#the difference being that gunn thinks 'i need to be strong so i don't let people in power fuck over me or my own'

[genericaces]

more rambling about a s5 au: lindsey comes back for a redemption arc to act as legal counsel for angel's team. this ostensibly gives gunn a reason to opt out of the lawyer operation, but he does it anyway because he doesn't trust lindsey not to fuck them over.

lindsey acts as a moral foil to gunn, who comes to believe his necessary contribution to the team (since he's no longer their only lawyer) is being the defender of the group's principles while working at w&h. they frequently butt heads while working on a case, but eventually develop a begrudging respect of each other's respective strengths.

this hostile-to-friendly-rivalry arc is tested when it comes out that w&h was responsible for some demon problem that's been plaguing gunn's home community. gunn has, unbeknownst to himself, been somehow contributing to it while working at w&h; lindsey knowingly contributed to it when he was last working there as a lawyer. lindsey is forced to confront who he was, while gunn is forced to confront who he’s becoming.

since he was involved in the project, lindsey uses his insider knowledge to help come up with a plan to fix the problem. they execute it, something goes wrong, and lindsey risks his life to ensure the plan goes off successfully. he expects congratulations and a pat on the back from gunn, but gunn isn't interested in absolving lindsey's sins (or his own), and their warming relationship freezes over.

at some point, gunn lets himself get taken by the senior partners in an effort to deal with his guilt over various lapses in judgment/perceived moral failures. during their rescue mission to the holding dimension, lindsey stays behind in gunn's place so he can escape, assuring gunn that he's the lawyer the team needs right now. their mutual arcs culminate in lindsey rejecting the idea that redemption is done for recognition, and gunn rejecting the idea that guilt/self-punishment is inherently redemptive.

eventually after being busted out by illyria, lindsey is there to empathize with gunn about losing parts of yourself (body, mind, and/or soul) to w&h, relationships to power when you've grown up without it, and what it means to live with the consequences of your actions. both of them reflect on the nature of redemption/forgiveness/intent as they grapple with how to own up to an appropriate share of the blame.

[crying-over-gay-dramas]

this post will include major spoilers for My School President and Moonlight chicken, and sort of spoilers for Bad Buddy (I make a comparison). I also did not proofread this and wrote it all in one go without sleeping for a very long time so be warned.

Hello and welcome to me trying to articulate how and why I love every single detail of the My school President finale without sounding insane. This is going to be long so buckle in.

We'll start strong with the obvious which is their first kiss. We waited eleven episodes for them to kiss. They had all these super romantic moments, teasing us with the possibility of a kiss only for it to never happen UNTIL episode 12, the finale, when it happens without any notice, shocking myself and probably everyone else. It was unlike GMMTV's style who usually save the first kiss scene for some dramatic rooftop or beach. All that build up just for a brief peck for their first kiss? Perfection. It was so perfect for their dynamic and for the theme of the show itself. Think of all the things this show carries. First love, high school, dreams, friendship, romance. It's always been more on the innocent side, definitely the other side of the coin that is Never Let Me Go, another GMMTV BL that aired at the same time, with the same aged characters but with an entirely different vibe. That vibe, however, is what made this show really work. Because although it overall came off as innocent, it used that appearance to talk about some deeper things. But, I'll get to that later. Back to the kiss. GMMTV were truly genius for doing it the way they did. A lot of us were even convinced that they weren't going to kiss at all, especially after the scene in MoonLight Chicken from an episode aired only a day before the finale of My School President. The actors for Tin and Gunn, Gemini and Fourth, play characters in that show as well and in this episode they had their very first kiss together however due to camera angles we don't actually see it. That led us to beileve maybe these two actors just wouldn't be kissing in any of their shows, or at least not yet. So we went in to the finale either thinking they wouldn't kiss at all, or expecting a dramatic first kiss and we got neither. It was truly genius. And, as I said before it perfectly fit the theme of the show. It was exactly the style we've come to expect and love from TinGunn. Really fucking cute, for lack of better words. It also suited them because no matter how much those two managed to flirt, they still both were often awkward and flustered around each other so their first kiss being brief and in such a sudden moment fit them really well. It really was just so perfect. We didn't even need anything more in my opinion, but we got it anyways when later in the episode they do kiss more. Overall, it was really something that stood out to me and I loved how it ended up playing out. Physical touch has always been such a big part of TinnGun's relationship and development, and this was really just the pinnacle.

