#there sometimes i feel like bc some have been guilty of being immoral people with ulterior motives (*coughs* dr.crane *coughs*)

[mad-hunts]

you know, even though barton is pretty consistently active in gotham's underground, there have been two times in particular throughout the years that he just seemed to disappear into thin air for like a month or so. like no one could contact him, and his kids seemed to have nothing to say about the subject + shooed people away if they showed up to his clinic expecting to get medical care when it's actually been closed for an extended period of time. and i still think people have no idea what happened, BUT that's because barton's kids are honestly such real ones sometimes because they kept everything that was happening very private.

the reality of the situation is that he was suffering so deeply from depression that he was not eating or drinking anything and didn't speak / say anything to anyone for a time... so, to say that his depression was really bad would definitely not be an exaggeration. but yeahhh, i was just saying this because i know i made a post about how barton's depression can make it so that he physically can not get out of bed in arkham, but it's also something that plagues him outside of it as well + he has had major depressive episodes where he experienced mutism as i was talking about before and thus, i feel like not only does barton try to check in on his kids (whenever he's not being an arsehole that is jsjsj) but they also check up on him to make sure thing's are okay with him mentally

[lionheartedmusings]

i saw a post earlier that q!tubbo is the only "moral" character even after purgatory and it's kinda kept me awake, not because i don't agree with the sentiment (i do) but because the idea of morality as intrinsically important in fandom / character analysis is fascinating to me, *especially* when we're talking about the morality of someone who's basically just spent two weeks in some eye guy's budget hunger games.

first off, while i fully agree that by the end of this q!tubbo *is* a character that tried at every turn to be kind and generous even to his own detriment, how does that make him more or less "moral" than q!phil or q!fit? he still killed, the same as them. he still strategized to beat his friends, has blood on his hands — why is he marked above x, y, or z in the moral scale?

well, one could argue that he did what he did for his team, for the eggs, and because he was forced to when he was put in the game in the first place, yeah? it's not his fault he's in this position, and he's doing his best to survive it. i personally think that's totally valid and justifiable, but it leaves a huge elephant in the room.

what about everyone else?

i'm going to use q!bad as an example because he's my main pov, and before i go into this analysis i want it known i'm very much playing the devil's advocate and illustrating a point — i am not saying his actions are "good". good? good.

okay. so, q!bad. here we have a non-human father who was told by his missing child to win regardless of the cost, or whomever he had to run over. he had to win. is it immoral then for him to take that to heart and play the game the way it was presented? is it immoral for him to kill for his child, or to be determined to win even in detriment of others? to want to use the same strategies in the battlefield that everyone else would, even if they're not kind or polite?

i don't fucking know, because morality isn't linear — this situation *isn't* linear bc if people will go on the record saying they would kill for their child and are praised for it, what makes q!bad's actions in the universe he's existing in any different?

you can even say that by some perspectives, q!tubbo extending so much kindness to his competitors over and over again was at times (or could've been) detrimental to his team ergo their childrens' lives and yet he still did it. is it more moral to save children or be nice to someone else?

my point being, i feel that the morality argument while very very interesting is kind of irrelevant bc when push comes to shove, characters aren't compelling bc they have more or less morals — i genuinely think a lot of media / character consumption has *actively* been harmed by everyone's need to have the thing they enjoy be "good" or "moral" or "right" bc if it isn't, what does that say about us?

the answer to that one is: absolutely nothing, but man do i think sometimes people in fandom feel guilty if they like or prefer an immoral or grey character vs a "stereotypical" moral one.

anyway, all this to say that i think by the end of purgatory, q!tubbo is the character that was most true to himself and his values from start to finish, and it's been a great watch. is he the most morally correct? eh. who the fuck knows.

[vallcro]

I read all that. ;p And I think it's interesting the psychology behind Joey's actions.

Regarding the bit in your tags, whether or not Tracy should do something bad- I think that depends on where you want the story to go.

Do you want it to be purely self indulgent? Then go ahead with all your favorite tropes and don't pay any mind to what others will think.

