#sortingtheslayers

[thelongestway]

Not to comment on something you posted over a year ago, but based on my impressions of the SHC system I think Rezo would, like Zel, also be a Lion/Bird (albeit I am basing this partly on his Revo/Evo-R characterization as well as his Slayers Prime characterization.)

Ha! Long-term engagement is fantastic, so thank you for asking! Let me do A Take on this - but I don't remember Revo/Evo nearly as well, so if you've got something to add from that point, please do!

Rezo the Red Priest, one of the primary antagonists in Slayers, is an interesting case - the Lion Primary is certainly there! That single-minded devotion to curing his own eyesight has A LOT in common with how Zelgadis wants to cure his body. Actually, I think it's fairly safe to say that Zel probably copies his way of dealing from the one adult in his life. However, as far as Secondaries go... There are indeed points to be made for Bird. The sheer breadth of his knowledge - this is a man who goes on to master all the known types of magic to cure his ailment. But there's something to it that's more than tools. Rezo's... I want to say, expansive and systematic in a way few Bird secondaries ever reach, and he is also more nose-to-the-grindstone about it. Where Zelgadis picks up relevant tricks of the trade, Rezo just goes "well, if anything can fix this, it's magic." And he learns everything about magic. Not just what he thinks he needs to. He learns everything.

And the social side of how he works! Even though he doesn't really care for other people's blindness - at least at the point we see him in the first season of the anime - he acquires a reputation as one of the kindest mages, who goes on to heal other people in droves. It's this interesting combination - Rezo doesn't care about other people; but he also... Doesn't lie about his capabilities. He doesn't make up a Persona, the way Zel perhaps would have ("heartless swordsman!") Instead, he lets people project onto him and becomes what they need; he uses them for his own purposes but in a way that they are glad to be used.

He also doesn't keep people around for specific purposes. Bird secondaries have contacts; Rezo has minions and likely more than a few people who owe him their life and health. Even though he, too, has a lonely, ultimately selfish cause, he is enmeshed into Community to an extent Zelgadis would be terrified by.

And the way Zel gets through to him, when fighting Shabranigdo! "Do you really wish to destroy the world you wanted to see so much?" While I wrote earlier that Zel appeals to an Idealist morality here - and I think he does, Lion to Lion - I do think that this appeal also stirred the Badger, which is by its nature very global.

When Zel succeeds, Rezo doesn't bring down Shabranigdo from the inside. He holds him off. Endures. Just enough for Lina to do her thing.

This could be a Bird Secondary... But I think that's a Badger Secondary. In her description of the SHC archetypes, @wisteria-lodge calls the Lion/Badger "The Lynchpin", and notes how they are often the center of a wheel, and the center of events. Rezo would be an unusually non-group oriented Lynchpin - perhaps because we see him at a very desperate point - but the sheer amount of Things revolving around him certainly fits the bill. Also, the Lynchpin is a very common "Sleeper Villain" sorting, and what is Rezo if not that.

Tl;dr: the original Rezo, I think, is a Lion/Badger. Kopii-kun, on the other hand...

[thelongestway]

re: Copy Rezo and SHC- my current guess for him would be Lion/Lion. Mr. "Only I can vindicate my existence. By beating all of you to death with my bare hands."

This actually looks like a pretty good version! I agree.

Kopii is just... So damned young. And while both Lion and Badger secondaries are "you move", and have this whole very direct energy, and maybe he could have grown into the original's Badger...

He doesn't. There is no time. There is no community. There is only Eris to learn from - who is such a Snake/Lion: her person is Rezo, and she follows him. When Rezo is a priest, she is a shrine maiden; when he dies, she brings him back. And Kopii Rezo learns. And he kills her. And he charges and dies. Kopii Rezo is a Double Lion, there is little room for doubt.

