#then youre a radfem and should look at black feminism and actually listening to the people in your community instead of your echo chamber

[xmimikyuusx]

The conversation of whether a trans man has male privilege should not be apart of the conversation of our oppression as much as it should not be when talking about if a trans woman experiences male privilege. If you bring it up like it's some important "well, if you experience male privilege you're evil/not oppressed so you dont matter" you need to put down the radfem juice pretty please

[anti-terf-posts]

Hi, this may not be the right place to ask, but I’m just wondering what’s so wrong with radfem ideology? I can’t really find any proper resources detailing why it’s wrong, besides screenshots of either toxic people saying toxic things, or screenshots of tradfem blogs. My own research hasn’t brought up anything either, as I can’t really find radfems saying anything horrible like a lot of anti radfem posts describe them saying. Again, sorry if this is the wrong blog, feel free to ignore this ask if that’s the case!

BEFORE WE BEGIN: I AM NOT AN EXPERT. I USED ARTICLES WITH NUETRAL OPINIONS ON RADICAL FEMINISM, AND BASED MY OWN OPINIONS ON IT. USE THIS AS A SOURCE AT YOUR OWN RISK

This one is actually kind of tricky, because some radfem beliefs are actually very valid and are arguably reasonable.

For example, Wikipedia states, "Radical feminism is a perspective within feminism that calls for a radical re-ordering of society in which male supremacy is eliminated in all social and economic contexts" Which like, totally makes sense! The patriarchy needs to be dismantled entirely in order for women to have true freedom.

However, radical feminism dismisses the idea of legal/class based misogyny, which is ridiculous, considering the fact that women in higher classes often have more power over lower class women, and sometimes even enforce gender roles against lower class women (making them do household chores like taking care of the children or cleaning the house for them, etc.)

And let's not forget the racism rooted in radical feminism. Radfems claim that misogyny is the most basic form of oppression, which completely erases the oppression of people of colour, which has been around since almost forever.

In fact, in the early days of this movement, many black women refused to associate with radical feminists due to their ignorance of oppression against women of colour. It was only after radical feminists began to listen to woc, and start including them in their feminism that they decided to join the ideology.

Moving the discussion over towards prostitution and pornography. Radfems believe that both of those are inherently bad things. It is true that women in lower socioeconomic classes have a higher chance of being prostitutes, but it shouldn't be true. Yes, women who are coerced into sex work in any way should have the freedom to quit, but this should not clash with a woman's freedom to join the industry if she wants to.

So, sometime after the radical feminism movement was started, radical lesbian feminism began.

These women believed that they were helping women fight oppression and misogyny simply by being lesbians, because "heterosexuality inherently oppresses women". This statement is incompatible with the belief that women should have the freedom to do what they want. If lesbians are unable to control who they're attracted to, then why isn't that the same for heterosexual women? And let's not ignore the blatant biphobia that comes with that. A bi woman should have the freedom to choose to be in a male/female relationship without judgement (as long as she isn't being coerced into the relationship) and saying otherwise completely erases bi women's experiences as queer people.

Speaking of queer people, we all know and love the classic TERF, or, FART, as I like to call them. (Also, if you couldn't tell, I was being sarcastic about loving TERFs. No one loves TERFs.)

Trans Exclusive Radical Feminists believe that the trans movement "perpetuates patriarchal gender norms," and "is incompatible with radical feminist ideology."

If you couldn't tell, this is greatly untrue. Radical feminism just believes that we need to get rid of the patriarchy and has nothing to do with how people identify. If you take a look at pretty much any article that discuss radical feminism, you'll see the history of anti-trans rhetoric being spread by the ideology.

Being anti trans is probably what radical feminism is most well known for. Over the course of many decades, the ideology has become less about women's movement, and more about punishing trans people for their existence. Hell, even a quick search of "radical feminism" on this god forsaken site will reveal that their main motive is no longer about women's liberation and has now become all about oppressing trans people.

As my mum put it; "it's the cycle of abuse. These women are so traumatized by the patriarchy and misogyny, that they feel the need to abuse the easiest target."