The Prom MV. The PROM MV. A small scene, hardly important to the story right? WRONG. The Prom MV not only provided us with some much appreciated jealous Gun which we love and missed from around ep 6 or 7 I beileve when he tares Tinn away from some girls who were flirting with him (before they had even admitted their feelings to each other I might add) but it also was a very sly method from GMMTV to insert some social commentary, something they've loved doing ever since Not Me. Tiw, apologizes to Tinn and Gun, telling them he asked for the MV to have a "BL" couple but they refused. They go on to show that Tinn's Co-star in the MV has a girlfriend, watching her on the side lines much like Gun is watching Tinn. This implies that the school board had unknowingly put into action an MV starring a gay man and a lesbian (assumed, not confirmed) playing a couple. All of this speaks volumes towards heteronormativity and gender roles and how society, specifically Thailand society in this case, but also everywhere, sees queer people. They'd rather place together a man and a woman who have zero attraction to each other than a man and a man or a woman and a woman who do. Although the message itself was serious, GMMTV still kept it light for the theme of the show, having Gun be jealous of Tinn and the girl in the MV, even pinching Tiw and telling him to yell cut, a detail we all loved. That's one thing that I really admired as I briefly mentioned earlier. The way they were able to insert more serious themes into the show without moving too far from the overall innocent and light hearted vibe.

That being said, GMMTV did let it get serious sometimes, in a way that was very well done. Besides the finale, they had plotlines that cast a more darker tone to the series, such as Gun struggling with feelings of self worth, and failure and his mother getting sick. I won't touch on that much, as I'm trying to focus on the finale here. For the finale, they had a very important scene where Tinn and Gun overhear two of their teachers saying bad things about them, regarding their relationship. This is what we can assume to be both of their times first experiencing strong homophobia directly. For it to come from a teacher as well, one they had respected was incredibly difficult. They don't sugarcoat this part of the episode. They don't give the teacher a redemption arc. Throughout the scene, the teacher holds their views and is shown as what some people are, simply just assholes. This was so important to the series, and important to the show overall, for the message and for the characters. Through this scene we get to see several different characters and their own reactions to Tinn and Gun, theirs being positive. Tinn's junior in his club as well as his mother both stand up foe them against the teacher. It's an emotional scene (that might have made me cry) and really shows you two sides to a very real and much bigger picture. Some people will only be filled with hate, and it can come from anyone. Even someone we trust. But among the hate there will always be those who will stay by your side, and some might surprise you. It's important to stand up for yourself and for whoever you love, to be proud of yourself and not to listen to anyone who tells you to be anything other than what you are. It was a beautiful and very important message and lesson for TinnGun and for us viewers.

Okay, enough being serious for a sec. Now we are going to discuss some of the smaller cuter details I appreciated. Gun officially meeting Tinn's parents as his boyfriend and the dynamic between them matching the already developed characters types of the parents. Tinn's dad being open and friendly, excitingly sharing his shared interest in music with Gun. Gun calling him dad and being nervous but comfortable around him. Tinn's mom telling Gun to call her Aunt instead of mom and her husband teasing her for it. Her staying somewhat distant from the situation yet letting things progress naturally and standing by when she usually would have interfered. It showed great character growth on her part, beyond of course what already occurred with her choosing her son over her career (We'll talk more about that later)

