#specifically saying this cause my most recent jennifer art uses that label

[lumiistar]

hey mutuals

just letting you know that if you have the “hide” option on for posts with the community label for “violence”, you won’t be able to see a lot of my jennifer art, since a few of those art have implied violence. just letting ya’ll know since some of you followed me because of her

[dustedmagazine]

Listening Post:  The Fall Singles Box Set

Over nearly four decades, 32 studio albums, around a dozen labels and a dizzying array of line-ups, the Fall has been a source of endless fascination, amusement, irritation, astonishment and enjoyment to a healthy minority of Dusted writers.  Centered around the irascible,unpredictable, absolutely inimitable Mark E. Smith, the Fall has been churning out singles since most of us started buying them, and, unlike other youthful obsessions, continues to do so, right up to the current moment.  So, when we heard that Cherry Red was putting out a massive seven-disc, 117-track singles collection, we were intrigued.  We were also a little daunted.  We decided to listen to it together, or at least at the same time, as much as we could, and talk about it in this listening post. As usual, some of us were long-time fans, others were new to the Fall and a couple were, shall we say, not convinced. Contributors included Jennifer Kelly, Bill Meyer, Justin Cober-Lake, Ben Donnelly, Ian Mathers, Mason Jones, Michael Rosenstein and Marc Medwin.  

Jennifer Kelly:  Hey, so I thought I'd kick this thing off book club style with some discussion questions -- though of course, as in any book club, you are free to ignore the questions and talk about other stuff as long as you don't get too loaded on white wine.  

So how are we feeling about the size and scope of the box set?  I think for the vast majority of people it will seem like a LOT of Fall, but a couple of die-hards in my circle are mad because things are missing.  (One of them owns NINE separate versions of "Hit the North," just to give you an idea of the scope of the thing.)   

The first two discs are, in my view, a pretty superb greatest hits collection (with some caveats because some of their great songs weren't  A sides or even singles).  I knew most of this stuff already, but had never heard the first two ("Bingo Master's Break Out" and "It's the New Thing") and a couple of the others.  I guess I'd vote for "Cruisers Creek" as my favorite of the old favorites, how about you guys?

I'm also struck by how great the Brix years were.  How much impact do we think band members besides MES had on the music, and which were the most important?

Bill Meyer: These are excellent questions and I will get to some of them in the next couple days. “Bingo Masters Breakout” is a singalong song in my house, my wife has been fond of that one since we first heard it c. 1983.  

Crain Scanlon's rhythm guitar and Steve Hanley's bass kept the Fall honest through some pretty grim production decisions in the mid1990s. Hell, Scanlon's hacked up guitar — which was the most battered thing I've seen on stage except for Terrie Ex's guitar — was a totem of humility. It was a sad day when Scanlon figured out how to play anonymous, competent lead guitar. 

Another notion to consider - Over the evolution of the Fall, there have been hard reactions AGAINST the influence of group members. I think that Brix was an antidote to the influence of Marc Riley. The late 1990s resurgence was a response to the departure of Scanlon and Hanley. And the relative anonymity of early 2000s bands was, I think, all about Smith not letting a band have too much ownership of the sound. 

I realize I'm talking about the Fall, not the singles set, but I'll get to that soon

Justin Cober-Lake: Speaking as a casual fan with just a few scattered albums, the size and scope of this box are intimidating and a little perplexing. The Fall have always been prolific and, especially with the lineup changes, it's hard to keep up with them in any sort of knowledgeable way unless you're committed. Getting this many tracks at once is overwhelming. That said, why complain about too much music. This box isn't meant for me (I'd be well served by a two-disc set with a quality essay in the liner notes). But I imagine it's pretty great for the people it's for, unless they have most of this material already. 

