#the joys of rewatching after an info has been revealed that changes everything

[airenyah]

oh.

OH.

[kob131]

Rewatching volume 8 I can safely say that they kinda ruined Ironwood's character. To me they made him a cartoony villain by shooting the counsel guy and teaming up with Watts at the start of the volume, as well as him willing to blow up mantle even though Salem was gone. I think they should have taken their time in the volume making Ironwood a villain, Judgemental critter explains how he could have been better in her review. Buuut that's just my opinion

Then I figure you don’t mind if I go into Judgmental Critter’s Ironwood part?

‘Ironwood is an interestingly complex character, both kind and understanding but also stern and harsh.’

... That’s...not unique. Like, at all. That’s like every Sink or Swim Mentor or Stern Father figure. Fuck, Hank Hill came to mind.

‘He was the one who broke the news to Yang, being earnest and disappointed that yang was disqualified. But also put his foot down so there’s no protest from the girls.’

... So? This isn’t the aspect of him that Volumes 7 and 8 are being focused on and this is BEFORE his paranoia and trust issues got validated so of course he’s in a naturally better state.

‘Here’s a man who convinced himself that he built an army that couldn’t be beat.’

Wait, did you just...skip the part where he relates to Yang and implies he has PTSD, indicating he’s not exactly mentally well? ... What the fuck?

And you’d better be considering this when you come to Volume 8, after his army has been beaten and just got stretched thin.

‘In Volume 4, he stands kindly by Weiss’ side, stands up for her against the Atlas elite and when the girls meet him again-’

... *graps Judgmental Critter by the collar as they pass by.* Don’t think I didn’t notice that.

Jacques: You've never trusted anyone other than yourself!

Ironwood: (shouting) And for good reason!

Weiss covers her mouth with her hand as she gasps at the sound of Ironwood slamming his fist onto the desk.

Ironwood: If Oz had just listened to me from the start...

Jacques: You need to get a grip.

Ironwood: That's exactly what I'm doing. Our people need protection. By this time next week, the Kingdom of Atlas will be officially closing its borders. No one in; no one out. Without the council's permission.

Jacques: You mean, without your permission?

Ironwood: And if that becomes the case, I would think you'd want to be on my good side.

Funny you don’t mention this in your summary of him, considering this is portrayed as a deeply personal reveal of the man.

I also remember that you ignored what he said in Volume 2.

Glynda: Trouble sleeping?

Ironwood: (Looking back, gripping his shoulder with the other hand.) Arm was acting up.

Glynda: Of course, so logically, you got out of bed, dressed yourself completely and decided to gaze menacingly out into the distance. (Approaches all the way to his side, then looks at him concerned.) What's wrong?

Ironwood: I've trusted him for years. We both have. I just... I can't help but feel like he's keeping us in the dark.

Glynda: Don't be ridiculous! You know very well that we are not the ones in the dark.

Ironwood: (Laughs humorously.) That makes it worse! I refuse to believe that a man that I've trusted for so long would act so... passively.

Glynda: (Puts a reassuring hand on her friend's shoulder.) You're a good person, James. You've always done what you think is best for the people, even against strong protest. It's admirable. But it's high time you stopped talking about trust and started showing it. (Drops her hand as they stare into the distance together.) Ozpin has experience that the rest of us lack. And I think that's something worth remembering.

These things that connect Ironwood’s actions in the past and his actions in the future...

And you don’t mention them despite being big character moments for him? Maybe this is a coinc- 

‘He knelt to spoke to Oscar, which showed his dad energy!’

... *steams starts to rise from my face*

Ironwood: Without him here to guide us, all I can do is use my best judgment.

Behind him, Oscar shifts uncomfortably. As if sensing something, Ironwood stops and looks back.

Ironwood: What is it?

Oscar: Actually, Oz isn't completely gone.

Qrow: Uh, Oscar here is… is the next Ozpin.

Ironwood: Oz?

Smiling, Ironwood quickly and eagerly approaches Oscar, who looks nervous.

Ironwood: I'm so glad you're here. I didn't think you--

Oscar puts his hands up and interrupts Ironwood, as the latter crouches to Oscar's level.

Oscar: Not quite. He's kind of, um, gone... at the moment.

Ironwood's smile fades, and he lowers his head.

That wasn’t him acting like a dad, that was Ironwood being desperate, given a fleeting glimpse of hope that the man he respected and looked to above all others is...there, standing in front of him, where he can finally have an equal again.

That was...so blatant and obvious I am finding it hard to believe you’re not doing this intentionally.

“He spoke to Oscar as if he was a trusted ally despite missing Ozpin’s words of guidance!”

