#should i tag this as feudal system. that would be so funny

[arcadiiian]

a noble and their loyal vassal

[uchiha-gaeshi]

Please please PLEASE tell me how your Founders SIs would cause problems and make everything worse forever. I always thought the problem with the founders era is that there aren't ENOUGH things going wrong all the time. <3

The Naruto Warring States Era SI/OC Fic That May Never Be Written: The Elevator Pitch

Ok, so I'll try to make this as coherent as I can, but fair warning that there will be lots of rambling. I really wanted to make this as polished as possible, since this is basically like my (long ass fuck) elevator pitch for the fic, but I'm living by the "perfect is the enemy of good" mantra these days, so I don't want to delay this further. I highly encourage y'all to ask me more questions about this, because I've definitely missed certain details. I don't think just one post will do this justice. In the future, I'll probably have a specific tag for this (besides #the si/oc fic that may never be written).

TLDR: Two SIs (self-insert original character) are isekai'd into the Naruto Warring States Period and are born as the younger siblings of Hashirama and Madara. One SI tries to secure peace (post Konoha founding) by forming a world government and making the narutoverse extremely reliant on Konoha's expensive yet life-saving pharmaceuticals. The other basically tries to kill all the daimyo one by one and permanently destroy the feudal system from the bottom up. This is all happening at the same time, and at every point in the story, from birth to death, each SI gets in the way of the other...even though they are (or were) the same person.

Let me first introduce you to the self-insert characters.

Senju Tsukasa (working name, please give me name recs), who is Hashirama's 2nd youngest brother

Uchiha Takaya, who is Madara's 2nd youngest brother

in case you were wondering, both characters are Geminis. Oh, an they're overpowered. Does that help the universe? If anything, it probably makes things worse (this is the "overpowered characters make waves" time period of the overpowered characters shonen manga, the last thing the world needs is another 2 OP shinobi).

Neither character knows of the other's existence...yet. But, that's not the biggest catch. The catch is that they actually lived the same life in the past (i.e. they're *technically* the same person). Both characters, however, have wildly different opinions on how to "fix" canon. Here, I should mention that the characters are technically semi self-inserts in the sense that they have (at least what I think are) common Naruto fandom takes (e.g. "ooohhh Madara just wanted power/was just sad cus his little bro died," "the only bad thing about Hashirama was that he was naive," "if it wasn't for Izuna dying everything in the village would have been peachy" and so on and so forth).

Additionally, while I'm basing some of their personality traits off of me (or, for instance, if Tsukasa is say 12, Tsukasa would have some traits that 12 year old me had...but child soldier edition), I have to give the disclaimer that these characters are, like their canon counterparts, also fictional (so don't look at me funny if they do some crazy shit, it runs in both of their families). Going back on the subject of "fixing" canon, when it comes time to think about that, their first knee-jerk question is "how do I make sure that Madara/my brother doesn't become evil (or doesn't leave Konoha)." But, in their quest to shape the universe, the universe ultimately shapes them.

I'll first start by describing Uchiha Takaya, who I think might be the more interesting character, at least in the beginning of the story.

Figuring out a name for this character was surprisingly simple. I based their name on the headcanon that Madara's siblings' names are inspired from the Five Mountains of Northern Shinshu. Takaya, however, is the odd sixth child (not in terms of birth order), so where do they fit into this naming scheme? Well, (according to Japanese Wikipedia), in some tourist guides, Mount Kousha takes the place of Mount Myouko in the Five Mountains, so I thought "teehee, I'm gonna use that to name my character." An alternative reading for Mount Kousha (高社山 こうしゃさん) is Mount Takayashiro. I layer another headcanon that most Uchiha names are 3 syllables in length, and that's how "Takaya" was derived.