 The ideal listener for this set would be someone who knew just enough about the Fall to decide they wanted to jump in all the way, but didn't want to pick up old albums willy-nilly. What you need is here, covering about 25 years of music. Getting through it all in a way that gets me a better understanding of the band has been a challenge; the ability to listen to lots of Fall without repeating stuff has been a treat. I haven't found my era, my lineup or my 45-minute mix, and I doubt that I will, but that says as much about me as it does about the set. 

Bill Meyer: Yeah, this thing is immense. I've been on board the Fall wagon since 1981, and it's still kind of overwhelming, but that is because it is just so big. The Fall has used the single format intensively since about 1978, that's a whole lot of singles. And because they have been around so long, your mileage is likely to vary drastically according to the era.  

Jennifer Kelly: And I've run into a couple of people who find this set entirely insufficient.  

Hard core Fall people are a special breed. 

Justin Cober-Lake: This is maybe starting to shift away from the music, but from a collecting/curating (and marketing) point of view, would this material have benefited from getting, say, three separate boxes, each larger than 1/3 of this one, to get in those various mixes? Would that benefit fans or the sets to be more complete and in chunks, or would that have just served a tiny handful of fans with no real audio benefit. As fun as demos and properly alternate versions are, I've realized I'm seldom interested in hearing the radio edit that's exactly the same but missing three seconds at the end, even for my favorite acts. If this is a set specifically targeting hardcore fans, maybe it's an error not to be truly complete, even if that would have many restructuring how the material was compiled.

Bill Meyer: We definitely want to balance the "why, I was listening to this when I still had my first set of adult teeth!" opinions with some fresh reactions.

Jennifer Kelly: How many sets of teeth have you gone through, Bill?

Ben Donnelly: Mark E Smith has gone through one, at least.

Bill Meyer: That's between me and my dentist. But I did have a conversation recently with a guitarist who has had records on Homestead, Thrill Jockey, and other labels who shared that they are on their second round of implants.  And one thing I wrote about in an earlier Fall review - maybe the Peel Sessions box that I covered for Dusted? - is thinking that I heard Smith take advantage of the looseness of the fit of his plate to get a certain kind of slur.

He had enough left, at least until this past year, to hang his plate on. I gather that the health problems that led to the cancellation of American dates this summer and Euro/UK dates this fall started with a tooth removal that led straight into respiratory problems, which are still keeping him off the stage as of November 2017.

Jennifer Kelly: The last few records have definitely upped the spittle factor.

Bill Meyer: Very true.

Justin Cober-Lake: Maybe as a way to invite new listeners in and to orient our readers, how would some of you more experienced Fall fans recommend approaching this breadth of music? A quick survey of a few tracks of each disc, trying to cover various eras? Put the whole thing on shuffle? Dedicate a few dozen hours to watching the group move through its decades?

 Jennifer Kelly: The first two discs are all the A-sides, so that's a pretty good survey of the best and most listened-to material the band's done.  

I would pick one or two that you like (or hate) and talk about why. 

Bill Meyer: Disc three is A-sides too, beginning in about 1999. I've particularly appreciated it because I stopped getting Fall 7"s a little before the start of disc three, so there are songs or at least mixes that I've never heard. "Theme From Sparta F.C. #2" turns an already punchy song into a proud, rocking anthem. I might never feel that righteous about a football club, but when this song is on I want to. 

The clock restarts with disc four, tracing the history with b-sides. I haven't really digested the more recent stuff, but disc four has songs that stand among their very best. "I'm Into C.B." is masterpiece of building tension with a rumbling groove, shards of guitar, and untouchable lyric about the causes and consequences of mundane obsession. In more recent decades Smith's let himself get away with incomprehensible bluster, but back in the early 80s he was a potent and economical lyricist.  

Per Justin's question, I think that there's no perfect way to collect this music, because the perfect form is the original single. So forget about perfection; the sequence of discs one-three makes unassailable sense and charts the band's progress over time quite handily. It's an incomplete story because some of the Fall's greatest songs are pretty long, and some of their albums benefit perversely from fucked-up antics that don't make it onto a-sides very often (although you'll definitely get the idea of what I'm talking about from "Distilled Mug Art (mix 15)."  

