#telogony

[diarydoll14]

the telogony does not exist…the telogony does not exist…the telogony does NOT exist…

[aaronofithaca05]

I know is quite long, but what you have said is the Truth, yes in the Odyssey he is not the brightest mind nor soul; he is a pathological liar and is said like every two lines. Yes he slept with Circe and Calypso but not by choice.

Circe forced him to sleep with her or his crewmates would have stayed as pig and then bacon, maybe even he even with the Moly while he was stranded in Calypso's island and we know the rest.

I don't hate Ovid, because thanks to him I would have never known the stories, but is pretty blatant the way he wrote mortals and Medusa; and that's FINE as Epic is, (yes I'm comparing the two because REASONS ).

Funnily enough this is giving me Dante's Inferno flash flashbacks. In his take Odysseus after arriving and staying in Ithaca, abandons HIS FAMILY (PENELOPE AND TELEMACHUS INCLUDED) for the sake of adventure..

And as for "Not sorry for loving you", is without doubt a gaslighting and manipulation song in the original context; fun story: first time i listened to it i never knew it was from Epic as I did not see the title, I fell in love and also related with her because I was in a kinda similar situation although everything changed when I went up to listen to it again and then realization happend and found out what was really been sung.

So yeah, Odysseus is the Odyssey was forced and raped because of the situacion of the moment, in Epic that we know of, never slept with Circe and with Calypso i think but not really sire

In case, you see either my two posts about Epic: The Musical about "There Are Other Ways" and "I'm Not Sorry For Loving You", I want to clarify that I have nothing but respect for Jay's ability to write music. He's talented and he knows what he's doing as the songs are very clever in both music and lyrics and knowing the story makes the songs more impactful. The writing is for "There Are Other Ways" and "I'm Not Sorry For Loving You" shows that Jay knows EXACTLY the situation happening and how to disguise it to hide the nature of what is happening.

That said, I despise these songs because having read the Odyssey, I know what is going on when the songs are happening, and when Jay released snippets of these songs, I saw a lot of people misunderstand the situation because they don't have the same context I do, which is what drives my aggravation.

The second factor that drives my frustration is I have a strong feeling that people who don't read the Odyssey and hear the album are going to misconstrue Odysseus's character into someone who claims to love his wife, but cheats (which he doesn't do) and use these songs as their "proof". Even before Epic came out, people have called Odysseus a cheater and I will admit, I get a touch heated about that because this is my stance: If people want to claim Medusa's later adaptation from Ovid, Persephone, Io, etc. are victims, then they should recognize that Odysseus is one too. If they refuse to acknowledge Odysseus as one, they need to do some soul searching and ask some REALLY uncomfy questions.

I want to be clear: I'm not upset at Jay's writing nor do I think his writing is terrible. Yes, I said "I'm Not Sorry For Loving You" is the worst song ever, but if you read the post, I try to make it clear I'm not coming after Jay's writing, I'm trying to make it clear what the song actually is, rather than what it innocently looks like. Another song I would call the worst song ever is Into The Woods "Any Moment" and that's because of what the song is. Writing's great, music's great, but I still think that song is the worst song ever in Into The Woods given it's Cinderella's Prince looking to incite the Baker's Wife to cheat with him.

Ever since I've read the Odyssey, I was horrified that Odysseus has been treated like a cheater a lot. To be clear, Odysseus does shady, sneaky stuff, but where his feelings on his wife and son are concerned, that is the one consistent. He wants to be with his family. In short, those two posts are basically this:

[xjulixred45x]

Do you know something that honestly bothers me? that when they want to make retellings of Greek stories, they almost always go for the figures that really do not deserve their own story.

I KNOW IT SOUNDS BAD, BUT LISTEN.

Circe, for example, from this woman (who turned out to be quite controversial) Madeline, they try to sell you Circe's story as a "feminist" retelling and normally there would be nothing wrong with that.

The issue is that Circe (in the myths and from what I understand in the book) is not at all feminist.