Let's talk about Prom. One thing I liked a lot is how Gun pulled Tinn on stage. It wasn't just romantic and very cute, but it was significant to Tinn and his development. If we look back to episode, 4 or 5 I think? Tinn tells Gun that his worst memory is when as a kid he was meant to sing on stage but forgot the lyrics. He'd been too afraid to sing since. He does sing, however in a previous episode with Gun on stage to support him when he was tired. That already showed how his love for Gun could overpower any previous fear he'd had and make himself stronger and more brave. This scene continues that theme and is important also for the fact that Tinn's mom was there to witness it. In a previous episode when she asks Gun about Tinn she found out that Tinn had sung with Gun and she is surprised. Showing again that Tinn didn't tell her things, or share things with her, much like he never shared with her his crush on Gun. But with this scene, she is there to see it herself. Tinn on stage, quietly singing along with his boyfriend. She's seeing the side to him she never was able to see, one she is finally able to see because she stopped being scared and opener herself up to getting to know her son beyond what she wanted from him.

And here comes, what I mentioned earlier. This very same scene, there is once again some discourse among the teachers about Tinn and Gun's relationship. As was shown and said earlier, she'd been put in a tough position as soon as the pictures of the two had spread, getting calls and complaints from others about the "image" it was giving the school she worked so hard to run. It's made clear from episode one how important it is to her to run the school and maintain what she worked so hard to get. However, in this episode she chooses her son. Not only does she choose her son, but she chooses her morals. We don't see the woman who denied our favorite high school band to perform again and again, but instead we see the woman who wants to run a school where her son, and anyone, can love who they want. I really enjoyed seeing that character development from her, although to me it seems it was always there. It wasn't entirely her that changed, but our perception of her and Tinn's perception of her and I think that was a really smart move on the part of the writers.

One smaller detail I want to mention is the scene where the Chinzilla members are all waiting together to find out their college/future plan results. The scene was much like one from a previous episode, when they waited to find out the winner of the contestant they had tried so hard to be. In the previous scene they are all met with disappointment. It's a very important moment for all of them and continues to follow the theme of youth and dreams. In that case, their dream didn't come true. In life, that is often the case. We don't always get what we want no matter how hard we try. That taught a tough lesson. However, in this later scene they follow that up with a positive tone. Gun finds that he was accepted and the group hugs and celebrates. It's a direct contrast to their previous disappointment and it really gave such a nice, although possibly corny message that you should never give up on your dreams and even if something doesn't work out, there's ways something else that will.

This next one I usually never ever talk about because I don't like it, so the fact that I'm not only okay with bringing it up, but okay that it even happened speaks wonders about how highly I thought of this finale. TinnGun versus GunTinn. I hate this. Like really really hate whenever this is brought up in a BL. It's stupid and it always opens up room for what we all know is a very real issue in the consumption of mlm media. Fetishization. You aren't truly a BL fan until you've been made very uncomfortable by someone discussing which of your favorite characters… yeah. So whenever this is brought up in a BL, even in a joking manner, I hate it. But I just couldn't hate it this time. Because once again, they did it so well. As usual, it was brought up by other people. Their classmates' curiosity and rather selfish need to pry into their business (in my opinion) brought up the subject. But it didn't result in anything weird, for lack of a better word. In fact it was sweet and even funny. It perfectly fit Tinn and Gun, and did show a little bit more of maturity on their part since the show has maintained a rather innocent feel around their relationship. Gun doesn't even know what the order means and Tinn has to tell him. He whispers it to him right there in the hallway and it's the cutest fucking thing. And instead of awkwardness or toxic arguments (I'm looking at you, My Engineer) it turned into teasing and gave the entire argument I've grown so tired of from BL, a light hearted tone. For once, I didn't feel uncomfortable or like they were making it some weird reference to the sick interest of fans (too harsh? Maybe. But idc) but it really felt like it was about TinnGun and their dynamic and it was just really fucking cute, there's no other way to describe it. What is also good about it, is often when BL do have that argument they will reveal which way it is one way or another, and it's just such a weird thing that they feel the need to do that. If it's a scene where they are like actually showing it, fine whatever I guess. but when they talk about it after the fact and make a point of making it clear what happened is so weird to me. Even Bad Buddy did that. I hated that scene in Bad Buddy. It took away some of my enjoyment from the show. My point is, MSP didn't do that and I appreciated that. Because it really doesn't matter, so shut the fuck up and srop being weird and trying to force gender roles on gay relationships.

