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not-freyja · 7 months ago

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Honestly, I don’t understand what you mean by “which version.” There is only one version of the Legend of Zelda timeline, and it is constructed by the narratives in the games themselves, not just thrown out there to appease the fans. Admittedly, there are some gaps in it, and that is where theorizing and conjecture and fan meta-analysis come in; but before we get to any of that we have to establish the facts.

Delineating canon from non-canon information.

When something is referred to as canon or canonical, that means that it is a piece of information that can be found within the source material itself. Only the source material itself. This means that all supplemental material, no matter how fun it can be, is not actually canon. The Star Trek novels contradict the Original Series all the time. The Doctor Who comics are an affront to the laws of cohesive narratives (affectionate.) The MCU does not override the Marvel comics, because they are basically corporate sponsored fanfiction. There were no elves in Helms Deep.

Now, The Legend of Zelda is a video game franchise, and the canon in question is the games themselves. This means that anything that is not a part of a Zelda game is not admissible as canon. The mangas are not canon (this hurts me more than you could ever know, Vidow my beloved). The tv show is not canon (thank Hylia). The things that Nintendo says in press releases are not canon, and nor are the fan encyclopedias.

So now that that is out of the way, the question then becomes, “Is there a coherent timeline within the games themselves, and if so, what is it?” I am very happy to say that the answer to the former part of that inquiry is yes, and the latter is… going to take a little longer to explain.

If I were to try to just explain the timeline, I would sound like a person wearing a tin hat and clawing at the wallpaper. So instead, we are going to show our work. The lenses through which the chronology of the LOZ franchise can be exhumed are the following: game release order, consoles on which they were released, Overworld maps, game manuals (a part of the game in the era before digital downloads), in-game plot and narrative trends, and the existence of various races/items/mechanics.

Game Release Order and Consoles:

Now Link has been playable by many controllers on many at home entertainment systems, and the fun thing is that there is a consistent level of continuity as to which character is the Link “from” each respective console. We’re going to do this and game release order at the same time in order to save myself some time. I think that’s fair.

The Legend of Zelda (1986, NES) Zelda II: The Adventure of Link (1987, NES) The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past (1991, SNES) The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening (1993, GB) The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening DX (1998, GBC) The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (1998, N64) The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask (2000, N64) The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Ages (2001, GBC) The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Seasons (2001, GBC) The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past & Four Swords (2002, GBA) The Legend of Zelda: Collector's Edition (2003, GCN) The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time Master Quest (2003, GCN) The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker (2003, GCN) The Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap (2004, GBA) The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventures (2004, GCN) The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (2006, GCN/Wii) The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass (2007, NDS) The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks (2009, NDS) The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D (2011, 3DS) The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword (2011, Wii) The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker HD (2013, Wii U) The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds (2013, 3DS) The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask 3D (2015, 3DS) The Legend of Zelda: Tri Force Heroes (2015, 3DS) The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess HD (2016, Wii U) The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild (2017, Wii U/Switch) The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening (remake) (2019, Switch) The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword HD (2021, Switch) The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom (2023, Switch)

As of this moment (prior to Echoes of Wisdom’s 2024 planned release) we have 29 mainline games in the series. Now, we are going to go ahead and remove all the ones that are remakes, remasters, or just ports to other consoles, because those don’t affect the narrative.

We now have 19 true games, that are all new to the series and plot original points on the Timeline. 2 on the NES, 1 on the SNES, 4 on the GB(various iterations), 2 on the N64, 2 on the GC, 2 on the Wii, 4 on the DS, 1 on the WiiU (but like really 2 though come on let me have Hyrule Warriors Link, I can be trusted with him), 2 on the Switch. Also from now on I am using acronyms for these titles, I am sick of typing them all out.

Were we to make the assumption that each console has its own original Link that does not appear on any other consoles, and we went by the newer console on the release date for each Link, then we would not have any Link on the WiiU and a total of 6 Links. Which isn’t bad, and we could maybe stop here, but well, some games go out of their way to make sure you know you are in a different Hyrule than the one in the prior game, and the most blatant way they do this is in the maps.

Game Maps and their Similarities and Differences

LOZ Overworld maps:

1. LOZ

2. AoL

3. ALTTP

4. LA - not hyrule and I only get 10 pictures. Picture Koholint in your mind

5. OOT

6. MM - picture Termina in your mind

7. OOS - picture Holodrum in your mind

8. OOA - picture Labrynna in your mind

9. WW - just think about the ocean. Again, only ten pictures.

10. MC

11. FS/FSA - Again, picture limit. I have better evidence than maps for this Link anyway.

12. TP

13. PH - think of the ocean. Picture the waves

14. ST - 10 images per post limit is out here trying to kill me. Imagine New Hyrule. Manifest trains in your mind.

15. SS

16. ALBW

17. TFH - Hytopia. It's ridiculous (affectionate)

18. BOTW and 19. TOTK

Okay, now if I were to base my understanding on which games are connected solely on the maps, I would first ditch all the non-Hyrule maps into their own category.