Do you want it to be very realistic? Real life victims can still end up doing no wrong but most are flawed because people are flawed.

And if you're lucky you might get both of these at once.

In the end it depends on what you want to do with his character. And how you want it to affect the story. If you'd like you can make his *lack* of action affect his character and story too. And of course you can make an AU of your OCs where something else happens in a different universe.

But I'll ask anyways. Regardless of whether or not he'll actually do something in the story, what would be Tracy's limits?

Would he commit an equally deplorable act and try to get his abuser to abuse another kid to set himself free?

Would he come up with some sort of self defense and abuse Joey back?

Would he do something that's actually moral but might seem immoral to someone who's been manipulated, like reporting his abusers?

I Think The Psychology Behind Joeys Actions Is Also Interesting Bc I Don’t Really Understand It And I’m The One Writing It LOL

When I Write I Like Writing Things I Think Other People Would Enjoy As Well As Myself So Idk If I Want It To Be Entirely Self Indulgent Just Mostly Bc There Is A Lot Of Ppl That Enjoy Smol Bean Bottom x Big Mean Top Like I Do

Honestly I Can’t See Tracy Actually Doing Something Super Bad The Worst Thing He’d Do Is Probably Be Mean To His Little Sister In Typical Middle Child + Big Brother Fashion And Calling Joey The F Slur Despite Knowing He Struggles With Internalized(And Tbh Externalized) Homophobia But Thats Not Like Awful And Most Defiantly Not Comparable With Being A Perpetrator Of SA And DV

So The Worst Tracy Is Gonna Do Is Be A Little Mean And Sassy Sometimes

For The Doing Something Moral That Might Seem Immoral Bc He’s Been Manipulated And Shit: Idk If This Is Considered Like A Morally Good Thing To Do But I Wouldn’t Say It’s Bad But Tracy Defiantly Feels Guilty Abt The Whole Thing With His Moms BF Even Tho He’s Technically Aware That What His Mothers BF Does Is Sexual Abuse And In Any Other Case The Victim Would Never Be At Fault He Still Blames Himself And Can’t Help But Feel Like He Did Something To Bring It On Himself His Brain Def Flip Flops Between “You Have A Perfectly Good Reason To Not Tell Your Mom Finding Out She Got With A Child Predator Would Kill Her + He Threatened You” And “The Fact This Has Been Going On For So Long And You Haven’t Told Your Mom Is Proof Your Basically Asking For It ATP Your Just Fucking Your Moms BF Bc You Want To” So He Definitely Feels Like He’s Doing Something Immoral There

I’m Still Trying To Figure Out If I He’ll Eventually Tell His Mother Abt Her BF Or Not My Original Plan Was For Joey To Be The One Who Helps Tracy Be Able To Finally Tell His Mom Abt It But I Think That’s Giving Him Too Much Credit TBH LOL Joeys Probably Worried If Tracy Realizes He Has The Ability To Report One Abuser He Might Realize He Has The Ability To Report Both Rendering Joey Both In Trouble With His Parents, With The School They Go To Probably, And Maybe Even The Law As Well As Leaving Him With One Less Tracy In His Life </3

Even Though Joey Beats On Tracy And Hates The Idea Of Anyone Else Touching Him He Also Genuinely Loves Tracy Even If He Has A Strange Way Of Displaying It

[joanofarkansass]

Part 33 Meta

Ok watching “Part 33” Law and Order: SVU S20E14 and it’s such a good character study of all the SVU characters. For context the case is when a woman, Annabeth Pearl, kills her abusive husband. The episode is spliced between he team is waiting there to testify for Stone and the case itself and is shot entirely in the courthouse (which is smart move on the writers part it really narrows the scope and sets it apart from a regular episode). The viewers really see the team’s attitudes toward justice, morality, and duty especially how it intersects -- and occasionally interferes -- with their jobs. Spoilers obviously 