Those were my main points but there are so many more details I could discuss. A lot of the focus being on Gun and his friends rather than the whole episode being about TinnGun and how important that is to Gun's character and to the show. How their support for Gun when the photos appeared online was a huge deal.

All the small references to previous events such as Tinn's dad buying a new guitar after Tinn gave Gun hid and Gun almost revealing it to him on accident. It gave such small and not entirely necessary, but very cute and funny background on previous events, tying it all together. These details also really helped the series to feel more full and real. A living and breathing story, rather than words on a script.

The entire series and especially that finale was just so well done and I can't believe such amazing work came from a silly little romance about a singer and his school president boyfriend. Except I can, because that silly little vibe is exactly how it was able to create something like this. I'm so grateful for this series and I'm so so so so sad to see it end but the end truly was perfect.

If you have read all of this… you are as obsessed as me, huh?

[enigma731]

I'm a little scared to jump into the conversation about Gamora/starmora because I feel like people have a lot of strong feelings about gotg and I don't want to be misunderstood or seen as if I'm criticizing something people love. Hopefully it's okay if I offer my opinion anyways.

I think when it comes to Peter I knew how badly he was hurting because we saw it in IW, EG, Thor and the holiday special. His characterization was easy to understand. I could relate to him and even when he was being frustrating I got it. Plus the other characters also felt for him and cared about him and what he was going through. That made his pain more real to me.

With Gamora we haven't seen her since EG. Last time we saw her she still showed that in her heart she wanted to do the right thing. She started to open up to Nebula. Then it's vol 3 and suddenly she's a ravager. She only cares about money. She's not being very nice to the characters the story has been built around us becoming emotionally attached to. Plus most of the other characters seem emotionally tuned out from her. The one character emotional tuned in is Peter who she's having a tough time with. In vol 2 Gunn did this amazing thing where he allowed us to change our perspective on Nebula pretty early on not by changing her character but by revealing the nature of her abuse and the reason for some of her actions. In vol 3 we don't get that change in perspective until the very end when we finally get a glimpse of what Gamora's dynamic with the ravagers is. They are where she found solace in the future and of course now it clicks why some of her reactions and actions happened. But it's not till the end and we still don't know her story in the way we know the other characters

Anyway that's my experience with why it was harder to understand Gamora and Peter's dynamic at the end and Gamora on her own. At least not until I could think about it more and read other people having some good discussions about all of this. And to be clear I never disliked Gamora or didn't care at all. It was just more difficult to understand what they were going for at first.

Interesting, and I definitely appreciate hearing different experiences.

I think, though, that we see Gamora shifting to doing the right thing when she protects Rocket on Counter-Earth? She could just ditch him and leave. She could certainly let the High Evolutionary's henchmen or Adam take him. Instead she risks her life to protect him. Then, when Nebula tells her to get off planet as it's exploding, she goes and picks up Peter and Groot (albeit badly) instead. She actively works with Peter to use the pass key to save Rocket and is clearly emotionally impacted by it. And she actually only says she's there for the money one time, which is less than she talks about it in Vol 1. So while her words might say one thing and we might see her hesitating at times and grappling with her ingrained survival instincts, her actions show us that her inner goodness is still there long before the scene with the Ravagers.

I need to actually make note of this on my next watch, but I'd bet pacing-wise that the shift in her actions happens about as far into Vol 3 as it does in 1, for Nebula in 2, and for 2014 Gamora in Endgame.

[dilfdoctordoom]

I was reading through some of your Gamora posts and it's impossible to overlook how outwardly mean vol 3 is to Gamora. No matter how one might try to justify it it's nuts having characters blatantly ignore her presence, especially when Peter wasn't being all that decent to her and blaming her for a predicament she had no control over anymore than Rocket. The total lack of emotions shown over Gamora's death by that majority of her family and keeping her from getting to be a guardian again is similarly nutty when that's all the movie series has been about. This has a very "the cruelty is the point" vibe.