So we have, in not-Hyrule: OOS, OOA, LA, WW, TFH, PH, ST, MM

In Hyrule: LOZ, AOL, ALTTP, OOT, TP, SS, ALBW, BOTW, TOTK, FS

Now, locationally, we have: Hyrule itself, Holodrum, Labrynna, Hytopia, Koholint, Termina, The Great Sea, and New Hyrule. If we assume that it is the same Link when maps repeat, and that all Hyrules are the same (they aren’t but we’ll get to that later) then that gives us a maximum of seven boys here. If more than one map belongs to the same Link, then we have even less than that.

Here is where narrative is going to come into play for the very first time. Sometimes the games do us a favor and directly tell us that they are a sequel or prequel to something. We don’t even have to think about it, they are just inarguably direct sequels

Phantom Hourglass follows Windwaker directly, as does TOTK for BOTW, so does AOL to LOZ, and MM to OOT. OOS and OOA are twin games that should have been triplets please I am begging so their maps being different from each other is irrelevant.

Now we have these potential Links:

At Least one guy in Hyrule, and also Termina

One Link on the Great Sea

One Link in Hytopia

One Link in both Holodrum and Labrynna

One Link in New Hyrule

One Link on Koholint

Great, if all the Hyrule’s were the same then we would have six Link’s and then we could line them up. But they don’t have all the same Hyrules, so let’s break that down.

The games that share a map beyond a shadow of a doubt are LOZ and AOL, ALTTP and ALBW, and BOTW and TOTK. These maps are all then individually unique from the rest of the Hyrules, which are also all unique from each other. Once we compare and contrast the maps of Hyrules, combined with the last round of map logic, this is the list we get:

LOZ/AOL

ALTTP/ALBW

BOTW/TOTK

OOT/MM

WW/PH

OOS/OOA

TFH

FS/FSA

We are now back up to twelve distinct characters that we collectively refer to as Link. There cannot be any more than this (okay yes one more if we start calculating FS and FSA against each other, but shush don’t worry about that yet.)

However, we can reduce the number. Let us make the assumption that the pattern already showing is a soft rule, and that unless some other fact (such as the narrative of the games themselves) contradicts it, the Links on the same console are the same Link. Now add that function to the map proof and we can in fact glue some Links together. From here on out, know that when I am talking about FS I am not talking about the Palace of the Four Sword in ALTTP, but the historical Link that had to exist for that to occur.

LOZ/AOL

ALTTP/ALBW

LA/OOA/OOS/FS/FSA/MC

OOT/MM

WW/PH

BOTW/TOTK

Game Plots Themselves

Okay, so now that that is sorted, we shall finally look at the in-game timeline and narratives and see if any of that breaks, and more importantly, if we can start putting them in order.

First up, we have LOZ, the first in the series, and then it’s sequels that occur six years later in Link’s life according to the game manual. Nice. Simple. Next game released was ALTTP, which establishes in the game manual that several things are historical fact, such as the presence of Ganon, the Triforce, the opening of the Sacred Realm, and the Imprisoning war. Now we can make an assumption that all games that do not have these elements then come prior to ALTTP, as FS must also in order for the Palace of the Four Sword to exist.

The order is now [ST,SS,MC/FS], OOT/MM, [ALTTP/ALBW,LOZ/AOL,WW/PH,TP,BOTW/TOK,LA/OOS/OOA/FSA] where in the order within the brackets is not know. OOT goes in the middle because this is canonical where Ganon comes from, and the moment where the Sacred Realm is opened. Here you can see I further divided line three from our most recent list, breaking it into the “no Ganon” and the “yes or maybe Ganon” camps.

We can do better than that!

Spirits Tracks features an older Niko, a character from WW, so that comes after those games. TP is narratively a direct sequel to OOT, to the point that the Hero of Time is a ghost character. Skyward Sword and Ocarina of Time are both mentioned in a cutscene in BOTW, and heavily evident as history on the map (see: the map of the Great Plateau and the Forgotten Temple) so that comes after those. FSA happens after TP as well, as is proven by the Dark Mirror. In the plot of the game, SS is the origins of Zelda and Link as concepts, so it has to go first. The titular Four Sword of the game by the same name is forged in Minish Cap, so that has to come after that. I think that’s enough statements of fact for now, let’s make another list.

SS, MC, FS, OOT, MM, [ALTTP/ALBW, LOZ/AOL, WW/PH-ST], TP, [BOTW/TOTK, LA/OOS/OOA/FSA]

Now let’s deal with the king of red elephants in the room: the Timeline Split.

We have some games that talk about the Imprisoning War, some that have a Great Flood instead, and two dueling sequels to Ocarina of Time, where both characters are addressed as the “Hero of Time reborn.” That would break everything, except for the canonical use of time travel in the middle of the game that the issue is emanating from. Here we finally get to the Child and Adult Timelines. The plot of the games in question tell us which is which, and also situates MM as a sequel in only one timeline so we have:

Adult Timeline: SS, MC, FS, OOT, WW/PH, ST

Child Timeline: SS, MC, FS, OOT, MM, TP, FSA(LA/OOS/OOA?)

