#that is NOT even an interpretation. denethor quite literally says it. just no one remembers it because it is him saying it!

[rarepairnation]

do you think faramir ever found out about gandalf’s part in denethor’s death. oh yes i do think he had a part in it. i think he knew him too long to not know the effect of what he said. i’m generally very enamored by the concept of the gandalf faramir wizard-pupil relationship being very close so just a blanket disclosure that that is the theory i am operating from but like…no matter how much he cares for and trusts gandalf. it was his father he cried out for at the end. and everyone tries to keep the specifics of what happened in the house of the stewards at the end from him but i mean, he is who he is. if he sits beregond or pippin down and very seriously says to them i will not have you keep secrets from me any longer, even if it is for my own sake. i mean it is over for them. i just think that it would take him a certain amount of time to process through how he feels about all of it at all and eventually he comes down solidly on the side of being absolutely incandescently angry. which is an emotion he has never ever directed towards gandalf and i don't think either of them come out of the confrontation particularly well at all.

i mean its so complicated because faramir cannot tell if what he's feeling is grief at all and in there is also a certain amount of guilt for feeling. relieved? freed? by the absence of that presence at the same time as there is an enormous gaping hole in the middle of his life. a part of his foundation has been torn out and people address him as lord steward and the tower guard salutes him as he goes by and he thinks that isn't me that should never have been me. and i think maybe he thinks i would have traded any amount of scorn for having him back. and when he finds out that gandalf was there, that he stood by and watched - no, he may as well have lit the pyre himself - no, it is neither, but the point is that he did nothing to stop it. he did nothing to stop it and by doing that he has robbed faramir of any choice in reconciling - OR CHOOSING NOT TO - with his father because his father is dead and he will never know how he would have loved him without the war. it IS his father's own fault but he cannot blame him for it. not when he knows precisely how he got there and precisely why he made the choices he did. and of course it is the fault of the war but he cannot shout at the war and the war is gone and over and they have won but faramir is not feeling victorious in the least and gandalf is Right There and he is Someone To Blame.

gandalf does not want to tell him what he said, at the end. but faramir makes him, or perhaps is he so angry that he takes it by force - for a moment he is the very image of his father and his mind is the same keen lance that denethor's had always been - and he should not be able to but perhaps gandalf lets him - if faramir takes it then he does not need to be responsible for needing to tell him. and faramir goes very still and quiet and terribly, terribly coldly he says you should never have taken me from him and gandalf says you do not understand he would have burned you with him and he says maybe you should have let him. and he says i would always have died for him. and he says perhaps it is you that does not understand.

i don't know how much of it he means. i don't know how he reconciles all this with his very real love for gandalf (perhaps easily. after all, he has spent a very long time knowing love as a double-edged blade). i don't know if he ever completely forgives him (it is always a scar, even if he does). but. just thinking about it.

[morwensteelsheen]

Can't recall if you've answered this but any headcanons on Faramir's relationship with Imrahil and the other Dol Amroth family members? And just what would they make of him having a fear of the ocean as you've mentioned before?

Oh yeah so I did a bit of that here under the guise of Éowyn, so if it sounds like I’m sort of repeating things that’s why. Here’s Faramir’s side —

Lothíriel

 I’m going to start with her because I think she’s my most controversial take. I don’t really see her as this firebrand as I think the general fanon interpretation is. Instead, I sort of envision her as similar to Finduilas in that she’s a bit more Content with the state of the world and her relationship to it than e.g., either Éowyn or Faramir. Because of this I think Faramir always sees her very much as The Younger Cousin in a way that isn’t necessarily true for any of the Dol Amroth youths. I think he’s maybe a bit conflicted about her marrying Éomer, though largely because I see that as a political marriage whereas he and Éowyn just aren’t. And I think because obviously Éomer and Aragorn are so close, he sees Éomer in the same age bracket (if that’s even possible with these Númenórean weirdos) and not so much with Lothíriel. I don’t think they have a hugely close relationship, but I think the common fanon interpretation that they’re both really into music is delightful and something I sign up to very happily. I think largely they’re maybe not as close as some portrayals (including some of my own) show them. That said, I think they do have a lot of similarities, and I think the people that come to their family dynamic late (Éowyn, Éomer, Aragorn) see it more clearly than they do. I think Lothíriel is more given to that sort of old-world longing that Faramir is, though maybe not in as overtly an intellectual way, and I think she certainly figured herself as a guardian of certain moral and political norms, which Faramir definitely does. Still, Faramir’s like a year away from entering the army (in my HC) by the time she’s born, and that plus the inevitable gendered divisions means they’re maybe not super close. Éowyn’s latter day relationship with Lothíriel certainly changes that though, and this is not to say that they’re exactly distant. They’re just not besties.