[thelongestway]

Sorting The Slayers: Lina Inverse (Bird Primary/Lion Secondary)

While on the surface The Slayers is a comedy, it's not one of my favorite shows of all time because of the fun. It's one of my favorite shows because, despite all the slapstick, it's very Bird fun. And this is because the main character, Lina Inverse, known as the Enemy of All Who Live and the one Dragons Step Past Out of Clear Revulsion, is a Bird Primary. Admittedly, that Bird has basically built a Lion-flavored system ("No rights for the wicked!") and has a LOUD Lion Secondary. But in her heart of hearts, Lina Inverse is a Bird, and the Slayers, centered on her as it is, is a Bird/Lion show (and also why the later seasons are sad: they completely lose the Bird). To get at Lina's Primary, you have to pay attention to how she fights. While she talks up a big game about "yup, one spell and you're DEAD", in reality she chooses her fights. She takes the higher ground, she chooses the right spell for the right situation (and has an absolutely dizzying array - it's not just the Dragon Slave), and she is incredibly inventive. When she has no magic and has to face up against an augmented mage that is her equal in spell level, she holds him off for a good few minutes with nothing but a Light cantrip, using it as a distraction and as a dispel for a shadow-based spell. She has a tactical teleport (which she only used once, as it's situational), all sorts of elemental spells, and a bunch of her own creations, which she uses to good effect. Even her Charging is incredibly Bird-flavored. When she gets locked into chains that electrocute her whenever she casts, and her partner says "Well, you can't use magic and they took my sword, what can we do?" Lina goes: "No, it's not that I can't cast. It's that it hurts to cast. That's different". And then she casts through the pain. This is her common pattern: Lina assays the situation and then turns on Lion mode to Deal With It (or, when the situation calls for less destruction and more thought, she also has a fun Actor Bird Mode she uses. "I am a merchant's daughter, after all"; "Oh wait, the heroine is supposed to be all shrieky here!") Lina also has a robust set of rules she follows. "No casting spells that give me nightmares" - and after using an incredibly effective spell that rips trolls to threads, she never uses it again. When Amelia, who at the very least models a loud Lion primary (need to rewatch to see what's under that, because she and Phil have a lot of trauma going on), asks her to teach the most powerful widely-known spell in all Black magic, Lina instantly imagines Amelia blasting someone who found a coin with it and basically starts stalling for time (instead of just going "nope"). When pressed, she snaps: "The most powerful spell in the world is useless if you don't know when and where to use it!" And yes - when deciding to risk destroying the world to save a person she loves, she DECIDES to take that risk. It's a question she grapples with and makes her decision. Lina's Secondary is basically how she's coded as a character (redhead with red eyes, come on, you can't get more aggressive visually). Lina obviously enjoys just blowing things to oblivion, going in to deal with things, and generally enjoying the limelight. Her secondary is in her iconic speech: "Where monsters rampage, I'm there to take them down! Where treasure glitters, I'm there to claim it. Where an enemy rises to face me, victory WILL BE MINE!" And she means it. When the men on her team go "we're going to die but we must fight," Lina goes "nope. I'm fighting to win." Not because that's a gut feeling (although she values her gut highly - her Bird has basically built her a Lion system), but because "if you take that attitude, your chances will be zero." All in all, Lina's a surprisingly healthy character when it comes to both Primary and Secondary. Her Bird is well-developed and serves her well, and her Lion, very powerful and fun, is not at all out of control - instead, it's carefully guided by her Bird.

[thelongestway]

Sorting the Slayers: Gourry Gabriev (Initially Burnt Snake Primary (Badger Model)/Snake Secondary)

