#the duffers have been setting this storyline for a while. the buildup is all there

[livsmessydoodles]

thinking about this scene today

this scene alone convinces me that byler is endgame bc you cannot make will actively say that hes not gonna fall in love and then write a whole plotline abt him being in love with mike.... just for it to not be reciprocated???

will is the only party member who's completely unexperienced with romantic relationships, which of course has to do with the fact that he's gay in the 80's, but this is a TV show. all of this is fictional so they can take whatever route they want with these characters, and making will continue to stay alone and suffer through unrequited love would be awful storytelling, especially when people claim that will moving on from his feelings would bring character development and growth.

wills feelings for mike arent there just to "show his growth". weve seen this kid go through hell and back yet even with everything kicking him down he stays strong and kind. hes the most selfless character in the show and always puts others needs before his own. in s4, they put a lot of emphasis in these character traits of his, and they're always picturing his love for mike as something selfless and pure.

now if his feelings are not reciprocated, how does this teach will a lesson that leads to character growth?? he already doesn't expect anything. life has shown him time and time again that he always gets the short end of the stick, why would he think this is any different?? making him have feelings for his best friend just to get rejected would just be a nail in the coffin, reaffirming to him that no matter what hes not worthy of ever getting what he wishes. this isnt character growth at all.

but if his feelings ARE requited, that gives us a twist to the story we havent seen. we would get to see actual growth for will, him learning to give himself value and realize that he DOES deserve happiness!! instead of leading into the expected spiral of bad things keeping up the consistency with everything else that has happened to will so far, finally giving him one good thing leads to us seeing a shift in his whole nature, and wed see him dealing with things he hasnt dealt with before!!! GROWTH!!!

besides why would they make such an intricate complicated storyline.... just to lead to a rejection we all saw coming? the GA expects him to get rejected. his feelings not being reciprocated would not be any surprise. but twisting those expectations in a way to shock the GA AND give wills character the happiness he so deserves after being through so much..... now THAT would be world shattering and a satisfying ending to both the viewers and will himself!!

this scene establishes a clear subversion trope, making us aware of how will believes he's never finding love, just for the show to later on subvert expectations and reward will with the love he deserves and never thought hed get🫶

[emblazons]

Honesty Hour: I am literally never going to understand “Duffer doubt” or full abject disappointment in them as show runners…and it’s because their story makes sense.

Like. The fear for queer rep thing I understand completely, but so far, even with how little I resonated with S3 or S4-2 at first…they are solid writers with a sense of both direction and their audience, and I have no core issues with what they’ve presented.

Forewarning: pettiness, byler doubt (only mentions for context) & potential elitism idk (it’s also a little long lmao)

This idea The Duffers are gonna drop every single thing they’ve set up from the get go to accommodate the most surface level, least in-character storyline “because heteronormativity” is absolutely insane to me. The idea that, after setting up FOUR SEASONS of buildup, they’re going to kill off the primary protagonist of S1 and drop every single character lesson / core narrative to shove the YOUNGEST CHARACTERS in the gd show into a Disney fantasy marriage is crazy. I literally don’t even know how to imagine them doing that—not because it has never happened in a show, but because hearing them talk about ST makes it clear it’s BEEN mapped from the get, and they have explained clearly why certain things went the way they did in their own way.

Noah got cast on a monologue from a second season before they even have a confirmation of its existence, and character traits we are just pulling on now in characters like Mike (his insecurity especially) are written CLEAR AS DAY in the PITCH OF THE SHOW. Every single sign people on THIS LITERAL APP have pointed to for Y E A R S before S4 that Will was gay turned out to be right, and there has been, from the very first moment Netflix picked this thing up, a 25 page document where they broke down the UD lore.

Where on literal earth are people getting that they have no idea what they’re doing? Or that the lore people point to as foreshadowing is gonna get thrown out the window in the final season of the show? I get being nervous or anxious that your favorite character might not get all the time you want, or even being afraid that they won’t dig into all the things you want personally, but…the idea that two self-proclaimed film boys who were as into their inspirations as we are their show are going to undermine their own narrative integrity to pull a 180 on every theme they’ve set up from the get go and start killing off characters who are front and center in the “we tell the stories of the outcasts as a fuck you to the people who make media we think sucks” narrative? I’m gonna need you to be serious.

As a long time fan and fandom consumer of television, and someone who had to live through being invested in Game of Thrones, I am saying with my whole chest that the doubt is entirely emotional rather than based on anything objective that the duffers have said or done.