To recap, the radfem ideology is racist, biphobic, and most notably, transphobic. And if that's not enough to convince you that it's problematic, I don't know what is.

[pumpumdemsugah]

I know frequently the “anti terf” people lie about this straight up but sometimes they don’t. Here’s an example where clearly there are links between “disagree with trans ideology due to feminism” < - > “like anything “transphobic” because edgy” < - > “disagree with trans ideology due to trad/mra racist alt right views”

https://www.tumblr.com/ladiablesse/729815657616736257/the-fact-that-this-post-of-all-things-ended-up-on

As fucking typical the right wing n word saying bullshit starts right after https://www.tumblr.com/americanette reblogs it

She doesn’t say it but she does say some mra bullshit about how the real sadness here is men aren’t protecting women as they rightly should 🙄

Then within the next hour here come

https://costcohotdogandsoda.tumblr.com/

(Also with Bible verse in bio)

Saying “average n*gger behavior.”

And https://www.tumblr.com/anew-jackson

Saying ““black men are inherently violent”

radfem 🫱🏽‍🫲🏻 radright”

Where op is still off base is the majority of the notes on her post are actually radfems or adjacent and none of them at all lead to right wing blogs picking it up

Plus of course some people just don’t look at who follows them and of course there are right wing assholes who deliberately try to pick off anyone with the slightest disagreement with the main leftist view.

I can’t blog about issues to do with Palestine for example without a bunch of antisemites following me and trying to convince me to be antisemitic about it. That doesn’t prove my views about Palestine are inherently antisemitic — they very much aren’t. Same for how radfems/gc end up being with attracting a lot of right wing actually-transphobic (and sexist and racist and homophobic) attention.

But please people if you are at all connected to blogs like americanette that shit seriously — taking time to disengage our arguments and discussion in all spaces online and off from the right wing will do more for us than the next 10 gc memes you bother to make and post. Don’t lie, you’ve got the time.

This also isn’t like working with your normie right leaning cousin on abortion because she agrees with you about that. You aren’t making connections here you are being made a patsy to keep you alienated from the left and to keep more women on the left from joining us in an actually revolutionary feminist movement. Right wing people online absolutely know the more they get you to openly connect with them the more they can use that to keep young women in particular away from listening to you about feminism

Hypothetical you btw I am sending this to a few different blogs because I bothered writing it and don’t have a rf blog to put it on yet. I’m pretty new. I know this works because it worked to keep me away from learning more about rf for a long time. Not the rumor of racism and FAR right wing connections being ignored or celebrated but seeing the evidence. Hypothetical you btw I am sending this to a few different blogs because I bothered writing it and don’t have a rf blog to put it on yet. I’m pretty new.

Hi there, I've never seen most of these people and you sending this is validating because after I was recommended a post by one of these people ( a generic fuck men type post from Tumblr recommendations tab ) , I thought their blog felt racist lol

It's funny how I went to block all these people and some were already blocked. Anyone male, white and Christian on here is usually a white supremacist.

I can keep my ask anonymous and have a peaceful time on here because I block racist and porn obsessed misogynists whenever the random nonsense comes on my dash, that's the only time I go out of my way to go onto people's blogs and block everyone that replies and likes their posts and blogs they reblog from because I'm not checking otherwise

Someone sent me a message a while ago about white nationalist being on my Black Femicide post and I used that to block a bunch of people so maybe that's how some of them were already blocked by me. I don't really check the notes of my posts so I really appreciated that because they don't care about Black women they want to spread white supremacy

Anyway thanks 👍🏾

[rotationalsymmetry]

Yeah I really want to lean in on this a bit, because one of the weird things about tumblr, culturally, is there isn't a lot of feminism on here that isn't radfem stuff. Violence against women (including white women) is a feminist issue and is a big deal, and it is worth being concerned about.

But, as queeranarchism says, true crime dramas misidentify where most of the danger is, and they sure as fuck misidentify where safety is. True crime shows present the narrative that cops = safety. Cops have huge rates of domestic violence. Cops regularly commit murder and get away with it. If you happen to want to protest anything or go on strike, or want or need to do things that happen to be illegal (like, idk, crossing a border), or happen to be part of a group that's seen as innately "criminal" regardless of how law-abiding you personally are, cops are dangerous.