There is something strange about letting her be murdered with zero intent of using the existence of her past self to allow her to have a strong comeback. It's almost sadder that she was denied finding family with the given the nature of her abuse and death than it was to kill her in the first place.

It's also sad that some Gamora fans and Zoe see Gamora as still having potential when the way Gunn wrote things leaves her the least likely to return. All he's done is double down on her not being a guardian and though I doubt marvel will do more with these characters anyway, if they ever did I don't think they would see her as automatically included. I can only see true interest in possible guardins content. They didn't make merch for Gamora because she's a ravager. I know many people have spoken more thoroughly than myself but I still wanted to share my thoughts because the female lead didn't get a funeral or a warm welcome home and you can't buy a funko pop of her with all the characters. That's not an unintentional blindspot.

"That's not an unintentional blindspot" is just the summary of her treatment from Infinity War onwards. There's intent behind everything that was done to her and that intent needs to be critiqued.

Gamora's left at such a strange place, given that the movie did little to actually let us know the Ravagers were her "real family" prior to a single hug. I don't see her coming back, to be honest, outside of her upcoming episode in What If...? Given how that show, too, is victim of excluding her, I don't expect her to appear any further in it.

The choice to have a version of Gamora stick around feels strange after Vol 3. Everything about Vol 3 feels strange, to be honest. There's the whole thing about it being pitched as Gamora and Nebula's story, the claim from the High Evolutionary actor that he'd connect to every Guardian, all of the missing dialogue from the trailers, that makes it feel like there's some version of this movie we just did not see.

I'm trying to hold out hope for Gamora. As you said, as a fan, I can see so many different appearances for her, from cameoing with the Ravagers in the likes of The Marvels, tying into Eros and Pip in Eternals 2, or showing up for an Annihilation adaption, maybe appearing in the eternally rumored Nova project... but I doubt Marvel sees the same potential in her character. Zoe Saldana has said that she would be willing to at least consider returning to the character, even if she'd prefer a recast. There are options, I just don't see Marvel going for any of them.

[caatws]

I saw vol 3 again because I wanted a second pass at it before landing on my final thoughts. The conclusion I've come to is James Gunn didn't want to talk about Gamora being murdered in the movie because he knew it would provide a strong contrast between Gamora being killed in Infinity War and how he wrote this whole story about Rocket deserving to live and not have his life taken away by his abuser. The contrast isn't pretty. But the truth is nothing about how Thanos treated Gamora was pretty. Covering that up doesn't make it go away. He didn't want to do the hard thing of acknowledging that 2018 Gamora wasn't getting a happy ending with eveyone else. That 2014 Gamora wasn't getting a full story because her life got thrown off course when she came to the future and she didn't get much time or space in vol 3 to reconcile the different parts of herself.

I noticed a few people have been really confused or upset about James Gunn calling the ravagers Gamora's real family. After seeing vol 3 again I'm confident in saying his comment is wrong and also insulting to the entire situation. The premise of the movie is Gamora has been avoiding the guardians and hearing anything about a different life she had. I really do wish this had been explored more but for now I'll add it to my list of things I wish were better for Gamora. As the film continues eventually Gamora finds her own rhythm with the guardians. We see her be the one to stab the High Evolutionary and unmask him. This is actually a pretty meaningful moment when considering what went down in IW and also how at times Gamora isn't used to her potential in the movie. After that she's all in helping save the animals and kids and generally being a guardian. She also has a sweet moment with Groot at the end where she can finally understand him and they have what I would say is an exchange that parallels vol 2 when Gamora stopped to tell Groot goodbye and make sure he would be okay before leaving with Ego. This change in her comfortability with the guardians and with knowing about and experiencing a life she had been avoiding has to mean something. It wouldn't make sense for her to not be considered family when going through things together and finding understanding and moments of connectivity is what makes the guardians a family. The family keeps getting bigger. It's added Mantis, Kraglin, Nebula and even Adam and blurp by the end. Why wouldn't she be family too. So I don't know what James Gunn was talking about. Either he worded his comment badly, forgot how he's written his own movies or he was being a jerk to Gamora, but either way I don't really think his comment needs defending. Also I'll add to this that Gamora having a change in how she feels around the guardians and having moments with Groot and Peter is probably the best writing for her in a sea of other stuff that wasn't written very well. If I were James I would want to hype that up more not less. It's the saving grace along with Zoe's acting which he honestly should be praising because she carried that role where the writing failed.