After the initial shock of being a newborn again but with memories of another more comfortable life swimming in their head (along with information about their family's life??? What the hell is going on with that??), Takaya comes to some dawning conclusions:

1) Oh shit, my entire family is gonna die (and not in the sense of oh we're shinobi in the middle of a never-ending war with the Senju, but in the sense that they'll be almost completely gone within 3-5 generations, leaving behind a single child (our boy Sasuke) who has to live with the burden of having no family)

2) their kind older brother Madara becomes... that. And even though there's a very low chance (generally speaking) that they'll live past say 14, Takaya tries their darndest to ensure the wellbeing of their clan and of their brothers as long as they are alive. This is done in two fronts, which eventually combine into one:

a) Finding a way to beef up the Uchiha's medical facilities.

I headcanon that the Uchiha had like *some* medical knowledge; I mean you have to have some kind of procedure when one of your clan members inevitably gets stabbed, slashed, or burned. But, this medical knowledge oftentimes fell short, so many Uchiha shinobi didn't necessarily die on the battlefield but back at the clan compound or the medical tents due to injuries. This is how Izuna probably died, and Tobirama asked of Izuna the next time his clan confronted the Uchiha (or just Madara???) because he might have assumed that the Uchiha had medical knowledge comparable to the Senju (who along with other clans like the Hyuga and Nara are the cream of the crop when it comes to medicine during this time period, at least in my headcanon) and assumed that his nemesis was like recovering from the injury, not dead.

Idk yet how I'll handle things like infection and disease. I'll have to absorb some more SI/OC fanfics (and Warring States Era fanfics in general) so that I'm more familiar with common tropes and can deconstruct them from there. One SI/OC fic I've been meaning to read is Sanitize, which deals with the disease/infection prevention aspect of medical care before Konoha's founding. Regardless, I think that using the Mystical Palm Technique on serious wounds could decrease the likelihood of a wound becoming infected, so it'll be a super useful technique for clans that don't already have knoweldge of this jutsu.

The lack of medical knowledge/techniques becomes apparent to Takaya when one of their siblings dies in a similar manner -- they get injured and die after days, maybe weeks, in agony. They remember the glowy hands technique they saw in the show, and go, "is there a way we could do that to help our clan members?" Honestly, this part is a bit shaky since information during this time is quite siloed, and Takaya quickly learns that you gotta break a few eggs to make an omlette.

b) Securing the bag.

Here, I'm rely on the headcanon that the Uchiha were, relatively speaking, at least poorer than the Senju. I'll need to figure out how big the gap is, however, between the Senju and say the daimyo and rich nobles, the Senju and the Uzumaki (I want them to be bougie shinobi lmao), and the Senju and the Uchiha (I mean after all, the Uchiha gained notoriety for being elite shinobi, so I don't think they'd always be on the brink of starving to death, but I'd like to hash ideas out with others on this). Even if the Senju are relatively well-off, they won't be rich enough to like completely stop relying on mercenary work, and the samurai and other people in the upper echelons of society will make it very clear that the Senju aren't all that because their line of work is inherently dishonourable. Iirc, in the past (in our world) social status and wealth didn't always go hand in hand, so going by that (if I'm not too wrong haha) you could have poor samurai (I think this happened irl) and nobility who for one reason or another lost their wealth, and you could have people in the lower strata of society who were loaded.

Anywho, overtime it becomes clear to Takaya that things between the Uchiha and their longtime rivals aren't as "equal" as they thought, and they along with Izuna (they become the scheming duo heehee) start scheming up multiple "get rich quick" schemes for the Uchiha that extend beyond taking the highest paying mission, inevitably having to duke it out with the Senju, and having at least one person die gruesomely. These schemes include (I should mention that this is gonna be a semi-crack fic):

Taking advantage of Hashirama's gambling addiction early (when he's like 12) and figuring out a way to make his main coping mechanism gambling instead of idk meditating under the trees. This way, even if a mission isn't successful, they still indirectly get the mission money.

Offering medical services for a (very hefty) fee. This might be a first for a shinobi clan to do, and it obviously comes with some risks, but in a war-torn world it is a pretty lucrative field of business. Takaya is very clear, however, that the Uchiha are offering medical services solely for the money, not out of charity or goodwill. Takaya develops a "fuck you I have mine" mentality. While they're extremely empathetic and caring, that compassion only extends to their family, their clan members, and maaaaybe the few allies the Uchiha have. They don't have the emotional capacity to care about anyone else, so they don't. So, if someone begs them to offer medical services for their sick mother and they can't pay, Takaya will walk away with no issue (they will be tossing and turning at night, but that's only because they drank too much water before bed, right?)