Now. Problem. What about the Imprisoning War? That isn’t mentioned in any of those games, but it is a part of the history of Ganon… oh fuck there are three Timelines.

Sad Boy Era (aka Has the Imprisoning War): SS, MC, FS, OOT, [ALTTP/ALBW, LOZ/AOL, BOTW/TOTK, (LA/OOS/OOA?)]

My only remaining puzzles are which timeline three games are on, and one last unordered bracket. Sweet. This is starting to look doable!

Time to examine the legends themselves. The fact that the Windfish and the Ocean King are basically the same situation reinforces the fact that LA and PH are on separate timelines. Fantastic. The Oracle games are definitely based in a separate timeline than TP, because the Ganon resurrection plot of Twinrova directly contradicts the Dark Mirror story of both TP and FSA. I still have no evidence that LA is a separate character than the Oracle games, so I will keep them together on this third Timeline. But here’s the thing. The magic little bullet of information.

Twinrova is trying to bring Ganon back. He was sealed away and they are trying to bring him back to Hyrule. So if he won in OOT, but was defeated by the Oracle games, that means there has to be at least one game between those two.

But which one?

The answer is right there, it’s in the word “seal.” At the end of LOZ, Link burns Ganon to ashes, and AOL is spent trying to prevent those ashes from being used for the most messed up arts and crafts project ever. However, at the end of ALTTP, Ganon is not scorched to nothing, so that has to be it.

Let’s use the common fan-term for the third timeline and re-list out our logic proof:

Adult: SS, MC, FS, OOT, WW, PH, ST Child: SS, MC, FS, OOT, MM, TP, FSA Downfall: SS, MC, FS, OOT, ALTTP/ALBW, [LA/OOS/OOA, LOZ/AOL, BOTW/TOTK]

We just have one more bracket to work out. Now, back to in game plot stuff. All of BOTW and TOTK make a point that it is last. It is so very last in the timeline. I am pointing at the clothes and items and the map and the whole ten thousand years thing. We can go ahead and take that out of the bracket. And as previously discussed, we know that LOZ had to happen after The Oracle games, I just could not isolate it until we pinned BOTW. We also know that ALTTP is the Link in question’s first quest (yay for child soldiers)! So we can order it and ALBW.

Downfall: SS, MC, FS, OOT, ALTTP, ALBW[LA/OOS/OOA], LOZ, AOL, BOTW, TOTK

We’re almost there. Back into the narrative we go! LA is isolated in plot, it is not going to help us. But it’s still attached to its other friends there, and nothing has made me separate them yet. Okay, back to the Oracle games. They are about the Oracles Din and Nayru and Farore if Nintendo didn’t hate me needing to be brought back to Hyrule because of threats to their safety caused by the theoretical return of Ganon.

Why are these Divine beings afraid of Ganon? Because of the events of the Imprisoning War, where the Sacred Realm was corrupted. Who uncorrupted it? The pink haired bunny boy from ALTTP. And they can now go back to Hyrule, aka back into the Sacred Realm, because it is no longer the Dark World. Oh, okay, this is a direct sequel, and therefore it is the same Link. Now, is this before or after ALBW?

We are going to go with before. Why? Well Link is very much a you teen if not an actual child in the Oracle games, while in ALBW, his alternate universe self (Hi Ravio I love you) is involved in Lorule’s government and a merchant. That is a young man. Okay then. Mystery that didn’t really need solving solved. New order:

SS, MC, OOT, ALTTP, LA/OOS/OOA, ALBW, LOZ, AOL, BOTW, TOTK

Can I reasonably use cold hard proof to sort out whether LA comes before or after the Oracle Games? No, but I have circumstantial evidence.

The Oracle Games begin with magical baby-Link-napping, while Link is sailing out to sea in the beginning of LA. Once again, we are using the logic of “the passage of time makes characters age and able to try new things.” On the other hand, there is no way at all to figure out which Oracle game goes first. Maybe the third Oracle game would have told us that. I’m not bitter.

At last. We have our final timeline.*

Adult: SS, MC, FS, OOT, WW, PH, ST Child: SS, MC, FS, OOT, MM, TP, FSA Downfall: SS, MC, FS, OOT, ALTTP, OOS/OOA, LA, ALBW, LOZ, AOL, BOTW, TOTK

And when you put the earlier reasoned ideas of which games are the same Link onto this you get:

Skyward Sword Link

Minish Cap and Four Swords Link

Ocarina of Time and Majora’s Mask Link (x3)

Windwaker and Phantom Hourglass Link

Spirit Tracks Link

Twilight Princess Link

Four Swords Adventures Link

A Link to the Past, Oracles, Link’s Awakening, and A Link Between Worlds Link

Legend of Zelda and Adventure of Link Link

Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom Link.

