#should i make like. a meta tag? thanks for continuing to send asks btw

[cherrytreedreams]

Do you take Aidan's Five Viktor childhood crush statement as canon?

i actually did not know he said this prior to you sending this ask, so i went and googled and found it. so my thoughts are not particularly well-baked, but...

it is canon, in the sense that its how gallagher (at least initially) played the character. hes a very methodoligcal actor, and he seems to be always considering five's psyche in every scene. so. writings on the wall?

theres no way for me to truly get into my feelings about this without talking about how i feel about luther/allison, because im utterly convinced that luther/allison being canon is the reason one would even consider such a thing, so lets just... Lets just go there

i believe in ship and let ship and letting people do whatever they want, whatever, but i do think incest is gross, personally. and i do consider luther/allison to be incest. and i have a very specific interpretation of their relationship thats effected by this:

i think the hargreeves were deeply unsocialized. they didnt attend any kind of public school, nor are we given any indication that they were allowed, really, to talk to other children. none of them mention any childhood friends, and with how strict reggie was (even in their teen years) re: schedules, i cant really imagine them having any time to go out and interact with any other kids

meaning, the only kids they interacted with was each other. and its a pretty well-documented Thing that incest statistically happens more often when teenagers hitting puberty and adolescence arent around any other teenagers but their siblings.

so i think luther and allison were close as kids, got closer as they got older, werent allowed to interact with other kids-- nor, really, allowed to engage with other outlets for this kind of thing, like media-- and are both straight. and they understood each other. they cared deeply for each other and found solace in the other. the other person was their only reprieve from the abuse they were facing. so their relationship became warped with romantic feelings as a result. (and s1, because theyre in each other's vicinity for the first time in Years, causes them to find solace again in that old, childhood pattern of behavior.)

so, its not impossible for five to have felt something similar for viktor. its not even a difficult stretch of the imagination, since the context is exactly the same. and admittedly, the show does take comic diego's fondness for [viktor] and give it to five, which might even be what caused gallagher to come to this conclusion (since hes open about being a fan of the comics). (context: diego and [viktor] in the comics have a... THing.)

its not something i ever factored into their dynamic prior to this moment, so no, i cant say its something i considered canon. it makes me uncomfortable, if im totally honest. as someone with siblings, some of which are adoptive, incest is a big personal ick. the hargreeves not being blood related does nothing to soften this for me personally, given that my brothers and i In Real Life arent blood related. i have trouble killing the cop in my head about this particular issue .

which isnt to say that i even find it particularly out of character...? children raised in a violent and abusive environment cope in various ways, and its not difficult for me to imagine five feeling this way about viktor as a kid. tua is a messy piece of media and its characters are deeply, deeply messy. this doesnt make them irredeemable or sexually deviant or anything, not really. so, i dont have any arguments against it, exactly. it certainly sounds like something five would do

gallagher also posited that some of them didnt consider themselves siblings, since the umbrella academy was a "school", not a family. and that they had to "make their own" family because their father wasnt truly a father. so i think i just have diverging life experience that makes me touchy about this

regardless of my dislike, if thats what he intended with the character... then its what he intended. which isnt to say that actors are the end-all be-all of whats canon, but i have trouble denying his intent when it came to how he played the character around viktor. not much i personally can do about that. will i personally factor it into my headcanon? ...probably not. i like them as brothers :/

[orionsangel86]

So, after a long conversation with super-powerful-queen-slaynna, whom you can thank for me sending this message, so like... if you like it good, if you don't blame them, I do want to apologize for assuming you were saying people can't talk about Destiel, its shippers and how much they dislike it in their group chats. That's what the post came off to me, as if you were policing what people could and couldn't say in these GC about Destiel. Slaynna made me realiza that you meant your post as a 1/2

warning to Destiel shippers who might wander into them. I understand this, because whenever a Destiel shipper follows me, I make it a point to warn them my blog might not be a positive space for them precisely to avoid this sort of unplesant interactions. It also came off as you were invalidating and dismissing the bad experiences people might have had with misbehaving Destiel shippers, which I'm sure you're nice enough NOT to do. My beef is really not with you, or Tink, or any other Destiel 2/?

meta writer, my beef is with shippers who are genuinely hateful and do hateful things. You simply came off as you didn't believe there are Destiel shippers who do these things at all. That say, I won't apologize for venting to like-minded people about my utter dislike for the ship, because we do in fact do that. But I don't think it's fair you walked in on us at that point and extrapolated that's all we do. BTW there is in fact an Anti-Destiel GC and the irony is, if you had walked into that 3/4

one 24hrs earlier, you would have in fact found people gushing about Megstiel and Sastiel, LMAO. 4/4

...

Okay, I’ll give you pointers for being bold enough to come explain this in my ask box, and I commend @super-powerful-queen-slayyna for reaching out to try to calm the stormy seas. I am most likely not going to make any further comments on that post anyway because it has blown out of control and has escalated into a full blown ship war post which I never wanted when I sent it. It’s now Destiel shippers and my friends trying to defend me or people blatantly calling me names and using unnecessary language which I am not even going to acknowledge or give the time of day as I don’t go in for that sort of childish name calling (unless you count my use of the word bronly but some things I think even we can agree are a necessary evil).

My post was a response to my own hurt and irritation at coming across two GCs, one for Sastiel, and one for Megstiel, which were both recommended to me by Tumblr, which were not tagged as anti-Destiel that I could see, that appeared on the surface to simply be places for people to discuss and squee over those ships. In both GCs I saw nothing but hate and lies and other upsetting comments about Destiel and Destiel shippers. It was extremely disheartening to see that in what on the surface appeared to be safe spaces. Because here’s the thing, these shipper GCs should be safe spaces. I have friends that are multishippers, that like Sastiel (and even the odd few who like Megstiel even though admittedly I don’t anymore.) There are plenty of other people out there in fandom that might like all three ships (I’d imagine those people simply want Cas to have all the love in which case SAME). 