Sonny- He’s the most outwardly emotional out of the gang and the audience can see how he really empathizes and cares about justice for Annabeth instead of justice to Annabeth, despite her being the defendant. He argues passionately with Rollins and on the stand adds his own (legal) conjecture to his testimony with Stone, putting doubt on the loving marriage between Annabeth and her husband, directly undermining Stone. Drawing back, Sonny knows that cases don’t end when they leave the squad-room and the victim’s and perpetrator’s futures continue into the courtroom and he takes his moral compass seriously. He’s studying to be a lawyer. In his job as a cop his job is to back up the ADA and land a conviction, but he doesn’t believe she should go to jail (that her killing was justified) so on the stand, sure he tells the truth, but also does whatever he can to get her justice. Though his earnestness is a little self absorbed, it’s genuine and well meant and I think this will serve him so well as a lawyer. It’d be interesting to see in later seasons when he’s a ADA what he will do when he has to persue a case he doesn’t morally agree with.

Liv- her monologue about being in a abusive relationship and the little things that strip away your dignity is heartbreaking (Mariska you deserve an Emmy for this scene btw) (it’s also connected to the abuse she suffered at the hands of Lewis). She cares so much for the victims, it’s her greatest asset, and here it’s confounded by her strong duty to the law. This case is simple. Annabeth, according to the law, deserves to go to jail. She wasn’t in physical danger from her husband (not that anyone can prove at any rate). But Liv also knows that shooting her husband was the right thing to do in order to get out of that situation. Illegal, but right. These parts of her are at war (just like with that donor heart episode and Alex Cabot episodes in S19) and she chooses to tell the truth--to put Annabeth away-- because in the end the rule of law can’t be subverted no matter how immoral it can be

 Rollins. Oh darling, you’ve been through so much shit. Like, lets be real here the entire team has, but you especially. And the unfurling of her backstory, with her father beating her mother and her consequent resentment of her mother for failing to protect her and Rollins is heartbreaking. She was a child and those complicated, complicated emotions distilled in her, to the outside eye’s, in a confusing (illogical) way. She occasionally victim blames and we can see the origins of that tendency here in how her mother, herself a victim, failed to protect her and keep her family together. Is that fair? No. Is what Rollins went through fair? No. And like how what Liv went through with Lewis affected her and her work, what Rollins past affected her work and outlook too. We see it in her advocacy for “innocent until proven guilty” and her belief in the strength of the victims even at the worst point their lives. So yes, she believes in the law. She believes that Annabeth should be in jail. For her, that’s right. *

Stone- it’s easy to see him as the bad guy here, but for me it was a lot more nuanced than that. Part of it is a performance of course, he’s a prosecutor trying to get a conviction (if he wants to win he can’t be playing for the other side), but he does genuinely believe he’s getting justice. Especially as a ADA, he sees the worst of humanity and puts them to justice for it. He takes what the cops give him and make sure it stick that victims get justice. You can’t subvert the law, its the law. In order for anything to get done, there has to be some black and white. Guilty and Innocent. Truth and farce. And no matter how moral it may have been- no matter what Annabeth felt- she still killed her husband in cold blood. And just as her husband should have been accountable for his actions, she has to be accountable for hers. Nuance belongs at sentencing, but she did it. That’s what he’s trying to prove. 

Fin- We love some depth!! Fin can sometimes be treated as a one note character, and I’m glad Ice-T got to stretch his leg this episode. His whole facade “this is just another case to me” is peeled back by Liv and his story about throwing a fighting fish back into the bay was a touching way of showing his true feelings. He doesn’t believe she belongs in prison. But it’s not his place to judge, it’s the law’s. The law may not always be just or kind or even moral, but (on the whole) it’s consistent. It’s fair. And if we subvert it, we face a worse life than if we had one. 

I also really liked the ending. We don’t see the verdict, just Annabeth’s expression of horror as Liv testifies that she didn’t feel remorse about killing her husband, effectively nailing the lid on her coffin. It’s not ambiguous, the audience knows that she’s going to jail, but it stops that the emotional climax- Liv’s testimony. It doesn’t draw out the inevitable, it leaves the audience pondering the same questions that the team did. Is the law always just? What would you do if it wasn’t? Is it even your place to judge?