Amrothos

I didn’t actually realise this was a controversial take until quite recently? But Amrothos is a HUGE nerd to me. He’s basically Faramir if Faramir got to play al his personality faults to the end instead of being forced to engage with reality/politics as they really are. And not that Faramir exactly does that a huge amount pre-death of everybody he loves, but Amrothos really doesn’t have to do it. Actually in a lot of ways Amrothos is my shameless self insert whenever I write in that he’s a huge dweeb who isn’t super interested or capable of interacting with other people and mostly self isolates. I like Altariel’s interpretation (on AO3) that he’s there for the Osgiliath bridge but in my HC he’s way, way more sheltered than that. It’s no knock on him, I think in a lot of ways he ends up acting as a brilliant bridge between the Third and Fourth Ages aa someone who remembers the war but isn’t necessarily scarred or made cynical by it, but definitely believes more in the prosperity of peace etc. He and Faramir get on like a fucking house on fire; at first, when he’s younger, Amrothos trails Faramir like a puppy, but later once F’s been to the war, he sees Amrothos more like a touchstone and definitely does whatever he can to spend time with him.

Erchirion

lmao I love the idea of Erchirion as a huge himbo???? I’m so sorry, he’s just my Lancelot and there’s really no avoiding it. Erchirion is the embodiment of what Faramir sees Boromir as: brazen, arrogant, a bit hedonistic. To clarify, I don’t think Boromir is these things, but I absolutely think Faramir casts Boromir in those terms when he’s at his crankiest. Erchirion, however, absolutely is those things and is supa, supa proud of it. He’s definitely got the most contentious relationship with Imrahil, but I think Faramir sort of treasures his relationship with Erchirion because it gives him the chance to gently tease/chide someone who, to him, embodies Gondor’r worst excesses. Though he and Erchirion of course are similar in that they are (for their pre-war lives) both the second son and therefore largely absolved of any real responsibility, I still think there’s a bit of a gulf there in that Faramir feels like this military shit is forced onto him by circumstance whereas Erchirion kind of picks it. Still, I think it’s sort of cathartic for F to rib Erchirion and Erchirion absolutely does not give a fuck because he’s rich, good looking, and connected to hella power.

Elphir 

I think they’ve actually got the closest relationship of all of Imrahil’s kids, largely because I think Elphir’s of a similar sort of attitude to Faramir. I think Elphir’s very much been moulded in Imrahil’s likeness, and I think he’s got that sort of flamboyant charisma I imagine Imrahil to have, but it’s been way, way toned down in light of his ongoing service in the war effort (whatever that looks like). Also, he and F are quite close in age so they’ve just had more time to mellow out their relationship and sort of play the Woe Is Me, War Is Shit stuff, which really brings them together. Elphir is married and a father well in advance of Faramir, and so I think Faramir occasionally looks at Elphir and sees something of what his life might have been like. Not in a bitter or jealous way, just in a very detached, academic sense of wonder.

Imrahil

I am getting hella deja vu here because I feel like I’ve said this before but I think Imrahil’s relationship to Faramir pre, say, TA3001, is basically exclusively familial with no political edge to it. Once Faramir comes Of Age relatively speaking, I think Imrahil realises Faramir’s far more amenable to taking divergent positions from his father’s line and tries to use that to his advantage. Not in a cruel way, just in a way that’s realistic about how politics works. Sometimes F agrees, sometimes he doesn’t. Either way, that long term negotiation with his uncle re: politics means that when they get to the point of F being steward, they’ve got a really good sense of how the other works and an inarguably honest relationship. Probably bluntly so. I’ve always imagined that Imrahil is the one to break the news about Denethor’s death to Faramir and that’s as much about defending his sister’s last living son as it is about protecting the fraught political situation.

Ivriniel 

I think Faramir constantly has a similar relationship to her that a rowdy teen might have to a strict mother. I don’t think that ever changes, even when he’s literally the Steward of Gondor and, in fact, I think that brings a tremendous and invaluable sense of normalcy to both of their lives. I think F doesn’t have any strong opinions on her and Éowyn sniping at one another except that it’s good craic.

The Faramir being scared of water HC is wholesale plagiarised from @khokali but I think Imrahil, Elphir, Erchirion, as sailors of some sort or another, are all fuckin merciless about taking the piss out of Faramir for it. Amrothos is sort of ambivalent except that he thinks it’s weird that Faramir doesn’t take even a distant scholarly interest in the sea, and Lothíriel is very, very empathetic but doesn’t really outwardly argue for that. Ivriniel absolutely does not give a fuck, she has more important things to think about than children being scared of water.

Edit: I should say— after a certain age I think Faramir is (correctly) taught that his emotions are very political, and so learns to be careful about who he reveals them to and when. Unfortunately, he cops to the ocean-fear stuff when he’s a kid so that shit sticks with him for life. It’s really not until Éowyn comes along that he learns how to process emotions as not inherently a political statement and as something that can be felt and understood independently of pragmatic considerations. So the Dol Amroth mafia know about the sea-fear, but nobody else does, and for a very, very long time it’s his only ‘visible’ weakness.