#tfatws criticism

[polyavenger]

Warming up the discourse with Bucky‘s „I like 40‘s music“ content in CATWS again.

Does it look like shit if Bucky says a meaningful album for people more marginalised than him who also happened to be treated like shit in the decade his comfort music is located: YES

But how was Bucky introduced to modern music? Not like Steve, gently shoved into a world of iPods with recommendations by friends.

Readers, Bucky probably heard modern music only when he was killing people or being raped for fun.

I would also not like modern music ffs.

[katoninefandoms]

This moment was always interesting to me. This show spent a lot of time trying to explore both the racism Sam faces, and Bucky's struggle with his past and mental health. I believe only the former was really successful, with the police, the governemnt overlooking him, the bank struggle. And maybe it was purposeful to have people glossing over Bucky and treating his struggle irreverently (even his "therapist"), even if that really sucked to watch.

But like. For a guy half out of time, trying to not only readjust to another new decade, a new century with his mind mostly his own, and, of course, his own mind and personality now that he's no longer being controlled...

I struggle even, to listen to or read or watch new things, important things, cultural touchstones, because when my mental illness is at its worst, I need the things I already know. New things can be nice and ok, but I'm not always going to appreciate them properly when I'm in that headspace.

I'd bet that Bucky listened to Trouble Man and really did like it, but it wasn't something he could process at that time. And then he's getting dunked on for not appreciating it "properly." In my experience, stuff like that just alienates you and makes you feel like you're not trying hard enough, or you're bad at being a person. And for someone struggling with ptsd and identity, I can't imagine this moment wouldn't have an effect on Bucky.

Sam and Bucky's two struggles clash against each other in this scene, and it feels so unbalanced. Even the literal bad guy is dunking on Bucky for not commenting on the specific cultural impact of this album.

It just really grinds my gears that they decided they wanted to focus on Bucky's recovery, but made it a bad and rough and unfair sort of recovery. Even his friends and allies weren't understanding in the small moments where it counted. I could understand that it might be realistic, because the world has such a negative view of him, people would have skewed opinions and be more unwilling to help him. But that sucks!! Why can't the fiction be kind? It's fiction. People were really rooting for Bucky, post-Endgame, and this facet of the show really let us down, I think.

The Falcon and the Winter Soldier - 1x03 "Power Broker"

[lavenderpanic]

I'm having so many angry Bucky thoughts but like. I'm gonna be real it was fucking weird for Marvel to insinuate that Bucky was SA'd as the Winter Soldier in TFATWS and then never fucking address it again. Like? It was so obvious how that scene was meant to be taken. From Sam's concern and confusion to Selby's instant understanding and delight to Bucky's painful embarrassment to the way Zemo touches his face and speaks so knowingly it's just. Ugh oh my god. They never should have had that scene if they couldn't address it properly.

[musette22]

may i ask why haven’t you watched tfatws? i’ve recently started following you, you don’t watch mcu anymore?

Hi there! Of course you can ask, I don't mind at all. I understand why you'd wonder about that, seeing as this blog is quite heavy on the marvel-related content lol. Basically, I stopped watching mcu movies and shows after Endgame, because it pretty much destroyed all faith I had left in marvel thanks to the way it (in my opinion) royally fucked up Steve's character arc and made all the wrong calls regarding his relationship with Bucky.

It just made me so unbelievably sad and angry, and I hated that, because I genuinely believe that fandom should be about what makes you happy and that was just not the case for me for a while there. So eventually I just decided that it was just better for me to distance myself from canon the mcu, and focus on the things that did still bring me joy, i.e. the headcanons and stories that we as a fandom have created, based on the canon material but diverging enough from it too to make it actually - in my opinion - good and enjoyable (I usually just call it fanon, though I know that's got inherently negative connotations too, but you know what I mean).

I've always been a Stucky shipper first and foremost. Those two boys are a package deal for me, and thinking about - let alone seeing - one of them without the other genuinely upsets me. So unfortunately, that means I can't enjoy any new Bucky content in the mcu anymore either, because it's Bucky in a world where Steve left him, and that's just not a world I want any part of, if that makes sense. So I'm sticking with my own version of events, which is that Bucky and Steve are enjoying life together somewhere, and I'm just going to leave the new movies and shows for others to enjoy!

[logansgaar]

The Falcon and the Winter Soldier was not a show written or directed by people who liked either of the characters it was about.

[a-hyperfixating-fanatic]

@thefallenbibliophilequote explained some large problems of TFATWS in the tags and I thought I should share.

