#so obviously supernatural is the best place for me amirite??

[one-more-offbeat-anthem]

Is it terrible to say that I feel like supernatural was great at s8, but then kind of went downhill from there? I am watching s11 onwards for the first time because I stopped in s10 (cause of Charlie's death) many years ago, s11 wasn't too bad but I did not really like the whole attraction thing between Dean and Amara, idk it was just uncomfortable - and it's not even because I ship Dean with Cas, s12 seems to be at a rough start, I can't wait for that cowboy episode that comes I am guessing after Cas comes back from the empty (I've been watching a few clips on youtube so I know a few things. Like did it pick up a bit after s12? What's your favourite seasons after s8?

look, it's called season gr(eight) for a reason.

so I'll be honest, I have a slight advantage over some other watchers in that I started watching spn in fall of 2013 (when s9 was airing) but instead of watching live and just starting there, I went back and watched all the old episodes, so I didn't watch live until mid-s11, I think. and a lot of folks quit around the time you did, in s9/10/11, but since I was watching older episodes I didn't have to wait to find out what happened next, if an episode wasn't great I could just watch the next one, y'know?

I'll admit that I didn't love s11, mostly because Amara did kinda give me the heebie-jeebies, but she comes back in later seasons and I actually really love her character now.

I think that s12 was pretty good, I mean, we get to meet Kelly! and I think Mary gets a bad rap but I actually kind of liked her, and the new complexities it added to her relationship with Dean and Sam. It probably could have been handled better, but that's true of most things in spn.

Other stuff post s12 that's great: well, Jack, for starters (although I'm jack-coded so I'm biased), Eileen Leahy my beloved, that cowboy episode (it's named Tombstone and it is--so sue me--my favorite episode of spn. I have a keychain that's Cas in that episode because I am the Worst), Michael!Dean is compelling, and a lot of other stuff. in terms of favorite season post s8? I feel like s13 had some fun episodes but s14 actually gets a special place in my heart, and the s14 finale, Moriah, is doing the *most.*

Obviously there are some episodes in there that are not-so-great, and another person who analyzes the show more would probably give you better advice about if it's worth watching, but I would say yes. I would also say that, like a lot of people, I didn't like the finale so you can always stop after 15x19 xD and fan works my beloved. something that has helped me deal with parts of the show I didn't like is 1) writing my own fan works and 2) reading fix it fics. when in doubt replace canon with whatever you want amirite

anyways I hope this helps! like I said I'm probably not the best person to ask about this, but I hope this gave you some perspective!

[awed-frog]

hi there! i dont tend to trust sdcc interviews but i figure i'd ask this so i could get your opinion! a big thing they were talking about was the aftermath of michael on dean.. if they do this right it could be SO good and SO interesting for his character.. so i was gonna ask what you think this means for his character? after he is done being possessed by michael?

Hi! I haven’t heard the spoilers, and to be honest my enthusiasm about the show is pretty much in free fall - under a cut and sort of bitter, okay?

So, the obvious parallels that come to mind are Dean coming back from Hell and Dean being freed from the Mark, and I think the time and energy the show spent of those aftermaths is very telling of what the narrative priorities are. 

If you look at the post-Hell period - was intense. I haven’t rewatched that season in a while, but I seem to remember they spent a lot of time on how broken and not himself Dean was? And the whole thing, of course, was revealed to be even more tragic than what fans expected when Dean decided to tell Sam about how he’d chosen to torture others. Ouch. That was some truly powerful stuff, especially because in the pre-Hell period Dean had mostly pretended to be carefree - scarfing down burgers for breakfast, having threesomes, and generally trying to convince himself (and others) that since he never had much of a lifespan anyway, this death made complete sense. All of that, of course, was masterfully contrasted with how Dean actually died - he never got the hero death I’m sure many were expecting, the beautiful and sexy death main characters and pretty people are mostly gifted (or burdened) with. Instead, it was terrifying, base, humiliating affair - Dean was literally torn apart by dogs as his baby brother watched (not to mention he regretted his righteous decision as soon as he landed in Hell, and found himself calling for Sam like a frightened child instead of suffering his fate in manly silence). Jesus Sycamore Christ. That was beyond sobering, as was the whole post-Hell period - and especially how Dean wasn’t, in the end, all that happy to be alive again. Again: ouch.