Thanks for reading! This was just an emotional reaction from me after watching the episode for the first time and I’d love to hear your reactions.

- Joan

Tagging some people bc I’m really proud of this: @hurricanejjareau, @qvid-pro-qvo, @writefasttalkevenfaster, @crazyshannonigans, @ssaic-jareau

PS: Personally, I’m in Fin’s camp. The law is there for a reason and if we broke it for any injustice it would eventually encroach on personal freedoms. Is it disgusting that he abused Annabeth? Without a doubt. Is it legal? Sadly, yeah. And until the law changes, it’s our duty to follow it. Should it be changed? That is the question. (this is just my opnion btw and I totally get and respect if you disagree)

*Do I believe Rollins should be in therapy? Hells yes. Her perspective is valid and needed as a counter part to Liv and Carisi more emotional ones, but it’s coming from a place that isn’t good. 

[queen-scribbles]

📊 🚼 💋 for Tavi; ⛔️ 📢 👧 🌎 🎭 🎁 for Adi; ⏰ 💔 🐜 🌎 for Charity; 🔗 🌠 🍟 🌺 for Emiri?

TAVI

📊 - How does your muse feel about the state of the world? Could it be better? Could it be worse?

Oh, the world’s a fuckin’ mess, but there are pockets of beauty hidden in with all the terrible shit. Find those and life’s not so bad. Like almost everything, the world could always be both better and worse, depending. She’s pretty sure, though, that she’s never going to see the absolute worst it could be, unless things unravel way faster than she thinks they will in the aftermath of the Eothas Shenanigans in Deadfire.

🚼 - How would your muse react to losing a child? How would they cope?

OH boy. She would not handle it well, I think. At all. I mean, no parents copes well with losing their child, but given she’s already lost her parents and brothers (though she potentially has Khellin back by this point), I think it would be even worse for her. There would be lots of drinking the first week or two, lots of swearing, isolating herself from everyone except Aloth bc crying is a level of weakness she’s only comfortable showing around him. She would probably have some very strong, decidedly uncomplimentary words for Hylea(starting with (”FUCK YOU, WHY?”).

Though, I guess, there are a few influencing factors that might change things a little; how old a child, how they die… (esp. if, say, a godlike who gets *ahem* converted for their parent god she would be very. scary. indeed. But that’s a plot bunny I don’t want to chase bc that way lies many sad and terrifying things)

There would be healing eventually, though never complete, bc Tavi is nothing if not resilient.💋 - How does your muse feel about people who cheat? Do they see a reason for it, or is it completely immoral?

Fuckin’ assholes. She wants to break their faces in. In her opinion, if you’re in a relationship you need to cheat on(that you feel safe cheating on), just leave it. 

ADI

⛔️ - How does your muse react to others breaking the law? If they would do it themselves, what is their reasoning?

She’s not really comfortable with it, but in some circumstances understands and would turn a blind eye if there was no other way for her to help. She knows sometimes parents steal food to feed their children etc. And in some places the law–whether the statutes or the people enforcing them–is corrupt, and in those situations, her view is more “do the best you can to help and protect the innocent”👧 - What is your muse’s relationship like with their siblings? Who do they get along with best?

She gets along pretty well with all her siblings. None of them are as curious as she is, so their eyes tend to glaze over a little when she goes off rambling about something new she learned, but she forgives them for that. She’s probably closest with Ben, actually. He’s the oldest of the siblings, ten years older than Adi. When the next kid down the line came along(Tia, three years younger than Adi), their mom was a little overwhelmed. Ben wound up playing with Adi a lot to keep her busy and from being too clingy while Mom was taking care of Tia. They bonded, and she’s been really close to him ever since.🌎 - Does your muse want to change the world? How would they go about it?

(I hope this is right. The symbol didn’t show up, but there’s only one on the list like that, so hopefully I still got the right question xD)

She has no large-scale dreams of changing the world, no. But she wants to see as much of it as possible, and leave everywhere she goes better than she found it, so between those two things, she probably will change it, at least a little.