It's fascinating to me how a lot of the people who were fans of Bucky from caws and cacw era seem to be the ones calling out the inconsistencies, ooc, and ableist stuff with his character in tfatws. While the people who weren't fans of his character or even disliked him now like his character in tfatws a lot more.

Before I start, I wasn’t a Bucky fan until I started watching TFATWS. I’ve been saying CATWS is one of my favourite MCU movies for years, but uh…the reason I loved it wasn’t for Bucky, per se. And let’s just say when I went to the US around the timing of CACW, the Tsum Tsum I bought wasn’t of Team Cap. I definitely didn't dislike him, but if you asked me my favourite MCU characters before this year, I don’t think he’d even be in the top 5. So...uh, anomalies do happen.

I'd be really curious about people who disliked him before TFATWS then found him likeable. I wonder what changed their mind?

As for why older fans are disappointed - as always with disappointment, it's the mismatch between reality and expectation. I think there's a couple of things here.

From a canon point of view, Bucky was established as a caring, supportive and loyal friend in CATFA. While we didn't see much of his personality in CATWS, we saw the torture he was subjected to, his vulnerability in the hands of his captors, and his heartbreak when all of the lies came apart. In CACW he was standoffish with people he didn't trust, but there was also a surprising softness and a dogged protectiveness in spite of everything he had been through. This is carried over in BP, IW and EG, as brief as his scenes were (kudos to Sebastian) -- there was gentleness, there was a quiet pain, there was stoic determination, and there was the trustworthiness.

Now from the fandom side, 7 years is a long time for things to brew - head canons, metas, hot takes, alternative explanations, fanfics...and all of that bleed into fans' impressions of Bucky's character. Again, Sebastian brought more to the story than Bucky's handful of lines, but there's a lot that isn't explicitly depicted that could be extrapolated, such as how much torture Bucky had to undergo to lose his sense of identity. There's also a lot of blanks in his story that invite theories, such as what his family life was like, what sort of work he did before he joined the military, what sort of hobbies he had etc. Fans who have lived with him for 7 years have a fully-fletched person they're carrying into the start of TFATWS.

But in TFATWS, we are introduced to a different Bucky, one that is raw and irritable, bordering on careless and petulant. It was an acceptable starting point, as his grief and anger and guilt are all believable emotions for what he's experienced, but the series then refuses to address any of the underlying issues.

It is afraid to talk about the hurt Steve's decision caused him (and Sam!) and circles around Steve's meaningless absence. It ignores the pain Hydra has caused him over 70 years of torture and forces him to amend for the pain Hydra caused others. It dismisses the importance of body autonomy to a Prisoner of War like him, and makes several jokes about enslavement, body modifications and "disarming". It drives him into uncharacteristically irrational and thoughtless actions -- when canon told us Bucky was someone who cautiously stayed under the radar for 2 long years even while amnesiac and confused.

It flaunted Bucky's pain and anger and guilt while sweeping all the causes of his pain and anger and guilt under the rug, then it told us he was healed by "owning" what happened and that's my villain origin story.

TFATWS did not match up to older fans’ expectations of Bucky’s character, his arc, or his interactions with Sam. I think a small part of that is fanon getting in the way, but a much larger part is TFATWS ignoring established canon, particularly the issues that made Bucky a unique and sympathetic character.

[amarriageoftrueminds]

that anon made some good points. i always found it weird how the majority of people in the cap fandom only criticizes steve's actions in endgame but ignore how sam and bucky canonically are cool with their friend turning into some time-traveling villain playing with the lives of god knows how many people. which actually makes both of them bad people too! not as bad as endgame! steve of course but you know what i mean.

maybe it's fans confusing fanon with canon, where steve is often called out and punished by sam & bucky by the endgame critical side of the fandom? idk but none of that happened in canon. quite the opposite. they still call steve their friend by the end of the show.

just to be clear i believe nothing since that godawful movie made sense so this is not me bashing sam and bucky. but i do find it interesting how fandom mostly focuses on the part of steve abandoning his friends and not how endgame's bad writing greatly damaged sam and bucky's characterization too. why are not more people angry about that?

In reference to (x)

Yeah it's really a domino effect. The negative implications of one load-bearing 'good' character demolishes the values of a whole relay of other characters. The proverbial one bad apple that spoils the barrel. (Altho tbh the fact that TFATWS Bucky could be swapped out with Brock Rumlow without it affecting the plot, because of how villainized he is, kinda tells you just how badly they've written him. That guy isn't Bucky. That's just SebStan with a terrible haircut and a poorly-fitted plastic jacket.)