What happened in S11 was rather different. On the whole, I enjoyed that season a lot, but while there were some tense and emotional moments for Dean (like his conversation with God), I found it very odd - and somewhat disappointing - that nobody ever mentioned the Mark again. After all, it was implied (or stated outright? I honestly don’t remember) that the Mark didn’t exactly change Dean; its power was preying on people, and taking their worst instincts to horrifying extremes. For instance, Dean kept hunting, but where he would normally give people a second chance, or find a solution that didn’t involve a full-out massacre, MoC!Dean never cared about that at all. However necessary it was for Dean to choose this burden (and even that is debatable), it led very directly to the death of a bunch of innocent people - Charlie, of course, but also the NoHomo hunter, knockoff Draco Malfoy and Rowena’s godchild (you’d think she’d mention him again at some point, or that Sam and Cas would bring him up in a kind of ‘Hey, remember when we slaughtered an innocent teen on the off chance his beating and bloodied heart could cure Dean? Good times’, but nope). To make matters worse, those four deaths happened in the space of a couple of days? And I get that Dean had other things on his mind soon after he was cured, but I still found it bizarre that they never came up at all. I mean - sure, there were subtextual clues and all that - when are there not, amirite - but to me, it was too weak. Honestly, it looked like Dean (and Sam, and Cas) just didn’t give a damn about the trail of destruction they’d left behind. Because this is what’s never acknowledged in S11: that those deaths were on them. Whoever got killed when Dean had the Mark: on them. And, more directly and unequivocally, all those people Amara killed: on them. That’s some powerful stuff, and yet it’s never explored at all, because it’s not what the current showrunner is interested in.

All this to say: in theory, post-Michael!Dean should be huge. The fact Dean took the decision so quickly was already a narrative blunder, considering how he’d been in exactly the same situation (and worse) in earlier seasons but had decided to say no to Michael. I mean - Dean’s free will and how it clashes with his need to help others - that’s the core of the character, and yet it took one line of dialogue to erase it into nothingness. Now, heading into S14 it looks pretty likely that Dean will rid himself of Michael very early - we’re talking two or three episodes, max, and apparently that’s our fault or something (don’t even get me started), which means this Very Meaningful and Earth-Shattering thing is already losing importance in favour of - I don’t know.

(More KFC demons? Lucifer’s cousin Throckmorton? Bobby and Mary’s budding romance and how that is finally the thing that turns Mary into a Tupperware wife and removes her from the boys’ lives in a believable way? I guess we’ll see.)

Will it have an effect on Dean? Obviously I can’t say for sure, but I doubt it. 

Like, for one, Michael has no beef with Dean, and vice versa. These two characters are not connected in any emotional way. To Michael, Dean is just a random and contemptible human; to Dean, Michael is just another over-ambitious freak in need of a good beheading. As for archangel possession - that’s tricky. Some guys are left empty shells; Sam wasn’t, and Cas wasn’t (and Dean is another main character, so he can’t be hurt too badly). Sam suffered a lot, but that’s because Lucifer hated him and had a personal vendetta against him. As a comparison, when Lucifer possessed Cas, he basically gave Cas a nice TV and never bothered him again, and I think that’s a more accurate description of the connection between AU!Michael and Dean. Neither of them cares enough for this thing to escalate. So whatever happens between them (Michael dies; Michael is kicked back to the AU!world; Michael finds another suitable vessel; Michael is forced into an unsuitable vessel), I don’t think there’ll be a lot of focus on how that changes Dean.

On the plus side, there are solid narrative reasons for that lack of focus to make sense. For instance, Dean’s never been the emotionally stunted troll fanon keeps pretending he is, but over the last two seasons he’s really made an effort to make his feelings crystal clear, and he’s been berated and ignored every single time. So if I were him, I don’t think I’d be very eager to confide in Sam ‘What about MY feelings?’ Winchester, Mary ‘Ew, I don’t want to be your mom’ Winchester or Cas ‘You humans make everything so needlessly complicated’ Winchester (he’s a brother now, right? even if for some reason we’re seeing him less than Jack). No, Dean is likely to keep his feelings private - despite the fact this experience should, logically, be a turning point for him. We know Dean has big issues when it comes to giving up control, and possession is - inevitably - also a metaphor for rape, which is - canonically? - a part of Dean’s past (look at Alastair’s unnecessary queering, for God’s sake). So a post!Michael Dean - he could have less confidence in himself, especially if his decision ends up doing more harm than good for some reason, or he could develop PTSD and decide to retire because he’s got nothing left to give (narratively sound, but not a place the show can afford to go to) or he could become nihilistic and even more determined to get his blaze of glory ending, and sooner rather than later (after all, we know he gets suicidal when he feels he needs to atone, so).

From a RL perspective, I don’t know how much of that we’ll see. Considering how little they used post-MoC!Dean, I think maybe we can expect some new crisis which will keep the focus off Dean’s feelings and opinions. On the other hand, S13 was basically a ‘best of’ of the Kripke era, so it’s possible that S14 will revisit the post-Hell!Dean theme in some way. I don’t know. Lately, the show seems determined to prove our heroes are Good People Who’ve Done Nothing Wrong Ever, so from that perspective Dean saying yes to Michael should turned out to be a Big Mistake, because Dean saying no to Michael is basically half of what saved the world the first time around. Then again, I’m not seeing a lot of coherence on that front (I’m on team ‘Why was the AU!world even about Mary’, sorry about that), so, really - everything is anyone’s guess. At this point, the one thing we can predict about Supernatural is that if you’re interested in the characters’ inner lives and in them actually evolving in some healthy way, you’re better off with fanfiction.

I apologize. I know that was depressing and bitter. Here is a baby owl.