Ben Donnelly: My hints for cracking The Fall, because they are a bowl of nuts with hard shells and lots of bitter pith that requires some work to crack and enjoy.   

Dive in anywhere. The continuities to their sound — twangy garage riffs, glib synthesizer textures — make shuffling through their catalog less jarring than other bands that have passed through these decades. As Justin observes, the material can be scattered, intimidating and perplexing, so popping them out like bingo balls isn't going to violate the intent. One of the cliches about the band that holds up, stated by John Peel: "They are always different; they are always the same." 

The lyrics may seem improvised and stream-of-consciousness, but Mark E Smith is adamant about the work he puts into them. The longer you inhabit his world of language, the more the language starts to click. Here's the lyrics for all the singles, as best as fans could transcribe them:   http://thefall.org/discography/singles.html

 Wire, the other long-running and perpetually creative art-punk band, deconstructs rock —  creating mannerist investigations, commenting on commentary. There's a temptation to draw parallels. But The Fall is not a meta-rock band. They are not deconstructing rock, even if they frequently sound like they're coming apart at the seams. They're just a rock band, dedicated to singles alternating with albums, frequent cover versions of old pop, and the commitment to a line up of guitar, bass, drums and keys. Albums have hooky numbers, experimental digressions, and winding epics, like very mangled versions of Sgt. Pepper's, White Light/White Heat or Station to Station.  

One of the other cliches about the band, stated by Mark E Smith, is "If it's me and yer granny on bongos, it's The Fall." Which implies it's all about MES, but collaboration is key to how he's kept the operation running. I don't think many of the dozens of Fall members would describe him as a generous collaborator exactly, but his method of creation depends on others. You never get unadulterated Mark E Smith. There's always admixture.

Eric McDowell: As an uninitiated Fall listener, it's pretty great to find myself privy to this discussion. I especially appreciate the permission to simply start listening without overthinking it, since my obsessive completism has definitely had me trapped between wanting to hear the whole Fall discography in order and feeling completely overwhelmed at the prospect of undertaking that project.  

To be fair, caving to compulsion, I did start with disc one. So I can only speak to a small part of the collection so far. But what I had somehow underestimated was how damn fun this stuff would be to listen to. Maybe it has more to do with letting go of my usual habits — or the fact that this is a set of singles, without the regulated ups and downs of album arrangement — but to my ears, it's just good listening. Gonna try to keep the baggage at bay while I move on to disc two...   

Bill Meyer: The Fall gained respect with good reason; they had great hooks, a bizarrely compelling singer, and a primitive groove that just would not quit from the get go. No need to lug baggage when you can just pick up on the songs. 

Mason Jones: I've never been a particularly big fan of the Fall despite appreciating the band's accomplishments. The approach has been remarkably consistent despite the changes, as others have mentioned, but somehow that hasn't resulted in the band sounding dated, which almost seems like an impossibility. Perhaps the primitivism that Bill mentions is partly responsible: when you start from a compellingly simple (yet so hard to get right) premise, layer on MES's uniqueness, and just run with it, there's no place to go except straight ahead. Yet a lot of bands have tried the idea of "don't mess with a good thing" and wound up left behind as times change. It doesn't feel like that's happened to the Fall, which is a bit mysterious. With all of these singles laid out now, perhaps their path will show itself, but I'm not so sure...

Justin Cober-Lake: Ben's points are very helpful here, and I think the Peel quote is spot-on. Fans and reviewers tend to talk in terms of the changes between albums or lineups, but it's that continuity of central focus that stands out. Listening to everything in order as presented by the box does start to highlight the overarching view. Going from one era of the Fall to another is far less jarring (or even noticeable) than going from, say, The Clash to Sandinista to Combat Rock. The MES Granny Bongos album isn't exactly Elvis Costello genre experimentation (and that's neither criticism nor praise). 