(*TFH is not placed anywhere on this timeline or game distribution because it has no place that it must logically be in, but narratively could be Oracles Link or a New Link entirely. Who knows?)

Now we take the logic proof we just made, and we lay it down onto a fun little flowchart.

…Fuck now I have to make a chart

Nothing other than material that is inside of the box (the games and manuals) for the game itself was consulted for this.

This is the canon Legend of Zelda timeline, according to the Legend of Zelda.

New Zelda Game!

Okay cool, cool cool cool cool, I am calm, I am so fucking calm. Looks like Nintendo is staying true to their word that Wild is not getting another game, so now the questions are, what Link is this, where are we in the Timeline, and what information about the game itself can we pick out of these crumbs?

Whose Zelda is it anyway?

So two options:

New boy.

Legend. It’s fucking Legend again sucks to suck bro

Case for new Link and Zelda:

Less messy for the Lore

That’s it, that is the only argument

Case for Leggy boy and Fable:

LA animation style! While it can be fun to bring back older styles of animation for nostalgia/artistic reasons, that seems like a poor choice for *LOZ* games, which are always on the edge of what a game can do. Moving “backwards,” so to speak, in any aspect, would be a disservice to the franchise. However, doing it to maintain consistency for a particular character, and to use the animation style to make sure the audience knows this is the same character from LA is a very simple but effective tactic.

The map! So that shot was so BOTW and so fun, but the view we got wasn’t just recognizable as “Hyrule,” is was, down to the relative heights on the mountain cliffs against each other, the map from ALTTP/ALBW. Nintendo has never repeated a map without it being the same Link. So! Checkmate motherfuckers.

The character designs. That… that was just Legend and Fable, come on. Look at the dress. Every Zelda has a slightly different costume design, and that was hers. Look at Link. Baby boy!

I want this. Let me have it.

Timeline positioning

Okay so if we assume that this is in fact Legend, the next question becomes, “When is it?” Leggy boy currently has 5 games that are canonically his. (Triforce Heroes could be a random other Link, so while we like to say 6 we can’t *prove it.*) So. Let’s break it down.

ALTTP: canonically his first game, can’t be before this one.

Oracles: canonically happen after ALTTP, and he is very much still a child in here.

LA: the game this one is artistically modeled after. Narratively this fits nicely right after Oracles, and in the canon timeline, fits between Oracles and ALBW, so I think a whole new game being crowbarred prior to this one would be… not great for the narrative.

ALBW: This is trickier. No canon time between LA and ALBW is given, it could be a week, it could be years. It is entirely possible that Echoes of Wisdom occurs prior to ALBW, which would make it a direct sequel to LA, which makes the art style make even more sense. It could also be after?

…hang on a fucking minute, lets get the fucking map.

Left, ALTTP. Right, ALBW

Basically the same map! Duh, it’s the same Hyrule. But. BUT. Bottom right, in the lake. Do you see that?!

ALTTP: no log bridge. ALBW: Log bridge. Now, let’s look at the pretty picture from the EOW trailer.

NO FUCKING LOG BRIDGE!

This is before ALBW. Therefore, the game order for The Hero of Legend is

ALTTP, OOS, OOA, LA, EOW, ALBW, TH(maybe)

*cue manic laughter*

Lore Implications

Ganon.

There being a Ganon at all actually has me pointing my finger at the Oracle games and screaming. The TL;DR in those is that there was a plot to resurrect Ganon, each game Twinrova gets closer, but Link stops them. Now, there were also supposed to be three of those games, which means that it is entirely possible that the third unseen Oracle plot—please Nintendo let Link and Farore hang out, I am on my knees barking like a dog—could have resulted in his resurrection. This is the only explanation I have that doesn’t break the Lore or involve Time Shenanigans.

Also, Link does KO the bitch in that opening scene in the trailer. His presence is either just that—a set-up plot point—or him and Link are currently duking it out in the hole. Fun!

Link and Zelda

Now this game is going to put their relationship in the front in the “I have to save them because I love them” way that we usually see from Link’s POV.

Getting it from Zelda’s POV is going to be very interesting. We might be getting a look into her head, into her feelings and thoughts about the whole ordeal of the Legend itself. I hope so. But also, this isn’t just Link and Zelda, this is *Fable and Legend* specifically. The two that were meant to be be siblings but the dialogue that established them as such was cut from the final version of ALTTP. So. This game has the possibility to do three things

Canonize the Prince Legend thing, like they were going to do in the nineties.

Not address the topic at all, leave it nebulous.

Zelink.

None of these are bad choices, but option two is definitely the safest. Both options one and three will cause an uproar from part of the fan base. I can already see the ship wars. Please don’t do this people. Please.

The Holes 🕳️

What are they? Where did they come from? Ganon’s Trident Where do they go? No actually, where do they go? The Dark World (doesn’t make sense in the Lore)? Lorule (that would be a choice)? The Twilight Realm (I am convinced that Lorule and the Twilight Realm are the same place actually and you cannot change my mind)? Some new never seen before parallel dimension? A non-place, like a gap between realities (sexiest option)? I have no idea!

