#tbh the struggles of comp het also LOL who knows
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survivoirs · 1 year ago
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Me when one of my muses might not be as gay as originally planned: Ok what pretty girl made you forget how words work?
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etherealkieren · 2 years ago
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Okay so imma be super duper serious about this like a nerd <3
Like yeah i too can understand the trope, and i think it can be done well, but when it’s so much of the, i hate to call it content, but “content”/creation/art/whatever surrounding steve and his sexuality, it can get tiring. 
I also think that like you said it’s often used as a gimmick without taking into account how much it would shake his foundation and sense of self, especially if he was as clueless about his sexuality and identity as he’s being written/characterised. 
Like there’s something about the “haha hes so clueless its so funny” to realisation and a one or two day panic, a week at most, to acceptance, and then as u said gay marriage within a week (lol) that just chafes. 
Like let him experience his own feelings, idk like let him feel doubt and confusion, and fear and joy and freedom, regarding his identity, like let him go on that roller coaster and let it take time. bc understanding yourself isn’t necessarily quick, but that also doesn’t have to mean you are entirely clueless to your own feelings and emotions.
and allow him to have authority of his own identity, No One else can! it’s one of those things that drives me insane, when every other character “knows”, like They Don’t actually!!!
it’s a bit like ppl are portraying the confusion and obliviousness that originates in like internalised homophobia and like comp het but Without actually getting into how that affects someone at all beyond the surface level confusion. and i’m not saying that he has to struggle with it a lot, or all the time, but i think there would be moments of struggle and/or doubt.  maybe that’s informed from my own experiences and all, bc i knew i was probably gay in some way, at the age of like 13, but up until i was 18 i was still very much confused, and even now five years later i still have moments of doubt, especially when i'm not actively crushing on someone lol.
i just think there’s a lot of complexity surrounding those feelings that gets lost sometimes.
and i think that the complexity of it all is interesting, and i think that steve can know what he wants, go after it, and still experience moments of doubt, in himself and his understanding of himself, while also still know himself, it’s a doubt that comes from the outside in a way yk. 
also with robin, yeah! literally had the thought of like, robin i’m pretty sure canonically feels alone in her lgbt identity in hawkins, so like i doubt she has found some huge underground lgbt community in hawkins, like maybe she’s found some books somewhere idk, tbh i think it’s more likely that she’s found books with lgbt subtext than books with lgbt text. and like she can’t drive so she’s not going to indianapolis or wherever to look for other gay people, like before steve who would she go with????
also i find it so sweet when they are p much in the same boat knowledge wise, like they can support each other and be disasters together <3
i do love and appreciate when the assumption is that a crush on a guy is just how everyone feels and like it’s normal or like you just don’t talk about it, but every guy feels that way about other guys, also would be funny if his friendship with tommy supported that idea, but actually it’s just that tommy is also gay lol.
and yeah thinking that being gay is only for other ppl is also something that i can see work v well, i think i read a fic about that actually that was v good <3
i think the reason i like those scenarios more is because it feels more like steve does know his own feelings, it’s just the interpretation of them that he struggles with, and those struggles comes from living in a society and not his intelligence or smth. and like in a way where maybe he thinks he's silly, afterwards when he's figured it out, but the narrative doesn't think he's silly, idk.
also also also! screaming at the whole thing about it flipping his world & sense of self, upside down! like his self esteem being tied to his ability to be a serial dater etc!!! like how realising he is gay totally upends his world, and him having to deal with that and recontextualise himself, and like how he is different and the same, but still different, there is a difference. i love that read with my whole heart <3333
like personally i felt so much more freedom in myself and my self expression after i realised i was lesbian, like my understanding of gender and sexuality has just become so much More afterwards, like it truly has shaped my understanding of the world, and i'm so grateful for it. 
and i just want to see how it could change steve’s perception of the world and himself, and honestly, just steve + queer masculinity!! <3
i also love any read of steve where he is only into men but still allowed to be hurt by nancy’s actions, (& lowkey Any read where he’s allowed to be hurt by her actions) <3
also with robin, yeah! literally had the thought of like, robin i’m pretty sure canonically feels alone in her lgbt identity in hawkins, so like i doubt she has found some huge underground lgbt community in hawkins, like maybe she’s found some books somewhere idk, tbh i think it’s more likely that she’s found books with lgbt subtext than books with lgbt text. and like she can’t drive so she’s not going to indianapolis or wherever to look for other gay people, and like before steve who would she go with????