May as another way to get into things (and if this is derailing or tangential, feel free to delete/ignore and move on), imagine someone came to you and said, "So, the Fall is your favorite band? What should I listen to to understand why?" Is something like, "the first disc of this set" a reasonable answer? Is this a band that fans fell for instantly or did it take a lengthy of singles and albums for something to cohere? 

To be fair, anyone would answer similar questions with, "To get [my favorite band], you need to hear these songs, but don't forget how to this entire album fits in, and you only see what's really going on if you see the late stuff over here...." Some bands can be reasonably well captured by a single-disc "best of". Would that approach reveal the essentials of the Fall?

Jennifer Kelly: I think the first disc is a reasonable answer.  However, as Bill mentioned, these are singles and as a result, at least for the Fall, relatively tight, cohesive statements.  You don't get into the squirrelly bits as much (though they're there), and there are none of the long hallucinatory cuts that are also very representative of this band.  (For an example of this, I'd start with "Hip Priest.") 

The things I like about the Fall, more or less in order.  

The tight, rhythmic underpinning.  Whatever granny was playing on her bongos really moves, bass is almost always awesome, too.

The weird way of incorporating whatever's passing through musically -- punk, post-punk, pop, electro-clash, dance, rockabilly, literally anything, into an aesthetic that is completely recognizable as the Fall.

And in a similar sense, the lyrics, which weave so many cultural references in that listening to these discs is like an oral history, at least of the silly parts of the last 30 or 40 years.  

M.E.S.'s spectacular disdain, his ornery-ness, his willingness to bite the hand that feeds him, see "500 Bottle of Wine"  

I find myself laughing out loud about once every three tracks, because the Fall is just such a pisser, willing to say and play any god-damn thing, but completely what it is, regardless.  

Justin Cober-Lake: Just after I read this note, I laughed at "Marquis Cha Cha," and then realized that's probably a great example of what I like in the Fall, or what I would like if dug deeper and was more familiar. The track has a surprising groove to it, just hinting at a relevant globalism. Smith has some wry lyrics, and at least one moment that's genuinely funny ("You educated kids know what you're on about / You've been oppressed for years"), all of which disguises the song's disturbing elements. It feels particularly Fall-y to me, or at least does the things the Fall does that Jenny describes as the four things she likes about them.

Ben Donnelly: I was going to suggest the one with "Hip Priest" as well, Hex Enduction Hour, in part because they way "Hip Priest" was worked into the end of Silence of the Lambs makes it slightly familiar to most people, making it an example of the oddest aspects of The Fall planted deep in popular culture. But there's a whole bunch of good answers here, and I was content for a long time with owning one album (Bend Sinister) and one singles compilation (458489 A Sides). 

 My favorite LPs would be Hex, This Nations Saving Grace, The Unutterable, The Real New Fall Album.  

Ian Mathers: I haven't had time to get too much into this yet, but I do think the first 1 or 2 (or even 3, if you've got time and patience) discs make for a decent intro, although I might still direct budget conscious listeners to the two-disc 50,000 Fall Fans Can't Be Wrong: 39 Golden Greats compilation, which was the first time anything even approaching wide-ranging/definitive enough came out. But I honestly feel that, unlike most bands I like, nearly anything can be a good intro. To date myself a little, I read about the Fall long before I was able to find any of their work in stores (primitively enough, the only way I would have been able to hear them at the time). And even then, although I'd check every music store I went to for them, there wouldn't even be a title card for the Fall. Then one day one of those dodgy CD resellers that haunts university campuses showed up at my school with exactly one, battered, garish Fall CD in stock: 1992's Code: Selfish, represented here by the great political/dance-rock doggerel of "Free Range", track 13 of disc 2. It is not at all a terribly representative record for the band, but it's all I had to listen to and even though no other opening track of theirs sounds like a bunch of church bells tossed in a bin and chucked down the stairs (love you, "The Birmingham School of Business School") by the time music became more, err, accessible (and I moved to a place with better stores) I still felt prepared for the vast sprawl of their oeuvre. And now, in retrospect, I feel like I could have started from the grottiest, earliest singles here, or the bilious pomp of something like "Hip Priest", and been just as well prepared.  