Honeypot missions with a twist (this one might be like 70% Izuna's idea tbh). The Uchiha don't really engage in honeypot/seduction missions in the traditional sense (honestly I probably need more exposure to the honeypot/seduction trope) because of the whole securing the bloodline thing, but there are ways around this. Basically, there will be a unit of Uchiha who specialize in a specific kind of seduction mission where they basically pull a Cardi B on unsuspecting clients; that is, they roofie the client and steal their money pouch and any other valuables then leave them to wake up in the middle of a dirt road

(I should note that I am a beginner writer and have very little experience writing actual fics. I'm quite good (I think) at coming up with ideas (often very strange) while I'm showering or cooking, but I'm working on improving my follow-thru game. This process, however, is slow due to executive functioning shit and current life circumstances. So, some ideas or plot bunnies might not make sense. I'd really love to hash out and polish these ideas with more experienced minds.)

In terms of finding a solution to achieve peace with the Senju, that part is... complicated. Why? The Senju, even under Hashirama, haven't really proven themselves as trustworthy enough to be allied with the Uchiha, centuries-long blood feud aside (for reasons I gotta hash out, anyone have ideas?). Additionally, some...other developments arise that make Takaya go, "you know what? Maybe I am sick of war (it always twists their stomach whenever they can't save a patient, especially if that patient is a kid), not to mention it's hurting our clan financials, but I'd rather we maintain our pride and honour during this horrible time than to be at the mercy of the Senju. Also, fuck Hashirama and Tobirama." (dm me if you want to know what that development is, it's a major spoiler and only adds to the crack nature of the potential fic)

But, for *other reasons* (read: Tsukasa, the other SI, may or may not have beaten the shit out of them), they eventually concede to a ceasefire, then later an alliance with the Senju. Overtime, they do learn to extend compassion to other non clan members, as long as they live in Konoha that is. They expand the business model that prevented the Uchiha from *actually* being on the brink of starvation at the end of the Warring States Era in canon (and having not much choice but to create an alliance with the Senju even if they had to make far too many concessions which when added up over many decades contributed to their demise) to Konoha. They know that war between the villages is inevitable, so depending on how I write this (if I ever do), they'll either try to strongarm (either with force or with economic might) the other villages under Konoha's umbrella to eventually form a "world government" of sorts, or have Konoha sit back as the other villages try to destroy each other, swoop in for medical assistance and reap the profit. If Hashirama (Hashirama does not like Madara's younger siblings in this fic, and the feeling is mutual) looks at them sideways for their skewed morals, they'll just go "why r u upset we haven't killed anyone we just jacked up the price of ninja insulin is all."

Oh, I should also mention that if the Tailed Beasts become an issue, both SIs have no problem with granting these creatures the same fate as in canon; the only thing that differs between them is how they approach the Tailed Beasts. While Takaya might go up to say Matatabi and basically tell her "ok, get in to this scroll," Tsukasa might attempt to convince them that they are safer sealed in a scroll or in a person than they are being out and about (you know how Kinkaku and Ginkaku tried to capture Kurama? Maybe they weren't the only ones trying to do so once the Hidden Village system was established).

Now, it's time to talk about Senju Tsukasa, who is child no. 3. Honestly, trying to name the Senju SI was harder than I thought. I just settled on "Tsukasa," which (according to this website at least) can be used to signify one's connection with nature. It's gonna take a while before I find a good name for this character, but for now Tsukasa is the working name for this SI.