🎭 - How does your muse handle their emotions? Do they bottle them up or pour them out as soon as they start to feel?

Oh, she’s very open about her emotions, especially when she’s excited about something. Negative stuff she might try to hide, but she has a very expressive face, so it never lasts long. This girl walks around with her heart on her sleeve no matter what.

🎁 - Does your muse celebrate their birthday? If yes, how do they celebrate? If no, why not?

Yes. At home, there would be a big meal with all her favorite foods–and Ben probably invented some new dish that she’ll love as a surprise–her family spends the day together, there might be presents, and she definitely spends a lot of time reading.

CHARITY

⏰ - Does your muse feel like they need to do things quickly or do they take their time?

I mean, once she has a task in mind, she doesn’t see a point to dillydallying. She’s going to get to work. But she’s very patient, and understands some things take time to accomplish(knitting, for example), so she paces herself on those in order for them to still turn out good.💔 - How would your muse react to losing a romantic partner? How would they cope?

She’d be a wreck for a while, no matter what.  If he broke up with her, she’d spend some time on self assessment, figure out if she did something that made her less attractive as a partner, and fix anything she might find. (If she doesn’t find anything and this is all on him, well, then, the wrecked stage will be much shorter) If she’s lost him because he died, she’s gonna grieve a really long time. That whole “perils of loving deeply” thing; the more you care, the more it hurts. She’d probably keep some article of clothing of his to wear when she misses him

🐜 - How does your muse feel about animal lives? Do they treat them the same way they’d treat a person, or do they feel they’re inferior?

She loves animals and values them pretty highly, but not quite the same level as a person. Like, if there’s a person and an animal totally helpless and in danger, she’s going to try and save the person first, but she’ll feel really guilty about not being able to save the animal too.

🌎 - Does your muse want to change the world? How would they go about it?

Nah, the last time she tried to be vocal about making things better, she essentially got run out of town and her parents threatened. She’ll stand up for what’s right, but doesn’t want harm coming to the people she cares about as a result, so she tends to focus on smaller scale things.

EMIRI

🔗 - What are your muse’s standards for meaningful relationships? How quickly do they form relationships like these?

Mostly just the ability to form a strong emotional connection with someone. Shared interests are a bonus, of course, but not necessarily a requirement. Someone she can trust, who treats her like an equal, preferably alright with hugs and such as gestures of platonic affection, bc her Love Language is physical touch. The speed these relationships form varies depending on the person, tbh. She and Aloth bond really, really fast, like before they even get to Caed Nua. Hiravias it takes a little bit, but the two of them do wind up really good friends(a lot of their bonding is through the ‘The Gods Fucked Me Over But Good’ Club (his phrasing not hers) so the actually relationship doesn’t start developing til later in the game. Edér and Kana are sort of in the middle, Sagani’s another fast one(though that’s almost more Emiri imprinting on her like a baby duck who needs a mother figure at first).🌠 - Would your muse make a wish on a star? If so, what would they wish for?

She might, but wouldn’t more than half believe there was a chance of it coming true. She’d probably wish for either the guts to tell Kana she likes him or to remember her family better so maybe she could try and find them.🍟 - How does your muse feel about their body? Would they change it if they could?

She’s pretty okay with her body. She’s occasionally regretted being godlike simply bc that’s the reason she got snagged by the pirates, but she’s pretty comfortable with her body and I don’t think she’d change anything. (Being moon godlike–the most accepted one–probably helps)🌺 - Does your muse have a favorite flower? Why do they like it?

Either Admeth’s Wyrt or Pilgrim’s Crown, both just because they’re pretty.

[cookinguptales]

You know, honestly, I think the biggest red flag to me on tumblr for propensity to join a cult-like New Religious Movement would be if someone started to show strong anti tendencies. I think sometimes people have the wrong idea about the kind of person who joins a cult. People who join cults are often highly educated folks who want to believe they’re better than others. Cults feed into the idea that their members are “special”, that only they can see the real truth to the world, and that people outside their cult group are immoral and/or ignorant. They tend to come as “updated” versions of older religions; in other words, new prophets show up who bill themselves as a continuation of an existing line of theology. They might discover a new secret book of the Bible (that only True Believers can see) or their leader might be a new incarnation of Jesus or Mohammad, or they might build on Buddhist or Shinto ideals, or they might cash in on vague concepts of “new age” religion (i.e. “I trained with yogis in India” or “I found a Buddhist monk in the mountains”, whatever might sound exotic and mystical to the listener).