Nor do cops do much for the vast majority of actual illegal acts. Are the cops going to help you if your boss is committing wage theft? Are the fucking cops going to help you if your landlord was legally obligated to fix your leaky roof and clean up the black mold six months ago and still hasn't? Are the cops going to do anything to protect you from medical malpractice or embezzlement or the scam texts that I get every day? Of course not. That's not what they do.

And this thing keeps happening where of course everyone hates rape and child abuse, and yet quite a lot of people have this really odd idea that most of that stuff is committed by scary dark-skinned others and gun violence is caused by mentally ill people and basically, that the real bad stuff ultimately comes from identifiably "bad people". But rapists are the dad at the potluck who tells the corny jokes and ...this idea that there's "safe" people like your friends and community members and "dangerous" people like that homeless guy who talks to himself or outsiders or, idk, people who are too into Dungeons and Dragons or whatever. It's just not true. The dangerous people are people you already know.

This stuff doesn't look how people think it does. Rape is mostly committed, not with physical force, but with intoxicants. It's usually committed by someone the victim knows, a friend or acquaintance or date or spouse. CSA is usually committed by someone the child knows well, often after spending a long time building a close relationship (that's what grooming actually means, more or less, not mentioning the existence of sex or queer people.) These things are bad and horrifying and they fuck people's lives up -- and there's things that can be done about them! Just talking about what rape really is and isn't is huge! Bystander intervention! Hotlines! Giving people who are being abused a place to go! Having good social support/mutual aid so that people don't have to choose between staying in known abusive situations or going without things they need! In particular making sure the most vulnerable people have resources and support! But cops aren't it.

Cops are ...you know how sometimes a place will have a pest problem and rather than going "hey, we've fucked up the ecosystem, maybe we should try some ecological restoration or listen to what the people who lived here before us think we should do" or something, they just go and bring in a different invasive species, and then you have two problems, the initial problem species and the one that was supposed to handle it? That's what cops are. They're pouring water on a grease fire.

Violence against women, and other forms of violence, are a huge problem. Cops make that problem worse, not better. (And fuck, in particular I really don't see how anyone can go "patriarchy is the root of all oppression, what can we do to mitigate it, I know we can give a bunch of guys guns and legal permission to use violence, that will definitely not make things worse.)

true crime is becoming to girls what ww2 is to boys

[womenfrommars]

So I have a theory about misogyny, and correct me if I'm wrong about this. I do believe that misogyny goes much deeper than social conditioning, and it affects women to behave misogynistically against other women the same way as men do. Of course men are much more violent and dangerous than women are, don't get me wrong. But I think by this stage in human development, misogyny has become coded into our DNA. In other words, and at the risk of sounding like a doomer black piller, but this really pushes the concept of there being no hope for women to be an actual reality rather than as an idea. Look at the way women beat each other up and murder each other JUST to have one man be with them. Look at the way women rip each others' throats out in those embarrassing radblr gossip blogs, and how it doesn't take long before women form tight little groups to go against other types of women they don't like or who are different from them via racial groups, sexual orientations, etc. Despite our best effort to congregate, support, and uplift each other, it all unfortunately has a by-date until we just fight each other. Even without men around us actively, put all women inside a room, and eventually, they just snap and hurt each other. Because someone else is luckier and she needs to know that. Because another woman lead an easier life for one reason, and she should be humbled by that. Because another woman is prettier, or some other stupid shit. A woman is never a woman first and foremost. She is this group, that group, your oppressor, my enemy, someone to fear and loathe. It really burns me that upon leaving radical feminism, the one group I seriously thought would give me hope for myself as a woman, it will continue to attract other vulnerable women into it and then they receive a shock when they realize, that although they are oppressed for their sex, suddenly they are oppressors of other women for whatever other group they happen to be in. Radblr scoffs the idea of identity politics, but then plays right into it at the end of the day. Just for the pleasure of finally being able to dunk on the woman who reminds them of someone else who traumatized them or bullied them in the past. I know you're not a radical feminist per se, but have gender critical ideas that agrees with them. I just needed to get this off my chest. It's hard for me to admit this before, but now, I can't see a light at the end of the tunnel for women. Women would rather put each other in their place rather than putting aside their differences, and shifting the focus on the real enemy. I've seen this play out in other political and religious groups... but to see this in radical feminism, though? That basically seals the deal and we're all going to never make it out alive in this sexist world. I give up. Godspeed and best of luck to you. You were one of the more intelligent bloggers I've seen in these radfem/gc circles, and I'm sorry for all the shit other people have put you through. I think we just have ourselves in the end, all alone, to try to make the most of life as women, with no support from anyone else, man or woman. Sorry for long anon.