Sorting Gourry Gabriev (spoiler - he is the chillest Double Snake ever) was difficult for two reasons, one for the Primary, one for the Secondary. First, Gourry's Primary starts out Burnt, even though it's not obvious. Gourry's family continuously fought over the artifact Gourry now carries - the Sword of Light, so he left them and at the start of the show he's just... Drifting and emulating his idea of a noble swordsman - which, tellingly, isn't Idealist (no ideals of Knighthood or Chivalry, even though they are very present in the universe, see bands of would-be heroes), but Loyalist. At the start, Gourry basically presents as a Badger, instantly taking charge of Lina while completely missing that she didn't really need to be taken charge of (for like the first 10 minutes). Notably, the moment Lina shows her true colors, Gourry adapts - just as instantly he begins treating her as an equal. There's no denial, not even a moment of resistance. You change - I change. Another point in favor of Snake Primary is that while Gourry displays a basic level of empathy - he is generally down to help people and is the epitome of Neutral Good - he's just... Not that interested in people outside of his circle. Yeah, he'll be decent to them. Sure. But those he really cares about are right here, and the rest of the world just isn't as important. He sticks by his own through thick and thin. And as the show progresses, Gourry's Snake begins to Unburn through his relationship with Lina - whose toes he never steps on. He is always adapting to her, and is perfectly happy with that, and stays in his own brand of Neutral the rest of the time. For Secondary, the difficult part is that Gourry is the emblematic low Int/high Wis D&D character, which makes it hard to identify a preference for methods. While often presenting as Dumb, Gourry is nevertheless keenly observant, identifying Xellos as a Mazoku well before the rest of the team (mages all!) and Word of God has it that if he had the intellect, he'd be a mage easily as powerful as Lina... But he doesn't. And he doesn't need it to feel good in his skin. He's neither a Bird nor a Badger. He doesn't take pride in working smart or working hard. He's not a Lion, either: he doesn't take the direct way just because he can. Instead, Gourry Gabriev is the chillest Snake Secondary ever. He follows His Person and just takes in life as it comes, rolling with the punches. He fights by observing the enemy and reacting, and he's perfectly happy while His Person is happy. While Gourry doesn't really have masks, he does very consciously allow people to project on him, playing up the stupidity just a little bit, very subtly. He also much more comfortable with the various role-taking hijinks that the crew sometimes gets up than the rest of the team. Unlike a Badger, he doesn't really have to become those things, even though that's sometimes played up for fun - it's very much "that's a presentation", even when he is spouting stock dialogue like "I have no name to give to the likes of you." It's very much not a "I have to believe this myself" vibe. Gourry Gabriev is a "live and let live" grass snake, and he is perfectly fine with that.

[thelongestway]

Sorting the Slayers: Amelia Wil Tesla Seyrun (Lion Primary/Badger Secondary)

Amelia's probably the hardest sorting of the bunch, simply because she models so loudly. Idealizing her father, Amelia picks up his Lion Primary political performance and takes that as a Model. She also absorbs his values of community building and hard work - and Models Badger for her Secondary. However, underneath all that... She really is a Lion/Badger herself, even if she's immature at the start and has to rely on the picture her father built for the details - which she, being a Lion, takes completely literally, even where her father sees it as an Actor Bird performance in service of the Good. As the show progresses, both her Primary and Secondary mature, and she becomes a formidable force, helping keep the group on track. Without Amelia, Lina and Gourry are one unit; Zelgadis is another. With Amelia, they're The Slayers. With respect to Primary, early Amelia sees everything in black and white and uses every opportunity at her disposal to battle the forces of Evil. Her performance of her primary borders on caricature, what with the climbing trees and faceplanting from them, but Amelia's initially just too young - and traumatized by her Cutthroat Snake environment, so she performs extra hard. The sheer loudness of her performance makes even Lina with her Lion system blanch, and it's notable how she immediately flips into "use your HEAD mode" when faced with an actual young Lion. To Amelia's credit, she learns, and her Lion becomes more about doing the Right Thing rather than Performing The Right Role, and is soon tempered by her Secondary, which she shares with her father. Yet even when she is sorely tested - for example by her father's apparent death - she doesn't waver. She is hurt, but she doesn't waver. Her morality comes from the inside, even if she learned her mode of expression externally. Her immature Badger Secondary is something else, though! Only a very young Badger Secondary would hear "if you want to study under me, let's start with a thousand squats" and think "well, if I want this, I have to work hard" - and just... Get to it, no questions asked. Amelia works hard in living up to her ideal - she is never idle, always toiling. As the show progresses, Amelia learns Courtier skills, and by the end of Next she is the person who will smooth over any waves The Slayers make, or the one who will ask the locals for information and actually get it. Like most characters in this series so far, it's her Secondary that shines and defines her as she grows rather than her Primary. Her Lion's idealism and desire to be an Ally of Justice moves to the background, although it's always there, and is replaced by a more mature concern for the actual wellbeing of her communities, and she directs her Lion towards that goal. By the end of the series, we don't see her get any crowning moments that would signify she has come fully into her own - but Amelia is well on her way there. Ironically, the better she gets, the less flashy she becomes. With this sorting, it's little wonder Phil likes Zelgadis to hang around Amelia - he recognizes the two Lions, but also thinks they're good for each other, Zel's Bird tempering Amelia's enthusiasm, and Amelia's Badger taking care of Zel, who doesn't have a community.