It's such infuriatingly shoddy absence of continuity, that EG makes Steve almost a split-personality too. The way he answers the first question(?) Sam ever asks him in CATWS by criticising how bad things were in the past versus how good they are in the future (and they're all things that aren't undermined by the plot, where bad things are revealed in the future!)

You can't be that guy and the 'doing nothing=bad' guy and go and live in the 1950s to do nothing while your 'best' friend is tortured. You just can't! 🤷‍♀️ That would be beyond the pale even for a full-blown villain!

[staying-elive]

So, I was thinking

I'm still annoyed by the shoddy and way too rushed use of Skrulls in Sectret Invasion. I'm not alone in thinking this should've been enacted over an entire Phase, not a six episode show with no big main characters.

A post Blip MCU could've been an ideal landscape for this story. They could've started planting seeds throughout.

Imagine if at the end of TFATWS, when Sharon is shot and bleeding, she's hiding her wound and refuses Bucky taking her to the hospital. Why? Because we, the audience, get to see that she's bleeding purple. 😯 Weird.

Then the show wraps as planned (i.e. it doesn't get derailed by this question) and then in Sharon's post credit, there's the reveal! She's a Skrull! (Takes care of people not liking her villain turn) She's not the Power Broker (fix that), but the Power Broker could also be a Skrull. Madripoor could be a pretty good base of operations for a group of insurgents. Unregulated, shady ties, lots of shady people, etc.)

I'm not 100% sure how this would affect the Flagsmasher/serum plot, but I'm sure there's a way to tweak this too, since Sharon's reason was flimsy,l. Maybe recreating the super soldier serum was a first attempt to create Super Skrulls, but turns out it's only compatible with human physiology, blah blah something. (Maybe while we're at it, tweak some more so that you don't have a case of displaced young people becoming terrorists. I'm sure a good writer could tie these together somehow.)

Anyone, my point is, Phase 4 could've started laying the foundation of Skrulls with hints that we the audience see. Then slowly, the characters discover things are amiss. This would allow for Earth bound stories in Phase 4, and establish new characters as a potential new Avengers line-up.

You could still introduce new characters, Shang Chi and Ms. Marvel, for instance. But these characters would need a major crossover cameo, like how Sam Wilson appeared in Ant Man, which allowed Sam to recruit Scott into CA:Civil War.

If an Avenger, say Sam again or Rhodey or Doctor Strange (or keep Wong appear at the end of Shang Chi!) or NICK FURY, know of these new characters, THEN when the Skrull situation begins seeming more serious and wide spread, our heroes can reach out to these newbies, knowing that they need more help, reinforcements, and knowing that it's unlikely that these unknowns will have been Skrulled.

Everything feels more integrated, connected in an organic way; there's something for an audience to get hyped about and theorise about between films; it allows for smaller films coming off of Endgame's high, giving space to breathe and rebuild; and importantly, the Phase would culminate with Avengers: Secret Invasion. Every phase needs an Avengers team up, and by this point, you could have established the team, form new bonds, and establish the threat with a real sense of paranoia, suspicion and competency.

The downside to this plan is you'd lose the multiverse, or just push it to Phase 5. Personally, I haven't liked any of these films enough to care about losing them, but I know each have their fans. Regardless, I think Phase 4 was absolutely the wrong Phase to introduce such a narratively messy idea to rebuild the MCU around.

These are just my thoughts, though. Curious to know anyone else's!

[buckydeservesthebest]

Hey 👋

Favourite falcon and winter soldier scenes??

Hi dear! Tksm for asking my opinion! 💙

Well, as you can see, I'm a Bucky simp and I drool every time he appears on screen. And even though I usually make quite a lot of criticisms to the series because of the unfair, insensitive and often offensive approach the production had of Bucky, there were also many scenes that I found very beautiful and touching... so it's really hard to choose from all of them, but this is my attempt, in no particular order..

• "You are free"

God... this scene is so powerful, overwhelming, touching and sad at the same time that I have no words... I can't watch this scene without crying... i'm crying right now

• Bucky saving the hostages and being thanked by one of them

The look of surprise is his face is so touching, like he never expected anyone to ever thank him for anything, this scene brings tears to my eyes...

• Bucky bringing Zemo to the Dora Milaje

Bucky let him talk all he wanted and his only response was to pull the trigger of an empty gun and drop the bullets from his other hand. The Winter Soldier is no more, his name is James Bucky Barnes...