Hi anon, sorry for not answering earlier but I didn't know what to say. I think blackpillers often suffer from depression which results in a more negative outlook on society. Maybe you should consider looking into whether or not you have depression. I think you can still make contributions to feminism in your day to day life as well simply by listening to women or giving women opportunities to speak in conferences. If you want to focus on yourself first and foremost that is very understandable. You can't really help women as a whole if you're broken yourself. It's totally fine to heal yourself first and then look into returning to feminism or not

[star-anise]

why would your social environment affect if you identify as a woman or nb?

I don’t know if you meant it to be, but this is a delightful question. I am going to be a complete nerd for 2k+ words at you.

“Gender” is distinct from “sex” because it’s not a body’s physical characteristics, it’s how society classifies and interprets that body. Sex is “That person has a vagina.” Gender is “This is a blend of society’s expectations about what bodies with vaginas are like, social expectations of how people with vaginas do or might or should act, behave, and feel, the actual lived experiences of people with vaginas, and a twist of lemon for zest.” Concepts of gender and what is “manly” and “womanly” can vary a lot. They’re social values, like “normal” or “legal” or “beautiful”, and they vary all the time. How well you fit your gender role depends a lot on how “gender” is defined.

800 years ago in Europe the general perception was that women were sinful, sensual, lustful people who required frequent sex and liked watching bloodsport. 200 years ago, the British aristocracy thought women were pure, innocent beings of moral purity with no sexual desire who fainted at the sight of blood. These days, we think differently in entirely new directions.

But this gets even more complicated, in part because human experience is really diverse and society’s narratives have to account for that. So 200 years ago, those beliefs about femininity being delicate and dainty and frail only really applied to women with aristocratic lineages, and “the lower classes” of women were believed to be vulgar, coarse, sexual, and earthy, which “explained” why they performed hard physical labor or worked as prostitutes.

Being trans or nonbinary isn’t just or even primarily about what characteristics you want your body to have. It’s about how you want to define yourself and be interpreted and interacted with by other people.

The writer Sylvia Plath lived 1932-1963, and she said:

“Being born a woman is my awful tragedy. From the moment I was conceived I was doomed to sprout breasts and ovaries rather than penis and scrotum; to have my whole circle of action, thought and feeling rigidly circumscribed by my inescapable feminity. Yes, my consuming desire to mingle with road crews, sailors and soldiers, bar room regulars–to be a part of a scene, anonymous, listening, recording–all is spoiled by the fact that I am a girl, a female always in danger of assault and battery.”

She was from upper-middle-class Massachusetts, the child of a university professor. A lot of those things she was “prohibited” from doing weren’t things each and every woman was prohibited from doing; they were things women of her class weren’t allowed to do. The daughters and sisters and wives of sailors and soldiers, women who worked in hotels and ran rooming houses, barmaids and sex workers, got to anonymously and invisibly observe those men, after all. They just couldn’t do it at the same time they tried to meet the standards educated Bostonians of the 1950s had for nice young women.

Failure to understand how diverse womanhood is has always been one of feminism’s biggest weaknesses. The Second Wave of feminism was started mostly by prosperous university-educated white women, since they were the people with the time and money and resources to write and read books and attend conferences about “women’s issues”. And they assumed that their issues were female issues. That they were the default of femaleness, and could assume every woman had roughly the same experience as them.