[thelongestway]

Sorting the Slayers: Zelgadis Greywords (Lion Primary/Bird Secondary)

Let's get the easy sortings out of the way, because Gourry and Amelia are a lot more complicated. :P Did I say Slayers was a Bird/Lion show? I said it was a Bird/Lion show! But with a switch. The blue-colored, taciturnly-coded Zelgadis Greywords is, in fact, a Lion Primary (although the more obvious Bird Secondary is as strong in him as Lina's Lion Secondary is in her). Zelgadis is the surliest Lion Primary you'll ever meet. He latches on to an idea - initially becoming strong, then getting his old body back - and follows that idea with a singlemindedness bordering on fanaticism and with an early disregard for the consequences. This gets him into his main predicament - he jumps into the contract with Rezo without thinking. But notably, he doesn't change his main tactic - he only changes direction, pursuing a new body with the same instant and singleminded relentlessness. Zelgadis is the only member of the team who repeatedly considers turning on his friends if he feels they're getting in his way (and is just as quick to turn on employers or whoever he sees as an interference). He's just as happy going off on his own as he is working with the group - and it's no surprise that a lot of the time the group gets dragged into his quest, as none of the others have that kind of determination! Relationships become more important to him as the show goes on, but they never become his defining feature. What defines him is his idea, which is unusually narrow for a Lion, but it's there. What's interesting is how his hang-up on turning his body back to normal is really very Lion. Zelgadis doesn't like to be something someone made him into. Another Sorting could have perhaps made peace with a new body, in time. Zelgadis, while he recognizes its advantages, does not. The fact that his body is basically a brand repulses him so much that he is willing to give up the considerable advantages it gives him. When his Lion is triggered for something that's not his narrow idea, such as the fight against Shabranigdu, Zelgadis is very much "it has to be done, consequences be damned." But that situation is literally in the singular. Most of the time he follows his internal compass, and that compass says "I want to be who I want to be, not who someone else defined, end of story." Even when he calls out to Rezo, possessed by Shabranigdu, he screams "Do you want to destroy the world you gave so much to see?", appealing an Idealist morality. As for Secondaries go, in dealing with the world Zelgadis is anything but flexible (just see him basically get completely lost in any of the slapstick episodes - he can't keep up, can't find clever solutions that he hasn't prepared for), so Snake and Badger go right out the window, leaving Lion and Bird. Instead of barging into a situation, though, he usually has an array of tricks - he's easily as skilled as Lina in as wide a variety of areas, from safe cracking to guitar playing. He uses them casually, without drawing much attention to his tools - they're just there, and they come easy to him, and he makes a point of doing his research and maintaining his repertoire. He even has exactly one Actor Bird persona - "heartless swordsman". Everything else his Lion deems superfluous. Zelgadis shows the same kind of flexibility in spellwork and fighting that Lina does: creating a bubble of oxygen in the water for a fire spell, or leaving himself open to break an opponent's sword. However, the two are a great example of the difference between a Bird Primary and a Bird Secondary. Despite playing up (and valuing!) her Lion determination, Lina's whole modus operandi is based around understanding the situation. It's who she is, not what she uses. Zelgadis' use of his Bird is just that: use. It's his preferred method, not who he is. He'd happily give up all his tools to reach his goal (which he, if he ever completes his endgame, will actually have to do, as the body gives him spell capacity and physical power). And then he'll find new tools for a new purpose, because that's what a Lion/Bird does.

[thelongestway]

Sorting the Slayers: Xellos Metallium (Lion Primary/Snake Secondary)

The Trickster Priest Xellos is an obvious but unusual sorting that shows how interestingly the SHC system interacts with worlds where morality can be implanted into a creature at creation. Xellos is a Lion/Snake, even as he is - again, like most characters in this show - visibly characterized by his Secondary over his Primary. Xellos is a Lion by virtue of being made with an internal morality system in mind - and the fact that this system is "we serve ruin and destruction and feed on humans' suffering" does not make it any less of an internal morality system that he never had the option to construct himself and which he has to adhere to. He doesn't have the option to be a Loyalist at all; it's incompatible with Mazoku existence. Xellos has his choice of maneuver where it comes to Secondary, as do the rest of the Mazoku. But within the confines of the SHC system, all known Mazoku are Lion Primaries. Gaav could have become an exception, with his mortality shenanigans and all, but Gaav is just a Lion at heart, so in practice there aren't any. Xellos's Secondary is also very obvious. He's a Snake, through and through, classic Snake presentation. He might have some Bird in him, but he's far too comfortable with surprises and contingencies, weaving along them as smoothly as any snake. He doesn't usually prepare - he comes in and sees, he doesn't have to believe the lie, and while he is very powerful when he fights directly, that is not his choice of method. Snake. Xellos has multiple masks, but easily discards them in service of his Primary when necessary. At the end of it, like with all Mazoku, there is a very toothy Lion maw and it will eat you. Good character, but not much to say system-wise. This concludes the series for now - I barely remember TRY, and I heavily disliked Evolution-R and Revolution, as they doubled down on the Secondaries and completely lost the cool undercurrent of Primaries for the human characters.