Fun!

That fucking “Fairy”

Tri? Don’t trust it. Will not trust it. Never trust that a companion in a LOZ game is what they first appear to be. Who does Nintendo take me for? A fucking amateur?!

Anyway, I am about 40% convinced that’s Link. I have evidence, but it is circumstantial.

I AM HANDLING THIS NORMALLY.

#the legend of zelda #loz #meta analysis #loz meta

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beevean · 2 years ago

Note

Sadly the reason I don't like The Geek Critique too much is that even when very aware of old 90s and 2000s fandom views, his own bias rooted in similar nostalgia still exudes in his opinions.

"Hey, look at all these comments in 1994 that note CD being convoluted, with 3K being a far better game"

Proceeds to act like it's the second best Classic game, despite having far worse issues than Adv 2's level design, and time travel being garbage

Same with the bias to and against Jam and 06 respectively

-Jam he's erroneously wrong on why it was made. It wasn't a love letter to unionize American and Japan canon, it was bluntly stated by Naka to be cuz Japan literally didn't know what Sonic was given absence on the Saturn, and Sonic in general not having good footing at all on Saturn. The other issue is the PC ports of CD and 3K already did that, by translating manual lore unlike Genesis release, so he accidentally discredited them, AND accidentally discredited Adventure in further unifying canon. It was just gushing praise for what is literally a game collection that barely swayed western views, instead reinforcing the shock when Sonic got green eyes because no one paid attention to his character design evolving after 1993

-06 similarly, negative biases against it fully, almost no positive mentioned. It was a 40 min rant on how Sonic's reputation died, when ironically as his notes on the fandom showed, the elitist mindset was already toxifying Sonic's rep before

He also completely missed on why fans and casuals jumped ship; the fanbase was 300% way too into a console rivalry that stopped being promoted after 1995. They also had the incorrect interpretation of Sonic being a sole lonewolf "bad dude". Noticeably Sonic 2 sold way less than 1 (7.55 vs 22.22 mil units) due to this and console packs, despite being a better game. The addition of Tails dissented them from the ad slam campaign for the public, and for those that stayed, then got lumped into Satam nostalgia as 3Ks release was split and delayed, and CD was on hard to obtain hardware. With 32x being a failure, and Saturn era not having much, these fans soon became elitist and rabid to Nintendo's successes, hung on to Sonic 1 and 2 very heavily, then also became rabid to themselves when some Weebs wanted to act superior in having exclusive stuff

Jam's compilation didn't help. They just got a compilation of stuff they already played to death, bar 3K

When Adventure came out, it did several things

-The casual public and fans not caring for Sonic 1994-1997 at all now are suddenly alienated to design, despite changing since 1993

-Satam and Archie fans now forced to accept that 1991-1993 US canon no longer mattered

-Weebs now no longer had exclusive access to unique stuff since canon was unified, localization differences aside

And finally, fans NOW had to give a cent to the game's story and character personalities

And so we ended with even more turmoil, which skyrocketed when Sega discontinued being hardware

So seeing Sonic on this killed many of the 90s/early 2000 crowd, and seeing Advance take cues from Adventure 1/2 hurt their """purist""" garbage opinions. Sprite comics dominated the web, elitist forums like Retro and Sonic Cult, even modding became elitist retro havens with this mindset

Heroes they glossed over it being made to appease them and attract newcomers, as they already made up their mind to hating new none 2D

Shadow was made to appease the gunho crowd, and failed

TCG is so very naive on how his own nostalgia affects his views, even the thumbnails progressively got more clickbaity and biased.

The fanbase ultimately will never recover, especially when Sonictubers just villify nostalgia bias, or blatant misinfo if it sounds convenient/coddles said nostalgia. Sadly no one can call him out; he's too big

TLDR: I find him mid and waddling in nostalgia

Anyway, how's your day?

I'm still processing the elections, thanks for asking 👍

It's undeniable that TGC is biased, that much is true, and he has all the hallmarks of an Adventure fan - his most recent Rush video basically starts with him complaining about the state of the franchise in 2005 lol. I can't think of a Sonic reviewer, or hell any reviewer in general, that is 100% fair and impartial. I judge how they come across with their bias :P for example, J has straight up admitted that he was one of the most influencial Youtubers in smearing the Meta era and its stories, and I can't stand Garrulous and his perpetually cynical tone as if he's forced to talk about Sonic at gunpoint, while I appreciate TGC and Implant Games for explaining themselves well and at least trying to motivate their opinions. (although apparently IG made a mess with his SA2 video, shame)

Admittedly I haven't watched all of his reviews, I skipped Heroes because I like the game enough and I skipped '06 because what else can you say about that one? And I didn't even know that he made a video about Jam lmao. Your explanation is very informative, thank you :)

I agree with your last paragraph. I think Adventure fans forgot how it was back in the 2000s when the "adults" were Classic fans and the Adventure fans were the kiddies with cringe tastes that didn't understand what Sonic was all about. So now they grew up, and it's their turn to make fun of the kiddies who like the Meta Era and don't understand what Sonic was all about. I'm tired of this "back in my day" attitude because it feels so myopic.