So, for example, middle-class white women in post-WWII USA were expected to stay home all the time and look after their children. Feminists concluded that this was isolating and oppressive, and they’d like the freedom to pursue lives, careers, and interests outside of the home. They vigorously pursued the right to be freed from their domestic and maternal duties.

But in their society, these experiences were not generally shared by Black and/or poor women, who, like their mothers, did not have the luxury of spending copious amounts of leisure time with their children; they had to work to earn enough money to survive on, which meant working on farms, in factories, or as cooks, maids, or nannies for rich white women who wanted the freedom to pursue lives outside the home. They tended to feel that they would like to have the option of staying home and playing with their babies all day. 

This is not to say none of the first group enjoyed domestic lives, or that none of the second group wanted non-domestic careers; it’s just that the first group formed the face and the basic assumptions of feminism, and the second group struggled to get a seat at the table.

There’s this phenomenon called “cultural feminism” that’s an attitude that crops up among feminists from time to time (or grows on them, like fungus) that holds that women have a “feminine essence”, a quasi-spiritual “nature” that is deeply distinct from the “masculine essence” of men. This is one of the concepts powering lesbian separatism: the idea that because women are so fundamentally different from men, a society of all women will be fundamentally different in nature from a society that includes men.

But, well, the problem cultural feminism generally has is with how it achieves its definition of “female nature”. The view tends to be that women are kinder, more moral, more collectivist, more community-minded, and less prone to violence. 

And cultural feminists tend to HATE people who believe in the social construction of gender, because we tend to cross our arms and go, “Nah, sis, that’s a frappe of misused statistics and The Angel In the House with some wishful thinking as a garnish. That’s how you feel about what womanhood is. It’s fair enough for you, but you’re trying to apply it to the entire human species. That’s got less intellectual rigor and sociological validity than my morning oatmeal.” Hence the radfem insistence that gender theorists like me SHUT UP and gender quite flatly DOESN’T EXIST. It’s a MADE-UP TERM, and people should STOP TALKING ABOUT IT. (And go back to taking about immutable, naturally-occuring phenomena, one supposes, like the banking system and Western literary canon.)

Because seriously, when you look at real actual women, you will see that some of us can be very selfish, while others are altruistic; some think being a woman means abhorring all violence forever, and others think being a woman means being willing to fight and die to protect the people you love. As groups men and women have different average levels of certain qualities, but it’s not like we don’t share a lot in common. The distribution of “male” and “female” traits doesn’t tend to mean two completely separate sets of characteristics; they tend to be more like two overlapping bell curves.

So, like I said, I grew up largely in rural, working-class Western Canadian society. My relatives tend to be tradesmen like carpenters, welders, or plumbers, or else ranchers and farmers. I was raised by a mother who came of age during the big push for Women’s Lib. So in the culture in which I was raised, it was very normal and in some ways rewarded (though in other ways punished) for women to have short hair, wear flannel and jeans, drive a big truck, play rough contact sports, use power tools, pitch in with farmwork, use guns, and drink beer. “Traditional femininity” was a fascinating foreign culture my grandmother aspired to, and I loved nonsense like polishing the silver (it’s a very satisfying pastime) but that was just another one of my weird hobbies, like sewing fairy clothes out of flower petals and collecting toy horses.

Within the standards of the society I was raised in, I am a decently feminine woman. I’m obviously not a “girly girl”, someone who wears makeup and dresses in ways that privilege beauty over practicality, but I have a long ponytail of hair and when I go to Mark’s Work Wearhouse, I shop in the women’s section. We know what “butch” is and I ain’t it.

But through my friendships and my career, I’ve gotten experiences among cultures you wouldn’t think would be too different–we’re all still white North Americans!–but which felt bizarre and alien, and ate away at the sense of self I’d grown up in. In the USA’s northeast, the people I met had the kind of access to communities with social clout, intellectual resources, and political power I hadn’t quite believed existed before I saw them. There really were people who knew politicians and potential employers socially before they ever had to apply to a job or ask for political assistance; there were people who really did propose projects to influential businessmen or academics at cocktail parties; they really did things like fundraise tens of thousands of dollars for a charity by asking fifty of their friends to donate, or start a business with a $2mil personal loan from a relative.