The big trend in successful NRMs is that they have enough history to them (via piggybacking on existing ideas) to seem plausible, but are different enough to make their adherents feel “special”. They often offer adherents special powers, or tell them that only they can tell who’s a good or a bad person -- with their leader’s help, of course. As a result, one of the biggest indicators of a cult-like personality is an eagerness to create in and out groups based on a perceived sense of (often moral and intellectual) superiority, and the desire to adhere to these groups even when privately questioning details of the party line. (In other words, well, I may not agree that this one kind of shipping is bad, but if I disagree with everyone else in the group on this one subject, I’ll be lumped in with all the dirty creeps who enjoy the things I think are wrong.) People who disagree with the party line in cults are often put back in their place via moral-driven degradation, social ostracization, removal of priorly-offered support systems, and a general breakdown of self-esteem. Disagreement or even questioning is heavily linked with being a morally and intellectually inferior person, so if a person disagrees with their leader, they will feel (or will be made to feel) guilty, as if they’ve done something wrong.

The point is, a cult will originally set itself up as a safe space for a “wronged” (martyred) intellectual who needs somewhere to fit in. (Either someone who feels wronged by society or someone who actually has been emotionally damaged in some way.) The cult will tell someone over and over that they aren’t wrong; the rest of the world is. They have been wronged by people outside the group, and only this new group can help them. You will feel like an insider as long as you abide by the group’s rules. The group is doing good on an intellectual, moral, or metaphysical level, the group is saving people, and you will be saving people if you stay in it. They give people a sense of purpose but, more importantly, they give people a sense of superiority. This is why cult members often feel most betrayed (and subsequently, the cult falls apart) when it becomes clear that their leader is not living up to the moral standards demanded by the movement.

I’m not gonna say that all New Religious Movements are harmful (especially because, let’s be real, most mainstream religions we have today could be termed as NRMs at some point in their history) but they definitely can be. A religious movement that seeks to further isolate its followers from everyone outside an “in” group is one that worries me. It also worries me when they dissuade members from true self-reflection, instead having them only reflect on whether they are loyal to the group’s positions.

If I had to think of several tumblr subsets that I would think would be susceptible to NRMs (and guys, please don’t go after these people if you want to start a NRM), I’d say antis, furries and otherkin (bc of habits of reification, using each other to normalize in-group concepts, and feelings of misunderstood martyrdom), people who are really into things like sporkings/rating communities (i.e. people who are really sensitive to superiority highs), and honestly just anywhere you see uber-intellectuals navel-gazing. Which is all of tumblr, and admittedly even this blog. I think I would have been pretty susceptible to a NRM when I was about 14, truthfully speaking. Tumblr skews young, which makes people here even more susceptible -- though IRL, cults tend to choose older people who are capable of giving money/possessions/power.

Also, anyone who seems fuzzy on the borders between reality and fiction. Like hell, that’s how thanfiction did it.

Anyway, my point is that most people seem to think that “stupid sheep” are the type to join cults when really it’s people who think things like “stupid sheep” that end up getting embroiled in them. Join whatever religious movements you want to join, including New Religious Movements, but please beware when any group you’re in, new or old, religious or otherwise, starts puffing you up and telling you you’re better than your peers and only you can really understand what they’re telling you and if you follow what they say ~you can reach the stars~. Like nothing good is ever gonna come of that.

EDIT: oh also people who get morally superior about food/dietary/activity habits, they’re probably pretty vulnerable, too. I don’t know as much about that side of tumblr, though, so I don’t want to make a hard judgement.