• You can't dethrone the King

I love so much how this fight scene is actually "You can't dethrone the King." And the fact that Bucky always used the back unsharp side of the knife when fighting is just so *chef kiss*

• Bucky just relaxing

Seeing him carefree and smiling fills my heart like nothing else 😭💓

[celerieth]

Let me be brutally honest for a sec; how many videos and posts have been made by actual mental health workers calling out this 'therapist'? I don't know the exact number, but I've read at least ten different posts quoting several different callouts. If someone could count the actual number, that'd be great.

Did not see the paralells, did not need to cry over James Buchannane Barnes (have I spelt Buchannane right?) at 10 in the morning, but here we are.

Also, I was hoping she was from what's left over of H.Y.D.R.A, because that would explain a lot, but the FATWS missed a golden opportunity! Like, yes I want Bucky to have some actual (well overdue) therapy, but if they were going to give him a bad therapist at first, couldn't they at least give a reason why she was so terrible?

Honestly, this just wants to make me band together a team of fic writers to rewrite 90% of phases 4 and 5.

“oh, the notebook. that’s great.”

[gay-jewish-bucky]

rocket really got the arc bucky (also) should have had, huh?

[captainwidowspring]

On Nico's Ability to Defend Himself

An often-overlooked aspect of Nico's death scene in TFATWS is that there was literally nothing preventing him from thwarting John's attempt to kill him, and keeping it from being a death scene; he just didn't so that there would be a reason for the Captain America title to be stripped from John and given back to Sam. I feel like a major reason why a lot of people don't pick up on this fact, and instead perceive Nico to be defenseless (aside, of course, from the shamelessly manipulative framing) is that in the Siberia incident, the incident Nico's death scene is frequently compared to, Tony, after he lost the upper hand, didn't really get a chance to do much before Steve disabled his suit. It thus didn't stick out too badly when Nico also didn't do much before John attacked him with the shield, even though there was a lot more he could have done. Therefore, let's examine the two situations to see how they are different.

This is how the shield incident played out in Siberia. Near the end of the battle, Tony had managed to gain the upper hand and inflict serious damage on Steve. After Steve refused to stop defending Bucky, Tony prepared to straight up blow Steve out of the bunker and down the mountain: but right before he got the repulsor shot off, Bucky grabbed his leg. Irritated, Tony turned and kicked Bucky in the head with his metal boot. Then, before Tony had the chance to do anything else, Steve grabbed Tony and hoisted him into the air; Tony tried to use the jet packs on his boots to get out of the situation, but too much damage had been inflicted on them at that point for them to be of use, and Steve threw him to the ground. Steve then immediately rushed on top of Tony and punched his face mask three times out of sheer fury, after which he broke the helmet by hitting it twice more with his shield and then tore it off. He subsequently raised the shield, which caused Tony to frantically raise his arms to cover his face, and this allowed Steve to have a clear shot at the arc reactor, which he brought his shield down on and broke.

Now, considering how thoroughly biased Civil War is against Steve, and how much it sought to act like he was the one in the wrong—even though the entire Siberia fight was literally just Tony having a temper tantrum and Steve and Bucky trying to survive it—the creative team certainly wouldn't have minded if Tony had cried out in fear like Nico did, as it would be quite useful for the propaganda efforts. Therefore, there is clearly some reason why he didn't.

And it appears that there are two main reasons for this. The first reason seems to be that everything simply happened too fast. Indeed, the entire incident, from Tony preparing to shoot Steve to Steve disabling the arc reactor, took place in the span of about fifteen seconds. And Tony totally wasn't expecting Steve to grab him; presumably, he assumed that Steve was injured enough that taking his attention off him for a few seconds in order to kick his friend in the head wasn't a big deal. He underestimated the strength that poured into Steve's limbs when he saw Tony so callously abusing Bucky, as well as the fact that Steve is a supersoldier, so he can move really fast when he wants to.

So there was the element of surprise, and there was also the fact that Tony probably would have been a little stunned, both from the impact of being thrown to the ground, and from being hit in the head multiple times. It must, of course, be remembered that Tony was wearing a full-body metal suit, so no actual harm was inflicted upon him, but Steve is a supersoldier, so even with the layer of protection the impacts would certainly have been felt. These factors combined to produce the effect that, when Steve raised his shield, rather than take the time to yell anything, Tony simply prepared himself to face what was about to happen, which he thought would be Steve attempting to end him. But fortunately for him, he was wrong. Steve wasn't trying to kill Tony; Bucky was still alive, so Steve was able to contain his fury enough to refrain from a killing blow, and he hit the arc reactor instead.