They’re not D&D from GoT, who were great ADAPTORS but who just started winging it because they didn’t have completed source material from GRRM. They aren’t the Voltron writers who had a good premise but mixed it all up because of firing their best writers and then caving to fandom nonsense. They aren’t the supernatural writers, or the Sherlock writers who set up an ongoing joke without the follow through people expected. They are the Duffers. And while their writing style is nothing like what I would do, they are telling a story that I can follow and respect until proven otherwise.

All this talk about “mistakes” and the like, even with queer rep. Like??? They released this show in 2016, and the last several years in its country of origin have been absolutely steeped in a horrifying level of bigotry both sociopolitically and in media. Stranger Things was released the same year Tr*mp was elected, and still managed to stand in abject criticism of every value on display in American conservatism ever since.

The push and pull of what was “allowed” in media because of the cultural insanity & bigotry that moved to center stage in the United States makes it clear why they didn’t bring their queer storyline to the fore at first glance and just put it in the subtext—to tell the story without being undermined by the “two seasons and cancelled” era of Netflix before it got huge (because, as we all know, Netflix and cancelling shows is a huge problem for many writers to this literal day) and to keep the bigots on main from noticing it until the train was too fast to stop. That’s what we’re dealing with now—a lot of people yelling loudly on places like Reddit, expecting to be consoled in in their homophobia and bigotry, because now Stranger Things is popular and far along enough to start saying the quiet part (that has ALWAYS been there) out loud.

Hiding the queer storyline in the subtext is something people have done in tv and film for DECADES anyway, and in literature for CENTURIES before that…but somehow the fact that it wasn’t made explicit until the fourth season invalidates it? Or makes it suddenly a reason to call into question the integrity of the entire show, or to let some random m*leven shipper undermine your sense of what makes a good story (which is also what matters most to the “we don’t listen to Reddit, and we regret focusing more on fan theories than our plot” duffers)? Once again: I’m gonna need you to be serious.

All I’m saying is that the way some people in this fandom are willing to believe and agonize over the takes of 18-19 year old actors or a random twitter account or YouTuber instead of listening to the creators of the show + looking at cultural context and how queer stories have been told for eons is crazy. It reeks of immaturity insecurity and media illiteracy, and gives two guys who have put a lot of time and (ADMITTEDLY IMPERFECT) effort into a show that remains one of the best told stories (despite network interference) in recent memory.

I get being nervous. I get being suspicious. But critical consumption & media literacy is more than just theorizing about what things mean or watching what inspired The Duffers. Stop looking at social media posts and randoms for information and start paying attention to the people who MAKE the things you’re so emotionally attached to in their context. I am literally begging at this point.

[mlchaelwheeler]

there's one thing stopping me from fully slipping back into delusional mode and believing that byler is gonna happen in S5 once again: all signs are pointing to vickie and robin potentially becoming a thing. I would love for both robin and will to have their own romantic relationships but like...ST is NOT a "gay" show and most shows that fall into that category do NOT have more than one canon gay couple so I'm really concerned about that. A "non gay" show is lucky if it has /A/ canon gay character, let alone having that character be in a relationship with a real, fleshed out other gay character. These past couple of days have told me not to have a lot of faith in the duffers anymore so I don't know what to think 😔

I really get your doubt, and I was really disappointed after finishing vol 2 also. While it was great to see Robin and Vickie hitting it off, I feel like Vickie is not going to play a major role in S5. While she may appear, I doubt she'd play a key role.

It's important to remember that Will's whole arc this season was about him struggling with his love for Mike. That has to go somewhere in S5. It would make absolutely no logical sense for his storyline to be left unfinished at the end of the series. Since Will's sexuality arc is directly tied to Mike, he's also going to play a key role in this for S5.