[thelongestway]

Sorting the Slayers: Philionel El Di Seyrun (Bird Primary /Badger Secondary)

To talk about the fourth core member of the Slayers team, Amelia Wil Tesla Seyrun, one first has to talk about her father, the Crown Prince of Seyrun, Philionel, and he is interesting enough to deserve his own post, being a rare Bird/Badger. Amelia and Phil's story is defined by trauma. The ruling family of Seyrun is mostly decimated due to in-fighting - as in, Amelia's mother and all of Phil's siblings died in various assassination attempts, some as assassins, some as victims. In short, the environment in the Seyrun aristocracy is stereotypical Cutthroat Snake. And the person who survived it all (two assassination attempts on-screen only!) and holds the kingdom together is a Bird Primary with a Lion Primary performance and a Badger Secondary. Philionel El Di Seyruun, who looks like a bandit even when he wears a white noble's outfit, has, underneath that veneer, an Idealist morality. At first glance, he almost looks like a Lion with his talk of promoting justice and vanquishing evildoers, and Philionel might actually model Lion for purposes of state presentation, although mostly he just has to inhabit his Badger Secondary. But the Lion veneer doesn't add up. Like Lina, Philionel is much more careful under the presentation than he makes himself out to be in public. Even as he works to make Seyrun safe for everyone else, he keeps none of that safety for himself. Phil knows his family is a viper's nest, and yet he keeps them close instead of confronting them like a Lion would have - because it's done in service to his ideals: the idea that being sufficiently exposed to Good will make people see that it's Good. It's a very Bird kind of idea: I know that the way I see the world is a Good Idea, and if you let me build what I want, you'll see it too, just give it time and patience. Philionel is old enough not to be completely naive - when his family turns against him, he is sad, but not surprised - but he continues to work towards his ideals because that's what he believes in, and he won't betray the understanding of the world he has. He's a Bird. It's interesting how Phil works together with Lina - there's almost an unspoken understanding, a mutual recognition and respect. You've got your project, I've got mine, we can come together when we need to. And also when they both drop the models and talk Bird-to-Bird it's almost always a very brief conversation of pure logic. They speak each other's language, even when Phil accounts for Lina's Lion, and Lina - for Phil's Badger. The Badger comes out in what he does. As Crown Prince, Philionel creates and maintains the shining City of White Magic, safe, beautiful and peaceful. It's his project, his fantasy, his domain, his community. He builds it with a purpose and belongs to it entirely - although maybe his Bird sometimes chafes just a little, which comes out in him traveling undercover to see his domain with his own eyes. A notable case is when Philionel plays into one of the assassination attempts, faking his own death and temporarily turning into Batman to suss out the evildoers, without considering the effect it would have on his daughter. Philionel thinks the city he has built is important, and in everyday life he wouldn't dream of abandoning his post. But when he gets to let his Bird out to play, he can't really resist. Notably, Amelia - who is very much a product of the system Phil built - takes the lie pretty hard. But that's for the next post.

[thelongestway]

Ok, WOW, I actually need to rewatch Revo/Evo-R now. But yes, this is all such a Badgersec, this is very specifically dark!Badger stuff. There's so much about Duty, and so much about "no, this won't help everyone, so this is not a good solution." Snakes have a dark side of "I have picked this person, screw everyone else"; Badgers do "this is good for Everyone, and if you're not Everyone, them's the breaks" (which does have something in common with the more rigid Birds). And Zel, who is such an idealist!