Now, let's look at how Nico's death scene played out. After John pursued Nico for a bit, and managed to fend off a concrete trash can that Nico threw at him, he was able to hit Nico with the shield as Nico ran into a square. This forced Nico to stop to keep his balance, which allowed John to hit him again, and this finally knocked him over. Nico then tried to get back up twice; the first time John hit him with the shield again to keep him down, and the second time he put his foot on Nico's chest to pin him to the ground and stop his escape attempts. Then, since he couldn't try to get away anymore, Nico waved his hands and nervously insisted, "It wasn't me." He said this because, given the role he played in Lemar's death, he was well aware of why John might be mad at him specifically, for more than just being a friend of Karli. John, for his part, had been preparing to interrogate Nico about Karli's whereabouts, but this clear falsehood evidently filled him with rage, and he raised his shield in a fury. Rather than make an effort to block the imminent attack, Nico simply repeated, louder, "It wasn't me!" even though it was clear that John was not about to accept his garbage. And then, of course, since Nico wasn't about to actually do anything, the beating with the shield commenced.

Nico just lay there and was obediently killed, even though there was literally nothing stopping him from simply catching the shield and keeping it off his chest. His arms and hands were not at all restrained—indeed, he was waving them around—and unlike John, who had acquired a gash on his head, Nico was completely uninjured, so there wouldn't have been any pain distracting him either. And as we saw earlier, Nico is just as strong as John—he was able to restrain John so effectively that Karli would have been able to easily stab John if Lemar hadn't stopped her—and his evident fear would likely have given him enough strength to cancel out John's rage. So he would certainly have been able to keep the shield off his chest until Sam and Bucky, who appeared shortly afterwards, could save him if they wanted to.

Indeed, Nico didn't save himself even though, as evidenced by the fact that he did actually have a chance to cry out, he was dealing with a much less challenging situation than Tony was. For one thing, John bringing down the shield on Nico's chest was not at all a surprise. After John had pinned Nico to the ground, Nico had time to say, "It wasn't me" before John made any sort of move: and after John registered what Nico had said, he shifted his shield, which had been on his arm, into a two-handed grip, and then raised it. Nico clearly saw this coming; indeed, this is what caused him to shout "It wasn't me" a second time. And John's intentions at that point were obvious, so it's not like what happened with Tony where Tony thought that Steve was going to do one thing but he did another; it was pretty clear where John's shield was going, and this would have been plenty apparent to Nico since terror tends to make time slow down. So he had ample time to catch it.

Additionally, Nico would not have been stunned in the way that Tony was. Tony was slammed to the ground and then received five forceful rapid-fire close-range blows to the head, which is several hard impacts in a short span of time. Nico, by contrast, was hit once with the shield, then was knocked by John to the ground. This was a much shorter distance to fall than the overhead bench-press position that Tony was thrown from, and there were even stairs to break Nico's fall. Thereafter, Nico was hit with the shield again—and he hadn't gotten very far up, so he didn't fall very far back down—and then John thwarted Nico's final attempt to get up by pushing him down with his foot. In addition to the fact that the push was much gentler than getting hit with the shield again would have been, as before Nico hadn't gotten very far up, so he wouldn't have hit the ground that hard.

Therefore, in contrast to Tony, who received six sharp blows pretty much back to back, Nico received three fairly spread out blows—after the first hit with the shield, John had to close the distance between them and wind up again before hitting him a second time to knock him over, and then Nico fell to the ground and started to get back up before he was hit a third time—as well as a kind of shove. Nico thus did not receive nearly as harsh a pummeling as Tony did. And on top of that, he is a supersoldier: so even if his treatment had been rougher, Nico would have a much higher tolerance for pummeling than normal human Tony would.

Hence, Nico would not only have had plenty of time to see what John was doing, but he also would not have had to contend with the disorientation that Tony experienced. There is no excuse for why his only reaction to John's attack was yelling.