Tsukasa, unlike Takaya, honestly isn't really concerned about "fixing" the future up until their teens. They're too busy having panic attacks, trying not to die, and maybe saving their younger siblings along the way (whether or not they succeed in this I cannot say right now 😶) to really thing about that. Oh, and also getting up to stupid shit when they're not training (like putting weed in Butsuma's porridge. The surprising thing is they don't get caught for a looong time, but one day they slip and start bragging about it to their cousins. One of their cousins snitches on them, and they get the ass-whooping of both of their lives). Besides, what can they do? They can heal, but Hashirama's a better healer. They can definitely hold their own in a fight, but Tobirama is quicker on his feet and better at commanding an army. Their strategy is basically "oh, maybe I'll volunteer to heal Izuna when my brother shanks him" (like that would be an easy task. Hint: probably not likely since if Izuna didn't trust the Senju with an alliance, how would he trust them to heal him?). They, along with certain individuals in their life (again I cannot say right now but if you dm me I might spill), if they don't want to outright wipe the Uchiha off the face of the planet (during this time period all clans wanted this end for their rivals), they take the approach of weakening them, and putting them in the position of having no choice but to accept any terms their rivals/nemesis throws in front of them.

Right now, I don't really have Tsukasa's character and purpose in the story before Konoha's founding (besides foiling all of Takaya's diabolical plans) set quite yet. It's just a bunch of plot bunnies that I'll only remember if you ask specific questions.

Compared to Takaya, Tsukasa doesn't really have a reason for sticking it out during this time of constant war besides "Idk let's find out what happens next," and they oscillate between not caring if they die because they've died once and dying again wouldn't hurt, and not wanting to die because even though they don't remember the whole process or how they got to exist in a world that was only a story in their previous life, they remember it felt like being pulled apart (gee I wonder why) and was likely scary and unpleasant.

Their character really starts to shine once the village is founded, and Tsukasa slowly becomes disillusioned with their older brother's dream (i.e. "what do you mean I still gotta go on assassination missions?!?!??"). They were dumb enough to think that once the village is founded without Izuna (or Madara's other stupid little brother unfortunately) dying, everything would be peachy. But of course, in both this life and in the past life, you gotta find a way to pay the bills, and for 99% of the clans that eventually inhabit Konoha that way has been doing shady shit for rich people for as long as they can remember. It's either business as usual, or their counterpart's own interesting methods of not having Konoha rely on violence (at least, Takaya's definition of "violence") and strife for money.

Ever since they were young, Tsukasa has had a visceral disdain for the daimyo and other rich clients who hire the Senju to deal with dirty business they do not out of "honour," lack of skill, or just cowardice. When the Senju and Uchiha eventually form an alliance, Tsukasa proposes to their brothers that they take it a step further and just kill the Fire Daimyo. For reasons (which I gotta think of ugh), Hashirama and Tobirama disagree and they continue on with their livelihoods as usual. After multiple personal and political developments over the span of at least half a decade or so, Tsukasa becomes fed up, leaves Konoha (might bring some friends with them who knows), and decides to create an old-timey Akatsuki with the goal of completely destroying the feudal system, and the shinobi world as they know it. If their methods eventually put Konoha in a recession then too bad so sad.

If all of this sounds kinda dumb, that's kinda the point. The whole story is doomed from start to finish whether or not these characters exist in the story, and the SIs only make *some* things better, if any, while leaving the world in a messier state than they left it. I do have 2 other SIs (around the main timeline) who have a happier ending and aren't as messed up as the Warring States SIs. But, those haven't been fully developed yet and aren't really my focus at this time.

Also, all of this is subject to change at any time. The idea for this potential fic has changed dramatically over time, especially as my understanding of Naruto (the manga) itself has changed over the past few months. Initially, it started off as an interesting thought exercise (what if you were born into the worst fictional world you can think of? What would you do (besides y’know dying right then and there). From there, the thought exercise got crazier and crazier and more unhinged, with some frankly self-indulgent elements interspersed between the horrors™️. Initially these two characters weren't even supposed to be in the same universe at the same time, but eventually they did because I thought it would be funny as fuck. There are a lot of things that live in my head but have yet to be written down, and some things here that are subject to change in the future once I get a solid handle on the characters, whether they are the SIs, the canon characters, the pseudo-canon characters who are practically OCs (class 1 pseudo-canon (at least 1 line): Izuna, Itama, Mito; class 2 pseudo-canon (no lines): Kawarama, Touka, Hikaku), or the slew of *actual* OCs I’ll have to create (I both dread this yet I’m so excited to create them. I already some ideas for a few).