[serenagaywaterford]

16) another thing that connected them in S2. Motherhood. Which is weird. Bc Serena is delusional about Nicole being hers. k) "how nobody really paid proper attention when it was building."And I mean, isn't this INCREDIBLY realistic and terrifying? Being inactive, indifferent about others and especially apolitical and undermining the threat...History is like a circle, always repeating itself in the end. I may be critical of the series, but its political observations are always on point. Like

17) that episode where June is separated from Hannah (at the same time the US-Mexico border crossing takes place). l) "Nobody deserves what those women get but it’s important to think critically about these characters and if June recognises she was idle until it was too late, I think as viewers we should be able to say the same" June makes it VERY clear that she feels guilty about i. her last interactions with her mother, ii. her inactivity. That's not victim blaming. It goes WITHOUT saying that

18) that NO woman deserves Gilead. Period. m) "Although I am also someone who counts restorative justice as a viable option for some crimes. I don’t think punitive/retributive justice is always the answer." As if I didn't have enough reasons to like you. I'm with you and I hear you. However, I do understand that some methods are not very feasible IRL due to various limitations. Back to Serena. What do you think will happen to her on the show? Will she survive Gilead's destruction? Will she stand

19) a democratic trial for her crimes? Will she get killed before Gilead goes down? Will she get lynched by an angry mob? I think I'd like it if the series dived more into the dark subjects of mob mentality and eye-for-an-eye types of punishment, but with flipped roles. Sth along the lines of "Can some victims (and their families) become as cruel as the Gilead!criminals in their quest for revenge?" There are the particicutions and Emily's arc, but still. n) "Maybe you have a theory? It’s one of

20) those things I don’t get. Is it cos she’s jealous June has a child and she doesn’t? Is it just a power play thing?" I think it's a combination of both actually. In S1, it's clearly the latter. Serena's being cruel and manipulative: she lets Hannah briefly see her child in order to emotionally torture her. But in S2? It's mostly the former. Obviously, Serena is envious of June's pregnancy, why wouldn't she be of Hannah? Especially given that Hannah (unlike Nicole) comes from a happier place

21) time in June's life. (Aka "God has blessed this /immoral-sinful/ woman with 2 children, why not me?" That must stink.) Another reason that she denies her that time is bc she feels betrayed that her prisoner tries to manipulate her, instead of befriend her. *eye roll* Duh, Serena. (Aka "After everything I've done for her and this is how she repays me." Bitch. You've done NOTHING. Try again.) Her desire to connect with sb, bc she doesn't have anything/anyone left anymore, makes her

22) desperate and a little naive/dumb, lol.

---------

I am so onboard with k) to m)! I can’t really add anything more of value (or interest) lol cos to me it just seems so obvious. I don’t know why some people miss it. Although I think EVERYBODY was sort of knocked sideways by how relevant the Hannah/June thing was with current US events. Hit a little too close to home. And GOOD.

You’re very right. Restorative justice is limited by a lot of things, but in theory, I do find it a positive angle to approach some kinds of crime. It’s a small scale sort of thing, generally, and very time and effort intensive process.

As for Serena’s fate... OHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhh. Sometimes I don’t like to think that far down the line cos I honestly do not see her getting anything even remotely happy. How she ultimately is dealt with, I don’t know. It really depends on the points the show wants to make. Will it be hopeful, will it be retributive, will it be melodramatic, will it be depressing af? Do they care about how angry viewers will be? Do they have enough for Serena to DO to make it to the final seasons or will her usefulness as a character expire early? (I’d wager they’d want to keep Yvonne around as long as possible but I’m biased.)

Personally, I suspect she’ll be held accountable in a democratic legal system. Although the thing that makes me pause is how Tuello suggested she defect. He very much presented an idyllic future. Now, it could have been a lie to trick her into turning herself over to the (remaining) US for punishment. But, on the other hand, they seem to REALLY want her propaganda. I don’t totally doubt that they see Serena as more valuable as a source of intel/propaganda than to hold her accountable. At this stage, arresting and sentencing her for her crimes wouldn’t really accomplish much for the US yet in the grande scheme of things. IMO, anyway. She seems a better asset for them than a convict or POW locked away/dead somewhere. 