And here's what makes the fact that Nico didn't try to defend himself even more ridiculous. Even though Steve's attack was much more rapid, forceful, and unpredictable than John's was, Tony STILL did the logical thing and was ready to try to catch Steve's shield. Indeed, you can actually see a bit of strategy in his response to Steve raising the shield. Tony knew he wasn't strong enough to entirely keep the shield off his face since his suit was failing, so rather than try to stop it from hitting him, he was instead planning to try to grab the shield during its descent in order to slow it down and cushion the blow. As Steve brings the shield down, you can even see Tony open his fingers as he expects to encounter the shield. Nico did not do anything of the sort, he just aimlessly shouted as he passively lay there and waited for John to kill him. But come on! If Tony, who was just a normal human encased in a suit of rapidly failing metal, and who had been completely taken by surprise with a harsh walloping, could make an attempt to stop Steve from killing him (even though, as it turned out, he didn't need to), then Nico, who was a supersoldier, and who had received far less of a thrashing, could definitely have tried (and succeeded) to stop John from killing him. Especially since, unlike Tony, he actually would have been able to completely stop the shield from hitting him.

There is another difference between the two situations that is very interesting, however. Tony, for his part, was well aware that he was acting dishonorably. For instance, a little after Tony began his assault, when Bucky was trying to run away and Tony was intent on pursuit, Steve stood in front of him and said, "It wasn't him, Tony. Hydra had control of his mind." But Tony already knew this, so he simply responded "Move," in a way that clearly indicated that he didn't care and didn't want to hear it. And a short time later, when Tony prevented Bucky from escaping, Steve tried again to get through to him and said, "This isn't gonna change what happened," but Tony replied, "I don't care, he killed my mom." Tony knew that Bucky wasn't to blame for his parents' deaths, and that killing him would not help anything: but since he was angry with Steve for refusing to accept the Accords and all their rights-violations, he saw the revelation as an excuse to attack both Bucky because he knew it would hurt Steve, and Steve himself because Tony knew that Steve would not just stand by while Bucky was being assaulted. He ignored Steve's attempts to reason with him because he figured that he had enough power to be able to do whatever he wanted, and he also correctly guessed that Steve and Bucky would continuously hold back against him, even though they shouldn't have. And because of these things, before Bucky's intervention, Tony had been about to do something that could have quite possibly ended Steve's life. So when Steve regained the upper hand and Tony was at his mercy, Tony was aware that he had no right to ask Steve to spare him, because when he had been in Steve's position, he had been ready to potentially end Steve's life without a second thought. Therefore, he said nothing; his only response was to see if he had enough strength left to hold off Steve.

So Tony, in the face of Steve's attack, didn't yell anything because he knew that what he had done was indefensible: and it is due in part to this modicum of contrition that Steve was able to contain his rage enough to spare him. Nico, meanwhile, had been doing something similarly heinous. He had been actively engaged in trying to kill John because John was Captain America, and when Lemar frustrated the attempt on John's life, Nico was also the reason why John was unable to protect Lemar from Karli's subsequent death-blow. And just like Tony, Nico had been relying on his strength to protect him from repercussions. So what he had done was just as indefensible as what Tony did: but instead of taking the smallest bit of ownership of this, he tried to completely absolve himself of responsibility for what had happened, and this resulted in his downfall. For while John had clearly been intending to just interrogate Nico, the fact that the person who had held him helpless while his best friend was murdered was trying to act like he was not at all responsible for what had happened caused him to lose it, and this resulted in the shield incident. Now, Nico definitely should have made it clear that he was surrendering if he intended to, and even apologized if he genuinely regretted what had happened to Lemar: and again, when the attack did happen he could have easily fended it off. But if he had simply recognized the fact that he was not worthy of John's mercy since he had not been prepared to show mercy to John, and remained silent like Tony did, the shield-attack would never have happened in the first place.

But in any case, as mentioned above, Nico didn't try to defend himself because John needed to kill him, so that the show would have an excuse to take the Captain America mantle from John and give it back to Sam without it seeming too dubious. (Though considering that the incident ended up resulting in Sam and Bucky attacking John for the shield a very short time after he literally lost his best friend, the show completely failed at that.) Not to mention, if Nico had put up a fight, this would have highlighted how much he was still capable of threatening John, and put lie to the show's attempt to act like he was helpless. Particularly since, again, if he had tried to save himself there is no reason why he would not have been successful.

Now, it is important to also remember that Nico was definitely not surrendering, the other widespread misconception about his death scene. He kept trying to fight John until he literally couldn't—he threw a concrete trash can at John while he was running away, and tried to get back up twice after John initially knocked him over, which is not something someone who wanted to surrender would do—and then after John had him pinned, all he did was try to disingenuously absolve himself of responsibility for Lemar's death, rather than trying to apologize or making it clear that he was surrendering. But on top of the fact that Nico wasn't trying to surrender, and refused to own up to what he had done, he was perfectly capable of surviving John's attack when it happened. These things make his death scene, as well as the subsequent reaction to it, completely ridiculous and utterly nonsensical.