also i find it so sweet when they are p much in the same boat knowledge wise, like they can support each other and be disasters together <3
also idk this might be off base but, steve being characterised as a clueless lost baby lamb, coupled with the insane feminisation, in like every aspect of his character, reads a bit like infantilisation sometimes…
also i find it so sweet when they are p much in the same boat knowledge wise, like they can support each other and be disasters together <3
idk maybe a big part of the issue is that comedy is harder to write than u might think lol!
also this got LONG oops!
lowkey sometimes when ppl write steve as being entirely oblivious to being gay/into men it feels like an extension of them thinking he's an idiot. idk sometimes there's just weird vibes, like ppl are saying "he's so stupid that he doesn't even understand himself" especially when like everyone else "already knows" because he's being "so obvious."
not always though! and also like i totally get that sexuality & identity can be VERY confusing sometimes (god knows it was for me lol), and i absolutely support ppl who are writing about their own experiences! <3
idk idk...just thoughts lol
honestly i didn't even really think of this in full fruition like that omg ur right... even outside of like writing or anything like, with any characterisation of him.. i dunno UGH people will like absolutely refuse to conceptualise that he is allowed to be an authority of his own identity and isn't some lost baby lamb who needs to have someone tell him what being bisexual or liking men is or something LOL... like i think he knows actually. it just comes off demeaning :( like i understand the trope (?) and i can even see the appeal in it but when it's all that's around it's just like DUDE. especially when poor fucking robin is carted around as the Gay mother i mean Icon who has to tell him everything about everything let alone if it's one of the kids or something 😭 like can we please think for two seconds robin hasn't even SAID the word lesbian do you really think she has in-depth knowledge on what like, flagging is in that specific area of indiana alone. if steve is oblivious to lgbt culture she is ALSO oblivious she didn't get a handbook in the mail just bc she's out to someone now she's probably got like 2 falling apart zines and a library book shoved in a shoebox or something. They're literally performing the age old ritual of whispering in their bedrooms about random shit they overhear to make fun of it and theorising on which celebrities they think are gay Together.
and of course !!! OF COURSE it's totally understandable to choose to portray any sort of hesitance or confusion or anything to do with internalised homophobia, everything that is complicated to do with your own identity which is constantly shifting and changing especially if it's coinciding with big life evolutions and events like steve's is and being able to relate to that OF COURSE and that's not what i (or you obv) mean and i think it could be a really meaningful thing to explore absolutely but honestly and ofc i'm just assuming here ARE people exploring it meaningfully or are they using it as this almost like ? comedic thing?? poor steve oh he's so silly i mean confused i mean Thinks he's straight... like there's no actual gravity there it's just a gimmick to make him look silly 😭. i also love conveniently that funnily enough their little boobies convo was actually steve trying to convince robin vickie DOES like boobies in conjunction with the knowledge that she has a boyfriend and that You Can Like Both and robin is the one who's like noooo she's not GAY she has a BOYFRIEND see. i also think that's so funny steve just goes around telling robin Hey... that girl could be bisexual you never know :) and she's like shut up
i also think the basis of what a lot of the more light hearted side of this . Thing is . is actually still like funny/cute/what ppl r actually meaning to portray, which is like steve not REALISING he has a crush on a guy he just thinks it's normal. or he's going insane or something. and that can be shown in a multitude of ways and not just "he doesn't realise gay people exist" or he doesn't Know about bisexuality. somehow. or that he's dumb. realising u have feelings for someone is such a universal thing :) if anything i think he'd more be like "i know about bisexuals!!!! i love gay people I LOVE GAY PEOPLE!!! i didn't know i could BE ONE!!! I THOUGHT IT WAS ONLY FOR THEM!!" which feels more realistic and is also 100% how i felt when i was younger LOL.
i also just think it's cute if he's like Ugh i fucking hate being around this guy he makes me feel nervous and i don't know what to say and i always can feel all my clothes on every part of my body i think i might hate him :( maybe i'm sick :( like that's so fucking funny + sweet and not tied up in the assumption that he is too stupid to understand anything let alone his own feelings. he is literally one of the most emotionally .. advanced? socially smart people in the ENTIRE show he is incredibly emotionally intelligent especially about himself, i think once he would HAVE a feelings OR identity realisation of some kind he would know exactly what to do just like we've seen in show. he goes for it!!!! he's very very confident romantically!!! he spends like 90% of all his screentime showcasing this i think he's in tune enough with his emotions for ALL OF THIS TO COEXIST...
