#the thing is it often tends to be misdated

[fideidefenswhore]

Hi there,

So I attended one of Claire Ridgway's events recently called the Men Behind the Throne. Talks were on the Tudor monarchs' advisors. Caroline Angus did a talk on Cromwell (she has a new book out on him) and in it she claimed that Anne Boleyn hated Cromwell from the beginning. Whereas, he for his part was always looking out for Catherine and Mary's interests. Apparently, he was also very loyal to Wolsey and played a big role in Thomas More's downfall. Is there any evidence to back up the idea that Anne hated Cromwell? In recent years more historians seem to be leading towards the belief that they weren't so chummy. However, I am not an expert on where most historians stand on this topic. She sounded like she was pushing the belief that anyone who supported COA and Mary: good. Anyone who supported Anne: bad narrative.

Whereas, he for his part was always looking out for Catherine and Mary's interests.

Yeah, that view has been a semi-recent development...it doesn't seem to have been the unequivocal belief of their advocate, though (depending on which moment in time, of course):

Cromwell has always given me to understand that he is much devoted to the Princess; nevertheless, I have found no evidence of it, except words […] [April 1535]

And as far as I'm aware, this author doesn't doubt the veracity of Chapuys' judgements (especially when it comes to Anne Boleyn), but, you know, selective reliance on his dispatches would not be anything singular to her in this genre.

Diarmaid MacCulloch, John Guy, and Julia Fox are the most recent to espouse that view (but about with the Boleyns, in general, not solely Anne).

As for the Wolsey factor...again, evidence is mixed. Missing from the Mantel narrative, for example, is that Thomas Winter, Wolsey's son, wrote that Anne, as Queen, spoke "very kindly" to him. Now, this doesn't negate the likelihood that Anne had hated his father and hardly mourned him (it doesn't seem like it was her credo to spite the family of her opponents; for example the Duchess of Norfolk was her adversary, but she highly favored her daughter, the Duchess of Richmond); but it is compelling insofar as the view that those affiliated with Wolsey unequivocally blamed her for his downfall and misfortune.

Yes, there is evidence, but it's mixed at times. They were battling for influence over HVIII, they were battling over the best ways to steer reform*, etc.

*[...] Crumwell, Wrotisley, and certain others, who, as report says, hated the Queen, because she had sharply rebuked them and threatened to inform the King that under the guise of the Gospel and religion they were advancing their own interests, that they had put everything up for sale and had received bribes to confer ecclesiastical benefices upon unworthy persons, the enemies of the true doctrine, permitting the godly to be oppressed and deprived of their just rewards. 

Usually the 'smoking gun' for that theory about their contentious dynamic is that according to Cromwell, via Chapuys, Anne had said she'd like to see "his head off his shoulders", but context is sometimes missing, I don't often read this parsed as thoroughly as I believe is its due:

Cremuel said lately to me that were the Lady to know the familiar terms on which he and I are, she would surely try to cause us both some annoyance, and that only three days ago she and he had had words together, the Lady telling him, among other things, that she would like to see his head off his shoulders. "But," added Cromwell, "I trust so much on my master, that I fancy she cannot do me any harm." I cannot tell whether this is an invention of Cromwell in order to enhance his merchandise. All I can say is, that everyone here considers him Anne's right hand, as I myself told him some time ago. Indeed, I hear from a reliable source that day and night is the Lady working to bring about the duke of Norfolk's disgrace with the King; whether it be owing to his having spoken too freely about her, or because Cromwell, wishes to bring down the aristocracy of this kingdom, and is about to begin by him, I cannot say. (June 1535)

The source here is Chapuys, and the chain of report means this exchange is thirdhand: Cromwell is telling Chapuys of it, which means we can't exclude the possibility that either Cromwell is exaggerating (to ingratiate himself to Chapuys, 'the enemy of my enemy' etc) or that Chapuys is likewise (to urge Charles V, as he often does, to do anything from push for excommunication to invade England, based on evidence that Anne&Henry are extremely hated by everyone save "their party"-- or maybe even members within-- and thus any action taken against them will only increase his popularity, power, prestige, by gaining the support and gratitude of many, etc).

And Chapuys' own judgement of Cromwell's account seems cautious: he admits he can't tell whether or not this is true, and he admits that if it is, it's very contrary to the popular perception of their dynamic (of Cromwell as Anne's "right hand").