#sometimes you think you're Sensible and the Oldest and it makes you spout terrible lines without really noticing

[gurguliare]

overnight replies

berrysphase replied to your post “@garden-ghoul reading the lay is making me reread the lay, and, random...”

This is such a great observation. I have had fun with the idea that Curufin has deliberately been playing up this deference as Celegorm's due in order to help foster his (Celegorm's) discontent -- as I tend to see Curufin as the principal agitator against Maedhros' policies -- but that's all pure speculation and I love these reads too!

I CAN DEFS SEE THAT and like of course Curufin is still taking most of the initiative, here, Curufin is the ideas guy, it’s just notable to me how... unironic/offhand his flattery is---not Iago, Rosencrantz. So playing up I believe, but there must have been some precedent for it, unless Celegorm is really dumb. which is also possible.

vardasvapors replied to your post “vardasvapors replied to your post:@garden-ghoul reading the lay is...”

yeah the auxiliary parents thing makes a lot of sense! I was also having like, half a thought about like, why DO c&c pull all this stuff that they surely know M&M wouldn't be down with.....? and like, if maglor might also have been more forceful against maedhros nearer to the end if he was more like '6th oldest brother of 7' instead of seeming like 'the younger brother of a group of 2'...

YEAH... maybe. it’s interesting. I mean, I kind of suspect 1) that Maedhros's authority was (harmfully) unimpeachable above and beyond any other internal power shifts, and, like, so habitual that they all thought of it as a Maedhros thing, as much as a ‘firstborn’ thing, even though it super was a firstborn thing; 2) that maglor wouldn’t have been able to sustain that sixth oldest line once the others were dead, regardless of whether he had some of that before. Still, it’s definitely not the only dynamic that could have formed---‘what would that story be like if Maedhros and Maglor were just less close’ is also a weird one to entertain.

As for C&C, I guess I’m (perhaps uncharitably?) not convinced that they knew Maedhros wouldn’t be down---or rather, I can sort of see how they would think the fait accompli of “we have Nargothrond” would outweigh the sketchy disposal of Finrod, since Maedhros is first and foremost a pragmatist and Finrod did in fact insist on going up against Morgoth (and since the people of Nargothrond are still pretty much free actors here, hypnotism aside). Like, I can imagine them trying to sell it to him as a very in-character failure of diplomacy on their part, rather than a success of another kind. I also wonder if Maedhros took a different tone when alone with his more aggressive brothers than he did anywhere else: we see a bit of it in his line about Thingol---"Therefore in Doriath let him reign, and be glad that he has the sons of Finwë for his neighbours, not the Orcs of Morgoth that we found. Elsewhere it shall go as seems good to us."---and it would make sense if he played up the ‘we’re biding our time and ignoring the h8ers!!’ element for their benefit, which meant keeping their trust but losing some influence over their behavior. “We’re playing the same game and have the same goals” gives C&C implied permission to follow their own judgment, when he’s not right there to explain that this isn’t the sportsmanship he had in mind.