and that is also possibly now that i think about it why a trope like this is so prevalent bc seeing him be unsure/not confident and flipping his world upside down (lol) or Crisis Occuring is very different for his character and therefore interesting to explore hm.. but when it's shown as something unserious or comedic it becomes unintentionally mocking or just like. painful. ALONG WITH how it seems to be this same old storyline with a clear sighted arc (i'm totally straight -> maybe not -> omg i'm gay -> crisis -> crisis averted -> within one week gay married) when, i think, a lot of the potential interest there IS, for EXAMPLE, exploring how his self esteem is tied into his ability to be a serial dater, which is tied into his appearance and everything that makes him Him, is tied into his own self-projected only "success" in life is getting girls and being good at it. and like, how being unaware that he has his entire life liked a whole other gender and maybe even ONLY that other gender is incredibly disorientating for his own sense of self, the internal battle of having to come to terms with your internal worldview shifting without you being aware (in a way that isn't condescending) and him ultimately realising he is still the same person just PLUS, and is quote unquote allowed to feel the way he does. despite it all. and how opening himself up to this possibility NOW is actually a deeply important thing because he might be realising Oh god, maybe it WAS all some sort of act before now, and then dissecting that THAT isn't true either and genuine emotion does not beget intention, or something. and also how a shift in your identify is not just a bam bam bam 1 2 3 sequence of events and trying to coalesce all that into a 3 score narrative is like potentially recipe for disaster ANYWAY. it's a long complicated process that is 99% behind the scenes and over time and how ALL OF THAT, importantly, coincides with his own character and how HE would act and what choices HE would make because we KNOW how he acts in the face of crisis, of any kind, and we also know the absolute truth of that he deserves to have SOME sort of emotional catharsis and he should be allowed to address his own issues internal or otherwise. and how being gay changes everything but also changes nothing and how hailing himself as a Guy Who Loves, WHOLEY and fully and with everything he's got, does not mean he is an awful person just because the love is different or different NOW or maybe just to the left. but it's all a balancing act i suppose and everyone has their own um. interpretation.
basically yes it's very interesting how steve of all characters gets a certain kind of treatment like this when we know without a shadow of a doubt he is the one who turns up confidentally with roses and the only place he is so confident is with emotion and knowing exactly what he wants. and how interesting it would be to think about a guy like that going through a fundamental shaking of the foundations because what he wants has changed. and even now so long after his split with nancy he is on such uncertain terms with his own like, heart, and he can't seem to trust himself to move on, which is for a REASON. and i don't think that reason is He still fully, properly loves nancy, romantically. i also think it's funny when people do the "everybody knows" thing because that's literally not how anything in life works even a little bit at least with something both below the surface and so intrinsic like IDENTITY like lol if he doesn't know then you don't.
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Update on the therapy stuff so far
So I had my fourth appointment a couple of days ago and I kind of want to make a post about each one but still haven’t actually done it, so...gonna just make a long-ass post now about what it’s been like so far and hopefully I’ll keep up with it in the future. Right now we’re meeting weekly, and I really like her so far! She seems super nice and I feel comfortable talking to her. She doesn’t use a bunch of therapy jargon, platitudes, etc., and something else I really like is that she’s never tries to tell me what/who I am or what I should do? Like, she seems less interested in trying to tell me exactly what my sexuality is and what I should and shouldn’t do, and more interested in helping me figure out what I genuinely want. I can’t remember if this was in the second or third appt, but at one point she said something about how people often talk about how we should take risks and stuff - but it’s also ok if taking risks isn’t what you want. She said you should take risks if that’s what’s best for you personally, but it doesn’t have to be the case for everyone. If I want to try working things out with my bf because of the security of being with someone who I’m compatible with and close to (as opposed to taking the risk of exploring things with women) there’s nothing wrong with that - what we need to do is figure out if that’s truly what will make me happy. Anyway, below are details on the four appointments I’ve had so far:
2/25/20 - The first appt was sort of just a foundational kind of thing - telling her why I’m seeking therapy, some basics about why I’m questioning my sexuality, stuff about leaving religion and when/if I should tell my family about that, etc. We talked a little about compulsory heterosexuality (which I’m familiar with) and she asked me to research it in the next week and see if anything about it applies to me. (She usually gives people “homework assignments” of things to do or think about until the next session).