I mean, she is a morally gray woman, I respect that, but is it really a good idea to use as an example of a "feminist" a woman who 1- killed a man who did not want to be unfaithful to his wife with her, 2- converted an innocent nymph in a MONSTER (Scylla) only for an unrequited love (again) and 3- in Telogony, after Odysseus dies (her supposed "lover" who in some versión she ENCHANTED, at the hands of the son they had together) she marries HIS ANOTHER SON.

Since when did a woman who tramples on men or hurts other women for her own benefit become a "feminist" or "girlboss"??

WITH SO MANY OTHER POSSIBLE SCENARIOS TO MAKE RETELINGS OF GREEK MYTHOLOGY AND THEY DECIDE TO GO FOR CIRCE?

"BUT JUlIx WHAT ANOTHER EXAMPLE DO YOU WANT THEM TO USE?? Circe is SUPER KNOWN, OBVIOUSLY it's easier to go for her"

other examples? let's see:

MEDUSA (old classic, a great allegory that still works today about how SA victims are re-victimized and blamed by the people who should be protecting them/they don't get justice because their attacker is more "relevant" and powerful than them). (Even if it's the Roman versión, You can't Say that a myth that reflects the reality of THOUSANDS of women and give streng to the víctims its not "feminist")

PENTHESILEA(Amazon queen who fought in the Trojan War, which she attended because she was depressed after having accidentally killed her sisters, but she did not leave without killing dozens of Trojans and fighting with Achilles himself. IMAGINE A BOOK ABOUT HER) .

THE AMAZONS IN GENERAL (Tribes of warlike women, daughters of Ares, whom he loved very much, who had a matriarchal system that existed without men, without competition, with a great sense of sisterhood and who participated in many velic encounters in mythology) .

HERMIONE OF SPARTA AND ANDROMACHA (the daughter of Helen of Troy and Menelaus and the wife of Hector of Troy respectively. Both were married against their wills to Neoptolemus, the son of Achilles, who was abusive (quite graphically) and they hated him. Imagine a story where the two become friends and team up to kill Neo, Hermione takes control of Sparta and Andromache is her second in command).

ATALANTA (The only woman of the Argonauts who, when the magical boar of Calidon appeared, was the one who managed to hurt him first and kept the home trophy (but FOR SOME REASON later there are myths that kill her in the stupidest way possible, thanks Aphrodite) )

In conclusion, let's give the spotlight to Greek women who genuinely deserve to be known about them❤️ (without trowing Hate to Circe, she DESERVES TO BE KNOWN, but not as a feminist story).

________

(ESPAÑOL)

¿saben algo que sinceramente me molesta? que cuando se quieren jacer retelings de las historias griegas, casi siempre van por las figuras que realmente no se merecen una historia propia.

SE QUE SUENA MAL, PERO ESCUCHEN.

Circe, por ejemplo, de esta mujer(que resulto ser bastante polemica) Madeline, tratan de venderte la historia de Circe como un reteling "feminista" y eso normalmente no tendria nada de malo.

el tema es que Circe(en los mitos y por lo que tengo entendido en el libro) no tiene nada de feminista.

digo, es una mujer moralmente gris, eso lo respeto, pero ¿realmente es buena idea usar de ejemplo de "feminista" a una mujer que 1- mato a un hombre que no queria serle infiel a su esposa con ella, 2- convirtio a una ninfa inocente en un MONSTRUO(escilla) solo por un amor no correspondido (otra vez) y 3- en Telogony, después de que Odiseo muere(su supuesto "enamorado", a manos del hijo que tuvieron juntos) ella se casa CON SU OTRO HIJO.

¿¿desde cuando una mujer que pisotea a los hombres o hace daño a otras mujeres por beneficio propio paso a ser "feminista" o "girlboss"??

CON TANTOS OTROS POSIBLES ESCENARIOS PARA HACER RETELINGS DE LA MITOLOGÍA GRIEGA Y DECIDEN IR POR CIRCE?

"PeRo jUlIx ¿¿QuE oTrO eJeMpLo QuIeReS qUe UsEn?? Circe Es sUpEr cOnOcIdA, OBVIamente es mas facil ir por ella"

¿otros ejemplos? veamos:

MEDUSA(viejo clasico, una gran alegoria que sigue funcionando hasta hoy sobre como las victimas de SA son re-victimizadas y culpadas por la gente que deberia protegerlas/no obtienen justicia porque su agresor es mas "relevante" y poderoso que ellas).