#sonic the hedgehog #long post

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midzelink · 5 years ago

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Hi I am not really into LoZ, but was Marin brown in the original and Nintendo whitewashed her? I am sorry if I am late to the news, I don't really follow LoZ and never paid attention to the older games, but I saw your post and it made me curious. I did a quick google search but all the pics they showed me are Marin with pale skin... 😟

Thanks for the question, anon, and to answer it - whether or not Marin's was a case of explicit whitewashing is relatively hard to say, and being white myself, it's not exactly my place to say so. The original Link's Awakening - which came out in 1993 - was in black and white, after all, and the Game Boy Color version didn't follow until five years later, in 1998. But the graphical limitations of the era didn't stop official art for the game from being printed in instruction manuals and guidebooks, and if you take a look at some of those pieces, you can tell that Marin's skin was darker relative to Link's:

She's still fairly light-skinned, of course, but there's very clearly a difference in tones here, Tarin included. Compare the above images to the official renders from the Switch remake, where their skin tones are identical:

So, yeah. It's not anything NEARLY as explicitly awful as Tetra's transformation into Zelda in The Wind Waker or the horrifically pasty, officially licensed Marina plush that Sanrio put out just earlier this year, but it does make you stop and think about who made that initial decision somewhere along the line to draw Marin with a slight tan in the game's original artwork, and when and why someone further along the line decided to scrap it. I'd liken her situation to Princess Daisy's of Mario fame; though her first 3D model in Mario Tennis (2000) gave her a skin tone identical to Princess Peach's, that same game's official artwork depicted her a bit darker than that:

Compare the above to the modern Daisy we know and love:

To this day, Daisy is a character that is often drawn with darker skin than her "canonical" design by fans, and it's an interpretation I absolutely adore - but I also won't fault anyone for drawing her with pale skin, because in the end, that IS the Daisy that most everyone is used to, and THAT fault lies with Nintendo and Nintendo alone. When I made my original post that spurred this topic, it wasn't in any way meant to be taken at face value; naturally, a lot of people are going to draw Marin as pale as pale gets because one look at her more recent depictions will tell you that that's what Marin IS, and I doubt much (if any) of it is ill-intended or malicious. At best, I was hoping to get even one content creator to consider making her brown in their next piece, because that's my favorite interpretation of her - and that's really all there is to it.

Of course, I don't owe any explanation to the complete clowns in the notes of my original post, because nothing I could say to them would make them any less racist (I attract a good crowd here, so I didn't give that post a second thought when I wrote it, but it seems that one such clown happened to be going through the Link's Awakening tag at the time of posting). At any rate, it was nice to get my thoughts out in a way that didn't encourage or promote any of their nonsense. And content creators - if you're reading this - consider making Marin brown, would ya? It would sure mean a lot.

#loz #link's awakening #marin #not tp #anonymous #super mario #my asks #asks #myposts*

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longcrierfunhouse · 8 years ago

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Sonic Forces and Sonic in Non Games

Sonic Forces is a game changer for the Sonic franchise as a whole and Sega hasn’t let on about how much sway it will have on the franchise from now on.

That’s a big opening sentence right? Sonic is a huge and extremely diverse franchise that as a game series has also been an extremely viable and popular cartoon, comic, toy, and music sensation that long extends past the reach of its home in Sega of Japan.

Each region had a story of Sonic with the Western Story taking more place in their comics and cartoons while the Japanese story is more manual relegated when the Sega Megadrive and Genesis had finally gotten the mascot. The Japanese manuals had extensive lore that you can read on each page of Sonic Retro here, here, here, here, and here. This is the lore that from 1998 onwards shaped the franchise. It has islands that magically move on their own (or via tectonic plates), legends about gods with magical gem stones, and little planets that time travel.

It’s a legacy series that has been a hallmark in games that Games Historians still don’t know how to fully process in regards to its rivalry in Nintendo’s Mario. Mario had tried cartoons and comics and even became the very first game to be adapted to film whose quality is very debatable among people for where it lacks faithfulness to Mario and where it was sensible to deviate from the 8-bit classic on the NES to make its story. Miyamoto even argues that it might have been too faithful to the respected series but that’s another discussion. Nintendo had a very experimental phase in the 90s when Sega became a serious competitor to the Games Industry. And one of those things was a pop culture presence that involved all of media.

Sonic encompasses any media the blue hedgehog can get its hands into. Its even in unofficial mix tape CDs and continues on to be sampled in works by big musicians and the iconic ring jingle is even the sound used in digital cash registers. Sonic is ingrained into pop culture psyche. It is a true pop culture success Sega never anticipated. It’s a sensation that has worked as a sales machine everywhere except in Japan. That’s not that they didn’t try to make it big in Japan even having a short running manga series that came to be known in Sonic Fan Circles aside from the manga adaptations to advertise the games themselves.

