well, thank you so much for joining us, everyone. We're back to our kind of regularly scheduled movie coverage. But yeah, keep sending us suggestions. I know, we've gotten a few more suggestions already in our comments. So we'll add them to the list. And we'll try to get to them as soon as we can.

Sarah

Yeah.

Jojo

But thanks so much for listening. And don't forget to subscribe if you haven't already. And leave us a review if you can. We're still trying to donate $1 for every review that we get, and we've gotten some really nice ones.

Sarah

Oh, yeah, we really appreciate all of them, and I've been-- like, they make me... they touch my heart. Every time they come in, I get so excited. So thank you so much.

Jojo

It's always so great to hear from people who are listening.

Sarah

Yeah, I mean, I... you know, when we started this, I was like, "I think this is gonna be great. I think we have something, a really good idea." And you know, it's always really validating to know that other people actually like it. And it's not just us talking to each other and a void, you know.

Jojo

[laughs] It's true. It's true. It feels like we are here with a group of other people and not just the two of us talking to one another.

Sarah

Yeah! We want it to be a real dialogue between us and the people who listen, you know, because like we said, we are professionals, but we're not experts. We want to hear other people's opinions and you know, your views, and we want to hear about... we just wanna talk about costumes with you, because it's our favorite!

Jojo

It's true. It's true. And as artists, I think we, you know, we're constantly learning. So it's like, yeah, we're not experts. We know a lot of stuff, but also we're always learning from from other people too.

Sarah

Yeah, definitely.

Jojo

So yeah. Cool!

Sarah

Cool.

Jojo

Thank you, everyone. So I'm Jojo.

Sarah

I'm Sarah.

Jojo

Thanks for joining us on The Costume Plot.

Sarah

We'll see you on the next one! Bye!

Jojo

Bye!

[OUTRO]

Jojo:

Thank you for listening to The Costume Plot! You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at @thecostumeplot. If you have a question, comment, or movie suggestion you can email us at [email protected].

Sarah:

Our theme music is by Jesse Timm, and our artwork is by Jojo Siu. Please rate and review us wherever you listen to your podcasts.

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