Sorry this got so long but I have been saving up all my thoughts. Thanks for letting myself and others share even if it's cost you some followers. That's there loss though because you're awesome.

yeah the contrast between rocket and gamora's overall stories from vol 1 to now is just....Wow Choices Were Made. kinda along the same lines of how i think gunn was maybe more unserious abt the gamora thing than i would've expected, i'm wondering if he had this like way more optimistic pov that like 2014!gamora finding a new/additional family away from the gotg would be like a fix-it or catch-all of sorts and that ppl just wouldn't rly care abt it deeper than that...? cuz otherwise this whole thing is just so messy and not cohesive lol

but ty anon !!!!! <3 i'm always here to process mcu nonsense with everyone <3333 we can suffer together LMAOOO

[enigma731]

I feel like I saw a different movie from everyone else entirely. Some people talk about happy endings and others are all about bittersweet ones but I have to be honest, this film came across really mean to me. Only wrapped up in a way that was disguised as loving.

You have Mantis who feels nobody listens and isn't strong enough. At the end she knows that's not true. But does she get to stay and be more of a leader. No. The movie instead has her leave implying that for women to be strong and independent they can't have anyone with them who cares about them. That they have to be isolated from others. That's not true. Nobody has to be without people who love them to be strong.

Then there's poor Drax. His best friend tells him she doesn't need him around and he's devastated. The next minute he's happy and dancing as if nothing happened. How is he over it so quickly as if the relationship meant nothing. Also he's dancing. Why? He says he doesn't like it and he loved his wife because she was a great warrior who would never dance. The movie is implying he never danced before because he wasn't actually happy and didn't know any joy until the guardians. That's awful. Drax didn't have to dance to be happy and it's okay if he had a good life with his wife before losing her. That doesn't make his relationship with the guardians less important.

Then you have Gamora. Almost everything about her role was awful. The whole film basically made it seem she was always a terrible person who deserved what she got. Nebula says she was always like that and I was so mad. What's wrong with her. Gamora and Nebula were both children and victims forced to do bad things. All of it because of Thanos. Did Nebula forget she was going to blow up all of Zandar because of her anger. She's not perfect either. Now it's being said Gamora was just a bad person and it's okay she was abused unlike Nebula. This Gamora is the same woman who was devastated when she learned that Thanos won in the future. She was crying and had to hide her emotions from Thanos. She encouraged 2014Nebula that she could change. She fought along side the Avengers even though she had very little understanding of what was going on. None of this is referenced. What's worse is they put her with the ravagers. The same people Gunn has said abused Peter and can be violent and misogynistic. They put the love of his with people who harmed him and then made her happier to be with them than the guardians. A whole movie about how abuse is wrong turned a childhood victim of genocide and abuse who went on to love and carry this family into someone who had to be forced to do the right thing, doesn't care for most of the movie and the family she once loved have no feelings about her except Peter and Groot at the end. I've seen people say time travel made her bad but that makes no sense. Others have said it's the ravagers but I don't see Kraglin portrayed this way. At least at the end they show she's becoming a better person but that just demonstrates the guardians are who her family should be. Instead of letting her stay with Nebula the movie put her back with the ravagers.

I know not everyone will feel this but I loved that Gamora got to be played by a woc who was shown to have flaws but also be a good person who deserved to be loved and treated with empathy. vol 2 did a superb job at allowing Nebula to speak her truth and Gamora to speak hers and then show that Thanos was to blame for it all. Now it seems they are retracting all of that to say only one of them suffered real abuse and I don't think that's right.

I don't believe anyone really got a happy ending outside of Rocket and Nebula who the movie seemed to be framing as the only characters who had genuinely traumatic pasts that they had grown past enough to get everything they always wanted.

...yeah, I also feel like you saw a different movie than everyone else