[luna-rainbow]

One of the tragedies of Steve’s character assassination is that neither Sam nor Bucky were allowed to mourn his absence. Unlike with Nat, where Yelena and Clint were able to lay bare their grief during Hawkeye. Nominally, Steve went to lead “the life he wanted”, and the narrative was afraid to open the can of worms around how uncharacteristically irresponsible that was. Hence neither Sam nor Bucky could discuss his loss, nor could they voice their own negative emotions around his absence. Not only were they not allowed anger, but they were also deprived of grief and bewilderment and regret. There was a Steve-shaped hole in TFATWS, and as much as the narrative tried to pretend it didn’t exist, the story was warped by its unshakeable presence.

[breckstonevailskier]

Context does truly matter.

Dumbest TFATWS contradictions

"Steve would never use a gun" *Storms Hydra base literally guns blazing* "But they were Nazis" >And the Flagsmashers are terrorists, next. "Steve would never kill" *Tosses henchmen off Helicarrier* *Kicks dudes out of windows* *Throws grenades at henchmen* >You'd have to be willfully dumb to think a Supersoldier throwing a Vibranium shield at people's heads is not fatal >Kills way more guys in the first Avengers, but blood only now gets on the shield somehow >Hey, maybe Cap should have, as Sam put it, "tried listening to them..." "But he surrendered" *Throws water fountain at John* >Therefore, still an active combatant. *Didn't actually surrender, but instead diverted blame* >Which makes it a heat of the moment situation, rather than a cold blooded murder situation like antis are making it out to be. >All the bad guys Sam and Bucky killed, you've never ONCE seen them fear for their lives until it was John's turn to fight back. More manipulative bullshit. >Of course, it wasn't the right decision to do it in public, but to act as if it's completely irrational makes no sense. He's a soldier, wtf do you think John and Lemar were doing in Afghanistan? Or Steve Rogers in Germany? >It isn't bad that Steve killed bad guys, but with John, it's a problem because the ominous music, the leering, villainous camera angles, blood on the coveted shield, the shocked civilians (and Karli), made it so. "He was unarmed" >He was a Supersoldier- he IS a weapon >Also, how do you go from being a Supersoldier to being helpless? They're just like John, it's not like he unlocked some new level of power after Lemar died, they didn't even really have a reason to stop fighting, other than the show setting John up. Even MORE manipulative bullshit. >Zemo kills an unarmed guy, Sam and Bucky are like, "Don't do it again, bestie", but John, they're like "This isn't you, give up the shield. No one else has to die." "I'm a Black man carrying the stars and stripes. What don't I understand? Every time I pick this thing up, I know there are millions of people out there who are gonna hate me for it." *Iron Patriot: Ceases to exist apparently* Also, missed opportunity to make Bucky the voice of reason for John after losing his best friend and partner, seeing as Bucky and Steve could have been the perfect parallel for John and Lemar. But no, tag team the shit out of an emotionally compromised man while the show acts like it was the right thing to do. In Civil War, Zemo cautioned against putting Steve Rogers on a pedestal, he can kill or have his actions result in the deaths of any number of people but as long as his intent was good, he can do no wrong, because he's a hero. Sound familiar, antis? Not saying that killing bad guys is wrong, Steve and John are soldiers, a soldier kills, but what's important is that they kill the right people. Antis conveniently omit that understanding when it comes to John though... Think for yourselves, you're ignoring reasonable sequencing of events because you're too sprung on the Steve, Sam and Bucky crew to see the show is using cheap tactics to cover up sub par writing and avoidable contradictions. You'd have to be willfully obtuse to ignore that there are more good things to say about Walker than Sam or Bucky. Antis, tell me you can't comprehend characters with depth without telling me you can't comprehend characters with depth.

credit to https://zemoscurl.tumblr.com/ for the amazing tik tok

[asteral-feileacan]

"I know 😔I recall coming across an interview from a showrunner who basically denied Bucky's lack of agency, called him the bad guy, said he needed to be punished for what he's done and then had the gall to say that they hoped trauma survivors felt represented by "what we did for Bucky's trauma".

Excuse me? EXCUSE ME? Bucky was literally captured, experimented on, tortured via electrocution, brainwashed to the point he had no memories and did not even know who he was.... as well as incarcerated against his will for 7 decades and they deny his lack of agency?

Yeah- on some level he does perhaps deserve to be punished but I blame the rich and powerful people who did that to him- and the powerful people who commissioned him to carry out those "missions" far more than I blame Bucky himself.