And by prepared I mean both that the Fall's work seems in some way to be holographic - any small chip off the ol' block somehow recapitulates the whole - and that I kind of knew I was going to love pretty much all of it. There are some dodgy/crappy Fall releases out there, but I'm still basically/theoretically on board, or at least would rather listen to that than many other outfits. This box represents a mammoth investment of time, but for me it pays you back immensely - not everyone needs (to take some semi-random examples) "I'm Into C.B.", "No Bulbs", "Blood Outta Stone", or "I Wake Up in the City" in their life but I feel richer for it.  

To answer one of the questions Jenny asked earlier, probably my favourite of the old singles on those first discs is actually the first Fall song I ever heard and the only one I had the chance to hear before Code: Selfish, when I stumbled onto the video for "Hit the North" on TV.

I just love that farty synth bass/horn sound, and all the screaming. Really! And this also ties into the question of collaboration, because as much as I've liked songs from across the length and breadth of their music plenty of the people in the "Hit the North" video (and a few others) make up the core of what I'm always going to (unfairly?) think of as the "real" or "true" Fall, not just MES (a singular figure, and more on that in a minute) but Brix, Steve Hanley, Craig Scanlon, and Paul Hanley. In some ways this idea is a mirage, in multiple senses; not only are there others who contributed to albums during this period (Marc Riley, Simons Rogers and Wolstencroft, Karl Burns, special shout out to Dave Bush, later of Elastica, for his work on my beloved Code: Selfish), and not only is is doubtful how long that group of people actually worked as a functional unit and not only is the current lineup (who all joined in 2006) the longest-serving stable incarnation, the fact still remains that in not just the music but the pictures and videos I was able to find as a younger person getting into the band they're who I think of as the Fall. The "granny on bongos" comment is absolutely true for better and worse, but one of Smith's undeniable talents is in putting together good bands (or else he's just obscenely lucky). Yes, with almost any other vocalist many of these songs would be worse off, and it's the alchemy between MES as a sui generis front man and the music that makes the Fall what they are, but often thinking about the band mostly begins and ends with the front. 

With one already-oft-mentioned exception, I'm sure my favorite Fall LPs are pretty conventional within the world of Fall fans (no order):

Code: Selfish, Hex Enduction Hour (remove that pointless racial slur up top and this is basically perfect), The Wonderful and Frightening World Of... (the 16-track North American CD version with all the bonus tracks...), This Nation's Saving Grace ("Paint Work" might secretly be my favorite Fall song), and Bend Sinister.

 As for MES: Here's someone who on the one hand is probably one of the best front man of his era/generation, often super compelling when singing. And on the other hand it's impossible not to notice that he seems deeply unpleasant, has been accused of and/or gotten in legal trouble for domestic abuse, bullying, racism, alcholism, assault, etc. and none of its really ever made very much headway (although with him ailing recently, if we are witnessing the end of the era I wonder what kind of dam is going to break in the wake of his passing, whenever that happens). I fell in love with the Fall, and heard album after album, long before I heard of anything worse from Smith than just eccentricities, and while I admit these things are a big part of why I don't think I'd buy a concert ticket or provide other direct financial support in the future, this is a case where I seem to be unwilling to ditch the work (as opposed to my inability to listen to Swans in recent years, my complete lack of interest in revisiting Louis CK's work, etc etc.). You can find recent interviews with, for example, Brix where she doesn't shy away from describing unacceptable, abusive behaviour by Smith to her and others, but she also seems to love the band and her work with the band and doesn't seem to want anyone to stop listening.  