Oscar. Has. Ozpin. In. Him.

Ozpin. The man that James, AGAIN, respects and follows.

No. Fucking. Shit.

“He gave Team RWBY the Huntsman title and upgrades!”

‘Huntsmen’ in Atlas meaning ‘soldiers’. And that is STILL not contradictory to what he does later.

‘He was well meaning and kind...until he found out they lied to him.”

Which was bad of them...but they were also in fault when they treated Ozpin harshly and James did WORSE so what does that tell you?

‘His PTSD comes flooding back!’

...

......

...........

You skipped how he refused to trust the council, his PEERS, with the info about Amity or even Robin, whose entire issues with him could have been solved if he TALKED to her, all because of his trust issues.

You have completely shoved his trust-related skeletons into the closest and play up his more pitiable PTSD issues. You’re fucking Mary Sueing him.

‘Was all of it Team RWBY’s fault? They didn’t give him the truth but neither did Ozpin-’

Was it Team RWBY’s fault that the Fall of Beacon or Atlas’ issues happened? No! In fact, James was more culpable in both scenarios (if he listen to Ozpin then the machines COULDN’T attack Vale citizens and if he told the truth and listened to Team RWBY before he had no choice then he could have stopped all that shit!) than them. And just as Ironwood’s issues don’t excuse Team RWBY’s fuck ups- Ozpin’s issues don’t excuse James’ fuck ups.

‘Who can he trust? How many levels of precautions does he need to take?’

You know, I’d buy this shit if not for how the depth of his trust issues isn’t actually shown, how his issues with trust went beyond this and came around to how he was isolating himself. This is still trying to play pity for the man instead of seeing him for who he is.

‘We left Ironwood last Volume as a complex man whose filled dwith grief, guilt and fear-’

And what have we seen as the end result of these emotions time and time again in RWBY?

They cause the person to devole.

Hazel is filled with grief and used that to help justify his shit actions.

Ozpin is filled with guilt and let it distance himself from others.

Yang was filled with fear and couldn’t move on.

And Salem...Salem is all fucking three and we KNOW how she turned out.

The way that ‘complex man’ is portrayed is the same way one says a character is complex as an excuse to ignore their darker issues. She goes onto portray Volume 8′s beginning with Ironwood as somehow not in line with his ‘complexness’ when this has been an issue with him since Volume 2.

And as a special fuck you to that:

Do you have any idea how tempting Ironwood’s position is? To be hurt again and again by others as you try to defer to them? To see yourself as right time and time again but still struggling to see other’s point of view as valid? To resist the temptation to discard what EVERYONE says, to not care about what others say and carve your own path regardless of what others think, feel or say?

I have. Countless times and it is SO HARD to not do what Ironwood did. 

‘In his first scene, Ironwood crossed the line!’

Not really. From Ironwood’s point of view, Slate was standing in his way with Salem at his doorstep and in a worse shape than ever and he can’t afford to waste any time with him. Killing him is rather logical and why would Ironwood care? It’s right in his eyes and the morality of other people has only been chains to him.

‘This isn’t playing on his paranoia!’

Gee, what emotion is it that causes Paranoia again? ... Fear? And Ironwood did this out of what again? ... Fear of Salem?

How is it RWBY can bee so unsubtle to cause blunt force trauma on it’s audience and yet they STILL routinely fail to see it.

‘He’s just a shitty cartoon villain!’

Ah huh. Again, I heard the same about the P5 villains. And they all had real world counterpart (Madrame in particular can be compared to ROOSTER TEETH).

‘Cartoon villain’ is just a buzzword at this point.

‘His personality before was so much more intriguing!’

The personality where you chopped off the stuff that shows this coming?

Yeah headcanons tend to appear that way.

‘Everything he was just thrown away to give us a laughable shell of a character!’

AKA ‘Two Ironwoods’ right?

Newsflash- characters and people can change for the worst. People can reach this point and beyond for the same reasons as James did. Good people can devolve and change. And yet he still had his humanity. He still tried to hold back in some manner before he felt concerned even more. He never took joy in what he did. And he still cared for his people. 

To call all that effort just a ‘shell’ because you BLATANTLY cannot accept this change in a character enrages me beyond what text can show!

‘He didn’t develop into a colder, heartless man-’

Yes. He. Did.

He ignored his people’s concerns and feelings just for a greater goal. He treated people as a whole instead of individuals. He kept secrets more and more. He constantly questioned if his compromises gave Salem the advantage.

He did devolve. You just blinded yourself.

‘I could see this happening!’

Right, if the show jumped through X+1 hoops right?

‘But instead-’

No fuck you, I’m done.

God what is with these twins and pissing me the fuck off?