#so just seeing the overall logic in hanzi they. seem to make sense generally to me. i still learn them slow because it takes TIME

[rigelmejo]

this is gonna be just a mash of things this article made me think about - “why chinese is so damn hard”

In it, they wrote that:  At the end of three years of learning Chinese, I hadn't yet read a single complete novel.

Ok so. To be fair to them, one of the books they tried reading for pleasure (as in without a dictionary) was The Dream of the Red Chamber after 6 years of study. Which is like reading Shakespeare - its literary, its older, its fair if that is difficult especially for pleasure. (As in english speaking countries, we’ve been in school 9+ years before we’re asked to read Shakespeare and other classical type literary works).  

But back to focusing on the “end of three years” thing. 

When I started learning chinese, I was basically motivated by a person who wrote an article about how they looked at a little grammar, some radicals explanations, then brute forced 2000 common words memrise decks, then started reading with a click dictionary for pleasure. And it worked for them! And so, being me and very curious to ‘test’ if things work: I wanted to try it too. I did more prep work, more extra hanzi work than that article mentioned. And I don’t think it felt pleasurable with a click dictionary (I used pleco) for a while - but it was doable with a click-dictionary at that point so I do think that person who wrote the article was pretty honest about the progress they’d made. For me, and I think them if I remember correctly, that was around 8 months to start reading with a click dictionary. 

I read another article back in the middle of this, by Timo (who made Timo’s All in One Chinese anki deck), where he said he’d learned enough to pass HSK 4 in somewhere between 6 months to a year (I can’t remember exactly how long but it was a year or less). I think I covered all the HSK 4 words in memrise by 10 months, and probably felt comfortable with most of them around 14 months? And Now its been almost 2 years and if I were to take an HSK test that’s probably the one that I would pass with some study (I imagine I could try an HSK 5 one with some prep beforehand maybe?). HSK 4 is what I “aimed for” since I’d also read articles around that time of people saying that’s about when simple webnovels got “doable with a click dictionary” and when learning words FROM what you read started helping reading percent comprehension more than HSK. Which is a statement I agree with - I learned vocabulary mainly from reading after that point, and as a result it has definitely improved my reading comprehension and vocabulary (like it made Xiao Wang Zi pretty readable without dictionary etc, Zhen Hun is now readable without a dictionary, Daomubiji is), but these words I’ve picked up only matched maybe 50-70% with HSK 5-6 words (which is why I’d need to prep if I wanted to take an HSK 5 test probably).

So. I do think: if you WANT to read, if your GOAL is to read chinese novels? That is doable in 3 years. Certainly doable in 6. Especially if you are willing to study, and to read a LOT. 

General opinions I’ve found surrounding the topic of reading in Chinese include: reading through several books (10,000 pages) will help reading speed/ease, the more you read the easier (and faster) it gets. The more words you know, the easier it gets (WORDS not hanzi, and words generally being 5,000-15,000 for ease-feeling depending on your own tolerance for ambiguity). So basically: yes it will be super slow going at first, YES the speed will improve, yes you don’t need to dread not being able to pick up a book until X years into studying. I’ve seen people who started reading after 8 months (the guy who used a click dictionary who inspired me), or people that started after 1-3 years (me at around 1 year, a lot of people around HSK 4-6, a lot of people once they’ve learned 2k hanzi or 2k-5k words etc). 

I personally noticed a page used to take me 30 minutes... then 20... then 15... then 5... now a bit under 5 minutes (and ‘easier’ books less time). So reading speed will eventually get better. Mine still has some improvements that need to be reached eventually lol. I can say at about 1500 hanzi reading and picking up hanzi IN reading (provided you have an audiobook or click-dictionary with audio to hear the hanzi sound) seemed to start working pretty well. So I do think 2000 hanzi is actually a fair estimate of ‘reading will get doable without a dictionary by then.’ I may be around 2000 hanzi known now, and most of the time the hanzi I see are either brand new words (which I SHOULD learn) or part of descriptions/similar words to things I know and I can guess (and with audio also learn them). Hanzi have gotten easier to guess now, to remember, to make connections with.

My point is just that if you want to read - read early, read often, you do not need to be afraid it’s impossible. 

There are people who got into reading way faster than me, people who did much slower. And also tolerance of ambiguity is a big deal - I do think chinese requires more tolerance of ambiguity when making the transition to reading native content (versus learner materials and graded readers) since there’s unknown hanzi you won’t be able to avoid. I’ve got a pretty high tolerance, but yeah there might be ‘slogging’ for a while depending on where your tolerance level is. If you can comprehend the ‘overall main idea’ of paragraphs, sentences? You can understand it enough to learn from it (though how ‘draining’ it will feel will depend on difficulty of the reading and your own tolerance for ambiguity). I saw one translator estimate 3-4 years to read webnovels for pleasure (so no dictionary necessary) and I think that’s a pretty fair estimate (if you’re studying regularly, trying to practice reading with graded readers and click-dictionaries). I’m at almost 2 years and some webnovels I can read for pleasure without a dictionary, many feel better with one but somewhat doable without one, and some I slog through even with a dictionary. I think 3-4 years is a pretty good estimate if you’re studying regularly. 

My other main thought is just... oh man. Reading that someone did not complete their first chinese novel in 3 years MAKES me want to finish a chinese novel before August (that’s my 2 year mark -3-)! I mean technically I finished Xiao Wangzi and a Xiao Mao book but those are both for children and quite short. But yeah nothing motivates me like a challenge to see if something is doable or not...

Somewhat related to this, but I got a new version of Zhen Hun recently (the traditional character version because the covers are SO freaking lovely). And it seems to match up to the webnovel chapters?? So unlike my simplified copy, this one doesn’t have extra scenes and changed scenes and added details in each chapter. I only skimmed (and its chapters are broken up differently than the webnovel which is pretty normal) so I’m not sure if my traditional version has the extras or Shen San extra (my simplified copy does). It does not have the Kunlun prologue my simplified copy has. But, since this traditional copy matches up to the webnovel pretty close (just a few wording changes like next/then/after etc), I could read it very easy! It’s my first time reading traditional chinese in longer novel form since MoDu or The MDZS, so its cool seeing my progress from 6 months in to now.