3/3/20 - We talked about a conversation I had with my dad a few days before about queer people and the Bible. The short version is that he and I started talking about it, I mentioned some of the arguments I’ve heard about why the Bible might not actually condemn homosexuality (without necessarily saying if I agreed with them or not, and definitely not mentioning that I no longer give a fuck about what the Bible says), he basically just said that he doesn’t think those arguments hold up. However, he also doesn’t believe it’s his place to try to decide who’s going to hell and who isn’t, and also that he doesn’t think it makes sense to expect people who don’t believe the Bible is true to follow what it teaches. So in other words, queer Christians are living in sin but he doesn’t think they’re going to hell any more than Christians who struggle with other sins, and there’s no point in telling people to be celibate if they aren’t Christian. He says he wishes he could accept queer people but can’t do it in good conscience, and I believe him - tbh I’m 99% certain he'd be a great ally if not for the fucking Bible. Anyway, we also talked about comp het stuff - the main ones that seem apply to me are liking unattainable men (celebrities, fictional characters, boys who didn’t like me back), never liking the idea of marrying a man (assumed I’d want to eventually), generally liking men that are somewhat “feminine” from a traditional standpoint (long hair, no beards, etc.), and thinking that women are objectively more attractive then men in general. This one is really interesting to me because I feel like I have so few childhood signs of being queer, but I do actually remember thinking this as a teenager. I remember being frustrated that it seemed like there were so few attractive guys but lots of attractive girls, and it was kind of unfair that guys had so many more options. 
3/10/20 - Last week I was supposed to think about the different crushes I’ve had on boys in the past and try to figure out why I was drawn to them. I looked at some old journals to help me remember stuff, which was kind of fun. The first crush I can remember was when I was 9 (fun fact: that guy is apparently now in prison? so I think I dodged a bullet there). The last one was in 2015, possibly through early 2016...so it’s been a while. It was kind of hard to remember how it felt to have a crush on someone, but I do remember it wasn’t too hard to get over them. Like I know I was sad about it when I realized they’d never like me back or whatever, but unless I’m remembering wrong I don’t think I was ever upset for a really long time or anything? I never knew any of the guys very well, and I’m not sure what exactly drew me to them. Mostly just that I thought they were attractive and I just generally felt drawn to them for some reason, but I never had the chance to actually form any kind of emotional connection to them. Another thing we talked about was core values and how they play into making decisions. We tried to pinpoint my top four out of this huge list, which was...kind of difficult, but I ended up with Personal Fulfillment, Kindness, Honesty, and Nature. This week I’m supposed to think about how making different decisions might look based on these core values.  
3/17/20 - We talked about a few different things this time. We went over the core values and how they might work with relationship decisions. At one point I told her about this girl from church youth group at high school I potentially felt attraction to this one time? The problem is I can’t remember it very clearly, but I just remember liking the way she looked and it must have been similar to how I used to feel when looking at cute boys, bc I do remember thinking something along the lines of “well I probably just like her clothes/I’m comparing my body to hers and even if I was somehow a lesbian (which I’m not, lol can you imagine? crazy idea) I would never act on something like that, so it doesn’t matter anyway.” It stands out to me because I can’t remember any other times from when I was younger that I was specifically attracted to a girl - I can just remember a few vague instances with girls I passed by on the street or whatever where I was “comparing myself to another girl’s body.” I also told her about how I’m watching Ocean’s 8 mostly for the eye candy (I felt it was relevant lol). Also we discussed the way I’ve been sort of semi-identifying as lesbian in my head and how I sort of...do little secretive pride things? Like I have a couple of rainbow socks I’ll wear if I’m feeling especially gay one day, etc. Then at the end talked a bit about how, when I’m talking to her about how I feel and verbally processing things, I tend to kind of just barely mention the things I’m anxious about regarding exploring my sexuality and then move onto something else - so she wants me to think about that more this week and try to pinpoint the specific things I’m afraid of. 
Things to think about:
Week 1. Research compulsory heterosexuality and see which things might apply to me.
Week 2. Think about past crushes on guys - what things about them attracted me? How hard were they to get over? lol not very hard
Week 3. Think about core values and how they might play into future decisions, particularly about relationships.
Week 4 (current). Examine/let myself feel anxiety about exploring sexuality - what I am afraid of, specifically?
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