#seriously it is my least favorite fandom debate by far

[thelegendofclarke]

People have been saying Sansa tried to force her sister to conform to traditional femininity. Do you know any specific examples of this? I don't remember her ever telling Arya she should wear dresses or embroider or anything like that. Other people like Septa Mordane, Catelyn, even Ned imposed that on Arya but I don't remember Sansa aggressively doing it. She did wish Arya was more like her, but Arya wished Sansa was more like /her/ and Arya isn't vilified for that, so it's unfair that Sansa is.

Ooohhh Anon haha, you are getting into one of my literal least favorite topics here on the lovely tumblr.com: Sansa vs. Arya and the “Sansa Bullied Arya” Discourse™.

I have seen sooo many posts calling Cat, Septa Mordane, and Sansa sexist/misogynists/bullies, ect. I haven’t really seen any of regarding Ned tbh, but I am sure its out there. I try to stay away from it because god I just really hate it, its so terrible and most of the time it makes me so uncomfortable.  I have never seen anything productive ever come from it. 

I didn’t get into the fandom here on tumblr until after I had read the books… I was honestly shocked at how much fandom fixated on this particular issue, and also how polarized the discussion was. We could talk for hours and days and years (because trust me, people have) about the instances where Arya clashes with other characters over the particular issue of femininity. But a vast majority of the time, it either starts as, or turns into, pitting the Stark sisters against each other and/or vilifying one of them and victimizing the other.

Honestly though, I think the issue more comes down to this: how much are you willing to hold these specific characters responsible for the society that they were born into? And how willing are you to blame or vilify them for perpetuating that society?

Westeros is a rigid patriarchy, that is absolutely no secret. Conformity to traditional, prescribed gender roles are all these people know. The discussion around Sansa is the one that usually makes me the most uncomfortable because at the time of most of events most of the discussion is centered around, Sansa is 11 years old. Idk about any one else, but when I was 11 years old I was in the 5th grade and we were doing that paper mache volcano science experiment where you made it ~erupt~ with baking soda and vinegar. I was not exactly interested in questioning prescribed gender roles or dismantling the patriarchy yet. As far as Ned, Cat and Septa Mordane go, I am more willing to hold them more culpable for their criticisms of Arya. But holding Sansa as an 11 year old to the same, and sometimes even greater, levels of culpability than full grown adults in the same situation is something I struggle with.

Sansa and Arya clearly do not have a perfect relationship, and often times its downright acrimonious; but imo, it���s also clear how their relationship became that way. Arya’s feelings of resentment of Sansa are understandable, because Arya has been criticized and degraded and made to feel inferior because she cannot, and does not want to, fit into Westerosi social norms and mores; everything from her looks, to her inclinations, to her hobbies, to the way she prefers to dress has been labeled “abnormal” and “unladylike.” Sansa’s inability to understand Arya is also reasonable because Sansa sees her role and what she’s been taught to do and to be as natural; she doesn’t think to question the way things are done or the people teaching and praising her. Sansa can’t relate to or sympathize with Arya’s frustrations any more that Arya can relate to or appreciate Sansa’s interests. They might as well be speaking completely different languages

Both Sansa and Arya were screwed over and let down, time and time again, by their society and the adults in their lives who created and encouraged miscommunications and hostility between them. Sansa and Arya could possibly have had a much more amicable relationship without, just for some examples, the influence of Septa Mordane, who fostered much of the resentment between the sisters. Or Ned, who held them to such different and inconsistent standards and expectations. Or Cat, who tried to hold Arya to Sansa’s example which Arya views as an impossible standard to reach. Or all three adults using comparisons to Sansa as a mechanism to shame and criticize Arya, making her feel insecure. However, all three adults are still operating in a patriarchy and they are (however unfairly) trying to teach Arya to do the same. For Septa Mordane that was her entire job description: to teach young girls to be Good Ladies as defined by patriarchal standards. They simply don’t know any other way to be. And they also know that not only failure and refusal to comply with, but downright rebellion against, said standards won’t make Arya’s life any easier going forward. Yes, there are notable exceptions in canon like Brienne of Tarth and the Mormonts; but they are just that: exceptions. Conformity and compliance is the rule.

So if you need something/one to vilify, vilify The Fucking Patriarchy tbh. It is Westerosi society, and its so deeply and violently indoctrinated patriarchal standards and values, that causes so much tension in these particular instances and between these characters. Sansa and Arya are children who are products of (and also at the mercy of) their environment. But if you get rid of the pervasive, toxic sexism and misogyny that dominated Westeros, their childish sibling arguments would not have progressed and would have been resolved or forgotten probably as quickly as they started. And in many cases, the cause for disagreement or hostility wouldn’t have even been present at all.