>> “Will she get lynched by an angry mob? I think I'd like it if the series dived more into the dark subjects of mob mentality and eye-for-an-eye types of punishment, but with flipped roles. Sth along the lines of "Can some victims (and their families) become as cruel as the Gilead!criminals in their quest for revenge?" There are the particicutions and Emily's arc, but still."

I fucking LOVE this approach. It’s something I’ve rolled around with for quite a while. If you’re going to deal with mob mentality in terms of the creation and continuation of a fascist system, what about the other side of human reality? Mob mentality can easily swing the other way with the right tinder and spark. Like, we see absolutely justified anger and disgust by survivors/refugees in Canada and then comes the question of what constitutes reasonable reaction to such a repulsive regime. Is violent mob revenge the answer? (I honestly can’t make that determination. I’ve never been in anything remotely like war or fascism.) Maybe it is. Maybe it’s not. And it is the sort of thing I think THT could deal with. Like you said, it’s sort of touched upon with Emily. But put that on a large scale. Is violence sometimes the answer? Is war the only answer with totalitarian regimes? How to you truly hold war criminals responsible?

Of course there would be viewers praising a mob if they kill Serena. I’ve seen people admit as much on this hellsite. (I dunno if I can make a judgement on that either but I personally find that perspective incredibly problematic. But it begs the question: what is justice then?) I think it would be incredibly disturbing to see. Yet, I’m also someone who thought June should have shot them lol. (Not really truly. But I felt the urge to see it during that episode--when I got over the fact the box she was opening wasn’t actually crackers but shotgun shells lol. But it really doesn’t fit with June’s character. Like she considers killing Serena more than once (3 times IIRC), but never does because it’s simply not right and she’s not that sort of person.)

Personally speaking, I don’t want Serena killed. Other characters, I hope die in painful ways. *coughfredcough* *coughallthemeninpowercough* But having her killed by a mob would be quite impactful. And not, imo, all that unrealistic. I just don’t want it. I don’t need absolutely everything to be brutally honest and realistic. Gimme some of that feelgood hope lmao.

>> Another reason that she denies her that time is bc she feels betrayed that her prisoner tries to manipulate her, instead of befriend her. *eye roll* Duh, Serena. (Aka "After everything I've done for her and this is how she repays me." Bitch. You've done NOTHING. Try again.) Her desire to connect with sb, bc she doesn't have anything/anyone left anymore, makes her 22) desperate and a little naive/dumb, lol.

WORD, LMAO. TO EVERY SINGLE WORD re: Serena/Hannah/etc. (ITA agree and thank you for your perspective on the Hannah thing!) 

Like she’s so delusional/in such denial. Serena, girl, you’ve done literally nothing of actual substance for her and often times went out of your way to make things 100x more miserable for her and then wonder why she won’t be your BFF? Just cos you think your jail warden is your friend (Fred), doesn’t mean it’s actually true and transferable.

(I love it? (Not in the way that I think it’s good, morally. Just story/character-wise. It’s so interesting to me how weird and sad she is sometimes.))

In a way I actually feel sorry for Serena, even if she did get herself into this disaster, and she’s perpetuated it in the worse possible way she could. (She’s so unbelievably cruel, esp in S1, and then throws a tantrum when June doesn’t just fall into her arms, so to speak. C’mon, lady.) I think that's what I love about her character. She’s so wrong on so many levels, but she still evokes quite strong feelings the other way as well. Like, her growing desperation and loneliness and need for connection as Gilead goes on is actually... sad? I know many, many fans who bristle and word-vomit at just the suggestion of any such feelings towards her.

I dunno. I’m an idiot and a sucker cos I think when she actually connects with June (and loses the insecurity/jealousy), there’s a whole other person. It’s really fascinating how she changes. And switches back and forth. (Yeah, yeah, I’ve read the criticisms that that’s typical abuser behaviour but... ah. Like I said, me=sucker. I won’t deny I totally understand it but. Gah. I think it’s more complex. Am I woobifying? Yikes. I hope not.)