It was a very interesting little series that almost comes across like Looney Tunes with superheroes and a bad guy.

It introduced the East to Sonic’s own more unique adventures where Dr. Eggman would hatch a plan and spring it on the citizens of Hedgehog Town and Sonic would save the day. The new thing though is that Sonic has a Superman and Peter Parker secret alias that transformed into Sonic when the moment needed him to. It’s like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde but not as mentally unstable. It even introduces characters that are now series staples in the cast.

Designs changed and they were adapted to the series since. Amy Rose is a fan favourite Canon Immigrant and Charmy Bee is part of the Chaotix who shows up from time to time.

Then there were the Western takes on Sonic the Hedgehog. Some shortlived, some only getting cancelled in the early 2000s in the case of UK comics company Fleetway and their series, Sonic the Comic.

Theirs is a very interesting story taking place after the Origin of Sonic the Hedgehog promotional story that was reprinted in Disney Adventures’ Second Issue. This same book would take on plenty of game properties and Sonic was an early story for them.

This story involved Sonic having been friends with a Good Dr. Robotnik who was then known as Ovi Kintobor similar to Alucard in Dracula myths. In this story Sonic had engaged in a speed experiment gone wrong that turned him blue due to the effect of going past the speed of sound and turned the jovial scientist into the fearsome robot slave making Robotnik. It was an interesting story that the Western branches of Sega had made canon to their regions’ version of Sonic until 1998′s Sonic Adventure and Sega of Japan’s mythology came to be the full original canon. These comics have an ardent fanbase that celebrates the comic for being closer to the games than the Archie Comics counterpart and even has a dedicated online webcomic continuation of the story that’s running into the 200s now that features fan favourite online artists like @adamisart and @thekkmart. It’s a very fun read and these books are eclectic and fun even if unique in their interpretations of the franchise. One of these ideas are The Cyberniks.

Shortfuse the Cybernik

Vermin the Cybernik

These two are a form of Badnik that are Badniks but with animals the size of Sonic instead of the typical little “real” animals you’ll usually find popping out of Badniks. They’re made to be much stronger than your typical Badniks and have traits that, similar to Metal Sonic, are like a character but enhanced with technology. This is very similar to the very mysterious character of Infinite, a cybernetic character who we know nothing besides a name and a motivation to bring Sonic down.

The Archie Comics are also something that seems to have had a huge imprint on this game via cultural osmosis or coincidence. The Archie Comics had a deal for a limited series of Sonic in 1993 which coincided with the showing of Sonic the Hedgehog on Saturday Mornings (known to fans as Sonic SatAM). These comics featured a team of Freedom Fighters against the wannabe tyrannical Dr. Robotnik who in SatAM had conquered their homeland of Mobotropolis and roboticized to become his lair in Robotropolis. This event also happened in the comics but it focused more on the humour of the Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog until SatAM’s cancellation after the episode The Doomsday Project in December 3, 1994. The Archie comic was a fairly popular series that has run alongside the franchise from 1993 to 2017, finalizing it at 24 years strong. One more year and it would have hit a 25 year long milestone in publication. That is no small feat and is a testament to the popularity and strong nature of Archie’s Sonic to become a major part of the franchise that outlived the original cartoon it was based on.

Boy those models sure look nice and professional.

The cancellation of Archie happened July 19, 2017. And on the day right after we got another trailer for Sonic Forces this time for Infinite Themselves.

And this logo is the one that is shown to be the logo for the character.

What is particularly interesting now is that the characters from Sonic the Comic inhabited the world of Mobius, a long running miscommunication between Sega of Japan and America. This caused the planet of Mobius to be the name that most people in pop culture would associate and accept as Sonic’s Home World. Here is some trivia:

“The name Mobius may be a reference to a shape known as the Möbius strip, a shape with no clear start or end that appears to have multiple sides, when in fact there is only one. This could be intended as a reference to the cyclical nature of species dominance on this alternate Earth / Mobius.”

The logo that we had seen before is a Moebius Loop, made popular by the artist, M.C. Escher.

Look at those ants go.

Something that is fairly popular and well noted in Sonic 2′s level design is the use of these strips in Emerald Hill Zone. We’ve seen these come up in the franchise several times over since.

So why is this important? There’s still a branding issue. A single logo is used for consistency so you’re not confused about what it represents. This is a common practice in marketing. This is why the Sonic the Hedgehog logo stays roughly the same to its motifs even in new logos and designs.

So what does this logo mean?

Why did Sega make it a huge thing in the E3 Trailer? Archie Sonic doesn’t have that as a logo and neither does Sonic the Comic. This is a brand new logo. However, this logo can be simplified a lot like how Infinite’s turned out to be. It even looks like it could belong on a flag of a fictional nation. That’s interesting. The last time we saw a fictional nation in Sonic, we got Sonic Unleashed.