And "losing your sense of what it means to be a person"... One of the things Badger Secondaries do is sort of... Make themselves into what they feel the community needs. They shapeshift to match the room. And they can lose themselves in the shapeshifting. You can lose your sense of being a person in that.

"Both sincere and manipulative" is, well, such a Badgersec hallmark. Snakes (and our only Snake Secondary here is Xellos) craft personas for a purpose in a fluid and dynamic way. Bird Secondaries craft theirs in a less deep, more rigid way (although with practice they can look like Snakes). But Rezo? He puts his whole self into it; and then he wonders if he still remembers who he is. And yeah - Badger Secondaries who fall short of their ideals are very common in real life - and waaay less common in media, especially in this exact way. That is to say, man, is Rezo a cool character. This particular Lion/Badger combination usually emphasizes the Lion and Badger aspects in a different way - you get a more outwardly-directed Lion and a more... Bureaucratic Badger. But Rezo gets to have one of those narrow, straightforward Lion Secondaries AND the expansive kind of Badger that's both Bookkeeper and Courtier (that's the two kinds we usually get; Bookkeepers are those who work with Systems, and Courtier are those who focus more on people), while underscoring the dark!Badger tendency to lose the trees for the forest. Very, very cool! Edit: also, "the means and the reasoning matter not"! Damn if that's not a Lion Primary line.

Not to comment on something you posted over a year ago, but based on my impressions of the SHC system I think Rezo would, like Zel, also be a Lion/Bird (albeit I am basing this partly on his Revo/Evo-R characterization as well as his Slayers Prime characterization.)

Ha! Long-term engagement is fantastic, so thank you for asking! Let me do A Take on this - but I don't remember Revo/Evo nearly as well, so if you've got something to add from that point, please do!

Rezo the Red Priest, one of the primary antagonists in Slayers, is an interesting case - the Lion Primary is certainly there! That single-minded devotion to curing his own eyesight has A LOT in common with how Zelgadis wants to cure his body. Actually, I think it's fairly safe to say that Zel probably copies his way of dealing from the one adult in his life. However, as far as Secondaries go... There are indeed points to be made for Bird. The sheer breadth of his knowledge - this is a man who goes on to master all the known types of magic to cure his ailment. But there's something to it that's more than tools. Rezo's... I want to say, expansive and systematic in a way few Bird secondaries ever reach, and he is also more nose-to-the-grindstone about it. Where Zelgadis picks up relevant tricks of the trade, Rezo just goes "well, if anything can fix this, it's magic." And he learns everything about magic. Not just what he thinks he needs to. He learns everything.

And the social side of how he works! Even though he doesn't really care for other people's blindness - at least at the point we see him in the first season of the anime - he acquires a reputation as one of the kindest mages, who goes on to heal other people in droves. It's this interesting combination - Rezo doesn't care about other people; but he also... Doesn't lie about his capabilities. He doesn't make up a Persona, the way Zel perhaps would have ("heartless swordsman!") Instead, he lets people project onto him and becomes what they need; he uses them for his own purposes but in a way that they are glad to be used.

He also doesn't keep people around for specific purposes. Bird secondaries have contacts; Rezo has minions and likely more than a few people who owe him their life and health. Even though he, too, has a lonely, ultimately selfish cause, he is enmeshed into Community to an extent Zelgadis would be terrified by.

And the way Zel gets through to him, when fighting Shabranigdo! "Do you really wish to destroy the world you wanted to see so much?" While I wrote earlier that Zel appeals to an Idealist morality here - and I think he does, Lion to Lion - I do think that this appeal also stirred the Badger, which is by its nature very global.

When Zel succeeds, Rezo doesn't bring down Shabranigdo from the inside. He holds him off. Endures. Just enough for Lina to do her thing.

This could be a Bird Secondary... But I think that's a Badger Secondary. In her description of the SHC archetypes, @wisteria-lodge calls the Lion/Badger "The Lynchpin", and notes how they are often the center of a wheel, and the center of events. Rezo would be an unusually non-group oriented Lynchpin - perhaps because we see him at a very desperate point - but the sheer amount of Things revolving around him certainly fits the bill. Also, the Lynchpin is a very common "Sleeper Villain" sorting, and what is Rezo if not that.

Tl;dr: the original Rezo, I think, is a Lion/Badger. Kopii-kun, on the other hand...