PENTESILEA (Reina amazona que peleo en la guerra de Troya, a la cual asistio por estar deprimida al haber matado accidentalmente a sus hermanas, pero no se fue sin matar a decenas de troyanos y pelear con el propio Aquiles. IMAGÍNENSE UN LIBRO SOBRE ELLA).

LAS AMAZONAS EN GENERAL (Tribus de mujeres guerraras hijas de Ares, a las cuales el amaba mucho, que tenian un sistema matriarcal que existia sin hombres, sin competencia, con un gran sentido de hermandad y que participaron en muchos encuentros velicos en la mitología).

HERMÍONE DE ESPARTA Y ANDROMACA(la hija de Helena de Troya y Menelao y la esposa ee Hector de troya respectivamente. ambas se casaron en contra de sus voluntades con Neoptolemo, el hijo de Aquiles, que era abusivo(bastante gráficamente) y lo odiaban. imaginense una historia donde ambas se hacen amigas y se alian para matar a Neo, Hermíone toma el control de Esparta y Andromaca es su segunda al mando).

ATALANTA(La unica mujer de los argonautas que cuando aparecio el jabali magico de calidon fue quien logro lastimarlo primero y se quedo con el trofeo de casa(pero POR ALGUNA RAZON después hay mitos que la matan de la forma mas estupida posible, gracias Afrodita))

en conclusión, demosle el reflector a mujeres griegas que genuinamente merecen que se sepa de ellas❤️(sin titarle Hate a Circe, MERECE SER CONOCIDA, pero no como historia feminista).

[wolfythewitch]

do you uhhh... not like circe?

she's fine, I just don't like the whole telogony thing of telemachus marrying circe and then telegonus marrying penelope lmao

[nerdygirl2023]

Also is son??? Marrying (one) of his eapists??? TF was Eugammons on????

The Telegony is already a shitshow with the character assassination and the marriage circle but the fact that people think Penelope would be down to fucking marry her BELOVED husband's KILLER boggles my mind. The real Penelope would kill Telegonus before ever marrying Eugammon's OC.

[aaronofithaca05]

SPOILER ALERT

This boils my blood.

How could they make the Telegony sounds better than this, how??!

What's your opinion on how Hades 2 handled OdyPen ? Personally, if the snippets are canon and not misleading, I'm very disappointed. I like the games, but they went with the worst possible outcome (Ody being a willing cheater)

Yeah, i'm not really happy with it based on the snippets. I guess we'll see how it all plays out, but so far i'm not a big fan. I believe that pretty much everyone voiced their opinions on it, so i don't think there's much for me to add.

[nerdygirl2023]

A faithful odyssey retelling would mostly be about Telemachus trying to find his dad anyway, so I’m down for that!

so I thought about something last night (my brain smelled like burning plastic)

So you have all these different remakes of the iliad/odyssey (especially odyssey) in film or other forms of media. Which is cool, it focuses on the heroes of those stories. Odyssey is especially focused on bc if I had to take a guess it's more well known than the iliad. People love Odysseus apparently 💪🏼

but what if... what if we had a show (let's say) that followed the adventures of Telemachus? Like after the events of the Odyssey and the Telegony which I still haven't read? What about him? What kind of mischief would Odyssides get into? Things like that.

I really love telemachus I just want to give him his own light ahdjsjdjsjsjssn

[nerdygirl2023]

NO.

Destroy your thinking of is called the telogony it is literally my least favorite thing that Rome ever created. That is in fact not how the Odyssey ends so don’t worry that will not be in the musical

omg the book ends with Odysseus geting killed by his son ....does that mean thats how epic is going to end ..I HOPE NOT 😔😔😔😔😔

[nerdygirl2023]

OMG YES

Telegony? More like the Tele-GONE-y! HAHAahhahahh BE GONE! hahahahah

*gets booed off the stage*