And this was the logo of Eggmanland, the Doctor’s Nation that he built from the scraps of the Earth after it was destroyed. All of the nations alongside it were based on real world nations.

Shamar’s Flag, Sonic Unleashed (2008)

South Africa’s Flag

If this is a new nation in the Sonic Universe then we could potentially be looking at the incorporation of Mobius into the Sonic Games’ Lore. This would be groundbreaking integration of the West’s ideas of Sonic coming into the games after years of fan demands and the cancellation of the Archie book which was coming right off of the Sonic Unleashed adaptation before it ended. There’s also the note that there is a world map in Sonic Forces which is particularly peculiarly similar to Sonic Unleashed.

Sonic Unleashed (2008)

Sonic Forces (2017)

This may be all a coincidence, but there’s been a big marketing push that Sega has been more than happy to oblige with Sonic Forces that this game will be huge and that we haven’t begun to scratch the surface of it all.

Let’s look at Infinite and the Avatar again. These characters are vital to the puzzle.

Sonic Forces: Custom Hero Trailer, May 16, 2017

This kid has been an important part of the game the entire time. This character is tied to Infinite being in the game and this has been stressed over and over by Sega themselves. They’re You. They’re the Fans. They’re the love and dedication of 26 years of this franchise staying afloat. That’s way past cool. So if they’re You then who is Infinite?

They’re the hands of an author rewriting the work to fit their vision.

This is the Avatar of an Overly Controlling Mastermind of the Space Time Continuum. Which remember. Sonic is not unfamiliar with the concepts of space and time and how they affect the world. This was a big point in Sonic Generations, a game that used that as a plot to set up an anniversary game of revisiting old levels.

What’s most curious is the roster of villains that accompany Infinite and how they interact with the game as a whole, particularly when it’s made clear that Infinite is wrong.

They’re the living embodiment of a glitch in the system. Even the video of Their Theme is glitched out.

They sure love to be a living image corruption that’s for sure.

Let’s go back to the concept of a Cybernik. It was established that Dr. Eggman made these to be Super Badniks much like how Metal Sonic is one to Sonic. What if Infinite is the Cybernik version of our Avatar, Buddy?

A diagram of a Cybernik

They’re not fully mechanical but they’re very cybernetic and appear to have very natural features suggesting that they’re not purely a robot. This idea would go on into the Archie Sonic Comics where Dr. Eggman has an army of willingly and unwillingly roboticized soldiers that have enhanced abilities.

That’s too much of a coincidence. What bears intrigue more is the similarities in design to Vermin the Cybernik.

Pointed ears, pointed snout, and Ultron like design similarities are all accounted for. The only thing wrong is the tail which is a fox’s moreso than a rat’s. But otherwise, Infinite’s motif is fairly similar to Vermin down to wanting Sonic and Buddy the Avatar dead. That’s interesting with what is canon to the Cyberniks.

“Two Cyberniks were depicted during the series. The prototype was a squirrel-shaped Badnik, but an error occurred during the installation of Shorty the Squirrel as its organic battery, allowing Shorty to resist Robotnik's brainwashing. Shorty took on the name Shortfuse and became an outlaw, striving to defeat Robotnik's forces. Shortfuse possessed blasters on his arms and the ability to fly.

The second Cybernik, a rat named Vermin, was created to destroy Shortfuse. Although he could not fly, he was super strong and had more powerful blasters which were emitted from his eyes. He also possessed the ability to inject a crippling computer virus by means of his prehensile tail.”

Is it possible that Infinite is a Composite Character of these two? It’s looking more and more likely it seems. Also of note is that Vermin is a virus based character to himself as well and that is the basis of a lot of image corruption. Fascinating.

Now let’s talk about that last image and Sonic’s artistic influences.

Japan loves Felix the Cat and Mickey Mouse. They absolutely adore those two and Sonic was designed to be an incredibly iconic character that would sell competitively to Mario.

He was designed with a cutesy punk vibe to gel with what kids liked at the time. Someone that parents could accept and kids could really get into. This was from the competition where Sega asked their employees to design a new mascot to replace then mascot Alex Kidd who just wasn’t working. The character that Infinite threatens is someone fairly basic in design and simple, but why is Infinite threatening them? They’re not as important as Sonic. Or are they? It bears minding that the competition had many designs come out of it, this one included.

This kid bears a strong resemblance to Oswald the Lucky Rabbit.

Oswald is a prototype to a major company’s mascot. After Oswald, we got Mickey Mouse after Disney left Universal with his good friend and collaborator Ub Iwerks and their team. This rabbit concept would go on to become Ristar with the stretching arms idea intact. But it’s interesting to say that a possible prototype of Sonic would be threatened by a force that wants Sonic deader than Mephiles did.

Is Sonic Forces a legacy game? Is this the most important Sonic game this side of Sonic Mania? Time will tell.

I know that I’m excited though. Sega has my attention.

#sonic forces #infinite #pop culture #analysis

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