THEY deserve to be punished more than he does. How do people not get that? Or do the makers of the MCU just love the US government so much they don't understand how messed up it is to blame the person who was lliterally tortured until he couldn't remember who he was more than than the people who tortured and exploited him for their own ends? Sorry if that's too political for you.

Apologies, I've now written a very long post, all because I went back to find the screenshots and got angry about seeing them again XD

I think this is just really problematic for a number of reasons.

First, it's not an "excuse". One of the best things I've ever read anyone say in response to this topic is in this post. Pasted the quotes here:

The analogy is not “if you lost control of your car and killed someone you still need to be responsible for what your car caused”. It is not “if you’re a soldier who followed orders you still need to be responsible for the life you took”. Bucky was not distracted or indoctrinated. He was induced into a state where he had no idea who he was, could barely recall what he did, and where “he will do anything you tell him to”.

The correct analogy is “if someone hijacked your car, tied you up and locked you in the trunk, then drove your car into people, you are not held responsible for what happened to the victims because you were as much a victim as they are”.

I disagree that Bucky deserves to be punished in any capacity for his time as the Winter Soldier, and the quote I pulled from that post explains exactly why in a clearer and more concise manner than I'm about to from a storytelling/character perspective.

So, starting from the end of the first screenshot and moving backwards because I noticed something aggravating:

"I remember every kill. And that means that a part of me was there for one of those."

This is such a POWERFUL sentence. This is a GREAT sentence. This is Bucky admitting his misbelief, which he completely believes, which is not the truth he thinks it is. The misbelief in a character is a device that can elevate the story so much if done well. I mean, this is a man who has suffered one unimaginable cruelty after another, who was tortured and brainwashed to the point that he couldn't remember who he was, to the point that he was controlled into killing people, targets, whomever his handlers wished him to get rid of. And he remembers the faces of every person that the Winter Soldier killed.

That's a hell in and of itself. He's been freed from Hydra, he's recovering himself, he's relearning who Bucky Barnes is, he's trying to figure out who he himself is now in the wake of it all, and in the middle of everything, the world hates and fears him. He hates and fears himself. So the seeds of doubt get planted: why didn't I do more? I could have tried harder. It's my fault.

So he's stuck in a negative feedback loop - no one, not even his own therapist, is helping him to get out of it, and is only perpetuating it. So that's a deeply internalised untruth he can't let go of. He feels guilty.

(Thanks for bearing with me through that) And my point? Spellman in this interview undermines that, intentionally or not.

Stan Lee himself talked to Sebastian Stan about how Bucky is one of the good guys. I'm watching some interviews now, and it's genuinely confusing to me how he has this same point about how it's what Bucky feels about himself, but then in the previous lines he's painting Bucky in this light where it's "an excuse" that Hydra manipulated him. And then I remember the show - again, Bucky is treated so badly by the other characters in this series. That could have been another good storytelling device, but it's the fact that the narrative itself wants Bucky to BE guilty, not FEEL guilty. It's that fact that other characters are put in a good light for dismissing Bucky, and Bucky is put in a bad light for existing. Don't get me started on that therapist.

It's just. UGH. The series had so much potential, and Spellman, despite odd remarks, DOES understand Bucky's psyche in these interviews to some extent. So how did the show end up being such a mess in regards to his trauma, only just managing to scrape together an end note for him there that would have been much more effective if the show had been committed to Bucky, ONE OF ITS MAIN CHARACTERS?

Sebastian Stan, from what I've seen, is pretty much our only saving grace, as I remember reading comments from him that were such a breath of fresh air in the heat of all this.

And you're completely right - Hydra is completely to blame. The government treated Bucky horribly as well, just casting him off while still thinking of him as a threat and doing virtually nothing to help him.

Anyway - I'm so sorry for this lengthy rant. On the upside, now I'm remembering the exact reason that, about a year or two ago, compelled me to start preparing to re-write TFATWS. Maybe I'll go dig out those notes again and give it another shot. That post I linked is brilliant and covers all my gripes in extremely well-composed arguments, and it was worth scrolling through all my posts to find it again XD

TL;DR: The show was nice, but not only could it have been WAY better, it also handled trauma very poorly. As both an avid Bucky fan and a writer, I was and am extremely disappointed. For what it was, it was passable, and I liked it, but it started out on so many deep thoughts about the characters and basically gave up halfway through pretty much all of them.

[breckstonevailskier]

Honestly, if anyone was out of line here, it's the Dora Milaje for trying to kill Walker and Lemar because Walker touched one of them.