To get one point very clear, I don’t actually care if people hate Destiel. I’m not going to preach to anyone about Destiel unless someone comes to me directly or comes scrolling my blog. I always tag Destiel so anyone who uses Tumblr blacklist should be able to avoid my blog completely. I would never intentionally go looking in an anti Destiel chat group. I’ve seen it all before anyway and it’s the same old arguments that really don’t affect my shipping preferences or my beliefs. 

What annoyed me was that those GCs were not anti Destiel chats. They were Megstiel and Sastiel chats. They were places where impressionable young Megstiel and Sastiel shippers could come across, who have zero feelings towards Destiel, and find themselves being told a bunch of lies and nasty crap about Destiel shippers and the ship. They are places where Destiel shippers who like to ship those other ships too might come across and suddenly find themselves isolated and alienated, which only perpetuates retaliation from those Destiel shippers and potentially causes the hate that you stress is so virulent among Destiel shippers to begin with.

My post was a warning for multishippers who are also Destiel shippers or at least Destiel friendly, that those GCs were being used to spread hate about Destiel. It was also an FYI to the people in those GCs that their hatred was very much public, in case they weren’t aware. I tagged the ships because I wanted people who ship Megstiel and Sastiel to see it, especially if they are Destiel friendly, because yeah, I’d want them to avoid those GCs.

Yes I then got snarky. I claimed that this does kinda prove a point because no Destiel GC that I’ve seen includes a bunch of hate and nastiness aimed at other ships. Sure, there is a high chance that there are hateful Destiel shippers out there. There are certainly a lot of bitter people on Twitter who piss me off when they scream queerbaiting at the writers so yes, of course there are bad eggs. I was shocked that from what I saw, there was no squee or shared theories or excitement about the ships, just page after page of hate aimed at Destiel shippers. So yes, perhaps I happened upon both convos right when those topics cropped up (which would be rather coincidental) and perhaps I had just missed the topics that I was interested in checking out - the theories, the meta, the spec... That’s what I was interested in. Since these GCs are a way to keep a finger on the pulse of what the fandom might be thinking in terms of the show and shipping and I was curious. Believe it or not I actually like to keep an open mind even though Megstiel is something that gives me a bad taste in my mouth ever since I sat myself down and truly thought about it. 

I generalised. I know I shouldn’t have done that, but those GC convos pissed me off. I don’t know a single Destiel shipper who would spend hours of their day just ranting about how awful Megstiel shippers are and how much they hate the pairing. I HAVE debated with friends about the suspected infiltration of the Megstiel ship by Bronlies who are using Meg to get Cas out of the way and to be spiteful towards Destiel shippers. This IS something that has been happening in recent years and I think even you admitted that in one of your replies to my post.

I also wasn’t trying to invalidate your experience with hate. I would never do that. The one thing I will say about anon hate in particular is that you don’t know who it is coming from. I occasionally get anon hate but I certainly don’t immediately assume it’s a w*ncest shipper just because I can’t stand w*ncest. Getting a message in your ask box that says “go kill yourself” is horrible, believe me, I know. But if that’s all it is, you can’t assume the sender was a shipper at all. Unless the message was “I ship Destiel and you can go kill yourself” you just can’t assume. If you have had actual Destiel shippers come and attack and threaten you and send you those messages directly then 1. I am so so sorry because no one deserves that kind of abuse, and 2. I hope you exposed them if you could. Because if there is one thing I have learnt about the Destiel shippers in MY circles, it’s that we find that kind of behaviour completely unacceptable and we WILL call it out from our own side if we see it. 

The reason I have such a high opinion of Destiel shippers being the “nice” people in fandom is simply because I have never seen that kind of behaviour from them. I interact with a lot of people. I have seen Destiel shippers get overly passionate, I have seen them get upset and angry when people lash out at them. I have seen them turn bitter and negative and go off on rants about the show. I have seen them dog pile on an anti’s post to provide evidence against a false claim “Kripke said he’s straight” and I thought it was a bit much... but it wasn’t hate. It was a reaction to years and years and years of being laughed at, called delusional, mocked and ridiculed by all other sides within the fandom. Destiel shippers are desperate for validation. They are desperate to disprove the lies. If people actually listened to us, or read the countless posts that have been written clearly providing evidence and sources to disprove every lie and false claim against Destiel perhaps we wouldn’t be so defensive. That’s what happens when you’ve been gaslighted for 11 years. 

But regardless, I’m not here to get involved in shipping wars. You’ll continue going on hating Destiel, and I will continue going on and, well, not hating, but very much disliking Megstiel in canon (though I have read some very sweet Destiel fics where Meg is Cas’s best friend and enjoyed the characterisations there.) 

My post was never to gatekeep and stop you from ranting about Destiel. Rant away to your hearts content. As I said above I really don’t care if people hate it. All I ask, is that you keep that kind of content in places that are clearly labelled as anti Destiel. So that should a Destiel shipper want to check out a Sastiel or a Megstiel GC, they can do, without feeling completely unwelcome and hated on just for enjoying Dean and Cas’s relationship as well. I really don’t think that’s too much to ask. All it takes is one tag right? Create your Megstiel GC and by all means rant about Destiel in it, but please just tag it as Anti Destiel.

Thank you for reaching out to me and explaining your side of things. I do appreciate it.