It's something I certainly wish wasn't true and something I won't defend, and it definitely has changed how and when I recommend the Fall to others, but ultimately aside from really blatant moments like wincing at "The Classical" it hasn't necessarily stopped me from listening myself.  

Bill Meyer: Yeah, MES comes across as deeply unpleasant, and for that reason I have not so far read any of the Fall books. It's interesting to note that people he has mistreated come back and work with him again. Prime example - his ex-wife Brix re-joined the band in the mid-1990s. I saw them then and she wasn't just a hired hand, she brought more energy to the performance of what I consider some of their more problematic material than he did. Smith is like David Thomas, Lou Reed, Charles Mingus, and Miles Davis, to name a few other bandleaders who have treated their collaborators terribly only to have those people come back and play with them again, in this respect: they can know they are being treated badly, and feel very bad about it, but also know that they are part of something singular and great. They come back to be part of that thing, and they make it great by participating. When things fall out of sync (the first album after Marc Riley left, the last album with Brix before the divorce, the last records with Scanlon/Hanley, Reformation post-TLC) you get records that are weaker than the songs that make them up.

Michael Rosenstein:  I am just slightly scratching the surface here and find it all disorienting in so many ways. It is just not the way I am used to listening to music and not the music I am used to listening to. Sure I've heard about the Fall, but never, as far as I can remember, consciously listened to anything of theirs. My thoughts are based on a super-cursory listen which is really about all this musters for me. That is absolutely all about me and my musical tastes and not at all about the music. The first disc seems to stick the most with me, but really only because it sounds like what I expected them to sound like. It sounds very much stuck in the late 70s early 80s post-punk music that I have a passing familiarity with (The Slits, Pop Group/Rip Rig and Panic, Gang of Four ("Peel Sessions" or "Entertainment",...) though certainly messier than Wire. It hits all the tropes I would expect and does so with a shambolic energy that is passingly engaging. But by the time they are hitting the late 80s, they've lost me altogether. (The old man in me is starting to think "this all kind of sounds the same") and spot checking the third disc is a bit of a slog.  

It has made me think about how singles functioned in the late 1970s/1980s in particular, something that just wasn't on my radar because of what I was listening to at the time. I've been talking to friends who were grabbing these as they came out, searching out singles because that was the only way to get a glimpse of this kind of stuff in the US. That notion of the hard search for music being leaked out in small doses is SO different than how people listen now.  

In the end, this is an intriguing listening exercise for me but nothing jumps out enough to entice me to really dig in more deeply. I am absolutely not the audience for this box, and really wouldn't even be the audience for a single-CD very, very, very best of comp. Now back to looking out my window watching the snow and digging very deeply in to John Cage's "Winter Music" which is totally my jam.  

Jennifer Kelly: I think it's important that we are able to disagree civilly -- and I do disagree with almost everything in your post -- and I imagine we have some readers who do not like the Fall.  

The main risk is that MES reads your post and incorporates it into some sort of a song later, a la "Portugal."  

Mason Jones: I agree, I think if we can dig into more detail, this could be a valuable and interesting inclusion. I think I agree with some of your thoughts, and not others, since I'm not a Fall fan but do enjoy parts of the catalog.  

Bill Meyer: I certainly appreciate the inclusion of non-partisan and skeptical perspectives. The point about how people received music in the heyday of indie singles vs how they access music now - and also how the potential consumers of 7 CD archival boxes relate to other dominant modes of music consumption- that's best discussed when I am not typing with a thumb. Maybe later or maybe you can all take it past me.   

Michael Rosenstein: I’d be curious to understand the parts you disagree with. My comments are so casually subjective based on a cursory listen to music totally outside my wheelhouse. My guess is that any “disagreement” would be rooted in the fact that I did some lazy listening (which I completely agree with.)