And in those societies, femininity was so different and so foreign. I’d grown up seeing femininity as a way of assigning tasks to get the work done; in these new circles, it was performative in a way that was entirely unique and astounding to me. A boss really would offer you a starting salary $10k higher than they might have if you wore high heels instead of flats. You really would be more likely to get a job if you wore makeup. And your ability to curate social connections in the halls of power really was influenced by how nice of a Christmas party you could throw. These women I met were being held, daily, to a standard of femininity higher than that performed by anyone in my 100 most immediate relatives.

So when girls from Seven Sisters schools talked about how for them, dressing how I dressed every day (jeans, boots, tee, button-up shirt, no makeup, no hair product) was “bucking gendered expectations” and “being unfeminine”, I began to feel totally unmoored. When I realized that I, who absolutely know only 5% as much about power tools and construction as my relatives in the trades, was more suited to take a hammer and wade in there than not just the “empowered” women but the self-professed “handy” men there, I didn’t know how to understand it. I felt like I was… a woman who knew how to do carpentry projects, not “totally butch” the way some people (approvingly) called me.

And, well, at home in Alberta I was generally seen as a sweet and gentle girl with an occasional stubborn streak or precocious moment, but apparently by the standards of Southern states like Georgia and Alabama I am like, 100x more blunt, assertive, and inconsiderate of men’s feelings than women typically feel they have to be.

And this is still all just US/Canadian white women.

And like I said, after years of this, I came home (from BC, where I encountered MORE OTHER weird and alien social constructs, though generally more around class and politics than gender) to Alberta, and I went to what is, for Alberta, a super hippy liberal church, and I helped prepare the after-service tea among women with unstyled hair and no makeup  who wore jeans and sensible shoes, and listened to them talk about their work in municipal water management and ICU nursing, and it felt like something inside my chest slid back into place, because I understood myself as a woman again, and not some alien thing floating outside the expectations of the society I was in with a chestful of opinions no one around me would understand, suddenly all made sense again.

I mean, that’s by no means an endorsement for aspirational middle class rural Alberta as the ideal gender utopia. (Alberta is the Texas of Canada.) I just felt comfortable inside because it’s the culture where I found a definition of myself and my gender I could live with, because its boundaries of what’s considered “female” were broad enough to hold all the parts of me I felt like I needed to express. I have a lot of friends who grew up here, or in families like mine, and don’t feel at all happy with its gender boundaries. And even as I’m comfortable being a woman here, I still want to push and transform it, to make it even more feminist and politically left and decolonized.

TERFs try to claim that trans and nonbinary people reinforce the gender identity, but in my experience, it’s feminists who claim male and female are immutable and incompatible do that. It’s trans, nonbinary, and genderqueer people who, simply by performing their genders in public, make people realize just how bullshit innate theories of gender are.. Society is going to want to gender them in certain ways and involve them in certain dynamics (”Hey ladies, those fellas, amirite?”) and they’re going, “Nope. Not me. Cut it out.” I’ve seen a lot of cis people who will quietly admit they do think men and women are different because that’s just reality, watch someone they know transition, and suddenly go, “Oh my god, I get it now.”

Like yes, this is me being coldly political and thinking about people as examples to make a political point. Everyone’s valid and can do what they want, but some things are just easier for potential converts to wrap their minds around.. “I’m sorting through toys to give to Shelly’s baby. He probably won’t want a princess crown, huh?” “I actually know several people who were considered boys when they were babies and never got one, and are making up for all their lost princess crown time now as adults. You never know what he’ll be into when he grows up.” “…Okay, point. I’ll throw it in there.” Trans and enby people disrupt gender in a really powerful back-of-the-brain way where people suddenly see how much leeway there is between gender and sex.

I honestly believe supporting trans and enby people and queering gender until it’s a macrame project instead of a spectrum are how we’ll get to a gender-free utopia. I think cultural feminism is just the same old shit, inverted. (Confession: in my head, I pronounce “cultural” with emphasis on the “cult” part.) 