I know vol 2 really made it seem like byler no longer has a chance, but the more I think about Mike and El's arcs in vol 2, the less sense they make as endgame. Mike's monologue was completely full of lies--even the general audience caught onto that. Mi|even isn't the big romantic ship that it was built up to be! They fall short of other less focused-on romances, like jopper and jancy. There's a reason Mike and El didn't talk in the 2 days after Mike's confession. El didn't seem to need Mike once they got back to Hawkins, and Mike didn't really seem to care, despite it being his "biggest concern." Instead, Mike ended the season glued to Will's side. The shot at the very end seemed intentional, with byler standing togrther between 2 canon ships, and El more off on her own. It seems that El has learned that she doesn't actually need Mike's love. She seems a lot more focused on Max and Hopper when she's back in Hawkins--she and Mike don't even have any scenes together once they're back. They don't even kiss in vol 2! If they were setting up mi|even as this amazing endgame couple, they could've put in a lot more work to making them seem devoted to each other. The fact that it was only Will's urging that got Mike to tell El he loves her really makes mi|even seem overtly superficial. Even though mi|even ended this season still together, I would've been disappointed if I shipped them. They didn't get good buildup and seem very fake and childish compared to the other couples on the show.

[hawkinsschoolcounselor]

Hi! I noticed that you are a lot more optimistic about the chances of Byler now compared to your early posts. Why?

Good question. I may have discussed this before, but, honestly, who remembers?

I’m somewhat cynical by nature. When it comes to depictions of gay relationships, in particular, I’ve been burned too many times to count. I suppose in some way it’s a product of my generation. Growing up in the 80s and 90s meant that I rarely saw gay characters get happy endings, and almost never as the main characters.

I suppose things are a bit different these days, but the damage has been done when I look at popular culture. There’s a bit of confirmation bias at play, I realize, since I’ll easily spot the tired gay tropes, but also perhaps miss the subversions. I’ve recently mentioned how I’ve gotten a little bit into Cobra Kai. Well, there are a couple of male characters in that show that clearly have intense feelings (whether romantic or platonic) for each other, but both have been shown in flat heterosexual relationships (one of which really seemed forced) that seem to have no bearing on the plot or their characters. It’s that type of move that strikes me as “oh crap, we better do something so fans don’t think these guys are gay!” Now this could just be some confirmation bias on my part, but I’ve seen that sort of buildup before, only for it to be smacked down by the writers later.

I had a similar viewpoint on Byler fresh off of season 3. That cynical side of me that always suspects the worst of writers when it comes to possibly gay characters screamed at me that they were just messing with us. They were going to make Will gay, perhaps, but not let him be happy with Mike. Keep in mind that I started this blog, and made those earlier posts, very fresh off of season 3. My reactions were still tinged with the emotions that built up from years of letdowns for gay characters and storylines. I thought that maybe I was just seeing what I wanted to see or that the writers screwed up and were messily trying to undo it.

Time leads to reconsiderations, though. I had a lot of time to ingest the thoughts of others in the community. The analyses of scenes, the actual scripts, and the coy responses of the actors all had an impact in how I came to be more confident. It also helped that I was able to conceptualize Mike being gay using actual psychological theories. A lot of people can accept Will as gay since the show has all but stated it, but it’s Mike that’s the harder sell. At first I didn’t think the writers would be good enough, or aware enough of gay issues, to adequately portray a gay teen who hasn’t really had his realization yet. It’s usually more like Will’s situation. But I’ve come to have a greater appreciation for the Duffers and their team, again, due to the thoughts of others in the community.

There’s such an attention to detail on this show that it’s harder to believe they wouldn’t realize what they’re doing. The actual scripts showed us that Will was keeping his eyes on Mike while they all danced. They also told us that Mike was indeed confused and uncomfortable with El proclaiming her love for him and kissing him during their conversation at the end of Season 3. The ways the actors have responded to questions regarding Byler are clear attempts to avoid giving any real information. If we weren’t meant to wonder about Mike and Will’s relationship then they’d be able to just tell us.

Whether it goes where we want it to go or not, Mike and Will’s relationship is important to the show. It’s something fans were meant to pick up on. A while back (after season 2, I think), David Harbour did an interview where he mentioned that there’s a beautiful story being built up that fans may miss but will be clear to have been there all along once it’s over. I haven’t been able to find that interview (since you’ll just get the same one or two interviews from 500 sources when searching), but I swear I remember reading it. Now it could be something else entirely, but it could also be Mike and Will’s slowly building love. If I somehow imagined that interview, then my imagination is more boring than I thought.

I realize I’m potentially setting myself up for another disappointment (which would only result in me becoming more cynical), but I’m letting my guard down here. I feel that safe about it. I’m trusting the writers to not be major assholes, which they would be if they had Mike run off to the Byers in late March for a reason other than Will’s birthday. I’m trusting them to not be hacks, which they would have to be to consistently and accidentally give us reason to think Mike and Will are slowly realizing they love each other. I’m trusting these writers to be good at their jobs.