I'm practically begging people to ask me more questions about this; it might actually motivate me to get over the shame and "he/she/they would NOT say that" in my head and actually write for once. Ask me about their OP abilities, ask me about potential ways they get traumatized, ask me any other question you feel like asking :D

[jonsnowunemploymentera]

Nope, you’re making a lot of sense! And I do not think that all kings and queens are bad. GRRM certainly doesn’t. We also see various characters who use the system to cause harm (e.g., Tywin), but we also have characters who work within the system to do a whole lot of good (as you mentioned Dany, plus Jon). I personally don’t think it’s a vain desire to want a position of power to do good. And I agree that that one does need some sort of power to enact positive change. And as we see with Dany, she equates her crown with justice and works towards that (which directly puts her at odds with like the vast majority of rulers we see in the series).

But what I was referring to (and maybe I ought to have been clearer) is that there are a lot of readers who think that attaining a crown or the throne is the highest peak of a character’s progression - or maybe even the only ending a character can get. Which I don’t necessarily agree with. I’m a Jon stan and my happy ending, for example, is him being far away from KL or the responsibilities of being king of the 7k.

From what I’ve seen over the years, a lot of fans are operating without thinking about what it means to be king or queen. To them, these are just fancy titles. Or they’re a prize someone gets for “suffering a lot”. GRRM says he was interested in Aragorn’s tax policy and to me it indicates that he’s interested in exploring how people operate within the intricacies of feudal power (and we can see that with Aegon V’s reign I think + Jon and Dany learning to lead in ADWD). Plus he also does explore how disenfranchised people get hurt by the cycles of violence. So when I use the very reductive “feudalism bad”, I’m just venting about how there are people who ignore the complexities of what it means to operate in this system for both the good and the bad.

There’s a huge disconnect when it comes to how people in this fandom perceive who is or isn’t deserving of power. I’ve seen a lot of people say Jon and Dany are undeserving of being in power because of their failures (I’ve also seen this applied to Tyrion). This has always been super funny to me because literally every single leader we see in this series fails one way or another. Kingship isn’t easy, but people think it is (or should be for certain people). That why you see people saying Aegon or Sansa will be successful where Jon and Dany failed…which rings alarm bells for me because how? People think they deserve the throne or crown more than anyone else, but why..? They’re still operating within this system that begets failure? Why and how are they different? You get what I mean?

(And it might sound contradictory but while I think J&D are excellent leaders and would do the world a whole lot of good if they were in power, I certainly don’t think it’s owed to them or that they inherently deserve it. A system that keeps a select privileged few in power over everyone else is flawed, no matter who leads it. Hope that makes sense).

And I definitely agree that GRRM is a romantic! That’s part of why I’m really excited to see how he tackles King Bran as an ending. Because while I do think this series does try to explore the rot within the system, that we’re going to have a kid be king at the end makes me think that GRRM has some romantic values he wants to explore. Just can’t tell what they are as of now; and this also puts me in a conundrum because I’ve always seen Harrenhal and the Iron Throne in the same light but while I think the IT will be destroyed, I’m not so sure Harrenhal will be as well (in fact, I believe it will be King Bran’s seat). And maybe part of the romanticism in the ending will be a cursed ruin being the site of regrowth and rejuvenation idk.

My initial tags were being reductive tbh, because I have many thoughts on this subject. But I just firmly believe that based on what we see in this series, no one is owed power. The Iron Throne has been linked to such a cycle of violence that I just vehemently believe that it cannot in any way be linked to a “happy ending”. For the good of the narrative, it gots to go.

Need asoiaf fans to be disabused from the notion that anyone “deserves” the Iron Throne. Not a single person deserves it, doesn’t matter how good they are. And I’d take it a step further and say that no one deserves to be king or queen or lord. We shouldn’t be equating kingship/queenship with a happy ending. This series does so much to criticize this awful system so it’s particularly jarring that people will go “I want my fave to get their happy ending and sit on the iron throne”. That’s…kind of antithetical to what the series has shown us so far I think.