I think feminism is like a lot of emergency response groups: Our job is to put ourselves out of a job. It’s not a good thing if gender discrimination is still prevalent and harmful 200 years from now! Obviously we’re not there yet and calls to pack it in and go home are overrated, but as the problem disappears into its solution, we have to accept that our old ways of looking at the world have to shift.

[radfeminist-suggestions]

howdy so... i think i might be a TERF or at the very least a radfem. I identify as lesbian and personally i think trans women are nice and all but I would only date one if she actually LOOKS like a woman. Like even if she’s butch as long as she looks feminine... and as long as a trans guy still looks feminine i can get attracted (bc some of them just look like butch women). I have a discourse blog (@dramatic-dyke) but im scared of posting TERF stuff there. Pls help! -Zelda

I'm a lil confused here but whatever

It's a discourse blog. You either woman up and post what you feel is relevant to your beliefs, question freely, engage freely with others or you don't. If you want to be open to listening to Radical feminism, do it. The worst that can happen is a mutual blocks you. You get put on a black list.

You should never be afraid to engage with an ideology that is actually harmless. Be brave and post things. You would be surprised at how many people actually will agree with you.

[aizenat]

Jfc the way yall rush to excuse the fact that the majority of WHITE women see their options and choose that fucking man again and again just baffles me.

Let’s have a real conversation instead about white women’s commitment to the white patriarchy. Why? Because there ARE benefits from it. They get to be upheld as the ideal type of woman (the amount of brown men in relationships with them who voted for Trump is probably a LOT higher than brown men in relationships with women of the same race who voted for Trump lbr). Why do yall think these women can’t be seeing everything and coming to the conclusion that they don’t care about female solidarity, and don’t think being subjugated by men is “that bad.” You got girls doing tik toks like “I hate feminism for making me have to go to work,” but they’re just indoctrinated due to religion and shit.

Want to know why this argument doesn’t fucking work? Do you people think BLACK WOMEN are not women? Do you think BLACK WOMEN are not raise with that same “indoctrination?” Do you even LISTEN to the man vs women convos being had online? Do you not see how much money time and energy Black women put into looking feminine per the white patriarchy standards? The way we don’t—and in some situations, straight CAN’T—wear our hair the same texture it grows out of our head because it’s not straight and blowing in the wind like y’all’s? Do you think Black women don’t grow up religious, being told if we spread our legs, we’re whores and deserving of being some poor baby mom on welfare?

Black women go through this same indoctrination: more aggressively so I’d wager. Because I see MORE black women online nodding along to podcast bros saying women need to be more submissive and “let men lead.” I see more Black women leading femininity “classes” on how to be a girly girl that men will want to marry. BLACK WOMEN MAKE UP THE HIGHEST DEMOGRAPHIC OF RELIGIOUS PEOPLE (in Christianity) IN THIS COUNTRY!!!!!

Black people as a whole are, almost notoriously so, more socially conservative than the general public! If republicans could get their racism under check, they’d have the Black vote in an instant because most Black people are actually more in line with their way of thinking in terms of social issues and bring down social services and security nets!

And yet how did we vote?

91 FUCKING PERCENT OF US VOTED FOR KAMALA!

OUR FUCKING CONSERVATIVE, MANOSPHERE-LOVING, AGGRESSIVELY MISOGYNISTIC MEN VOTED MORE IN LINE WITH US THAN YALL DID! Fuck, our men were less in alignment with Black women (14% disparity with us versus literally half that with only a 7% disparity between yall), and STILL voted for Kamala at much higher rates than yall! You have no excuse!

Like yall can’t keep getting away with this lol. You’re straight lying now, making up excuses. The amount of women you’re taking about are at MOST maybe 5-10% of the women voting for Trump. But the majority of them? THEY LIKE TRUMP.

They were at the rallies cheering for him. They were buying his merch. Yall just like him. Stop trying to run from that reality. White women love white supremacy and will choose that over gender solidarity any day of the week. And that’s the MAJORITY of yall! And you fucking radfems would rather spend more time trying to make us sympathetic to poor widdle white wimmins whose husbands probably made them do that.