Jennifer Kelly: Well for instance, comparing the Fall to the Slits.  The two bands sound completely different.  There's a lot of reggae in the Slits, for instance, and next to none in the Fall.  

Or the Pop Group, again, completely different thing, lots more chaotic and less rhythmic.   

Gang of Four, okay, maybe at the most superficial level, though if you listen to this stuff seriously that would be like saying that blue is sort of like green.  To me, they're both primary colors.   (Ed note: Jennifer Kelly is apparently not aware that green is NOT a primary color.)  

 Also yes, the Fall did seem to get looser and more distended as the years went on, but I would never attach the word "shambolic" to something as boxed in and paranoiac and just mental as later fall.  Shambolic, to me, means trippy and open-ended and accepting of whatever the path leads to, which is not a quality I would associate with the Fall at all.

 Michael Rosenstein: Got it. Yeah. That was incredibly lazy on my part and has everything to do my admittedly limited listening in this area. It is exactly the same as someone with minimal exposure to free jazz piano playing saying that some pianist reminds them of Cecil Taylor and Sun Ra (who have almost nothing, stylistically to do with each other). When I say that this is what I was expecting to hear, I only meant that it fit in the tiny little box that I have for that kind of listening.  

These are the concerns I have in having my comments included other than really saying that I took a listen, wasn't won over, and went back to my wheelhouse. Which really just proves my narrow listening habits more than anything else.  

Bill Meyer: But the Fall did record in the same or similarly appointed studios, worked with similar gear. Part of the sound we associated with late 70s post-punk has to do with gear and studio technique (or lack there-of), and the early Fall stuff shares the same cheap amps, cheap guitars, and cardboard-y drum sounds as a lot of other inexpensively recorded post-punk. What do you think, Michael, are you hearing that sound rather than genre elements?  

Michael Rosenstein: Thanks Bill - That gets to where I was going a lot more clearly. When I said:

The first disc seems to stick the most with me, but really only because it sounds like what I expected them to sound like. It sounds very much stuck in the late 1970s early 1980s post-punk music that I have a passing familiarity with

I was talking much less about stylistic synergies than about an overall sound. This for me is more about setting context than it is about any notion of "this sounds like that." There is a boomy quality and evenness of sonic field (with all of the instruments playing equally within the mix) that jumps out. While the way the groups operate are stylistically distinct, and the densities of sound are very different, listening to the way that the mix operates on something like Rip Rig and Panic's "Knee Deep In Shit" sets me up to hear "Roche Rumble."

 I'll stick with this:

But by the time they are hitting the late 1980s, they've lost me altogether. (The old man in me is starting to think "this all kind of sounds the same") and spot checking the third disc is a bit of a slog.

Jenny, it is interesting to hear you talk about them getting "looser and more distended". In thinking it through, maybe a better response to the earlier stuff for me is that I hear a rawness in it that isn't quite there for me in the VERY limited spot checking of the later stuff.

 Marc Medwin: OK, I was half thinking of not getting involved at all, OK, more than half, but a toe in the water:

I expected to hate this stuff.  I'm only listening to disc 1 now.  I'm smiling, grinning actually.  For me, the band that comes to mind is the Adverts, maybe it's already been discussed and not really that close at all, I haven't read back through all of these posts yet.  I find the keyboard hook on "It's the New Thing" absolutely irresistible!  

Just a quick bit of context: So far, my favorite song by the Fall has been “Pat-Trip Dispenser,” which, once I get it in my head, I find myself singing all day long, growling it in the shower, I think the lyrics are pure earthy genius!  From what I'm hearing now, I have a hell of a lot of catching up to do!!  

Jennifer Kelly: I've hit the last two discs this week, which admittedly, are not as fun as the first three, but I've been mesmerized by "Hittite Man," lately, and in looking up the lyrics, found this pretty amazing site called The Annotated Fall.  http://annotatedfall.doomby.com/