Stfu. This is why Black women STAY pointing out your racism. Because if that WAS happening to white women, it would be happening to us too. And yet we STILL outvoted yall by insane numbers against Trump. What is not clicking? Do you think Black women aren’t women who would face similar pressure? We get indoctrinated our entire lives with patriarchy too. Some of the Black women who voted for Kamala don’t even believe women should be president but knew we just couldn’t accept THAT motherfucker! Or what, do you think Black people got some magical protection from that indoctrination where we can be statistically more conservative and religious and therefore more aligned with what the republican party wants, but still never vote against our best interests the way you white women and poor whites do EVERY. FUCKING! ELECTION?

I’m done having sympathy for yall. I’m done being understanding to the poor conservative women with their big scary conservative men as if ppl don’t get together typically with ppl who align with their politics. As if every woman I know with a trump supporter man wasn’t online on social media posting memes daily up until the election about how bad Medicare for all and socialism is for making ppl complacent. As if I don’t know MANY white women who voted for Trump this year while being the sort of woman married to a man of color (with mixed race babies) or the sort who exclusively dates brown men.

Just know this: BLACK WOMEN SEE YOU. They see bs posts like this and we see how you are choosing trump supporting white women over us. I have more in common with the libfems who voted for Kamala and are looking at the majority of white women voting for Trump like “wtf are yall doing get it together!” significantly more than I have in solidarity with so called “radical feminists” who’d rather rehash that racist Dworkin’s “Right Winged Women” novel than fucking deal with the fucking racism in your community. Because yall will ALWAYS choose each other and yourselves over anyone brown. Solidarity my ass. Fuck all the way off.

While I’m fully aware there are plenty of racist, misogynistic, and overall shitty women in America, I do wonder what percentage of women were coerced into voting for Trump by the men in their lives

[depresseddarlingdear]

Look this conversation is clearly going nowhere. We both agree that the dataset doesn't break down the information enough. We just disagree on innocent until proven guilty in this circumstance.

Also I appreciate you taking the trouble to try and source multiple articles but if you can't be bothered to read the one link that literally started this thread to see that it's about offender rates that would include other penalisation such as fines, community service, or bail/parole instead of just incarceration I don't know what you can expect from me.

If you don't understand that terf is literally just a buzzword rather than a collection of extremely disparate views and opinions on feminism then I'd suggest actually looking into radical feminist discussions. We are united by wanting to further the cause of women worldwide and there is a lot of disagreement about how that happens, so yes, there can be splits in topics like prison abolition. But it's hardly a core tenet. I for one happen to be incredibly proud of the efforts of Australian feminists fighting to address community concerns that have dramatically cut the number of indigenous women entering the prison system in recent years.

You really should address the anti-feminist and anti-black takes in your own community and listen to black radfems before you make so many assumptions. A significant number notable radical feminist organisations in recent decades have arisen from Africa, Asia and the Middle East. So to pretend it's somehow a eurocentric phenomenon is demonstrably false.

I don't mind if you want to call me radicalised, whatever. But don't claim that I'm somehow trying to encourage systemic violence against a marginalised group by noticing and wanting protections for another marginalised group based on century old patterns of violence against them.

"they retain the statistical likelihood of being one" not supported by any actual research, but of course being assigned male at birth forever infects someone with their likelihood of committing certain crimes in spite of all study in the real world

I'm not sure you understand how statistics work. It's not an 'infection' or even something that explains why something is happening. It's simply a measure of what is happening

So regardless of nature Vs nurture (both of which have extensive research to back up each school of thought) what we know is that men are the ones committing the vast majority of crime worldwide.

https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/people/crime-and-justice/recorded-crime-offenders/latest-release

Take my home nation for example, men hover at or above 300% more likely to commit crime. That is simply a fact. You should also note this is recorded via sex rather than gender because being able to identify in and out of a recorded group only messes up statistical data. Something particularly visible in nations where transgender women's crimes are being counted within female datasets.

I welcome any research you can present that shows that transgender women do not share these same rates of criminality. But I'm afraid you'll find tthat it's "not supported by any actual research" :(